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South Korean cultural claims

South Korean cultural claims (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

The article is a collection of every pieces of rumor on Chinese online and it does not meet the quality of encyclopedic articles. Caspian blue (talk) 02:17, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

• Similar example would be found in Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Uriginal--Caspian blue (talk) 11:15, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

• Note WP:CANVASSing is going on by the creator, Benlisquare (talk · contribs). He secretly canvassed the AFD not only to ja:ノート:韓国起源説 but also zh:Talk:韓國起源論 for supporting his position at both Japanese Misplaced Pages and Chinese Misplaced Pages. I believe that his such behaviors are not only highly inappropriate for the discussion but also constitute a violation on Wiki policy. ja.wiki zh.wiki

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Korea-related deletion discussions. —Caspian blue (talk) 02:22, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

This article is a direct translation from an article from the Chinese Wiki. This article was made to describe Korean claims of other cultures; there was no prior article relating to such a topic, and so I have decided to copy and translate the Chinese Wiki article word by word onto the English Wiki. Yes, there are some poor claims, and bad info, but these can be removed and so information which is credible can be keeped (I repeat, this article is exactly as is from its original Chinese article. I have not edited/added/removed anything.) This article can be improved, maintained to meet standards, and with irrelevant/poor information removed. Additional/more credible sources can be cited for claims which are poorly cited. I acknowledge that some claims may be not wiki-worthy (e.g. the claim about Michael Phelps), and so such claims can be removed. Note that some claims are merely internet rumours, however some may be considered serious. Regarding the Hanzi and Confucius claims are very serious, where the Chinese government has intervened, and in the case of Confucius, the South Korean government has even applied to UNESCO for international recognition. Additionally, since there are articles for Internet memes, Internet hoaxes and Internet phenomenon, why is a page specifically related to a certain branch not "worth" mentioning? Additionally, this article's Chinese, Japanese and Korean counterparts were never nominated for deletion. People do recognize the seriousness of some of these issues. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs 03:26, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Don't say such false info. The dubious article at Korean Misplaced Pages has been nominated for deletion.--Caspian blue (talk) 03:41, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

With so far a larger majority to "keep", 3 to 2, however that does not even matter, that does not change my point that this article can still be edited. I would also like you to consider WP:NOTCENSORED, WP:CHANCE and WP:DEMOLISH. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs 04:27, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Fact does always matters to anything to measure something, and you said the lie or false claim in such assertive tone, according to this this article's Chinese, Japanese and Korean counterparts were never nominated for deletion.. More importantly this article does not meet WP:NOTABILITY. I think you also have to brush up WP:POV, WP:SYNTHESIS.--Caspian blue (talk) 04:36, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

As I have said, edit, rather than delete. You can do it if you want to. You can take the initiative of fixing POV. You can remove uncredible info. Regarding notability, if it was notable on the JP Wiki, why isn't it notable here? The JP article has had many edits, and has lasted a long time without scrutiny. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs 04:48, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Also, I would like you to consider your own personal bias. I can see that you are Korean and so perhaps the decision should be made by someone else. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs 04:31, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Do not intentionally expose my account there and don't judge the nomination based on my ethnicity. That constitutes personal attacks The decision should be made by someone else? What are you implying? I have not even noticed such article at Korean Misplaced Pages until you created the nominated article at English Wiki.--Caspian blue (talk) 04:36, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Korean article aside, there is also much information from respective Chinese and Japanese Wikis, with a large amount of information, regarding the issue, and so one cannot deduce "the issue does not exist" (I am not accusing anyone of anything, just pointing out). If the text is not NPOV, then edit it, that is what wiki is for. If it seems rubbish, delete it. If it is good, keep it. Deleting the entire article does not help anyone. Stubbify it if you really want to. I currently don't have the time to edit/clean the article, as I have said earlier I am only responsible for translation of the Chinese Wiki. Instantly assuming bad faith does not help anyone, and reckless deletion does not follow the entire purpose of Misplaced Pages, where people share their knowledge and ideas. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs 04:47, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Additionally, I am sorry if I have committed a personal attack. I was only trying to point out that the two of us may have our own, separate thoughts. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs 04:50, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

How could I notice the article? It appears on newest articles section of the Korean project notice board. Your other new article Anti-Korean sentiment is well-referenced and noteworthy, but this article is not.--Caspian blue (talk) 04:55, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

People only search for an article if they look for it. Depending on what one is searching for, they might or might not find it noteworthy. Personally I don't care on topics such as Britney Spears and makeup, but someone else may, similarly, others might not be interested in Unit 731 or Second Sino-Japanese war, but I am. Additionally, how could people notice the JP article? So many different people have been editing that article, can it be unnoticed? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs 04:59, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

No, I've checked every new articles appeared on the beard because new articles regarding Korea are only a few per day or week.--Caspian blue (talk) 05:10, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

There, I have taken the initiative of gradually removing non-Wikiworthy points and refurbishing the article. I hope you can help in improving the article. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs 05:04, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

There are same complaints toward Japan (kimuchi incident), and China (plagiarism) existing in South Korea, but I don't think that such collections are a notable subject to have its own article. --Caspian blue (talk) 05:10, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, then can it be stubbified and placed at the end of an existing article, briefly? Such as Korean nationalism or Internet etc etc? If it is "not notable" as an article, it should still be briefly mentioned elsewhere. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs 05:14, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

You can add needed info to Anti-Korean sentiment.--Caspian blue (talk) 05:10, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

• Delete A poorly sourced collection of things which the article claims are not true and which others dispute whether the claims were made at all. Arguably an article could be written about this topic but this isn't it nor is it a good basis for a future article. Nick Connolly (talk) 05:32, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

  I added "Objections by Korea." I also added a lot of sources. The article is no longer "a poorly sourced collection of things."--Michael Friedrich (talk) 05:10, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

• Keep I have just added a lot of sources. South Korean cultural claims are well-known in Japan and there are many books on the issue. Please read South Korean cultural claims#General Idea and South Korean cultural claims#Toward Japan. The article is no longer a poorly sourced collection of things. I can add more sources. I am very confident that I can make the article more reliable and neutral. Please just wait.--Michael Friedrich (talk) 10:43, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

  I knew you would appear here because the subject deals with kumdo that you recently edit. Also, I found something funny and just like the same as Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Uriginal. --11:10, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

  I am sure I can make the article more reliable and neutral than before.--Michael Friedrich (talk) 05:10, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

• Comment Each nation rewrites the history of the world, and similar "we invented the wheel" are not uncommon, all over the world. The point is, usually these "inventions" are nothning but a collection of anecdotes, urban legends and rural misconceptions. Here, the article asserts that they are actually fueled by the government and there's a nationwide nationalistic movement etc. It really requires a qualified and unbiased cleanup. If it's not possible, delete. NVO (talk) 11:44, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
• keep - This article shows relevant information on S. Korean Cultural Claims, within Japan, China and other Countries.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Gorillazfeelgoodinc (talk) 12:32, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
• Comment - Regarding POV, one way to balance the article would be to add a section on the Korean point of view, so that you have one side with accusations, and another with a counterargument. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs 12:35, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
• Canvassing by you is highly inappropriate. Benlisquare, You did that to Japanese and Chinese Misplaced Pages as excluding Korean Wikipeida since you know I'm active there. If you're truly neutral and have no bias, you should not done such thing and rather equally tried to notify it to Korean Misplaced Pages openly. This is just exactly the same as what Michael Freidrich did when Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Uriginal was held.--Caspian blue (talk) 14:23, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Isn't that your job? I don't see how it is my responsibility to notify all 200 Wikipedias. If there were German, French equivalents, would I have to make all 200 edits? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs 09:22, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

There. Korean wiki has been notified. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs 09:31, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Don't be coy. You know that the subject of the article favors Japanese and Chinese side in your defense and disdains South Korea. You did not realize what mistake you committed. That is pretty sad. --Caspian blue (talk) 12:49, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Well perhaps you do not realize that someone from JP Wiki is able to write on the issue, note how I was asking if anyone could "improve an article", note how there is no whistleblowing used, no calling for revolution, no preparation for invasion. In this circumstance the most logical move would be to search for people capable of doing the job; that is to improve the article to "standards". -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs 13:26, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

That is called canvassing. You should learn the same lesson from Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Uriginal in which editors already well explained about inappropriateness of such behaviors.--Caspian blue (talk) 13:51, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

• Comment I have added "Objection by South Korea." The sources are all of Korean mass media. I think this edit improved neutrality of the page.--Michael Friedrich (talk) 15:31, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

You contradicted yourself in your edits:

"As more and more rumours surface from ramant nationalism, various Chinese and Japanese websites ironically see these claims as a joke, although Koreans do not believe the same" I see that you put this in one section, but later you added "KBS claims that such people are not in the main stream and that they are even laughed at in Korea"

Which is it?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.23.83.100 (talk) 23:29, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

You are wrong. It is not me who added the sentence "As more and more rumours surface from ramant nationalism, various Chinese and Japanese websites ironically see these claims as a joke, although Koreans do not believe the same." It is by Benlisquare, who started this article. I don't want you to lay false charge against me. And I have just removed the sentence because it can only be an original research. I am thinking of using only reliable sources. Reliable sources I am thinking of are famous South Korean mass media such as Chosun Ilbo, famous Japanese mass media such as Mainichi Shinbun, books by Shunpei Mizuno, official websites of famous organizations such as All Japan Kendo Federation.--Michael Friedrich (talk) 05:10, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Quote: "As more and more rumours surface from ramant nationalism, various Chinese and Japanese websites ironically see these claims as a joke, although Koreans do not believe the same." This is a direct translation from Chinese Wiki. See it for yourself. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs 09:22, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment So why should the English Misplaced Pages hold such all jumble of the "jokes" from Japanese and Chinese website as a form of article? Misplaced Pages is an ENCYCLOPEDEDIA.--Caspian blue (talk) 12:56, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Then why is it widely accepted in the Chinese and Japanese ENCYCLOPEDIAS? Are they not encyclopediae too? Are their authors not human? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs 13:20, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

The standards of "appropriateness differs from each Encyclopedia. I believe those are not quality articles to become "real encyclopedic materials". Besides, I looked through the talk page of Japanese article, Michael Freidreich deeply involves in editing the articles, and editors there pointed out on his editings.--Caspian blue (talk) 13:48, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Please do not talk as if other editors were against me on the Japanese wiki talk page. I have tried really hard to maintain its neutralness. The Japanese version was full of prejudice toward Korea and it had no reliable sources before I started to edit it. I removed the unreliable sentence too . I am writing the article not from prejudice toward Korea. I believe I am writing truth, citing reliable sources. If there are sentences which is unreliable, we can discuss it on the talk page. I find no reason to delete the whole article. And it is true that I have edited the Japanese version of the article many times, but so what? Does it have anything to do with this discussion? You have said that other version of wikipedia are irrelavent to the English version, haven't you? I know that Koreans are not happy to read the article. But I believe that I have cited only reliable sources and what the article says is true.--Michael Friedrich (talk) 15:00, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

The reason why the creator only exposed my account which is absolutely unrelated to the discussion is to claim that I'm Korean so definitely biased to the subject. Besides, the Benlisquare keeps resorting to "other articles at the (initially three) two language Misplaced Pages" to justify his claim for keeping the article in question. That's different.--Caspian blue (talk) 15:09, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

• Keep and clean up - The article is notable enough for Misplaced Pages IMO, although it needs a serious cleanup. The grammar and spelling is atrocious in some sections, and the Chinese external links are not of any real use to 98% of the article's potential, primarily English-speaking readers. Also, some "claims" listed seem to be far from notable. (Such as the soccer one; seriously, it was mentioned just once on some website and then deleted. It was probably a mistake and not a serious claim of any kind.) --ざくら木 16:23, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

• Delete per WP:V and WP:SYNTH, without prejudice to the creation of an article that is sourced from reliable sources that are preferably not from any of the involved countries. The current sourcing is inadequate for what seems to be a topic of nationalist sensibilities on either side.  Sandstein  20:21, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

  I don't think so. There are very few people outside China, Japan and Korea who are interested in this issue. Even though there are only sources in those languages, I am sure I am using only reliable sources, such as Dong-a Ilbo, Chosun Ilbo, Mainichi Shinbun, official website from All Japan Kendo Federation. It is true that this issue is well-known in China, Japan and Taiwan. This issue is worth mentioning in wikipedia.--Michael Friedrich (talk) 05:10, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

  The Dong-a ilbo only says that Koreans like distinguishing origins of anything and you're distoriting the meaning to make WP:SYNTHESIS. Besides, I repeatedly say "geocity" is not a reliable source. Some rumor sites are all hardly neutral and reliable at all.--Caspian blue (talk) 13:01, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

• Delete The sources seem to be blogs and editorials. The very first source if you click on the link says OPINION on the heading. --Objectiveye (talk) 00:58, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

  Comment They are not blogs. Most of the sorces are of major Korean mass media, such as Chosun Ilbo, Dong-a Ilbo and JoongAng Ilbo. Editorials from newspapers, of cource, can be used as information sources. The very first source is not an opinion by an oridinary internet user but one by an editor of Dong-a Ilbo. Besides, there are words "According to Oh Myung-chul, an editorial writer of Dong-a Ilbo." As long as there are those words and the information is from Dong-a Ilbo, which is a major Korean newspaper, I am sure that it can be said to be reliable. Some information is from books by Shunpei Mizuno, who lived in South Korea for 15 years and was a professor at Chonnam National University. He must be very well-known in South Korea too. I believe his books can be reliable sources. What Objectiveye said above cannot be a reason to delete the article.--Michael Friedrich (talk) 04:44, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Only the first is a forum (of the sources I have given, copied from the Chinese Wiki), to give an example of such an internet rumor. The rest are articles from media sources. As I have said time and time again, if you find a word, sentence, line, paragraph or source that is ill-worthy of mentioning, scrap it. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs 09:32, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Regarding sources, the Hwanguk claim is supported by a KBS documentary; the Confucius and Hanzi claims are backed by various Korean newspapers, such as Chosun Ilbo, as well as Chinese media such as XINHUA. References given are also from official mainstream Chinese news agencies. Numerous relevant Japanese topics also have their newspaper sources. Thus you cannot say that all of these claims are fabricated by blogs, forums and editorials. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs 13:36, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I have seen the whole KBS documentary myself. The youtube video only shows the introduction part where the documentary introduces Hwandangogi to the audience. The documentary goes on to refute the authenticity of Hwandangogi to the conclusion that its authenticity is dubious and it is likely to have been forged in the 20th century. This kind of blatant misinformation throughout the article is another reason why this article should be deleted. Cydevil38 (talk) 16:03, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

• Delete per User:Sandstein. This article cites internet blogs, youtube videos and even internet discussion forums for many dubious claims. Cydevil38 (talk) 16:03, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

  You can remove the internet blogs and youtube videos if there is any. It cannot be a reason to delete the whole article. There are reliable sources too.--Michael Friedrich (talk) 06:34, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

• Delete - while most of the examples seem to be sourced, although poorly at times, the article claims that these examples are all connected and not random in nature and show a pattern of Korean nationalism. This strong claim is not backed by sources, but is suggested by the choice of random examples. Голубое сало/Blue Salo (talk) 03:47, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

  >This strong claim is not backed by sources, but is suggested by the choice of random examples.

  It's not true. backs the claim and mentions the connection of the examples, using the word "uriginal" (uri(our)+original). I quoted a comment from a professor working on this issue. "Professor Masami Oiso at Shizuoka University, Japan, says that this is happening because Koreans have the sense that they can say anything especially to Japan, treating it with distain." Mainichi Sinbun states that "Koreans were regarded by Chinese as a country that claims Chinese cultuer as if it were Korean culture." There is another professor who has been working on this issue, Shunpei Mizuno. He states that this issue is not randam and shows a patten of Korean nationalism. I'll quote his book as soon as possible. Anyway, the claim that those examples are connected is backed by sources.--Michael Friedrich (talk) 06:34, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

• Keep Koreans' steal of other countries' culture trigger backlash over Korea, often in China and Taiwan. The information about stealing is sometimes true, and sometimes false, though. Media in each country often reports such things. Thus, those phenomenon is worth describing in an Encyclopedia.--Mochi (talk) 08:08, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

  Refrain such insulting languages, otherwise, closing admin may ignore your opinion. There is no need to show your anti-Korean sentiment. I've seen that enough per your history. I'm saying a summary to you. Look whose talking? (ex. Japanese attempts to register "kimuchi", the Japanese pronunciation of kimchi as to Britannica and etc, packaging Korean food as Japanese food via Japanese restaurant chains, and many unreturned smuggled thefts of cultural properties by Japanese) These are so truths so must be worthy to have its own article according to your logic.--Caspian blue (talk) 09:19, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not insulting, however if my comment disturb this talk page, that is not what I hope. When UNESCO designated Gangneung Dano Festival as "Masterpieces of the Oral and Intangible Heritage of Humanity", Chinese people were confused, because it is a local version of Duanwu Festival. Even the People's daily reported about it .
It is well-known kimchi is a Korean food in Japan. Japanese people imported Japanese-style kimchi (It is not so fermented as Korean one) with Japanese-style romanized name. Your example is in the wrong place.--Mochi (talk) 11:50, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

You're unnecessarily rude to say such. No, whether Japanese people well know about kimchi being Korean food or not, Japanese had tried to register kimuchi as "Japanese own food" to Britannica and some World Food Association as if that is authentic over kimchi. Every Korean well know about the incident and got enraged. Rather your example is wrong because Koreans did not register "Dano" to UNESCO but just a local festival of Gangneung. That is like an unique type of "Christmas festival" enjoyed by some part of the Western regions. Yule is another name for Christmas in Scandinavia, so visitors go Denmark or Sweden to enjoy their characteristic festivals. So if you want to focus your argument, please do not drag off-topics such as anti-sentiment and nationalism.--Caspian blue (talk) 14:39, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I think the discussion on kimchi is irrelevant here. I would like you two to have a quarrel not here but your own talk pages.--Michael Friedrich (talk) 16:26, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

• Delete Koreancraft--John MacReen (talk) 11:23, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

• John MacReen is a newly registered user. His vote should not be counted.--Michael Friedrich (talk) 13:25, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

• Keep This article shows relevant information on S. Korean Cultural Claims, within Japan, China and other Countries.--Propastop (talk) 15:34, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

• Propastop (talk · contribs) is a newly registered user, so his vote should not be counted. Besides his first edit was to give a 3RR warning to an editor for Gaya confederacy --Caspian blue (talk) 15:41, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

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