| Revision as of 05:23, 20 September 2005 editSurfingslovak (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users1,163 edits →difficulty understanding: link to Excel spreadsheet← Previous edit | Revision as of 09:31, 20 September 2005 edit undoSurfingslovak (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users1,163 edits summary of 1910 - 2000 census tabulation findingsNext edit → | ||
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| I have tried to explain it to you as simply as I can, but the point you are seem to be unable to understand is that the data must either mention various alternatives (which I tried to express by the XY - YW ranges, but which in reality is impossible because you, unlike me, are unable to provide a source covering all countries of the world in the same manner) or they have to be compatible. If they are to be compatible, then either we use official data only (but then the problem is that in many countries Slovaks are not registered) or we use estimates. If we use estimates then again it is extremely important to use the same approach everywhere - note the "illogicality" (is that a term?:) ) of your statement above: you require US census data, but then you require not to use SK census data, but to use estimates ...This is not how demographic data work. Another question: What source (please name it) says that there are 5.7 m Slovaks in the world?? I have no problem to name it as an alternative, but the data in the table must be, as I said, compatible, otherwise the whole table is useless, because it makes a huge difference (of millions of persons) how "Slovak" is defined. Take Hungary for example: officially there are 17000 Slovaks, but 70 000 people admit to have Slovak as mother tongue. This means that there are at least 70 000 Slovaks in reality (because no other person speaks Slovak in Hungary, except for say 50 translators). Therefore I have used this source (assembled by an American/Canadian Slovak), which uses the same approach for all countries (it is the only such estimate I know). And as for US, this is exactly the definition question: Slovaks are well known for "denying" their nationality very quickly after leaving Slovakia (after all, that's why they leave the country in many cases especially if they go to countries like USA) - believe me, it is just impossible that 1 million Slovaks out of 1.8 millions disappear or "stop to be ethnically what they have been 10 years ago". Assuming that there are no technological distortions in the US census, they just redefined themselves as Americans, that's all. Therefore, the 1.2 estimate is a very good one (between the 0.8 and 1.8). And we could go on like this with other countries...] 22:50, 19 September 2005 (UTC) | I have tried to explain it to you as simply as I can, but the point you are seem to be unable to understand is that the data must either mention various alternatives (which I tried to express by the XY - YW ranges, but which in reality is impossible because you, unlike me, are unable to provide a source covering all countries of the world in the same manner) or they have to be compatible. If they are to be compatible, then either we use official data only (but then the problem is that in many countries Slovaks are not registered) or we use estimates. If we use estimates then again it is extremely important to use the same approach everywhere - note the "illogicality" (is that a term?:) ) of your statement above: you require US census data, but then you require not to use SK census data, but to use estimates ...This is not how demographic data work. Another question: What source (please name it) says that there are 5.7 m Slovaks in the world?? I have no problem to name it as an alternative, but the data in the table must be, as I said, compatible, otherwise the whole table is useless, because it makes a huge difference (of millions of persons) how "Slovak" is defined. Take Hungary for example: officially there are 17000 Slovaks, but 70 000 people admit to have Slovak as mother tongue. This means that there are at least 70 000 Slovaks in reality (because no other person speaks Slovak in Hungary, except for say 50 translators). Therefore I have used this source (assembled by an American/Canadian Slovak), which uses the same approach for all countries (it is the only such estimate I know). And as for US, this is exactly the definition question: Slovaks are well known for "denying" their nationality very quickly after leaving Slovakia (after all, that's why they leave the country in many cases especially if they go to countries like USA) - believe me, it is just impossible that 1 million Slovaks out of 1.8 millions disappear or "stop to be ethnically what they have been 10 years ago". Assuming that there are no technological distortions in the US census, they just redefined themselves as Americans, that's all. Therefore, the 1.2 estimate is a very good one (between the 0.8 and 1.8). And we could go on like this with other countries...] 22:50, 19 September 2005 (UTC) | ||
| :Perhaps you should look at the US census data more carefully - I have imported Table #2 from the 2000 US census and have there seem to be a few discrepancies. I have also tabulated the census data all the way back to 1910 and it seems highly unlikely that there were more than 1 million Americans of Slovak heritage at any point of time. Of particular interred: the 1980 census and the 2000 census both list people of Slovak ancestry at 700 to 800,000. In the light of all this, the 1990 census must contain some aberration. ] 09:31, 20 September 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :Perhaps you should look at the US census data more carefully - have 15 million of German Americans really vanished during the 90s? And how about 8 million Irish Americans? Why did the number of people claiming an "European" ancestry swell in the same timeframe? And what's with the "Western European" and "White" ancestry? | |||
| :Anecdotally, I know of people who were born to Slovak parents early in the 20th century and have recently passed away. And for some reason, you won't run into any recent arrivals from the countries of former ] here either. Does the ] publish any numbers on the expatriate community? These people have to apply for their passports somehow, which usually involves declaration of their current place of residence. | |||
| :] 00:03, 20 September 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::I have imported Table #2 from the 2000 US census and have to say that I don't like the results - to say the least. If you add up all the 1990 ancestries you'll get 296 million, over 50 million more than the total 1990 US population. This could be because people could legitimately select several ancestries. For 2000, all ancestries add up to 287 million, or roughly 10 million less then in 1990. Meanwhile the total US population has increased by about 40 million to 280 million. | |||
| ::This could imply that fewer people have selected several ancestries and opted for such generics as "European" or "White". Also, virtually all ancestries mentioned in the 1990 census example (marked by a "1") seems to exhibit inflated numbers in 1990. Inclusion in the list of examples seems to be statistically significant - as if some people mindlessly copied things onto their questionnaire. | |||
| ::I'd say that this makes the US census numbers a bit suspect, wouldn't you agree? However, this does not mean that the the 1990 figure for people of Slovak ancestry was accurate either. ] 04:51, 20 September 2005 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 09:31, 20 September 2005
diaspora
I'd like to open discussion on the term diaspora. When I first saw this article I felt quite uneasy about the terms applied to people of Slovak heritage. It's a very diverse group, and the term emigrant, migrant or even Slovak abroad might not correctly reflect their individual situation and shouldn't be applied collectively and broadly to everyone.
I believe that the term Slovak abroad is bound to be POVish, since it implies that the person has some form of active relationship with the present-day Slovak Republic or has declared himself or herself to be Slovak, which might not include the descendants of people born in Slovakia or other individuals of Slovak heritage, sometimes several generations removed from the country of their ancestors.
If you look up the term diaspora, you'll find that it has been used successfully for the Jewish community living outside of their historical homeland. There are other Misplaced Pages articles (Irish Diaspora), which use this term as well. Please note that diaspora does not imply that this group of people has to reside in the US or that they are Jewish.
However, since it's an English term and hence its present usage was quite likely coined in the US due to its predominance in the last few decades, it might seem unfamiliar to e.g. the Slovak disapora in GermanyJbetak 01:24, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
- Short answer: diaspora is an emotionally "stigmatized" term that is not used for all nations, but above all it refers only to those more or less FORCED to go abroad, which does not hold for all Slovaks living abroad. As a result, the sentence could be misunderstood as referring only to this special group Slovaks (plus bearing the unnessary "taint" of "oh, the poor Slovaks far from their beloved homeland"). And "Slovaks abroad" is fully neutral, and it requires a lot of speculation to come to the interpretation you are presenting above....I am not insisting on "Slovaks abroad", but I am insisting that the term "diaspora" not be used.Juro 03:45, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
- Have replaced the 'two version' tempalte with a smaller, less drastic one above the diaspora section. This dispute is not about the whole article but the phrasing of one section.
- By the way, it was my understanding that diaspora is a neutral term for a nation's foreign population. However, the wikipedia diaspora page clearly states that the population had to be forced aborad. For the sake of consistency then, diaspora should only be used if that is the case. Robdurbar 12:44, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
- That was my understanding as well. Especially after reading some outside sources. Although I'm sure we can find satisfactory wording for it, please have a look at
If you look into English monolingual dictionaries, the term never means just "the people outside the borders of the homeland", but the meaning is always somehow restricted, e.g. "far from their homeland", "similar to the Jewish diaspora" etc. So, since the term is not unambiguous, I see no reason to use it for a section with numbers. I am sure you have other proposals...like "outside the borders of Slovakia", for example...Juro 17:18, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
difficulty understanding
The "2 016 000" number is highly outdated. All other people-pages have 2005 statistics. The 2005 estimate dropped to about 1.1-1.4 million Slovaks abroad (probably due to assimilations within other ethnic groups and/or return to Slovakia). Why do we keep reverting the numbers?
We keep the old numbers because they refer to true figures - i.e. to censuses (the next one will be in 5 years). Any other figure is a "double estimate" (of the census results and of the "true" number of Slovak with respect to that number). In addition, the figures are only 1 year old or so (not outdated), your figure is not consistent with them, and I do not believe that the estimates have changed so much over 4 years...So, just tell me your source and we will write: According to XY, the estimate for 2005 is ZW. That's all. Juro 03:35, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
P.S> There has been not mass return to Slovakia (rather the opposite).Juro 03:47, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
Can you consider changing the diaspora estimate? 2 mil is way off from the real number. According to a recent census here 800,000 slovaks live in US with about 200,000 living in Canada. (I'm sure the rest of the world is no more than 100,000.)
That's not my estimate, but the best currently available estimate of Slovak demographers. In this sense, the "accuracy" is out of question. Personal impressions are just personal impressions.Juro 03:14, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Yea, unless the personal impressions aren't personal impressions There are so many nationalists on wikipedia.
797,000 + 120,000 + 100,000 (Latin America) + 50,000 (Serbia) + 100,000 (rest of East Europe) = 1,200,000 + 4,600,000 = 5,800,000
That's a big difference.
Look, I see you have absolutely, but really absolutely no idea what you are doing. You just take any number you see on the internet, but you do not know how they define the nationality, who is the author, whether it is reliable etc. You just know nothing. I have a complete table for all countries with both official numbers and official estimates based on the same principle. You have nothing. There are by no means 100,000 Slovaks in Latin America for example not even by coincidence, that's ridiculous. Also, the number of Slovaks in the US is higher then you think because officially there were as much as 1800000 Slovaks in 1991 and 1000000 Slovaks could not have left the country in 14 years, because there is no place where they could be etc. etc. we could go on like this for every Country. So, just go play elsewhere...Juro 23:46, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Well I'm sorry you feel that way, but I seem to be the only one attaching sources to my numbers. All but one (the Canadian one) are completely credible. I agree with you 100,000 Slovaks living in Lating America is extreme so I used your estimate. How did 1 mil Slovaks disappear in 14 years? Dunno, but they did. We must also realize that the US census includes NON-PRIMARY ancestry. In essence, we could be including people who are only 1/4th Slovak, so lower estimates are all for the better.
If you feel that census numbers arent that reliable then you should be complaining at the Russians page too (which I need some help on btw) Also, there are articles that talk about the underestimation of Gypsies in Slovakia. Maybe we should bring down the 4.6 mil .
I have tried to explain it to you as simply as I can, but the point you are seem to be unable to understand is that the data must either mention various alternatives (which I tried to express by the XY - YW ranges, but which in reality is impossible because you, unlike me, are unable to provide a source covering all countries of the world in the same manner) or they have to be compatible. If they are to be compatible, then either we use official data only (but then the problem is that in many countries Slovaks are not registered) or we use estimates. If we use estimates then again it is extremely important to use the same approach everywhere - note the "illogicality" (is that a term?:) ) of your statement above: you require US census data, but then you require not to use SK census data, but to use estimates ...This is not how demographic data work. Another question: What source (please name it) says that there are 5.7 m Slovaks in the world?? I have no problem to name it as an alternative, but the data in the table must be, as I said, compatible, otherwise the whole table is useless, because it makes a huge difference (of millions of persons) how "Slovak" is defined. Take Hungary for example: officially there are 17000 Slovaks, but 70 000 people admit to have Slovak as mother tongue. This means that there are at least 70 000 Slovaks in reality (because no other person speaks Slovak in Hungary, except for say 50 translators). Therefore I have used this source (assembled by an American/Canadian Slovak), which uses the same approach for all countries (it is the only such estimate I know). And as for US, this is exactly the definition question: Slovaks are well known for "denying" their nationality very quickly after leaving Slovakia (after all, that's why they leave the country in many cases especially if they go to countries like USA) - believe me, it is just impossible that 1 million Slovaks out of 1.8 millions disappear or "stop to be ethnically what they have been 10 years ago". Assuming that there are no technological distortions in the US census, they just redefined themselves as Americans, that's all. Therefore, the 1.2 estimate is a very good one (between the 0.8 and 1.8). And we could go on like this with other countries...Juro 22:50, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
- Perhaps you should look at the US census data more carefully - I have imported Table #2 from the 2000 US census into Excel and have there seem to be a few discrepancies. I have also tabulated the census data all the way back to 1910 and it seems highly unlikely that there were more than 1 million Americans of Slovak heritage at any point of time. Of particular interred: the 1980 census and the 2000 census both list people of Slovak ancestry at 700 to 800,000. In the light of all this, the 1990 census must contain some aberration. Jbetak 09:31, 20 September 2005 (UTC)