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Soviet Union B‑class Top‑importance

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What I think would be interesting would be a discussion on the Soviets rejection of computers and automation and its impact on the Soviet economy. I have read that Soviet leadership saw computers and automation as somewhat anti-proletariat, and therefore never invested the time or the energy into developing them until very late. TDC 20:37, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

You're wrong. Among the first computers in the world there was a large share of Soviet ones.--79.120.87.67 (talk) 15:37, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Hunger?

As I lived in USSR myself and remember 80s well enough I want to say that it was never close to "extreme poverty, hunger and desease". Shortages were big, but they never went to that level. Also in 70s it was much better, this problems started to appear in the early 80s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.49.171.123 (talk • contribs) 01:15, 16 July 2006

What part of the article are you talking about? `'mikka (t) 01:47, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Paranoid's

Constant lowering of prices by the planning agencies led to an unfortunate side effect. As the prices dropped below the equilibrium point, people were always buying all available stock, leading to "empty shelves". The actual food consumption was high, but psychologically the empty shelves proved to be very hard to endure. Even though per capita consumption of most products (with the exception of meat) in Soviet Union was higher than in the United States, people were unhappy. In 1988 consumption of milk and milk products in the USSR was 356 kg per capita (260 kg in the USA), but 44% of the Soviet people said when polled that they were not consuming enough milk. In Armenia, where people consumed 480 kg of milk (1989) 62% of the people were not satisfied with the consumption levels. The situation with most other products (including both food and consumer goods) was similar (figures quoted according to Kara-Murza).

I will not going to reverse this, but this text shows total lack of understanding what was actually happening. The example of milk is extremely silly for one simple reason: at times bread, milk and potatoes were the only available foods in sufficent supply. Naturally, they were consumed in higher quantities than in USA. If you don't have apple juice, lemonaded, if coffe, tea (! who wuld imagine that people would stand in lines for tea!), you drink milk or vodka. You western people don't have a slightest idea what was with food in the whole Eastern bloc, not only Russia. Have you ever heard a once popular joke about the unificatgion of Germanies? "For the first time in their life East Germans ate bananas at will!" The Soviet agrculture was in disaster. At times there was not enough food to feed livestock. I myself being a mathematician in a research institute was sent three years in a row to cut green bushes for forage! Sausages, raw meat, eggs, poultry... You spent half of your free time standing in lines to get these. And when you had your turn, you bought as much as you could, because you was not sure you will have this next week.

And most ridiculous thing of all, people from a village had to come to a city to buy meat or eggs! Muscovies hated suburbs, claiming they buying out everything. But they didn't hate the government that did not send enough stock to these suburbs.

Have you ever seen a Soviet citizen shopping in Socialist Poland or East Germany? The exchange rate was artificially low in favor of rouble. A person was allowed to carry 30 roubles (only!!!!) across the border. And it is unbelievable how much useful things you could buy for 30 roubles when exchanged to Zlotys or Deutsche Marks. Can you believe that at times $1 was 0.67 ruble (officially, but 8 rubles on black market)? The whole Soviet economy was so twisted, skewed and crooked, that it is impossible to logically describe it in several lines how it worked at all.

Soviet people were drinking much milk. Sheesh!!!! Idiotism. Mikkalai 18:43, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Idiotism should refer to your biased views... -YMB29 (talk)

Possibly you are right, but only concerning to the final, declining period of SU's history. One of course could criticize the economy of SU (there was many flaws), but the second economy in the world couldn't be simply told to be totally wrong (especially, if taking in account the initial level of the development). My personal opinion, that the problems of SU is its population the time of late 70' and 80'. To much of the population turned to midcult peasants, Babbitts, blind philistines, whom strived to gain relative well-being comparing to others. That devastating psychology, led to self-collapsing process. Indeed, population of SU have in general deserved to their ill fate. Again it is my personal opinion.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.144.223.229 (talk • contribs) 13:23, 17 May 2005

I must concur with the page editor, these more extreme problems refer to the final period of USSR. At other times there were lines for certain products but not constant agricultural disaster. I spent some years in Russia and I know some people who ate better in Soviet days in spite of the pesky lines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.177.138.109 (talk) 00:12, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Almost everyone ate much better during Soviet days. Unlike now, low body mass of people was not a problem... -YMB29 (talk)

The problem with the Soviet economy didnt occur near the end of its run, but was inherently and absolutly flawed. The increased productivity and economic output does not reflect a legitimate economic shift in a country but only the introduction of slave labor into industry. The increase in output was indeed amazing but not when you consider that it was a flame fueled by the lives of the people of russia. The second input above is true in that, hunger, disease, and extreme poverty were rampant. Even those lucky enough to have a job waited for days just to get scraps of meat, eggs and bread that we wouldnt touch in America. Some people say that communism "looks good on paper". I ask them, how good does slavery, tyrrany and opression look? "Proletariens of the world unite!" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gavrisom (talk • contribs) 06:41, 3 May 2006

Maybe you should stop reading only propaganda? -YMB29 (talk)

Planning

It is high time to cut the "Planning" section into a separate article, merging it with the additional public domain material from Library of Congress Studies, stored at Gosplan/temp, but searchable in LOC as well: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/sutoc.html#su0311 . Mikkalai

Agreed. There is even more stuff at the LOC about Planning, they have a huge amount of info. - FrancisTyers 21:04, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Milk consumption section

I deleted it. It was written out of total lack of understanding on what was happening: milk and bread were staple foods in Soviet Union, with artificially low prices for them. Of course people consumed more milk than Americans! There were so many skewedness in Soviet economy, so don't even start putting it there without understanding the whole system, or, better, using repotabe analytical works on the issue. For example, did you know that bread was so cheap that in the countryside people bought bread to feed pigs? Of course it is grains are normal kind of nutrient for livestock, but it was impossible to buy it (known as "kombikorm", an abbreviation for "combined forage"). `'mikka (t) 01:45, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Lowering prices

I removed this naive theory as well. First, there was no "constant lowering". Second, there were no "empty shelves": there were shelves flled with useless things, produced but so ugly that no one wanted them. "Empty shelves" were in food stores. But they were empty because of agricultural disaster, not because greedy people bought everything out. "Emty shelves" (figuratively speaking) were for certain goods, which are necessary, and many people preferred to hoard them "just in case", because it was known that when you need it, you will not find it in stores. And all this had nothing to do with low prices. `'mikka (t) 01:53, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

What?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by YMB29 (talk • contribs) 20:50, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Bias

The article credits central planning with revitalizing heavy industry and making USSR the world's second-largest economy. The only 'fault' is that they didn't shift from total control 'in time' to prevent stagnation. I don't think this is a consensus view, but a pro-socialist one. --Uncle Ed 14:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

-I don't see anything wrong with this article. Only very anti-soviet people have been complaining about problems. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.253.220.13 (talk • contribs) 11:41, 21 November 2006

-It's funny that an article that tries to take a neutral stance and isn't completely anti-soviet is considered baised. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.122.154.87 (talk • contribs) 20:08, 26 November 2006

-I think the fact that certain industries thrived in Soviet Union cannot be debated. However, the economic achievements of the Soviet Union frequently don't take into account the human toll. For example, many of the workers which helped built railroads (necessary for the transportation of goods and people across the largest country in the world) were political and other prisoners and thus were paid nothing (except minimal food). What about the countless of unmet consumer needs, the miserable conditions many had to endure, the large sacrifices in living conditions which many people had to make for "the common good", etc. This "human cost" and suffering is definitely a factor to account for (not easy to do, of course) when considering how Soviet Union was able to increase the overall economic output.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Nmai1 (talk • contribs) 05:45, 18 December 2006

-It definatel is biased. There is nothing that speaks of the overwhelming poverty and distribution errors that occurred. This article does nothing but describe the few (but, in this article, greatly amplified) successes of the soviet economy. It does not speak about housing or how work was assigned either. Consider adding this. This is from the USSR Wiki article:

Although these past achievements were impressive, in the mid-1980s Soviet leaders faced many problems. Production in the consumer and agricultural sectors was often inadequate (see Agriculture of the Soviet Union and shortage economy). Crises in the agricultural sector reaped catastrophic consequences in the 1930s, when collectivization met widespread resistance from the kulaks, resulting in a bitter struggle of many peasants against the authorities, and artificial famine, particularly in Ukraine (see Holodomor), but also in the Volga River area and Kazakhstan. In the consumer and service sectors, a lack of investment resulted in black markets in some areas.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Capitalism&PunkRock (talk • contribs) 22:04, 27 March 2007

• I am EXTREMELY concerned about this article and its bias. It paints a completely one-sided picture of the Soviet Economy, and is more-or-less completely uncited. The article casually makes claims about Soviet GDP and economic growth rates without providing any sources to back these claims up. Furthermore, looking at secondary sources which can be easily sourced on the internet, a very different picture is painted. Sources such as this: http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/s7611.html or this: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/commandingheights/lo/countries/ru/ru_full.html Tell a story about an economy which was unable to ever keep pace with consumer goods, still hadn't constructed much basic infrastructure (including roads) as late as the 1970s, and had to import technology from the West because the economy was deficient at keeping pace. None of this is mentioned in the article at all. Unless the current article is sufficiently cited, and soon, I suggest a MAJOR re-write to remove unqualified statements, and to include these cited aspects of the Soviet Economy.24.1.156.114 06:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Removed books

Removed books abut politics of thre USSR. There are thousands of various books about USSR. Common sense is needed in bibliography. We need books specifically about economy. If there is something useful in these books, please explain. If these books contain something missing in the article, please add article text. `'Miikka 15:13, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Article lacks information

About the role economic plunder and quasi-colonial exploitation in Soviet occupied countries played to Soviet economy.--Molobo 16:09, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Needs more Graphs on GDP, GNP, etc.!

Can we please get more of these? showing the growth in the 5 year plans, the stagnation of the 70s and 80s? Population growth? Worker population?--Dwarf Kirlston 01:52, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Kalinin-prospekt-cccp.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Wartime economy

Would anyone care to insert a section for this here? It can also use a separate article. I'm ashamed to say I have no time to write one myself.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:11, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Taxes in USSR

There is no information about tax system of the USSR (yep, there were taxes in USSR). Income tax - 13% and sales tax on the groups of the good.

History needs to be expanded

We really need an article on the economic history of the Soviet Union. Its amazing that the entire World War II economy of the USSR - which was vastly responsible for winning the war for the Soviets, outproducing the Nazis - is described in half a sentence here... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:01, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

1990

By 1990, the Soviet economy had plunged into its nadir and was estimated at about 20 per cent of the size of the USA.

One need look no further than a few centimetres to the right to see that *apparently* the CIA factbook disagrees with this VERY SIGNIFICANTLY...I'm no expert but my guess is that the CIA didn't go around giving excessively favourable statistics about the economies of communist countries. Constan69 (talk) 13:25, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

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