User talk:Jaakobou: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 15:09, 18 September 2008 editNishidani (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users99,512 edits →Iman Darweesh al-Hams ← Previous edit		Revision as of 15:17, 18 September 2008 edit undoJaakobou (talk \| contribs)15,880 edits →Iman Darweesh al-Hams: here's a better suggestion.Next edit →
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	:Done. <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 14:11, 18 September 2008 (UTC)		:Done. <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 14:11, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

	::Thanks for that. Don't know what below refers to, but will look around.] (]) 15:09, 18 September 2008 (UTC)		:::Thanks for that. Don't know what below refers to, but will look around.] (]) 15:09, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
			::::Would be better if you put some time into mentoring PalestineRemembered to stop playing games and promoting the massacre narrative about the Battle of Jenin. <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 15:17, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

	::You know, for a person so sensitive to nationality issues, Tiamut sure doesn't have any qualms about trashing on Israel. Just now she insists on adding the suggestion that Israel "enjoyed" the 9.11 attacks, lending a hand to the usual antisemitic libels running around in the Arab world. Heck, not just insisting on it, but tag-team edit warring to keep it in an article despite external opinions of two uninvolved editors. <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 14:15, 18 September 2008 (UTC)		::You know, for a person so sensitive to nationality issues, Tiamut sure doesn't have any qualms about trashing on Israel. Just now she insists on adding the suggestion that Israel "enjoyed" the 9.11 attacks, lending a hand to the usual antisemitic libels running around in the Arab world. Heck, not just insisting on it, but tag-team edit warring to keep it in an article despite external opinions of two uninvolved editors. <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 14:15, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Revision as of 15:17, 18 September 2008

Aah!

A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.

Ooh!

The man who smiles when things go wrong has thought of someone to blame it on.

wannabe kate edit summary (refresh) Sunday 29 December02:13 UTC

Welcome to Jaakobou's talk page.

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notes

Stuff I'm reading:

Barnstar

		The Israeli Barnstar of National Merit
		Jaakobou, You have worked hard to attempt to improve wikipedia's Israel/Palestine related articles. You have made appropriate additions and changes, added sourced content, and dealt with the POV issues related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I believe you have at many times tried to promote improvement and NPOV in many wikipedia articles, and have greatly improved many articles. You have had to deal with some issues in the past, have faced at times controversial sanctioning, but when you were wrong, you have learned from your mistakes, and improved your editing, and since, you have become a very good editor. For all you have done, you have won my respect, and are in my opinion very deserving of this barnstar. YahelGuhan (talk) 05:25, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Floating header

First comment copied from Sceptre's talkpage.

Could you please guide me in the secret art of the floating smiley? (lower right corner)
Cheers, Jaakobou 23:03, 19 July 2008 (UTC) clarify 23:06, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Just add {{User:Cream/scrolling}} to your talk page, or-if you have one-header subpage. Sceptre 23:05, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Took me a little while to sort it out, but I think I got the hang of it. Thank you for the link. Jaakobou 23:51, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Replaceable fair use Image:City_of_Jenin_and_refugee_camp.jpg

Replaceable fair use

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RfC on Elonka

Hi Jaakobou, I wasn't sure if you were aware of the RfC on Elonka WP:Requests_for_comment/Elonka but knowing your involvement in the al-Durrah article I was sure you would want to know. I hope this is not seen as canvassing, but I do think that those who may have a special interest in it should somehow be notified of it and I have taken it upon myself to notify a few people who are involved. Tundrabuggy (talk) 16:16, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm a bit conflicted. I think ChrisO should have toned things down and can see where the sanctions have come from. On the other hand, I understand his concerns and even suggested shortening his previous ban. Right now I'm considering placing a support in the "civility" note by one of the participants but have yet to decide on committing to that action or any other action. I'm trying to avoid conflicts as much as possible (while still dealing with some content concerns) and lately it feels as though two-three editors are actively seeking to pull me in that ugly direction. To take the initiative myself and join a conflict -- which I'm not a very active part of -- might be a bad idea in my part.

Thank you for the notice, it's not really canvassing since I have tried to calm things down on the page and even made a few opinions here and there, esp. in regards to the handling of the dispute and the civility issues. If anyone accuses you of canvassing for this message, let me know and I'll explain my involvement and how this note is a fair notice.

Cheers, Jaakobou 16:31, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I understand your position. Thanks for sharing it.Tundrabuggy (talk) 10:26, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay; here is the clarification you requested. John Vandenberg 12:59, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi. Just want to say that I liked your recent thoughtful response about her role at Shahaf. Cheers. HG | Talk 21:22, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

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Another restoration?

Hi Jaakobou, I've found a couple of high resolution images of construction work in Tel Aviv, both taken during the 1920s. Seems like it would make a wonderful FP drive to restore photography of a UNESCO World Heritage site being built. Please contact me via Skype and I'll transfer the original .tif files. Best wishes, Durova 20:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll try to get to them sometime in the not too distant future. Jaakobou 19:04, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Hematospermia

Venderdicken? Deliberate misspelling of my name, inserting 'dick' into the last part? I fail to see how most people would construe that as anything but insulting. Or childish, for that matter. —Vanderdecken∴ ∫ξ φ 16:39, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok. I realise why you'd attack a mispelling of your username but sadly, that's how I read it the first time around. If this error insults you so badly, you should consider renaming your username because Vanderdicken is very close to Vanderdecken. Try a look at WP:AGF while you're looking into WP:CIV.

Thanks. Jaakobou 18:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC) add link 18:28, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but why include it if you know it's offensive, other than to offend? I'm well aware of many policies and guidelines, including AGF and CIV, and I find myself straining at the bounds of AGF quite regularly. I do not claim to be a wikisaint, so would rather knock the odd wikitwat-end (not implicating you by the way, this is a minor disagreement compared to some of the scum that find their way to this site) down an entire ladder than be constantly meek. Sometimes it takes inhuman amounts of willpower to assume someone's being dense rather than annoying, however, "Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." And I will not rename myself, as you will find that Vanderdecken is a perfectly legitimate Dutch name that I happen to like. —Vanderdecken∴ ∫ξ φ 23:12, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

If you feel Hanlon's razor helps you keep calm and avoid calling people plagiarists, then by all means consider it. However, charging forward with claims of malice and/or stupidity still seem like something non of us, you included, would appreciate. Keep in mind that someone on the other side of the keyboard is contributing his time to improve the project so it's best to ask before you shoot.

With respect, Jaakobou 23:54, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Semen

I urge you to work towards convincing people of the value of your pserspective, respecting other peoples opinions and generating consensus over edit warring. You quoted WP:BURO, I give you "Disagreements should be resolved through consensus-based discussion, rather than through tightly sticking to rules and procedures." You choose not to participate in the survey to seek consensus. I offer you WP:NOTBATTLEGROUND "Making personal battles out of Misplaced Pages discussions goes directly against our policies and goals." and "Every user is expected to interact with others civilly, calmly, and in a spirit of cooperation. Do not insult, harass, or intimidate those with whom you have a disagreement."

You quoted WP:BOLD, from that I offer you "...but be careful. Though the boldness of contributors like you is one of Misplaced Pages's most precious assets, it is important that contributors take care of the common good, or at least that they not edit recklessly. However, any changes you make that turn out badly can be reverted, often quite painlessly. It is important not to be insulted if your changes are reverted or edited further." and also "On controversial articles, the safest course is to find consensus before making changes".

You quoted WP:COMMON, and from that I offer you "Invoking the principle of ignore all rules on its own will not convince anyone that you were right"' and "However, ignoring a rule or editing in such a manner as will cost another their time is generally, incivil and unprofessional"

Building consensus means workign with other editors. Expressing your opinions cogently to convince them of the value of your position. Forcing your way and disregarding other peoples opinions with reasoning such as WP:BOLD and WP:BURO would be directly contrary to that. Atom (talk) 03:48, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Please tell me you see the macabre humor in using "please stop edit warring" in an edit summary of a revert? Color balance is tweaked in images all the time, judging from everyday discussion at Misplaced Pages:Featured pictures. – Luna Santin (talk) 03:55, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

There's nothing controversial about improving the white balance of an image.. because you complain that the colors are off. To be frank, you're ignoring community input and acting like you own the article. Not EVERYTHING demands discussions and polls before you make the edit and there's a point where common sense kicks in. Jaakobou 13:25, 19 August 2008 (UTC) clarify. 13:26, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Graphics lab

Gave a reply. Jaakobou 20:11, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Israel and Apartheid

I ended up reverting this, since you cut the article off in mid-link - I'm guessing that wasn't your intent. But, please tell me to go to hell if I screwed up. Thanks! UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 00:56, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

...and you got it. Thanks, UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 00:57, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Jaakobou, greetings. As you may know, Ryan has removed the POV tag that you placed on the article (putting on instead a tag on the 1st section). I've objected firmly and he has defended the removal. Whether I'm right or wrong, since you placed the tag and presumably have your own opinion about POV tagging, you may want to weigh in here. Feel free to support section-level tag(s) if that is your best judgment. Thanks for your consideration. HG | Talk 20:40, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Feedback

Yep, I read them (yesterday). It's much faster to leave me messages on my talk page. It seems like analyzing those AfDs is more time consuming than the participation in the first place. :)

I've looked at more of your AfDs, and have left comments on my talk page.

By the way, are you looking for something interesting to do?

It's sort of like travelling all around the world, and involves various wikitools and wikimethods.

If you'd like to join our team and help, let me know.

The Transhumanist 22:57, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Not enough hours in the day to allow me joining on that project. :) Jaakobou 23:02, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Minutes add up. Besides, it's easy, and fun. Right now, we're doing a lot of "blue-linking" - creating redirects so that redlinks turn blue. Could sure use your help. The Transhumanist 01:39, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Bakri

Once a court case is settled, I don't think there's any need to go into the details of what the opposing parties said before/during the case. He was sued, and he was acquitted - that's all there is to it, and we don't need to restate the defense's case. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:03, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

It's basic information about the film. There's room to rephrase it possibly, but a compete removal does not contribute to the project. I do agree that the section about the film is ridiculously long and should be trimmed to possibly two paragraphs. Jaakobou 23:07, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The film has its own article, and this information might be relevant there. It is an unneeded level of detail in biography of the person. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:11, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

You should probably move it to the talk page then for future reference. I for one believe that the note about Feldman being his counselor is also pertinent to Bakri's article and not only the film article. Jaakobou 23:32, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

thanks for the link

Yosef.garibaldi.gmail (talk) 19:14, 30 August 2008 (UTC) yesher caph vav khet :) and shalom eleichem.

thanks for your help

Thank you very much for your editing help. Problem(s) solved! :) Cristixav (talk) 19:39, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

La Princesse

Ooh thank you!! Roisterdoister (talk) 08:30, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

You are clever. I have put it in the article - much better!! Roisterdoister (talk) 09:10, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Closed Gilad Shalit Case

I've closed the case as there was no will to continue. Thank you for your participation. Sunray (talk) 07:04, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Further to your e-mail message earlier today, my comments were added when the case was closed. They are recorded here. Sunray (talk) 14:59, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Palestinian prisoners

Hi Jaakobou. I see you've called into question the NPOV and accuracy of this article. I've responded on the talkpage that I think there's no way the article will ever meet the criteria for inclusion in Misplaced Pages...the subject is as unnotable as Texas prisoners or Mexican prisoners or American prisoners or oh, I dunno, Israeli prisoners. The article itself however, is an example of crappy English mixed with POV-pushing and an inability to figure out what constitutes a reliable source, along with an unhealthy dose of synthesis. The article should just go. Unfortunately, I don't have time to nominate it for the garbage heap. Tomer 14:06, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Feh. Tiamut has moved the article. I'm sure he's well-meaning, but the exercise has made the article even more ridiculous... :-\ Tomer 18:39, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Not that it really matters, but Tiamut is a self professed Israeli-Arab female. I'm not entirely sure if the article should just go due to it's status or that the issues could be worked out. Random reverts with uncivil commentary, though, make me concerned that you might be correct. I'm keeping hopeful that "stiffened necks" might loosen a bit and that the article could become encyclopedic rather than a mouthpiece. Jaakobou 07:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Jaakobou, I am a self-professed Palestinian citizen of Israel. It's nice that you got my gender right, but when prefacing statements with "self-professed", a little sensitivity toward how I represent my identity might be in order. I'm quite sure you are aware of how the most Palestinians in Israel find the term "Israeli-Arab" to be somewhat insulting. Cordially, Tiamut 17:43, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I apologize for offending you Tiamut. I would appreciate a link to your claim that your terminology is indeed majority preferred by Palestinian citizens of Israel. Jaakobou 18:04, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not claiming that most Palestinians in Israel prefer my terminology, Jaakobou. I relayed to you how I construct my identity (something I thought we had discussed before) and asked you to respect that. The only claim I made was that most Palestinians in Israel find the term you used (i.e. "Israeli Arab") to be insulting. I'm surprised you're not aware of that. It is covered somewhat inferentially in the article on Arab citizens of Israel, but to respond to your request for a "citation", this one by Jonathan Cook says:

Although most continue to identify themselves as Palestinian, preferring to be called Palestinian citizens of Israel, the state identifies them as ‘Israeli Arabs’ – a term some of them find as offensive as black Americans might today at being called ‘negroes’.

I hope that satisfactorily addresses your concerns. Tiamut 18:25, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I was somewhat confused that you used "most Palestinians in Israel" in your statement. I have no qualms about apologizing for as well as correcting my error in regards to your personal self-descriptive. I'm still left confused by your somewhat surprising "most" claim when the provided source is a Nazareth based writer of both Electronic Intifada and The Guardian which uses the term "some". I'm fairly certain that had the term truly been offensive to the majority of Palestinian-Arab civilians of Israel as you ascertained, then it would not have been used by the BBC. Heck, even Azmi Bishara uses the term and no one suspects him of being an Israel-o-phile.

Btw, I find Jonathan Cook's mention that some Arabs are as offended by 'Israeli Arabs' as (most) Black Americans are offended by 'Negroes' - to be a completely improper (read: grotesque sensationalism, borderline anti-Semitic blood libel) statement that leads the reader by the nose to mistakenly assume that Israel may have treated Arab citizens of the state as the Whites did to the Blacks not too long ago (see also: Slavery in the United States). This "writer" truly earned any superlatives I may endow upon him in the future.

Cordially, Jaakobou 19:21, 11 September 2008 (UTC) clarify. 19:22, 11 September 2008 (UTC) add. 19:39, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

General discussion with Nishidani

People who are self-assured of their identity, and their cultural world, shouldn't really be asked to 'prove' it, Jaakobou, particularly when they belong to minorities. So it was somewhat indelicate, as a Jewish Israeli, to push for evidence. I'm glad to note you have apologized. If you have an identity, you don't cast about to shore it up with data, unless you are lacking self-assurance and not known for reliability, as a wikipedian, unlike our Tiamut. In any case, I do have the data you requested, that confirm her remark, and am happy to share it. After the al-Aqsa Intifada, the early poll results which showed roughly 40% of Arabs in Israel described their identity as hyphenated by using 'Israeli', changed rapidly. From that time, things changed (I can't find the data I have from the Haifa region, I'll put it in when these wretchedly messy files of mine are collated). David Rudge's "Poll - Israeli Arabs' Palestinian identity Growing', published in the Jerusalem Post, on March 31, 2000 revealed that there had been a 25% collapse in the earlier (1996) figure: only 15% of Arab citizens of Israel identified themselves with an hyphenated Israeli-. Instead 80% described themselves variously as Palestinians or Arab-Palestinians in Israel (However, Donna Rosenthal, in her The Israelis: Ordinary People in an Extraordinary Land, Simon & Schuster, New York 2005 p. 256, gives the 2000 figure as 70%. It depends how you break down the data).

Of course, polls fluctuate over time, and fresher evidence might alter the picture. But Donna Rosenthal's recent book, and also Steven V.Mazie's 2006 book, Israel’s Higher Law:Religion and Liberal Democracy in the Jewish State, Lexington Books p.79 showcase this data, and confirm the truth of Tiamut's remarks.Nishidani (talk) 19:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Hello Nishidani,

I think you kind of owe me an apology here for claiming I asked Tiamut to prove her ethnicity. I did no such thing and accepted it at face value on her own assertions that she is a Palestinian citizen of Israel.

The debate was on her surprising claim that the term 'Israeli-Arab' is offensive to the majority of the Arabs in my country. Your polls btw, do not assert this claim - see Misuse of statistics (let me know if this requires further explanation).

With respect, Jaakobou 20:11, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Very apt choice of words Jaakobou (re: "the majority of the Arabs in my country"). I think that's a home run hit for you - congratulations! There is little point in carrying on this discussion. Cordially, Tiamut 22:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Please explain exactly what is offensive about being referred to as an Israeli Arab, if that is in fact what one is? I in turn find it somewhat offensive that the national identity of the State of Israel is deemed as something which is found offensive to be grouped under. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 20:22, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

True, and I appreciate your reply. however, Israeli is a factual political term based on national citizenship, not an ethnic term. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 20:41, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Did I miss something? Jaakobou 20:58, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi. my reply was to the comment by PalestineRemembered which has been removed. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 21:24, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

"you now turn to say I owe you an apology. I owe you no such thing, except, perhaps this lesson in English usage." - Nishidani (talk) 21:25, 11 September 2008 (UTC) (click "" to see full text)
Now, now, Jaakobou, you are, permit me, shifting the goal-posts. You have some regard, from past encounters, for my having the appearance of being a precision in linguistic niceties. Let me give you a little lesson in construal of what is not your native idiom. (a)'Tiamut is a self-professed Israeli-Arab female Comment. 'Self-professed' means 'self-proclaimed', which means 'based on one's own assertion' . A self-proclaimed/self-professed genius is someone who asserts he is a genius, with the implication that the assertion is subjective, and not one generally shared. 'Self-professed' is actually a modern pleonasm, a calque on 'self-acknowledged', and in English historical prose, one simply said 'professed'. Professed meant 'openly declared or avowed by oneself; something with an implication of 'not real', and so = Alleged, ostensible, pretended' (OED vol.XII p.572 column 2, sect.2 sub professed). To call Tiamut a 'self-professed Israeli-Arab' implies therefore to attuned native ears that only Tiamut asserts that she is 'Israeli-Arab', reducing a fact to a claim, and wrapping that claim up in doubt, indeed insinuating that it is not true but merely an alleged identity. 'Self-professed' implies, perhaps you missed this strong nuance, that Tiamut is not what you called an 'Israeli-Arab' a citizen of your country, but simply pretending to be one. Unfortunately this is the way language works, and in this sense everyone from Fichte, to Heidegger to Derrida is correct in saying, 'we do not speak language, language speaks through us' often making us say things which bear connotations the unwary do not note. Secondly, Tiamut has never professed to being an Israeli-Arab. She has, as long as I have run across her remarks on this aspect, always strongly identified herself as a Palestinian in Israel. (b)Tiamut, whose feel for English is of a very high order, did not wholly miss this nuance (which is usually heard as extremely crass only to native speakers of a certain literary background), and, adopting your adjective ironically, replied:- 'I am a self-professed Palestinian citizen of Israel' I say 'ironically' because she quickly added: 'when prefacing statements with "self-professed", a little sensitivity toward how I represent my identity might be in order'. By putting 'self-professed' within inverted commas Tiamut alerted you to the problem I have expatiated on earlier. It carries, in short, a derogative connotation, common in mocking people's pretensions. (c) She then made a generalization you later contested, as doubtful. 'most Palestinians in Israel find the term "Israeli-Arab" to be somewhat insulting' (d)You replied: 'I apologize for offending you(,) Tiamut. I would appreciate a link to your claim that your terminology is indeed majority preferred by Palestinian citizens of Israel.'(a pardonable lapse given the medium we work in:= 'is indeed preferred by the majority of Palestinian citizens of Israel'. The apology was due, and you gave it promptly, and for that you are again to be commended. The problem is that trailing afterthought you then hung on the end of the apology. You withdrew your (crass? let us say thoughtlessly casual) remark, only to repeat it in different terms, by asking for evidence to back her second affirmation. In other words (i) you said Tiamut claimed to be someone she may not be (in your perhaps unintended view) and when reproved apologized, only to ask her to prove something else, namely that most Palestinians in Israel find the first term you used of her 'someone insulting'. One could overload wiki(it already happens) with hairsplitting queries on virtually every exchange made on talk-pages, requesting 'proof'. Now in normal human affairs, we do not footnote our every other remark (though my family has for decades mocked me gently as someone who even footnotes his jokes). Conversation can never exhaust the complex implications, intuitions, mental associations and subtle perceptions that interleave our words. We 'twig' the essential point, and when we avert somethings, simple withdraw, stay silent, or drop the tempted follow-up or repartee. Nothing in the rulebook in Wiki would find your second remark objectionable. It is simply a matter of style. You cut a finer figure, if you tread on sensitive toes, to drop the argument. You apologized, but did not drop the argument. This is all nuance, Jaakobou, and it certainly isn't easy for non-native speakers. You have shown notable progress (like myself) over the past year in these things, and these things would be nugatory peccadillos, were it not for the fact that our Tiamut happens to belong to an ethnic minority. (e)When I supplied evidence that there was a radical shift in what Israelis called the language of 'Arab-Israeli' identity, you now turn to say I owe you an apology. I owe you no such thing, except, perhaps this lesson in English usage. My Haifa University data, read a year ago, and more recent than what I supplied, shows that there is a very pronounced generational shift in 'Arab-Israeli' perceptions, with the older generation conservatively accepting this formula, and the young eagerly asserting their Palestinian identity, often in a prickly way. The Haifa data revealed interviewees complaining of how they had to live dual lives. If in the streets and discoteques, they passed, for culture and mastery of colloquial Hebrew, as Jews, fine. If they reacted to some anti-Palestinian crack by admitting they were Arab/Palestinians, friendships froze up. To frig round with statistics when there is so much evidence of this order, anthropological and anecdotal, is rather, yes, crass. I would prefer not to end up on a sour note, but every Israeli knows their fellow Arab citizens are citizens of what is a Jewish state. Sensitivity and tact is therefore required by the majority, for the former can never be fully 'Israeli', can never wholly feel accepted, under those terms. A matter for reflection, and not for debate (and in no way implying Israel has no right to exist. Of course it does). You allege, in an incautious use of 'self-profess' that Tiamut *was neither an 'Arab-Israeli* nor who she has said she was**, was the original offense, implying she had a dubious statehood (Palestinian though in Israel) and the rest is irrelevant. This is the end of my comment. I have an off-wiki reading backlog. Sincerely yours Nishidani (talk) 21:25, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

"you now turn to say I owe you an apology. I owe you no such thing, except, perhaps this lesson in English usage." - Nishidani (talk) 21:25, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
(click "" to see full text)

Now, now, Jaakobou, you are, permit me, shifting the goal-posts. You have some regard, from past encounters, for my having the appearance of being a precision in linguistic niceties. Let me give you a little lesson in construal of what is not your native idiom.

(a)'Tiamut is a self-professed Israeli-Arab female

Comment. 'Self-professed' means 'self-proclaimed', which means 'based on one's own assertion' . A self-proclaimed/self-professed genius is someone who asserts he is a genius, with the implication that the assertion is subjective, and not one generally shared. 'Self-professed' is actually a modern pleonasm, a calque on 'self-acknowledged', and in English historical prose, one simply said 'professed'. Professed meant 'openly declared or avowed by oneself; something with an implication of 'not real', and so = Alleged, ostensible, pretended' (OED vol.XII p.572 column 2, sect.2 sub professed).

To call Tiamut a 'self-professed Israeli-Arab' implies therefore to attuned native ears that only Tiamut asserts that she is 'Israeli-Arab', reducing a fact to a claim, and wrapping that claim up in doubt, indeed insinuating that it is not true but merely an alleged identity. 'Self-professed' implies, perhaps you missed this strong nuance, that Tiamut is not what you called an 'Israeli-Arab' a citizen of your country, but simply pretending to be one. Unfortunately this is the way language works, and in this sense everyone from Fichte, to Heidegger to Derrida is correct in saying, 'we do not speak language, language speaks through us' often making us say things which bear connotations the unwary do not note. Secondly, Tiamut has never professed to being an Israeli-Arab. She has, as long as I have run across her remarks on this aspect, always strongly identified herself as a Palestinian in Israel.

(b)Tiamut, whose feel for English is of a very high order, did not wholly miss this nuance (which is usually heard as extremely crass only to native speakers of a certain literary background), and, adopting your adjective ironically, replied:-

'I am a self-professed Palestinian citizen of Israel'

I say 'ironically' because she quickly added: 'when prefacing statements with "self-professed", a little sensitivity toward how I represent my identity might be in order'.

By putting 'self-professed' within inverted commas Tiamut alerted you to the problem I have expatiated on earlier. It carries, in short, a derogative connotation, common in mocking people's pretensions.

'most Palestinians in Israel find the term "Israeli-Arab" to be somewhat insulting'

(d)You replied: 'I apologize for offending you(,) Tiamut. I would appreciate a link to your claim that your terminology is indeed majority preferred by Palestinian citizens of Israel.'(a pardonable lapse given the medium we work in:= 'is indeed preferred by the majority of Palestinian citizens of Israel'.

The apology was due, and you gave it promptly, and for that you are again to be commended. The problem is that trailing afterthought you then hung on the end of the apology. You withdrew your (crass? let us say thoughtlessly casual) remark, only to repeat it in different terms, by asking for evidence to back her second affirmation. In other words (i) you said Tiamut claimed to be someone she may not be (in your perhaps unintended view) and when reproved apologized, only to ask her to prove something else, namely that most Palestinians in Israel find the first term you used of her 'someone insulting'.

One could overload wiki(it already happens) with hairsplitting queries on virtually every exchange made on talk-pages, requesting 'proof'. Now in normal human affairs, we do not footnote our every other remark (though my family has for decades mocked me gently as someone who even footnotes his jokes). Conversation can never exhaust the complex implications, intuitions, mental associations and subtle perceptions that interleave our words. We 'twig' the essential point, and when we avert somethings, simple withdraw, stay silent, or drop the tempted follow-up or repartee. Nothing in the rulebook in Wiki would find your second remark objectionable. It is simply a matter of style. You cut a finer figure, if you tread on sensitive toes, to drop the argument. You apologized, but did not drop the argument. This is all nuance, Jaakobou, and it certainly isn't easy for non-native speakers. You have shown notable progress (like myself) over the past year in these things, and these things would be nugatory peccadillos, were it not for the fact that our Tiamut happens to belong to an ethnic minority.

(e)When I supplied evidence that there was a radical shift in what Israelis called the language of 'Arab-Israeli' identity, you now turn to say I owe you an apology. I owe you no such thing, except, perhaps this lesson in English usage. My Haifa University data, read a year ago, and more recent than what I supplied, shows that there is a very pronounced generational shift in 'Arab-Israeli' perceptions, with the older generation conservatively accepting this formula, and the young eagerly asserting their Palestinian identity, often in a prickly way. The Haifa data revealed interviewees complaining of how they had to live dual lives. If in the streets and discoteques, they passed, for culture and mastery of colloquial Hebrew, as Jews, fine. If they reacted to some anti-Palestinian crack by admitting they were Arab/Palestinians, friendships froze up. To frig round with statistics when there is so much evidence of this order, anthropological and anecdotal, is rather, yes, crass. I would prefer not to end up on a sour note, but every Israeli knows their fellow Arab citizens are citizens of what is a Jewish state. Sensitivity and tact is therefore required by the majority, for the former can never be fully 'Israeli', can never wholly feel accepted, under those terms. A matter for reflection, and not for debate (and in no way implying Israel has no right to exist. Of course it does). You allege, in an incautious use of 'self-profess' that Tiamut was neither an 'Arab-Israeli nor who she has said she was, was the original offense, implying she had a dubious statehood (Palestinian though in Israel) and the rest is irrelevant. This is the end of my comment. I have an off-wiki reading backlog. Sincerely yours Nishidani (talk) 21:25, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

p.s. Jaakabou. Quite cute, those little bogey-characters you've attached ingeniously to your page. Are they clickable, or will succumbing to my temptation to open them send me spiralling into a dark hole like I was a Higgs particle in the Hadron thingamejig?:)Nishidani (talk) 21:52, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Nishidani,

I'm honestly not amused by your condescending conduct and bad faith allegations. English sub-context can mean a number of things even to native speakers of it and I don't much care for the way you falsely ascribe hyperbole to context and attack me on a personal level. To put it succinctly, ~~only two people have made intentionally offensive comments on this discussion, the other's comments were removed.~~

Cheers, Jaakobou 23:02, 11 September 2008 (UTC) update. 23:07, 11 September 2008 (UTC) strike 16:51, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Jaak, forgive me for interrupting, to be brutally honest, I don't think Nishdani's comments were in bad faith, and are more properly characterized as "pedantic" than "condescending". Nishdani (such as myself, I must admit) does tend less to compendiousness than most, and will often explain things at great length. However, I do not think he meant to attack you, but to explain why Tiamut would have responded as she did. Whether you agree with Tiamut's or Nishdani's facts and their interpretation is one thing. But as someone who lurks and monitors these various conversations, I think in this case, you may be responding with (understandable) defensiveness where it is not needed. Thanks. -- Avi (talk) 00:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

"Jaakobou. Though I can see how my remarks might strike you as 'condescending', please note I am aware of this impression when I write, and strive to avoid it"..."Secondly, if you read what I wrote there is absolutely no assumption of 'bad faith'. To the contrary, I attributed your deafness..." - Nishidani (talk) 08:43, 12 September 2008 (UTC) (click "" to see full text)
Jaakobou. Though I can see how my remarks might strike you as 'condescending', please note I am aware of this impression when I write, and strive to avoid it, though any advice from anyone can inevitably be construed as patronizing (my frequent advice to Ashley Kennedy, for example). Secondly, if you read what I wrote there is absolutely no assumption of 'bad faith'. To the contrary, I attributed your deafness to Tiamut's complaint to the fact that you, as a non-native speaker, used words whose resonant implications were probably not available to you, but were so to her. Thanks, Avi. Pedantic is the correct word, and I confess I often feel like a lumbering species of garrulous dinosaur in a world full of more evolved types, swiftly efficient in thought to the point of weariness with nuance, laconic to the point of glibness. I only ask that the finicky murmur from the paleobiological creature in the zoo that I am, at times, be respected by passers-by as something well-intentioned, not as some insinuation by a Iagoesque beast in subtly lethal attack mode, like the panther behind the bars in Rilke's Im Jardin des Plantes: a witness to a different mode of observation, now in desuetude, but, not for that, devoid of interest. Disputes, tiffs, conflicts can be papered over by waving a monitory flag to avert interlocutors of potential breaches in the wikiquette rule book. Flagging of this type shortcircuits understanding, because the code is too generic to capture the fugitive nuances in recurrent tensions. My occasional analyses at what must appear to be nauseous length, aspire to clarify some recondite dimensions that will always exist, perceptible between the lines, and that otherwise impatiently energetic wikipedians ignore as 'improductive' distractions, only to find that their disattention to nuance is itself productive of recurrent eruptions of simmering discontents. I will shortly suggest to Tiamut that this be dropped, and I suggest to Jaakobou that, as I said earlier, an ear for tone is essential for full mastery of a second language, and a certain capacity to twig potential conflict, and deftly sidestep temptations to press a trivial point, would further improve his work here. There, I've been tedious again. Back to Jurassic Park. Thanks, my friend, and best regards Nishidani (talk) 08:43, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

"Jaakobou. Though I can see how my remarks might strike you as 'condescending', please note I am aware of this impression when I write, and strive to avoid it"..."Secondly, if you read what I wrote there is absolutely no assumption of 'bad faith'. To the contrary, I attributed your deafness..." - Nishidani (talk) 08:43, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
(click "" to see full text)

Jaakobou. Though I can see how my remarks might strike you as 'condescending', please note I am aware of this impression when I write, and strive to avoid it, though any advice from anyone can inevitably be construed as patronizing (my frequent advice to Ashley Kennedy, for example). Secondly, if you read what I wrote there is absolutely no assumption of 'bad faith'. To the contrary, I attributed your deafness to Tiamut's complaint to the fact that you, as a non-native speaker, used words whose resonant implications were probably not available to you, but were so to her.

Thanks, Avi. Pedantic is the correct word, and I confess I often feel like a lumbering species of garrulous dinosaur in a world full of more evolved types, swiftly efficient in thought to the point of weariness with nuance, laconic to the point of glibness. I only ask that the finicky murmur from the paleobiological creature in the zoo that I am, at times, be respected by passers-by as something well-intentioned, not as some insinuation by a Iagoesque beast in subtly lethal attack mode, like the panther behind the bars in Rilke's Im Jardin des Plantes: a witness to a different mode of observation, now in desuetude, but, not for that, devoid of interest.

Disputes, tiffs, conflicts can be papered over by waving a monitory flag to avert interlocutors of potential breaches in the wikiquette rule book. Flagging of this type shortcircuits understanding, because the code is too generic to capture the fugitive nuances in recurrent tensions. My occasional analyses at what must appear to be nauseous length, aspire to clarify some recondite dimensions that will always exist, perceptible between the lines, and that otherwise impatiently energetic wikipedians ignore as 'improductive' distractions, only to find that their disattention to nuance is itself productive of recurrent eruptions of simmering discontents. I will shortly suggest to Tiamut that this be dropped, and I suggest to Jaakobou that, as I said earlier, an ear for tone is essential for full mastery of a second language, and a certain capacity to twig potential conflict, and deftly sidestep temptations to press a trivial point, would further improve his work here. There, I've been tedious again. Back to Jurassic Park. Thanks, my friend, and best regards Nishidani (talk) 08:43, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Discussion continued here. Jaakobou 16:52, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

"I am already risking accusations of running a blog. Briefly though, Jewish people in Israel have a strong double identity. It is often extremely difficult in these situations for many Israelis to understand how the ‘other’ people, whom history has denied both a state identity, and a national identity, can be distressed by a term, not of their choosing, that involves a double compromise, and, on one plane, an hyphenated identity of loss, rather than two positives" - Nishidani (talk) 17:41, 14 September 2008 (UTC) (click "" to see full text)
Jaakobou, I very much appreciate the time you've set aside now for an extensive review and reflection on this contretemps. I can see, and indeed, if you read closely, understood that you may well have had no intention to offend, and that what occurred, originally, may have arisen from a natural lack of full mastery of English (‘’soi-disant’’ bears the same pejorative sense as ‘self-professed’, with a stronger undertone). Languages are wonderful, but full of insidious traps. We mean to say one thing and are heard to say something else. Sometimes, what we consciously mean is suspected of betraying traces of an unconscious intent. Indeed, much to our grief, if we are honest with ourselves, we occasionally find that the unconscious intent was present in some instances. Freud wrote a marvellous book on this, Jokes and their relation to the unconscious, which rewards reading. Indeed it was Jewish intellectuals who were in the forefront of those who taught us to hear unintended resonances (without wishing to be blasphemous, this comes in good part from a rabbinical tradition dealing with the bat qol). Most conversations are at cross-purposes, because we fail to gain mastery over ourselves and the languages we use. As a general rule, if misunderstandings crop up, and someone is offended, we do well simply to apologize, whatever the pros and cons, without ifs and buts. Tiamut’s use of ‘Israeli’ was not derogatory, by the way. She said for most Palestinians in Israel, being called ‘Israeli-Arabs’ was slightly ‘insulting’. To explain why this does not snub Israel would require me to expatiate at great length on what is a very intricate problem of identity, and I forebear to do so because I am already risking accusations of running a blog. Briefly though, Jewish people in Israel have a strong double identity. It is often extremely difficult in these situations for many Israelis to understand how the ‘other’ people, whom history has denied both a state identity, and a national identity, can be distressed by a term, not of their choosing, that involves a double compromise, and, on one plane, an hyphenated identity of loss, rather than two positives (‘just Arabs, though distinct from all other Arabs, who have a state, and distinct from Israelis, who have a state in which Palestinians are recognized as citizens, but since it is a Jewish state not on a par with Jewish Israelis). We all are raised within honour codes, only they vary from culture to culture. Tiamut’s honour code, when spat on as a girl, was to say ‘thanks’ in public, and weep in private (we call this an honourable defeat, for the vanquished is the moral victor). A variation of the same honour code might have reacted with violence, but we would not think that ‘honourable’ . A strong society, (like a self-possessed person secure in his identity) particularly one as successful and culturally vibrant as Israel’s, is such because it can embrace criticism, rather than feel threatened by it. A self-assured society undermines itself if it is too defensive, for defensiveness in the strong is symptomatic of the frailty of uncertainty (the French adage runs:’Qui s’excuse, s’accuse) trumping the generosity of such values as tolerance and sometimes a unilateral apology, even if one may think that one personally has done nothing wrong. A good part of the Australian elections recently ran on the platform of ‘should the nation apologize to the aborigines’ or would such an apology be unnecessary, since, it was widely thought, Australians have nothing to apologize for (‘aborigines are all layabouts or drunkards’ was a widespread perception). The nation voted for Kevin Rudd, who then made a formal apology, unlike his predecessor Mr Howard who had no personal feeling of guilt and opposed the idea. For 15 years that had been banned by conservatives as a dangerous sign of weakness, and of ‘caving’ in to an ‘irresponsible’ constituency. Overnight, 90% of the electorate surprised itself by being moved, and proud. (Rudd had in mind what Willy Brandt did in Poland, kneeling before the Warsaw Ghetto, in what is known as the Warschauer Kniefall. Willy Brandt had nothing personally to apologize for, given his war record.) We live in small worlds, and nothing that occurs in them quite compares to these historic acts. Nothing in wiki crises can bear comparison to the complex reasons for such gestures. I note them because these things assist in looking beyond ourselves to the wider dimensions of a problem that otherwise might not engage us directly. I must cut this off because I worry about abuses of wiki space, and the tedium of my exchanges. Thanks then, for your reflection. It does you credit that you have 'wasted' time you might have preferred to use in way that you might think more productive, to re-examine the problem at some length for the benefit of a fellow wikipedian 'on the other side'. Nishidani (talk) 17:41, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

"I am already risking accusations of running a blog. Briefly though, Jewish people in Israel have a strong double identity. It is often extremely difficult in these situations for many Israelis to understand how the ‘other’ people, whom history has denied both a state identity, and a national identity, can be distressed by a term, not of their choosing, that involves a double compromise, and, on one plane, an hyphenated identity of loss, rather than two positives" - Nishidani (talk) 17:41, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
(click "" to see full text)

Jaakobou, I very much appreciate the time you've set aside now for an extensive review and reflection on this contretemps. I can see, and indeed, if you read closely, understood that you may well have had no intention to offend, and that what occurred, originally, may have arisen from a natural lack of full mastery of English (‘’soi-disant’’ bears the same pejorative sense as ‘self-professed’, with a stronger undertone). Languages are wonderful, but full of insidious traps. We mean to say one thing and are heard to say something else. Sometimes, what we consciously mean is suspected of betraying traces of an unconscious intent. Indeed, much to our grief, if we are honest with ourselves, we occasionally find that the unconscious intent was present in some instances. Freud wrote a marvellous book on this, Jokes and their relation to the unconscious, which rewards reading. Indeed it was Jewish intellectuals who were in the forefront of those who taught us to hear unintended resonances (without wishing to be blasphemous, this comes in good part from a rabbinical tradition dealing with the bat qol). Most conversations are at cross-purposes, because we fail to gain mastery over ourselves and the languages we use. As a general rule, if misunderstandings crop up, and someone is offended, we do well simply to apologize, whatever the pros and cons, without ifs and buts. Tiamut’s use of ‘Israeli’ was not derogatory, by the way. She said for most Palestinians in Israel, being called ‘Israeli-Arabs’ was slightly ‘insulting’. To explain why this does not snub Israel would require me to expatiate at great length on what is a very intricate problem of identity, and I forebear to do so because I am already risking accusations of running a blog. Briefly though, Jewish people in Israel have a strong double identity. It is often extremely difficult in these situations for many Israelis to understand how the ‘other’ people, whom history has denied both a state identity, and a national identity, can be distressed by a term, not of their choosing, that involves a double compromise, and, on one plane, an hyphenated identity of loss, rather than two positives (‘just Arabs, though distinct from all other Arabs, who have a state, and distinct from Israelis, who have a state in which Palestinians are recognized as citizens, but since it is a Jewish state not on a par with Jewish Israelis).

We all are raised within honour codes, only they vary from culture to culture. Tiamut’s honour code, when spat on as a girl, was to say ‘thanks’ in public, and weep in private (we call this an honourable defeat, for the vanquished is the moral victor). A variation of the same honour code might have reacted with violence, but we would not think that ‘honourable’ . A strong society, (like a self-possessed person secure in his identity) particularly one as successful and culturally vibrant as Israel’s, is such because it can embrace criticism, rather than feel threatened by it. A self-assured society undermines itself if it is too defensive, for defensiveness in the strong is symptomatic of the frailty of uncertainty (the French adage runs:’Qui s’excuse, s’accuse) trumping the generosity of such values as tolerance and sometimes a unilateral apology, even if one may think that one personally has done nothing wrong.

A good part of the Australian elections recently ran on the platform of ‘should the nation apologize to the aborigines’ or would such an apology be unnecessary, since, it was widely thought, Australians have nothing to apologize for (‘aborigines are all layabouts or drunkards’ was a widespread perception). The nation voted for Kevin Rudd, who then made a formal apology, unlike his predecessor Mr Howard who had no personal feeling of guilt and opposed the idea. For 15 years that had been banned by conservatives as a dangerous sign of weakness, and of ‘caving’ in to an ‘irresponsible’ constituency. Overnight, 90% of the electorate surprised itself by being moved, and proud. (Rudd had in mind what Willy Brandt did in Poland, kneeling before the Warsaw Ghetto, in what is known as the Warschauer Kniefall. Willy Brandt had nothing personally to apologize for, given his war record.)

We live in small worlds, and nothing that occurs in them quite compares to these historic acts. Nothing in wiki crises can bear comparison to the complex reasons for such gestures. I note them because these things assist in looking beyond ourselves to the wider dimensions of a problem that otherwise might not engage us directly. I must cut this off because I worry about abuses of wiki space, and the tedium of my exchanges. Thanks then, for your reflection. It does you credit that you have 'wasted' time you might have preferred to use in way that you might think more productive, to re-examine the problem at some length for the benefit of a fellow wikipedian 'on the other side'. Nishidani (talk) 17:41, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Iman Darweesh al-Hams

Jaakobou. Could you take a look at the lead of Iman Darweesh Al Hams? It looks like there's some technical confusion in the mark-up of line 1, since her birth-date is separated from the date of her death by some Arabic script. I played with seeing how it might be fixed, but only worsened it. You're very good on these technical things, so I thought you might just fix it. Hope it's no bother. Thanks Nishidani (talk) 13:39, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Done. Jaakobou 14:11, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Don't know what below refers to, but will look around.Nishidani (talk) 15:09, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Would be better if you put some time into mentoring PalestineRemembered to stop playing games and promoting the massacre narrative about the Battle of Jenin. Jaakobou 15:17, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

You know, for a person so sensitive to nationality issues, Tiamut sure doesn't have any qualms about trashing on Israel. Just now she insists on adding the suggestion that Israel "enjoyed" the 9.11 attacks, lending a hand to the usual antisemitic libels running around in the Arab world. Heck, not just insisting on it, but tag-team edit warring to keep it in an article despite external opinions of two uninvolved editors. Jaakobou 14:15, 18 September 2008 (UTC)