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Revision as of 17:54, 19 September 2005

• Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive1
• Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive2
• Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive3
• Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive4
• Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive5

If you're here to have a look because of the RfC, please read archives 3, 4 and 5 first, thank you.

Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette#How to avoid abuse of Talk pages states:

• Use the Talk pages to discuss the accuracy/inaccuracy, POV bias, or other problems in the article, not as a soapbox for advocacy.

Repeating the same arguments over and over are pointless as this matter is now in the hands of the Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee where it will be resolved. - Ted Wilkes 17:31, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Under the circumstances, I endorse Ted Wilkes' interpretation of soapbox. 141's most recent contributions have been an unabated continuation of the same repeated and wholly unsupported (either by WP consensus or the documented historical record) tabloid-style assertions which have already been very lengthily discussed and rejected by every editor who looked into them. Readers can follow the entire discussion in the archives. Wyss 17:48, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

OK. Would you please discuss these passages from Priscilla Presley's book, a source you seem to have accepted as most reliable:

What Priscilla Presley says about Elvis's sex-life

In her book, Elvis and me, Priscilla Presley relates that Elvis was not overtly sexual towards her:

• She says that he gently and tenderly began to touch her and that she was drunk with ecstasy. Then, as on several occasions before when they had reached this point, he stopped and said, "Let me decide when it should happen. It's a very sacred thing to me. It always has been. You know that I want it to be something to look forward to. It keeps the desire there." After this Priscilla sat up in anger and Elvis told her that he didn't make love to his girlfriend Anita the whole four years he went with her. "What about me?" Priscilla lamented. "How long do you think this can go on? God, Elvis, that takes a lot of willpower. That's asking a lot of another person, one who's in love and has strong, healthy desires." Elvis says, "I'm not saying we can't do other things. It's just the actual encounter. I want to save it." Finally, Priscilla resigned herself to the long wait. "Instead of consummating our love in the usual way, he began teaching me other means of pleasing him. We had a strong connection, much of it sexual. The two of us created some exciting and wild times."
• Priscilla also says that sexual temptations were against everything Elvis was striving for. She emphasizes that "he did not wish to betray me, the girl waiting for him at home who was preparing to be his wife. He felt guilty and confused about his natural reaction to female advances and I believe that this was his greatest fear when it came to marriage." He even said one night before they went to bed, "you're going to have to be pretty understanding these next few weeks, or however long it takes. I feel that I have to withdraw myself from the temptations of sex." This Priscilla could not understand. Elvis said, "We have to control our desires so they don't control us. If we can control sex, then we can master all other desires." When they were in bed, Elvis took the usual dose of sleeping pills, and then he pored over his metaphysical books.

In my opinion, these passages strongly suggest that Elvis had severe problems with his sex-life as far as his sexual relationships with women were concerned. I think that the discussion was not finished and is still open, though it seems as if my opponents try to suppress it, as they have deleted my contribution. Any other opinions? Onefortyone 17:55, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Seriously, 141, is English your native language? Wyss 18:38, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

English is not my native language, but when I was younger I have travelled extensively, living in the USA for some years. Do you have problems with this fact? Onefortyone 18:41, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

I thought so. Although your (very limited and somewhat stilted) usage of English grammar is nominally correct, you make syntax errors (as I have bolded above in your latest reply) and IMHO you do seem to encounter steep challenges when trying to interpret (much less twist) the nuances of English language text. Wyss 18:54, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

There are lots of people from foreign countries contributing relevant material to innumerable Misplaced Pages articles, and there are many native speakers here who are able to correct grammatical or syntax errors as the one above, etc. I do not think that this is of much importance to the present discussion concerning the claims that Elvis may have had homosexual leanings. ;) Onefortyone 19:14, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about fixing up grammar and syntax mistakes in articles at all, but I guess your response does show the troubles you seem to have comprehending English text and sources (along with the many other issues now being discussed in the arbitration concerning you). Wyss 19:43, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

I do not think that I have trouble as you suggest. Most sources which support the view that Elvis had affairs with men are written by English and American writers. Their texts usually do not include grammar or syntax errors. Onefortyone 20:19, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

As I said, that's not at all what I'm talking about. You might try re-reading my posts in this thread. I do understand that your limitations in comprehending written English might make this difficult for you, especially when combined with the narrow focus of your agenda here. Wyss 20:53, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Is this a personal attack? I think so. Onefortyone 21:02, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

If you think what I said was a personal attack, that's only another example of your problems reading written English. So far as I can see, your contributions are a result of either lack of comprehension, willful distortion and fabrication, or both. Let's let the arbitration settle it. Wyss 21:20, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Weeks ago you accused me of being David Bret. Last week you said that I am the sockpuppet of a Misplaced Pages administrator. Now you seem to have changed your tactics in order to denigrate my contributions. These strategies are all too transparent to every unbiased reader. Onefortyone 09:14, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I have no tactics other than to comment on the malicious effects of your edits. IMHO only money could motivate anyone to spend so much time on such unsupportable edits and this has made others ponder the possibility you're David Bret. Your adroitness in following (and your familiarity with) WP policy, which you use to mock and abuse the encyclopedia, along with other stuff I won't mention here, indicate you have a regular WP username (that of an admin, as it happens), ironic since you tend to accuse people who don't accept your sources of being sockpuppets of others who don't accept your sources. Finally, you do seem to have subtle problems with the comprehension of nuance in written English. My remarks have been consistent. Please stop vandalizing Misplaced Pages. Wyss 15:20, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Summary of the argument for newcomers

Here is basically what's going on: a user called Onefortyone tries to change Google results of "Elvis gay", so that those results lead to a book by David Bret. Bret is a sensationalist writer who is said to be "careless with facts". To support 141's point of view that Elvis was gay, he gives the following sources:

1) A book by David Bret 2) An unpublished manuscript by Elvis' stepmother 3) An article in the National Enquirer 4) A photograph of Elvis and some famous gay guy, which supposedly demonstrates Elvis' homosexuality.

An overwhelming consensus of editors here ( many of whom really dislike each other ) have agreed that all those sources are worth zero. Onefortyone often tries to make the point that his POV is suppressed because of us and the Elvis community as a whole. This is not true, though: my only contribution to the Elvis article was to mention the wide-spread belief that he died of constipation ( obviously, I'm not an Elvis fan ). The fact is most of us don't even like Elvis, but we feel that we have to take a stand against misuse of Misplaced Pages for financial purposes ( messing with Google searches ).

So far, the argument is still not resolved and the article ought to still be "protected". (129.241.134.241 16:26, 17 September 2005 (UTC))

You should have added that there are many more sources I have provided to support the claims that Elvis had homosexual leanings:

5) An article of 1957 mentioned in The Guardian which claims that Elvis and gay entertainer Liberace were boyfriends.

6) A book on Elvis by the singer's second cousin, Earl Greenwood, published in 1990 and confirming that Elvis's had a sexual relationship with Nick Adams.

7) A play by Lee Hall alluding to Presley's homosexuality.

8) An article in PROMETHEUS, the Internet Bulletin for Art, Politics and Science, No. 90 (Winter 2003), dealing with Elvis's homosexuality.

9) A report in The Guardian which states that director Bryan Forbes once asked Mick Jagger if he "could confirm whether Elvis was gay."

10) Several Elvis fan sites and discussion boards dealing with the claims that Elvis may have been gay or bisexual.

The more you research, the more sources you will find.

I do not think that the independent sources (published books, articles in reputed magazines, reviews, websites) supporting the view that Elvis was gay or bisexual "are worth zero," as you claim. I still think that Professor David S. Wall is right when he says that one of the strategies of the worldwide Elvis industry is " 'community policing' to achieve governance at a distance and typically effected through the various fan clubs and appreciation societies to which the bulk of Elvis fans belong. These organisations have, through their membership magazines, activities and sales operations, created a powerful moral majority that can be influenced in order to exercise its considerable economic power." Your contributions are the best examples of the truth of these words, though you may claim not to be part of this Elvis industry. Where is the critical paragraph on the world-wide Elvis industry I have contributed? Where is the theater section discussing plays relating to Elvis? Onefortyone 00:10, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

As I've said repeatedly, "independent" is not relevant to "credible," "reliable" or "encyclopedic." Wyss 16:34, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Theater section

There should be a theater section in the article where plays relating to Elvis are discussed. One of these theatrical performances is Cooking With Elvis by Lee Hall. According to reviewer Rich See, this play

is a production where every scene is filled with both pathos and humor. It's a dark comedy with a light heart and flows well except when there is a sudden change in Elvis' monologues. It's at this point when Singing Elvis becomes Reverend Elvis and starts making bizarre speeches about sodomites that the play begins to wear thin. While this is probably in reference to the gay rumors that continue to swirl around the King of Rock and Roll -- his obsession with James Dean and an alleged affair with actor Nick Adams -- unless you are an Elvis aficionado or gay man, you probably won't know anything about this part of the Elvis mystique. All in all, Cooking With Elvis is a three or four joke comedy that's very dark and exceedingly funny but 30 minutes too long.

See Are there any other plays relating to Elvis? These could also be listed and discussed in this new paragraph. Onefortyone 00:23, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Please note that 141's references to James Dean and Nick Adams, even in the context of this single play, appear to be unsupported PoV. Wyss 16:28, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Other claims

Greil Marcus, in the book, Double Trouble: Bill Clinton and Elvis Presley in a Land of No Alternatives (2000), refers to Dee Presley's National Enquirer "explosion" discussing her claim that Elvis and his mother were lovers. Marcus writes,

About his mother, it's said"—Gladys Presley, who died in 1958, at forty-six, after, if Dee Presley is right, years of bliss with Elvis in her bed, or she in his. "It makes sense," said Adrian Sibley of the BBC's The Late Show. "America has brought Elvis up to date: now he needs therapy just like everybody else. Don't they have twelve-step programs for incest survivors?" "It makes sense," said Jip Golsteijn, pop critic for the Amsterdam Telegraaf. "It's what I heard again and again in Tupelo, years ago. Nobody meant it as a condemnation. Given the way Elvis and Gladys were about each other, it was simply the conclusion everyone drew."

Should this be included in the Elvis article? Just a question. Onefortyone 09:17, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

The Dee Presley material is thoroughly discussed (as discredited and in some senses non-existent) in the talk archives. The rumours about EP and his mother are unsubstantiated so I don't see how they could be helpful in an encyclopedia article. Wyss 16:33, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Verification of your assertion(s) by User:Onefortyone:

I, User:Ted Wilkes, left the following message on User Talk:Onefortyone:

To User:Onefortyone/Anon 80,141. et al:

• You inserted on the Talk:Elvis Presley page this edit that stated as fact the following:
  • "In his book, The Boy who would be King: An Intimate Portrait of Elvis Presley by his Cousin (1990), Earl Greenwood, Elvis's second cousin who paled around with Elvis for many years before and after his success, says that Elvis had a affair with Nick Adams."

- I decided to invest a $1.15, and ordered a copy of "The Boy Who Would Be King : An Intimate Portrait of Elvis Presley By His Cousin" by Earl Greenwood from here. Would you please provide the direct quote from the book and the page number so I can verify your assertion. Thank you.

- Ted Wilkes 17:54, 19 September 2005 (UTC)