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North Macedonia Unassessed

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Bulgaria Unassessed

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Words of the Dialect

Are there any specific regional words used in this dialect? PMK1 (talk) 09:25, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Reworked

I've reworked the article a bit, especially the intro. Worded the differences between Bg/Mak less as a dichotomy of facts and more as a difference of perspectives, which it is. I've also reinserted the map. Sure, it's sort of one-sided by explicitly adopting the one perspective rather than the other, but that can be handled by the caption; it's the best we have, and it's the only thing that we can currently show the outside reader to give them an idea of where this f...ing thing lies. Feel free to make a second map showing it also in the context of the Bulgarian dialect divisions. Calls to change the map are misguided, I think, because this map does actually reflect its sources correctly. Yes, the sources do classify the Blagoevgrad parts as part of Macedonian, like it or not, that is one notable viewpoint, so we have no business simple to deny it, as VMORO has tried to do. Apart from that, there was quite a bit of decent material in the article. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:55, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

POV pushing - see section below.

Factual Misrepresentation, Misleading Statements, POV Pushing, Deletion of References

1) Severe factual misrepresentation - you claim "the Bulgarians view the eastern part of the dialect as Bulgarian whereas the Macedonians view the whole dialect as Macedonian", let me remind you:

a) Bulgarians view all Macedonian dialects no matter where (in BG, RoM, GR) as Bulgarian dialects

b) Macedonians view all Macedonian dialects as Macedonian. Factual error.

2) Deletion of intenational references (evidently because you don't like them. Unacceptable. POV Pushing

3) The current international opinion is that the border between BG and MK runs along the border - which replaces the cold-war view that all Slavic dialects in Macedonia are Macedonian - and which in turn replaces the pre-WW2 view that all Slavic dialects in Macedonia are Bulgarian. VMORO 17:09, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

MAP and other POV irredentist pushing

This is indeed the last time I ask you politely to remove and correct the map (not only from this page but from all pages) and to stop pushing disguised POV by "viewed from Macedonian perspective" and the like. Let me remind you because you seem to forget:

1) Before WW2, all Slavic dialects in Macedonia were generally classified as Bulgarian.

2) In the cold-war period (mostly through Friedman's work), all Slavic dialects in Macedonia were generally classified as Macedonian - although this did not apply to the Soviet Union, for example.

3) Now, as profusely referenced, the Slavic dialects in Pirin Macedonia are generally classified as Bulgarian whereas the Slavic dialects in RoM and most of Greek Macedonia are classified as Macedonian. Do not try to push Friedman as an opposite example because he has been working on the topic since the late sixties, however, his cold war theses have fallen into disregard these days - as seen in the references. And I can quote you French Larousse which called Macedonian a dialect of Bulgarian in 2005.

4) Bulgaria continues to claim all Slavic dialects in Macedonia as Bulgarian. Stop misrepresenting the Bulgarian position as you did in the intro of this article.

5) RoM continues to claim all Slavic dialects in Macedonia as Macedonian

Considering the above, we will either follow NPOV and will regard the dialects in Pirin Macedonia as Bulgarian and in RoM and most of Greek Macedonia as Macedonian, which means:

1) The map will be corrected to exclude Pirin Macedonia

2) The Serres-Nevrokop and Maleshevo-Pirin articles will be split into the respective Bulgarian and Macedonian dialects.

3) There will be information about the respective countries' claims but without POV pushing.

OR We can continue pushing POV but this time it will not be only who will be pushing it, it will also be me. If you, based on Macedonian claims and Friedman's cold-war theses can publish maps and call internationally recognized Bulgarian dialects disputed, then I, based on Bulgarian claims, pre-WW2 conceptions and other information like Larousse's for example, can do the same. This will mean:

1) A corresponding map of Bulgarian dialects will be created to include all dialects in RoM and Greek Macedonia.

2) This map will be placed in all articles regarding Slavic dialects in Macedonia.

3) All these articles will be re-worked to reflect Bulgarian claims.

4) The template Bulgarian dialects will be added under all of these articles.

I prefer compromise (because it means less work for me) but I can live with the other option, as well. Irredentism may seem like a fun game to play but it is actually very dangerous and the rocks you throw at others most often hit your own head. Contact me on my talk page if you need more info. I am travelling until Thursday so I probably won't reply until then but I will start re-working all articles on Friday. VMORO 20:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Threatening to start POV-pushing in response to what you think is POV-pushing is the surest way of getting yourself topic-banned. That said, of course you are more than welcome to create a map showing the transitional dialects in their Bulgarian context, if there are such maps published in reliable international linguistic publications. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

So if I get this right - we're relying this POV map (or single-POV map that is) only cause it was published in one 'scientific' book in English? And it is definitely clear and NPOV cause it's in English? BTW did you look at the stuff Lantonov wrote on your talkpage on the case? --Laveol 21:54, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

You mean Lantonov's Stoykov material? No problem with me; if that guy is some kind of authority on Bulgarian dialectology, why not. Do we have material from him that is mappable? There's that Bulgarian dialect atlas, apparently. What about the "Bulgarian" chapters in one or other of the anglophone "Slavic languages" handbooks that have been quoted so often here, wasn't that based on Stoykov too? I can't promise I'll myself be available for doing the graphics though, any time soon. Have fun learning Inkscape :-P Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:15, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I tried and dropped it in 2 or 3 days :) Well, the quoted book is on limited preview on google books as far as I remember which is truly a shame. Stoykov is certainly mappable, there might even be maps based on him - I'll check on this. --Laveol 22:35, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I must be stupid or something, since I see the word BULGARIAN pasted across Pirin. Could somebody please explain what that word means? Not sure, but I think it's classifying Pirin, as opposed to Maleševo, as Bulgarian. I'm probably wrong though, since I'm nowhere near as smart or neutral as user:VMORO. I should probably kill myself since I'll never be a great pure Bulgarian like him, and I don't exist anyway. BalkanFever 04:36, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

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