|
Shortcut
Could someone who really knows his stuff please have a look at this article? It's become something of a coatrack for, well, weird ideas, mainly regarding claims about modern-day ethnic groups being members of the mysterious ten lost tribes. There were several recent edits by someone who, from his website, appears to be a Messianic. Obviously, Messianics have the same right to edit articles that anyone else does, but I reverted one of them because it seemed highly POV, unsourced and apparently OR (although I doubt that it was actually original). I'd be more comfortable with more eyes on that revert as well as attention from some of the more knowledgeable members of this project on the overall article.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Steven J. Anderson (talk • contribs)
IPA fot Zeev Suraski
Could someone provide the IPA for Zeev Suraski, the current article is a bit ridiculous. Thanks, JACOPLANE • 2008-06-27 10:14
Collaboration, trying again
I think this WikiProject has a number of dedicated editors, but at the moment it needs to take more ownership for articles under its aegis. I think we need to set some standards for Judaism articles that could be enshrined into a "style guide" of sorts. Issues that we could cover in such a guide are: (1) Hebrew pronunciation and transliteration, (2) Naming and formatting of personalities associated with Judaism (Maimonides versus Rambam, Vilna Gaon versus Gra versus Eliyahu of Vilna etc), etc.
One thing I believe needs to be discussed centrally is how to present daily Jewish practice. It is fairly straightforward, in an article like Shabbat or Kashrut, to summarise what the Shulchan Aruch and poskim say about a subject, often with substantial supportive material that confirms that this is daily practice amongst the Orthodox. However, for the sake of NPOV we need to mention the official stance of the major other streams of Judaism. That has nothing to do with mutual recognition, but it has everything to do with documenting Jewish religious practice in an encyclopedic fashion.
I'm very keen to hear some responses to this. Once we have set some general article standards it will be relatively easy to apply these to the "highly accessed" Judaism articles about Shabbat, Yom Tov, Kashrut and so on. JFW | T@lk 23:17, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed. Would you like to head up the steering committee? IZAK or somebody tried to establish a standard for transliteration some years back, which prompted some consternation from at least Tomer 05:16, 4 July 2008 (UTC).
I can steer all I can, but we need a boat first (i.e. people willing to participate in this process). I can apply my experience from the medical collaboration of the fortnight, which is a good model that has recently yielded some very good results.
As for transliteration, I think we should primarily use the "neo-sephardi" Israeli spelling with as few diacritics as possible (i.e. the opposite of 1906 JE). JFW | T@lk 05:54, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
- There is already a lot at Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (Hebrew). Jon513 (talk) 08:20, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
I support that policy, and am curious what Tomer thinks about it. Another problem that we need to resolve before setting up a system of collaboration is: how do we address differences between streams of Judaism? For instance, many articles on mitzvot and halachot make it sound like their observance is normative in Judaism. Yet, in practice, Jews belonging to Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist etc communities, as well as those who are unaffiliated, would not adhere to these practices. Rather than the unsourced general chestnuts ("The Reform movement does not regard halacha as normative"), how could we possibly - in an NPOV way - point out that there are variances in adherence to these practices? This goes right to the heart of collaboration of this WikiProject being effective and not fraught with conflict. JFW | T@lk 08:34, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
- It's not just differences between sects, but also between individuals -- even Orthodox -- over what can be classified as an authority, or even the interpretation of English! My point is this: we should be able to state differences in views, and to do so in an historical way. Traditional views, and then newer views and practices. Start with Orthodox, and then include different types of observance today. If we go by history, rather than numbers, then readers will get a fair flow in an unambiguous way, without being confused over what "Judaism" says or does on a particular issue. Conservatism tones down Orthodox practice, Reform rejects it, and Reconstructionism gives it a different rationale -- but they are all trying to modify Orthodoxy, and cannot be properly understood without first listing the traditional (Orthodox) practice that each newer group modifies. Finally, some Orthodoxy is acting in a reactionary way, and driving practice further than it may have been practiced historically. This, TOO, is a modification of the traditional. People argue over what is "right", and cannot appeal to a universally recognized authority. Fortunately, Misplaced Pages doesn't care what is "right" but only what "is." History has been documented. We can still argue over it, but after a while one side will begin to look silly -- and then try to bury history and evidence -- and then, hopefully, others will have an objective basis to step in and say "no, we are documenting, not polemicising."Tim (talk) 09:53, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Tim, what constitutes an accessible reliable source that illustrates Conservative or Reform practice? We are going to have problems with WP:V. JFW | T@lk 13:28, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
- That's a good question. Most of my experience is Orthodox. I've SEEN Reform Responsa, but have no idea how authoritative it is to that group. I would suspect that Conservative and Reform Jews would be able to answer questions about their resources, though. Everyone goes by something, don't they?Tim (talk) 13:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
I have a few preliminary remarks regarding Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (Hebrew)... first off, it is internally inconsistent. Why, for example, does it prefer "Rehovot" over Rehoboth, but not "Yerushalayim" over Jerusalem? Second, why, other than the fact that Ashkenazim don't know how to distinguish them, does it deprecate ˁ, th and q for `ayin, thav and qof? unless...Third, this guideline really is only a guideline for article naming, rather than for spellings within articles...? Tomer 00:29, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
C-Class?
Has this project decided to use the new C-Class rating or not? If yes, I could adjust the project banner to accomodate it. Also, I am curious as to whether the members of this project might be interested in kind of reviving the various dormant Judaism projects by perhaps adding parameters to the existing WikiProject Judaism template similar to those in use in the Template:ChristianityWikiProject. Doing so would allow editors whose primary interest is a certain field of Judaism to perhaps concentrate their attention on that field a bit easier. Anyway, let me know your decisions. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 19:36, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Moses Citations Needed
Hey folks-
Moses's GA review is on hold pending the addition of some citations. I'm going through and trying to find as many as I can, but there are a few that are eluding me. If anyone knows of reliable sources for the following statements, PLEASE add them ASAP. Thanks!
- According to Genesis 46:11, Amram's father Kohath immigrated to Egypt with 70 of Jacob's household, making Moses part of the second generation of Israelites born during their time in Egypt.
- Many scholars today view the Habiru as members of a social underclass of people present throughout the Ancient Near East at this time, rather than a tribal group confined to Egypt.
Thanks! L'Aquatique 05:10, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- Can't "According to Genesis" use Genesis as a reference? Gary King (talk) 05:12, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- I agree but I think the concern was that the Bible is considered a primary source and the request from the reviewer was for secondary sources? I'm not sure, but I'll add that ref for now until we can get a better one. L'Aquatique 05:15, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- My apologies but I'm not exactly familiar with the book of Genesis; however, if the statement you're referencing says that Genesis states this, and then you use Genesis as a reference, then you're essentially saying "Genesis says this; take a look at Genesis then you will see it says this." And I don't see a problem with that? Gary King (talk) 05:22, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- As I said, I agree with you. I have added the citation. I'm merely noting that the reviewer has stated that he is looking for secondary sources. Part of the problem is a communication difficulty between me and the reviewer, who is not a native English speaker. Anyway... L'Aquatique 05:30, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- Okay; I'm just not clear on whether you have communicated this to the reviewer or not... I will take a looksee now. Gary King (talk) 05:33, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- Habiru. As referenced in the Habiru article, this seems to be covered fairly well in Carol A. Redmount, 'Bitter Lives: Israel in and out of Egypt' in The Oxford History of the Biblical World, ed: Michael D. Coogan, (Oxford University Press: 1999), p.72 (Google Books)
- Note that, contrary to the implication in the Moses article, the Amarna letters describe the Habiru as random mercenaries, rather than organised invaders; nor do the letters identify them as emanating from Egypt. Jheald (talk) 19:20, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Because this issue comes up often and can be a source of contention, I am proposing adding a paragraph to the existing WP:NPOV/FAQ#religion with a more careful and clearer explanation of language to use and how to present the subject to implement WP:NPOV in articles involving disputes between religious views and historians/scientists etc. Doubtless the proposal can be improved. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 22:31, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Reference desk questions help
I asked some fairly basic Hebrew questions on the Misplaced Pages language reference desk on July 20, and most of the questions are still unanswered. Could someone please help? I would really appreciate it! :) —Lowellian (reply) 08:21, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Biblical archeology
Eyeballs needed for the work of Écrasez l'infâme (talk · contribs), who has put pretty much the same content on a number of Bible-related articles, such as David, Solomon, Bible, Biblical archaeology and Ten Commandments. While sources are provided, and the perspective is valid, I have significant problems with the tone of these contributions and was wondering what the feeling of other contributors was. JFW | T@lk 16:42, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- This editor seems to have gotten hold of the TRUTH™ and is bludgeoning a number of articles with it. Contributions along these lines must be clearly labeled as one significant point of view in about a sentence or so. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 18:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- (ec) Looks to me that the content seeks to characterize an entire, broad field from a few sources. While the sources are useful, it's not clear that they reflect a consensus within the discipline(s), so they should be contextualized by Misplaced Pages if possible. I agree with you about the tone, but at first glance it seems the editor is being responsive. Is that right? HG | Talk 18:50, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- The editor's primary source, Israel Finkenstein, is a proponent of the minimalist school of Biblical archaeology. While minimalism isn't a fringe theory, it hasn't gained wide acceptance. The editor is making the minimalist theory sound much more authoritative than it is. Broad statements about what "extensive archaeological research" has found are inappropriate in any case, since there is no unanimity in the field of Biblical archaeology. — ] (] · ]) 19:15, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Technically, Finkelstein isn't a minimalist - he's not with P.R. Davies and the Copenhagen school, who are skeptical that anything in the Bible pre-dates the post-exilic neo-Babylonian period. Rather, he's pretty much middle-of-the-road for a secular academic archaeologist not driven by faith or patriotism - compare Bill Dever for example; though Finkelstein has perhaps been a bit more outspoken than most about the lack of economic development of Judah at the time of the supposed United Monarchy, and lack of evidence on the ground to support Biblical accounts of David and Solomon. Jheald (talk) 23:05, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- I put the following on the talk page for Bible:
The material you added is not factual. It's argumentation. Argumentation based on reliable sources, true, but still argumentation. It's sufficient to say that this or that source has concluded that no material evidence has been found (not "does not exist", since you can't prove a negative) to substantiate many parts of the biblical historical narrative. Going point by point the way you're doing is unnecessary. -LisaLiel (talk) 19:50, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
I am getting quite a constructive response from this editor, so perhaps we can work something out. Be prepared to take issue with contentious statements though—it is years since I last looked at Biblical archaeology. JFW | T@lk 20:42, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
P'tcha needs your help
Anybody care to improve P'tcha? Article is currently very stubby indeed. -- 201.17.36.246 (talk) 18:45, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- So are numerous other Misplaced Pages articles. Have you got a good source on the subject? JFW | T@lk 20:43, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- I certainly don't, which is exactly why I asked if anyone else had anything. Also, "other stuff exists" is generally considered a very bad argument. -- 201.17.36.246 (talk) 01:13, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
- I hope you're not implying that an AfD would be in order. Oh Pshaw, don't delete P'tcha. It's Jewish material culture and cuisine at its
most edible. HG | Talk 03:16, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
- Reliable apikoros source here. <joke> And quasi-reliable nativist journalisticial source. HG | Talk 03:32, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
- Anon, rather than lecturing me on arguments to avoid (which applies primarily to deletion discussions) I wanted to know if you had a source but you were unsure on how to work it into the article. JFW | T@lk 06:22, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
- Are we allowing personal testimony on this one? HG | Talk 22:30, 22 July 2008 (UTC) <wink>
- No. Nooooo. JFW | T@lk 22:53, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- This just in: "it tastes horrible" added to list of good deletion arguments... :D L'Aquatique 03:21, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
- After one week of intensive collaboration by our WikiProject on P'tcha, it's somewhat disappointing to see that I am the only editor to have added to the article. Aside from awarding me a special barnstar, what else can be done to improve p'tcha besides adding lots of chrain? HG | Talk 11:22, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- HG just got his barn starred. JFW | T@lk 14:23, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Template:Halakha vs Template:Jewish life vs Template:Judaism
Recently, User Xyz7890 (talk · contribs) created Template:Halakha. I have left the following message on his user page and asked that a discussion about this be started here for more input: "You recently created Template:Halakha but it is probelematic because ultimately all the 613 Mitzvot fit into Halachah one way or another, and the new template you created would duplicate much of Template:Jewish life and Template:Judaism. Before commencing a vote to merge Template:Halakha into Template:Jewish life I would like to get your views on the matter and see if we get can some input from other Judaic editors." What do others think? Thanks. IZAK (talk) 06:57, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that {{Halakha}} is going to be monstrous if populated with all articles about halachic subjects. I haven't seen {{Infobox Halacha}} used a lot but it has some potential. {{Jewish life}} actually has the same problems as {{Halakha}} and should probably be renamed "Life events in Judaism" with removal of items pertaining to the holidays and general observances.
- The general gist is that we need to integrate Judaism content, and I admire Xyz7890's attempts at doing this. I have now twice suggested that we start a regular collaboration, similar to other collaborations as listed in {{COTWs}}; I have the pleasure of running the forthnightly medical collaboration, which has recently thrown off some excellent work including a bunch of good articles. JFW | T@lk 08:20, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
- Hi JFW: I think it would be beneficiel if you and User Xyz7890 (talk · contribs) had a meeting of the minds since right now he is the one that is "hot on the trail" of his new {{Halakha}} project. IZAK (talk) 10:07, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
- I commented on the template talk page. Gist: I like the idea of a template if it can be matched up with our effort to set up the Category:Jewish law better. I assume discussion should continue there. Thanks. HG | Talk 10:34, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I am posting the following here from User talk:IZAK#More templates about Judaism that should not be duplicated
(copied from my talk page)
Hi again, Xyz7890: See Template talk:Judaism#Duplication of other templates for many other Judaic and Torah-connected templates, especially: {{Jewish and Israeli holidays}} ; {{Jewish life}} . Thanks. IZAK (talk) 07:11, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I have found that these templates are confusing, and really need to be split. Judaism is not a single category, but is a lot of smaller ones.
I have already created a few Judaism templates, including {{Shabbat}}, {{High Holidays}}, and {{Jewish prayers}}. I have been planning one on Sukkot for the future.
Having one for all the holidays is overwheling. Each major holiday has several categories within, as you can see with these and {{Passover Footer}}. Some of the other ones, like {{Jews and Judaism}} and {{Jewish life}} are too broad, and those are the ones I am concerned about that eventually should be broken down.
The {{Halakha}} one is not complete yet; gradually I am finding more articles and categories for it, though I am omitting it from pages found on the templates of Shabbat and the various holidays. It is more geared to halakha pertaining areas not covered in other templates. Xyz7890 (talk) 20:19, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
- Hi Xyz7890: Thanks for responding at length. You are missing the point of the general templates. Obvioulsy each topic and aspect of the Mitzvos can be extended in a million directions, because the Torah and its contents are after all infinite. But by reducing the templates to the level of the articles you miss the point that broader templates provide a broader context. In addition, you are creating templates when there are already CATEGORIES and even LISTS for many of the subjects you mention, and it makes no sense that there should be templates that function as "in-your face" templates crowding each page. You must study how articles are to be written and structured and eventually split up if too large, the purposes and use of lists and categories, and the nature and need of templates, none of which should duplicate each other. Hope this helps. Do not be too rash, but seek consensus. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 08:23, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Moshe David Tendler
I'd never heard of Moshe David Tendler till I encountered a related request here. (Here's my response.) The person making the request may have a valid point, but he's not (yet) its best advocate: there's all sorts of unencyclopedic and BLP-problematic allegations on the article's talk page. I know nothing of this subject matter, so invite one or two people here to take a look. -- Hoary (talk) 10:10, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. What parts do you consider unencyclopedic or otherwise problematic? Please give the text or the diff on the article talk page. Thanks again. HG | Talk 15:11, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Remaining: When it comes flatulance , you leave the authors questionable claim and merely ask for a source. And recently deleted. NB this project page will not remain on my watchlist. -- Hoary (talk) 00:27, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, well it sounds like we don't need so much this Project but rather an admin intervention. Thanks. HG | Talk 00:49, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- Let me see what I can do. L'Aquatique 02:04, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Haredi Judaism and Orthodox Judaism merger discussions
Please see: Talk:Haredi Judaism#Merger Proposal and add your views. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 12:58, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Please join a discussion on the following on WT:Naming conventions (Hebrew)
Earlier today, an editor renamed the Mechitza article Mehitza on grounds that the change is required by this naming conventions guideline. Some questions:
- Is this really a guideline? Did it ever get consensus in the relevant part of a community, or was it labeled a guideline on agreement of a small number of users? I'm not going to change the status without discussion but I'd like to know what the community thinks.
- Should it be clarified that it doesn't apply to this type of case? The general WP:Naming conventions guideline says to use the term most commonly used in English based on general rather than specialized use. A guideline that imposes a specific standardized transliteration scheme based on specialist opinion resulting in commonly-used words being spelled in unused and possibly unrecognizable ways would seem to go against the spirit of the guideline. The main guideline reflects a philosophy that because article names are the way users look up subjects, they need to reflect the search terms (and spellings) actual users are most likely to employ in their searches. Given this situation, I personally don't think an approach that bases article names on any standardized spelling method not reflecting actual English use is consistent with the overall guideline. Such an approach may be permissable for words that have almost never been spelled in English, but I don't think Misplaced Pages's overall WP:Naming conventions guideline makes it a permissable option for words that have tens of thousands of ghits, regularly appear in English-language newspaper articles, and show other evidence of common use in English. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 02:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
- Mechitza outgoogles Mehitza by a factor 8 at least. That should be allowed to override our own internal guidelines. It says at the top that it's a DRAFT. Furthermore, I'm not sure if that guideline ever went through a full consensus-seeking process (I would have grumbled at the use of "h" for "ח", which I regard as phonenically incorrect and lazy). JFW | T@lk 05:40, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
I have proposed this template for deletion in accordance with Misplaced Pages's deletion policy. Please see the discussion at Misplaced Pages:Templates for deletion/Log/2008 July 30. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 14:22, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
- "There is no archeological evidence, therefore the Bible must be false". Automatically fails the fallacy of negative proof. JFW | T@lk 14:35, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
- There is a similar template, Template:In-religion-universe, also nominated for deletion by Shirahadasha. At least the template page says it is. I couldn't find the relevant discussion at the TFD page. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:35, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I hope that some of you will be willing to help out on the Judaism section of Gender of God.
A certain editor has chosen to label reliable sources (Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan and Jewfaq.com) as "opinion pieces" and relegate them to the bottom of the section, while placing things like the Reconstructionist siddur that uses feminine pronouns for God at the beginning.
When I moved these sources to the beginning of the section yesterday, this editor simply reverted my edit without comment and an edit war ensued. I should have asked for help at the time, but I (unwisely) chose to revert his reversion. By the end of the day, the other two editors had reverted the article six times between them, and I'd unreverted it as many times myself, resulting in a block which has been lifted after I promised not to do that any more. Fair enough.
However, this morning, the editor in question had reverted my edit for a seventh time, and I'm trying to pursue dispute resolution in order to prevent misrepresentation of the Jewish view. I'm asking editors who are part of the Judaism WikiProject to come and help. I have no problem with modern feminist views being represented in the section, but I'm trying to preserve the traditional Jewish view as well. Thanks in advance for your help. -LisaLiel (talk) 12:16, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
|
