Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 14:44, 27 September 2008

Statement by Lysy

While I've been around at en.wikipedia since I think 2004, I've decided to quit or at least give it a break and I'm now on my self-imposed wikiholiday. Today I've recevied an email from Piotrus, asking to look at this rfa. Sincerely, I don't know Deacon of Pndapetzim and I don't know what prompted him to file this request, but after reading it, it seems to me to be full of compiled and/or fabricated accusations, and probably a part of a harassment campaign by tag teams against Piotrus, whom I had known as an editor who certainly respected the policies. The campaign to make him give up editing and leave the project just as I did. That kind of pestering by another editor was exactly the reason why I had decided to leave. --Lysy 19:41, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Since I'm not active here any more please use email if there's further need to contact me. Thanks.

Statement by Moreschi

This is probably a waste of time, but while we're here, could the arbcom please ban Matthead (talk · contribs)? I've come to the conclusion that this German nationalist flamer does more than most combined to foment a battleground mentality in EE articles (see current AE thread). I would do this myself, except all the people who don't like Piotrus for one reason or another would jump on me. Moreschi (talk) 21:38, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

• Matthead was Rex Germanus's old sparring partner. When Rex left he moved on to other edit wars. His participation is invariably marked by tendentious revert-warring and the personal hostility, massively divorced from objectivity, that does so much to harm the chances of collegial editing. I am contemplating a year-long block. Moreschi (talk) 21:52, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
• ArbCom does not need yet another round of Irpen-Piotrus, the issues there are more personality clashes than anything else. For what it's worth, Piotrus is certainly a patriot, and obviously his edits usually have a certain slant to them, but he is open and honest about his biases, which is, you know, what we should encourage. He writes well and is a fine Wikipedian. Irpen is also a fine writer, but I dislike the way he is nowhere near honest enough about his own biases and WP:NATIONALISTICBATTLE tendencies. He also is a real blocking factor in trying to deal with the worst excesses of his Russian compatriots (compare the way Piotrus was constructive in trying to reach a decent solution with myself over Molobo). There's certainly space enough in Misplaced Pages for both of them, but Irpen needs to think seriously. Escalating the conflict here will not, I think, ultimately prove to be to his benefit. At any rate, I see no serious enough issues with either of them to warrant AC attention, unlike the much more pressing issues of people like Matthead. Moreschi (talk) 13:23, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment by AGK

From what evidence I have, issuing sanctions on Matthead (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) would be a net-positive for the project, and a good move. I don't think we need the committee's involvement to do that, however: the community has not, from what I gather, exhausted all means of banning him available to it (bar the ArbCom). Anthøny ✉ 21:49, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Irpen

In my opinion the WP:BATTLE issue is central here and the concept of WP:BATTLE alone allows to understand fully the core problem with Piotrus. Most but all of his Misplaced Pages activity is a battle and he is vicious at that.

For the sake of brevity, I want to concentrate my statement on the most revealing manifestation of his approach: Piotrus' central concept of dispute resolution lies in setting the field of his opponents' blocks and being an experienced editor he achieved certain expertise at that. He mastered the methods of baiting content opponents into a reaction that would later allow him to turn the discussion's subject to WP:CIV (which he uses as a tool in content disputes not a guideline for harmonious editing) and paint his opponents as violators of the civility rules, usually baselessly.

Piotrus thrives not in honest discussions but in off-line secretive communications, recruiting users for reverts and votes, building connections with "important people" (off-line whenever possible) who he thinks would be useful for him, logging every step of his perceived enemies for anything he could use against them at the opportune time.

During his last arbcom a secret page in his pl-wiki userspace where he maintained his log on every single content opponent was accidentally revealed (see Piotrus compiled a pile of "incriminating_diffs" against his opponents). Upon the page's discovery and discussion, he claimed to have been happy to turn the page and end his logging. But this is what he really did:

1. He blanked the page that became a public knowledge with "not needed" edit summary on 2007-10-10 20:28:02 (note the exact time stamp)
2. He immediately logged out and from an IP he within three minutes (!) at 2007-10-10 20:31:13 he pasted entire content of this "not needed" stuff into a different page for further development.

He continuously and meticulously maintains that black book to this day but edits it only being logged out to avoid detection of the activity, he himself realizes as shameful. And look at what kind of diffs he finds "useful" to keep for the opportune time!

Here are some comments on the malaise, as he claims, by his opponents supposedly supported by the links. Comments come from many respected and high profile Wikipedians:

• Piotrus' unloading of the log he compiled on myself into an unrelated case:
  • comment by Geogre: The diffs showing "incivility" didn't show incivility on Irpen's part
  • Comment by Bishonen: Irpen really doesn't have such a history (of personal attacks). I appeal to you and others to click on the diffs which supposedly exemplify those "personal attacks and incivility"
  • Comment by Newyorkbrad: the findings and remedy directed at established contributor Irpen strike me as harsh and excessive
  • Comment by Geogre: you must distinguish the instigation and the response, the piling on and the campaign. In fact, Irpen seems to me to have gone well above and beyond to not get into spitball exchanges.
  • Comment by Alex Bakharev: Frankly found no Arbcom-level incivilty there.... Not a single diff in the section relates here... Most of the diffs are parts of an interesting discussion... I see the discussion to be useful and reasonably civil.

Another example:

• Piotrus' unloading of the log he compiled on Lokyz to WP:AE, which became his favorite block shopping venue once WP:RFI and WP:PAIN and WP:CSNB were shut down by the community largely for their being abused that way despite of his protestations during the deletion discussions:
  • Comment by myself: Analysis showing none of his diffs warrant any action
  • Comment by Angus McLellan: Seems to me that Irpen is right in much - but not all - of what he says....I think any point that needs to be made has been made, so I'd like to see Lokyz unblocked now.
  • Comment by Alex Bakharev Irpen's analysis show that many diffs indicated by Piotrus are quite good. If anything their mentioning by Piotrus in the blocking context warrants a warning by an uninvolved admin to Piotrus for assumption of the bad faith. Other diffs are less than ideal but still relatively mild. If we assume to uniformly apply those requirements we might find 3/4 of the editors involved into Eastern European topics to be banned. Myself and Piotrus will be certainly included. Do we need it
  • Comment by Elonka: I have reviewed the diffs that Piotrus supplied, as well as Irpen's response to them. I don't feel that Piotrus's complaint is "clean". Some of his claims of incivility, do not look uncivil to me, they look like reasonable civil comments that are being used to discuss sources that are regarded as unreliable. I am also concerned that Piotrus came straight to AE, rather than first warning Lokyz at his talkpage.

There were other discussions of Piotrus' ridiculous "diffs" but it is not easy to find every thread from so long ago. I can do so if the case gets accepted and Piotrus unloads another pile from his stack at everyone he sees as an obstacle. These are nothing but fraudulent gaming the system and misuse of various policies but WP:BATTLE approach to Misplaced Pages editing is the core of the problem.

Oh, and before he or anyone claims "stalking", I did not discover his secret page by following him (and I could not even if I went to pl-wiki since he edits the page always logged out from many different IP's.) I found the page by mere accident as it showed up in google when, during some wikipolitics discussion, I was looking for some old thread that I knew should have been in Misplaced Pages archives. His page showed up in my google results and made me disgusted beyond belief, especially the fact that it was recreated in such a sneaky way after claimed ceasure of such activity. I had no desire to follow what he was doing there as simply seeing it made me feel like I need to take a shower. This is not a kind of feeling one usually relish, so I did not look forward for the new immersion into that laundry list of grievances. But the very feeling that I was being meticulously stalked and logged (not that I have anything to hide but still) is something any of you can only understand if you get such a dedicated attention yourself. Especially, if while he does that, he attempts to make an impression of reaching out in a friendly-sounding innuendo, while logging the reaction.

I would like to reiterate that I am not seeking punishment of Piotrus for maintaining a black book on a page outside of en-wiki. I am merely saying that this page is the strongest possible evidence that Piotrus' approach to editing Misplaced Pages falls exactly under WP:BATTLE and WP:BATTLING is a sanctionable offense.

As for the usual stuff posted by Piotrus above, I'm confident anyone who is looking will see through it. Alden's own assertion here was that Piotrus asked him to do revert for him , so it doesn't look like poor old harassed Piotrus's love-fest with his adoring "fans" is quite the way he'd like his readers to believe, though admittedly Alden appears to love him enough to co-operate with the public distancing that's been arranged since Alden's "slip". As for Piotrus' boasting about his "excellent" content, I link to my assessment here to save space.

I told him long time ago that there is one thing he should stop, trying to win content disputes through achieving the opponents' blocks. He always denied his doing that. I leave it to others to decide. His diffs are mostly tendentious nonsense he uses to misrepresent the conflicts and overwhelm with "evidence". Examples are in the threads above. If this is not WP:BATLE at its prime, I do not know what is.

Statement by User:Novickas

Three points. 1) This entry does not mention a block or ban, so his content creation is not relevant; it would not be hindered. 2) The following action strikes me as an abuse of admin powers - his threat to block User:Boodlesthecat after B removed a clear BLP violation: he stated that "Next time you change other's users talk I will simply block you for vandalism" , confirmation of BLP violation here From May 2008. 3). User:FloNight firmly opposed his self-nom as an administrator on Wikimedia . Why, if he was deemed unfit to be an admin there, should he remain as an admin here? Novickas (talk) 22:51, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I hope that "examination of others involved", brought up by several statements and Kirill, will be reconsidered. Yes, many editors have lost their tempers while interacting with him. But could we not limit this action to a more manageable scope by addressing Deacon's original questions: whether Piotrus' behavior has been admin-like, whether he has been a member of edit-warring teams, and whether/how such behavior by an admin sets a bad example for other editors?

Much of the following goes to the question of whether or not admins should be held to a higher standard than editors.

Use of sources

Many of these conflicts involved a lot of time and energy on the part of various editors - could have been spared if P had just backed off; no acknowlegment of error on his part was ever made in these cases AFAIK:

• Use of questionable websites as sources: Patryk Dole . Future battles: this FA relies mostly on the Polish Militaria Collectors Association (); this FA likewise is mostly referenced by whatfor.com, "Your lifestyle resource" , and someone's blog. Six of his FAs have been delisted so far - I would think more will be, as standards rise, but probably each delisting will be a battle.

• Use of clearly awful sources: Dariusz Ratajczak removed by me on 15:20, March 20, 2008 after waiting for P to do so himself. Piotrus had earlier asserted his credibility here:

• Questionable use of good sources: , ,

• Extended battle over the use of a hoax book as a reference:

• Much of his content creation is unsourced - see the new articles created within the past week or two: Lesko uprising, Battle of Pęcice, Battle of Kamianets-Podilskyi, Ferdinand II Hohenstein, Hotseat (multiplayer mode).

Additional conduct-unbecoming-an-admin issues

• Goading: "Yes, as the history has shown, Germany and Russia proven to be true great friends of the Lithuanian nation, indeed." .

• Inserting a copyvio that stood until it was pointed out by Irpen:

• Unsuccessfully putting an article up for AFD followed by the comment "glad to see the AfD had a positive effect" (I don't know exactly where WP currently stands on the issue of filing AFDs for that purpose, but it seems disruptive.)

• Removing referenced material until JPGordon intervened: But we shouldn't need intervention at that level - JP was just stating WP policy. Novickas (talk) 17:21, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Procedural remark by Mackensen

No fair poking the clerks Brad--just doing what you told them to do. Course, it's your page, so you can break it however you like. More seriously, I don't see much point in accepting unless Arbcom really wants another go-round in Eastern Europe and has a better idea for addressing the topical conflicts there. Mackensen (talk) 23:42, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't tell them to do it. But then again, in my real-world life, I am constantly struggling to stay within page limits. (And I know this comment doesn't belong here either. So sue me, except please don't.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:57, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Tymek

I have seen groups (tag teams?) of editors gunning for Piotrus ever since I joined this project. User Matthead, mentioned by AGK and Moreschi, is probably the most active editor in the "Greater Germany POV tag team". Irpen has been gunning for Piotrus for years, I recall last ArbCom found his behavior very uncivil, particularly to Piotrus. This seems unchanged, just like his tactics of repreating the same old accusations that failed to gain support in the past discussions.

PS. Piotrus has the full right to collect evidence - just like anybody else - and we all can see he badly needs evidence, since he is targeted by those "tag teams" all the time. On the other hand, Irpen did a "great" job tracking Piotrus evidence list... I find it amusing that he is (again) offended by the list of his wrongdoings, which he found after probably many, many hours of stalking Piotrus edits. Thank you Tymek (talk) 04:27, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Observation by Martintg

Holy cow, Irpen's first day back after a month long Wikibreak and he doesn't miss an opportunity to engage in WP:BATTLE himself against his long time opponent Piotrus, recycling old diffs and past accusations from previous years. Irpen has been waging war against Piotrus for years across a number of boards. This is tiresome and it has to stop. Irpen has been warned often enough about this in previous cases. Could Arbcom please ban Irpen, there seems to be considerably less drama in Misplaced Pages whenever he is on extended wikibreak, and his return always seems to coincide with yet another EE arbcom case, this time mounted in conjunction with his cohort Deacon of Pndapetzim. It must be noted that Deacon, as former User Calgacus, has had a long history with conflict with Polish editors, particularly Piotrus, notoriously beginning with the article Jogaila back in 2006 . This following exchange during the discussion to promote Jogaila to featured article status provides some insight to Deacon's palpable hostility in the face of attempts by Piotrus to engage him in a dialog:

• I would argue, and I'm sure so would others, that that statement is complete nonsense. Jogaila needed the superior Poles to save him from conquest from the Order? Polish nationalist myth. Funny how Lithuania had done alright before and had grown to five times larger than Poland. I dunno, maybe Jogaila didn't mind getting another kingdom to crush the Order and expand his own power, but to imply Lithuania faced desperation ... would like to see how these historians sustain that argument. If anything, fear of continued isolation, being surrounded by christian states, may have played some role in his decision, but most of Jogaila's lands lay out of reach of TO campaigns. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 15:06, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
• I'd be quite interesting in seeing you present a source that supports your POV and calls the opposite a 'Polish nationalist myth'.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 16:54, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
• Yeah, it's fascinating. Must be another conspiracy between the ghosts of Stalin and Hitler to destroy the Polish nation. Congrats for discovering it! Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 17:11, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
• If this is your reply when asked for sources, I guess there is no point in continuing this discussion.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:26, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
• You asked me about sources? In what parallel universe? If this is your reply when asked if you support human rights, then I guess there's no point going on. You must just be evil. :p Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 17:37, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Deacon of Pndapetzim's polophobic attitude is further demonstrated more recently this year when he was only one to support Irpen's vexatious nomination of the article Soviet_repressions_of_Polish_citizens_(1939-1946) for deletion within 24 hours of its creation by Piotrus, with a borderline racist spray against Poles and their "nationalist god of victimhood". The result was an over whelming snowball keep. If you closely read Deacon's talk page and edit comments in the article that triggered this current Arbcom case, his hostility and combativeness hasn't really diminished since the first time he conflicted with Piotrus. --Martintg (talk) 14:53, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Observation by Durova

Irpen is one of the most dedicated editors Misplaced Pages has, and he seems sincere. He can also be difficult to communicate with. I first noticed this during a delicate phase of the Piotrus-Ghirlandajo mediation when Irpen interrupted an ongoing discussion with input that was not helpful. When I asked him to withdraw he developed a personal dislike for me (he later stated so). Yet I wouldn't have anticipated that personal feelings, however strong, could have such an effect as the following quote.

I had been attempting to patch up a misunderstanding between Irpen and myself, and had suggested that perhaps the the tone had come across badly because we were communicating only in text. His response misread that neutral statement as an invitation to communicate off-wiki (which it wasn't), and took offense based upon the misreading. I don't take offense easily and wouldn't bring his reply to the attention of the Committee, except for this bon mot:

The post-!! development of Alex Bakharev's being duped into believing of anonymous harassment of female editors fairy tale just enforced my firm belief in an advantage of onwiki conversations.

About two weeks after Irpen scolded me for duping Alex Bakharev into believing a fairy tale that harassment of female editors occurs, the FBI opened an investigation into months of death threats that were being sent to me from a stable location within driving distance of my home. In order to promote public awareness that this sort of thing actually happens, and in hopes of making the situation less difficult for other people who get targeted, I went public about the experience in a story that was published in P2Pnet News in early June. Despite these developments, Irpen has never withdrawn the misplaced accusation.

In light of the recent retirement of two other editors--both much younger than I am--who were targeted for harassment, and encountered open hostility from the community when they disclosed the problem, and who made serious errors in judgement afterward--it is quite concerning that an editor of Irpen's experience conducts himself this way without challenge or correction (obviously I was not in a position to comment further). This is indicative of a senior editor who is setting the wrong example and I wonder how many other problems have been worsened by his participation. I would gladly withdraw this statement if Irpen reconsiders his; it would restore some of my faith in him. Durova 16:38, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Boodlesthecat

Novickas cited one instance of my ongiong conflicts with Piotrus above. That instance is illustrative of a serious problem with Poitrus' behavior and his flagrant misuse of his admin status. I note that in his self-nom, he requested that status to facilitate his uploading of images to Misplaced Pages. A year later, it appears to have become a tool to be used for the benefit of apparently ethnic based team edit warring. Novickas cite the case in which Piotrus angrily threatened to block me for removing a clear BLP violation (and one with antisemitic overtones). The particular nasty, offensive BLP violation was supplied by greg park avenue who spent much of his time (in full view of Piotrus, among others) peppering the page with abusive, Jew baiting rants. A cursory examination reveals that greg park avenue apparently contributes little or no actual content to Misplaced Pages, instead opting for running commentaries in a variety of forums, often with a nasty streak. So why would Piotrus aggressively threaten to block me for removing some of the foul words that greg park avenue contributed? A hint can be obtained by perusing the history of the article in question, as well as some others in which Piotrus has had ongoing disputes (e.g., here, and we can see the key role greg park avenue has played in the team edit warring (I'm not going to waste time pulling diffs; anyone can do their own examination and see how Piotrus, greg park avenue, Tymek, Poeticbent, Molobo, Alden Jones et al operate in tandem.) And then, Piotrus files the inevitable 3RR complaint (often exaggerating the number of reverts, eg, counting every edit made as a revert). Piotrus' questionable tactics have been noted more than once (e.g. here and here). Piotrus pulled the team-edit-war-then-file-a-3RR on me maybe half a dozen times (yes, I'm a sucker). On the final one, I pleaded with him to not do it again, but to discuss issues like an adult--90 minutes later came the 3RR--prompting an unkind email from me accusing him of dickkery (although there were at least some editors who felt my pain.) . I've since attempted to extract myself from this nonsense by among other things opening a medcab case for one of the disputed articles. That case quickly degenerated into chaos, as Piotrus' "team" bogged the discussion down with accusations, filibusters, and assorted flims flams (anything to avoid discussing actual content issues). Piotrus repeatedly demanded semi-groveling apologies from me to secure his participation (while he let loose a stream of accusatory abuse), but even while agreeing to the medcab, he continued to stealthily forum shop for ways to block me] (unsuccessfully) from editing his pet articles. So I leave it top the wisdom of this forum as to whether the innocent reasons for Piotrus' original self-nom have devolved in any manner, way, shape or form. Boodlesthecat 20:58, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Prom3th3an's Repsonse to Comments by Boodlesthecat

The following message contains my personal views and is given in my role as a User, Editor and nothing else.
Boodlesthecat, I find your remarks misguided and biased to say the least. With your conduct in the past such as sending insulting of wiki emails and of course your rathor colourful blocklog, you have been lucky not to be indef blocked. I hardly think an apologie was out of order, as for demanding it, I was also of the opinion that it was a reasonable request. I find this comment Piotrus, greg park avenue, Tymek, Poeticbent, Molobo, Alden Jones et al operate in tandem. most disturbing, would you provide some reasonable evidence of this occuring on multiple occasions and that there is a conspiracy to do so? I will further extend this reply in the morning as its 1:38 am ;-)   «l| Ψrom3th3ăn ™|l»  (talk)}}

Boodlesthecat's Response to Prom3th3an's Response to Comments by Boodlesthecat

I fully stand by my comments. Your entirely ad hominem response/attack addresses exactly zero of the concrete issues I raised and documented. And as the mediator in the current dispute, you yourself have witnessed the very behavior I am describing. Perhaps you should revisit when the hour is not so late. And "conspiracy" is your word, not mine, so I feel no obligation to provide evidence for anything beyond what I actually described. I apologized for my e-mail, as requested, and was rewarded in that mediation for my apology with a torrent of abuse and filibustering. Where is Piotrus' apology for his blatant and flagrant misuse of authority in threatening to block me for removing anti-semitic BLP violating rantings of his ally? Where is your request for his apology? Boodlesthecat Meow? 16:41, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

• Addenda: OK, the inexplicable hostility of Prom3th3an seems to have been addressed properly. Although the odd apparent collusion of this mediator with Piotrus from the very beginning of the mediation (complete with ":;" "winks"), culminating in Prom3th3an's open declaration of allegiance to Piotrus' side of the mediation and threats to use extra means to achieve his ends ("I am now throwing my weight around")--mimicking Piotrus' own threats to abuse his authority--seems perhaps more than coincidental and certainly not unrelated to the issues being looked at in this arbitration. Boodlesthecat 18:17, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

• WP:SPINDOCTOR A few points of consideration, A) Most people are aware that it was no coinsidence that Sciurinæ, an outsider who is a wiki friend of boodles commented, one must wonder who's tag teaming now, or is he your puppet? B) Any statement that implys that I was POV or colluding at the very start of the case with a user of which I had no interaction with prior to that is a farse. C) Do ordinery users not have weight? because thats what I was reffering to. D) My hostility toward you was as a result of a case I should have never accepted, the reasons I say that it because the case looked disceptivly easy, untill another 6 pov's were added once I had accepted the case as a result of your poor choices of "who to include". I do agree on one thing and that is that I failed as a mediator, I let the stress of the bickering and conflict of the case get to me, hence my otherwise irrational attack at arbcom, for that I am sorry.   «l| Ψrom3th3ăn ™|l»  (talk) 12:20, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm free to comment on which ever case I choose to. After your pompous performance for Piotrus, I had a look at the mediation case of my own free will. If you want to dispute the content of what I said, just go ahead. If you don't like the fact that it was me who made the comment, still try to stick to the content if you can. It's strange to think that suddenly wild and unexplained "tag team" and "puppet" accusations should be allowed even if there's nothing disruptive to go for. If "teamwork" does not happen for a bad deed, but consists of a person who says something that helps another, how would this be bad in itself? Before you think you were in part right: I was not asked by anyone implicitly or explicitly to make a comment, and I did not even inform anyone about my comment, let alone expect another person to use it - yes, I was actually surprised that Boodles took the diff. Please take a look at WP:PA and WP:AGF. Nor am I a "puppet" and I don't feel I have to put up with an accusation like this. As for the content of my statement, it was skewed in your favour. While you said it was Boodles who was drifting towards indef-block, it was actually you (and only you) who had been warned of the possibility of an indef-block a few days before ( ) and I didn't point that out then. Sciurinæ (talk) 21:14, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Poeticbent

I find these never-ending Arbcom swarmings really pathetic, with all the usual suspects getting all fired up and queasy with numbing repetitiousness, every few months. What a terrible waste of time for everybody. I’ve never seen so much bad blood between Eastern European nations anywhere outside of here. Perhaps the bad blood was already brewing in the hearts of these people without an outlet for a long time, and now it just spills out in all its repulsiveness, bouts of extreme chauvinism, hate mongering and the like. I’m asking myself, can Misplaced Pages be an outlet for a personal soul-searching? I suppose it can. But please, don’t drag my name around whenever the new wave of character assassinations begin to bubble up. --Poeticbent talk 17:51, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Observation by Ghirla

Following the disgusting circus show, in which Piotrus was found innocent of all charges, I quit English Misplaced Pages (my activity has been limited to occasional interwiki fixing) and became one of the foremost editors of Russian Misplaced Pages. I am thankful to Piotrus and the Arbitration Committee for showing me a battlefree wikipedia community in which no duplicity is allowed. This latest attempt to bring Piotrus to reason is unlikely to succeeed as long as the likes of Kirill Lokshin (who famously found Bishonen to be a "problem user" and has waged multiple anti-Giano campaigns) and James F. (who even more famously called us all "idiots") preside over ArbCom. It's a shame what they've done to English Misplaced Pages. The only result of this case will be to drive Piotrus' detractors out of English Misplaced Pages, as I have been. --Ghirla 06:52, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Statement by M.K.

I am the one who started the first ArbCase involving Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus. And frankly speaking I am not surprised that there is another case involving this contributor. I have to agree for the most part about Piotrus' editing problems.

If you ever had dispute with Piotrus, you would probably know that he converts the whole situation into a messy battlefield, employing revert wars, tendentious editing, rollback abuse, blocks and block threats, page moves immediately followed by salting the resulting redirects, as well as hypocritical dishonest forum shopping (including #admins IRC) etc.

All those techniques were employed against fellow wikipedians recently, including #admins IRC abuse where his opponets, myself included, were called "POV trolls" and sockpuppeteers.

Attempts to reduce his tendentious editing with DR steps pose a challenge, as Piotrus chooses to go against consensus as he finds fit . When community rejects his original thoughts, then another stage of waging war is employed – forum shopping. When he does not get the support in the first forum he asks in another one going around from board to board.

Last, but not least, the most "lucrative" step is attempting to gain a block/ suspension/restriction, which outcome is usually used for future character assassination of his opponents. It is usually done by firstly provoking opponents (edit summaries implying historical whitewashing is already a blockable offense) later filing a complaint (most favorite is WP:AE). Already such Piotrus "cases" were identified as unclean attempts. But those are coming and coming over and over again. Who knows, maybe some of them will produce some desirable "results" and "victory" in another battle.

Also most of problems about this contributor listed back in 2007 process are valid and just as topical today, I would not over expand my statement, as if arbiters will choose to take this case (I encourage this to do) I will present more evidences and reinforce already mentioned ones. M.K. (talk) 21:57, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Stor stark7

I've been on traveling foot for the last few weeks, and my access will remain very spotty for a few days until I'm back. I will attempt to refactor with more info then. I've encountered Piotrus mainly in connection to edits by Molobo, Piotrus seems to have taken on the role of defender of Polands honor, at all costs. I suppose that's borderline for an ordinary user, but unsuitable behaviour for an admin. As of late Piotrus has taken to accuse me of being a Nazi, which is seriously inapropriate behaviour. For more info and the relevant diff see my request for comment by Moreschi.--Stor stark7 12:30, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Biophys

I withdrew my statement yesterday as not to be involved in this mess. But this becomes a witch hunt. No, Stor stark7, Piotrus did not call you "Nazi" as obvious from the diffs. I had relatively little interaction with Piotrus, but it was very constructive and positive interaction, and I admire the outstanding quality of articles Piotrus has created or contributed. Unfortunately, I can not tell the same about my interactions with Irpen. If this case has any merit (and I do not think it has), this is only to investigate the accusers. Piotrus was a subject of already two previous trials. How many more witch hunts do we need? Biophys (talk) 15:36, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Piotrus said that many administrators "are in fear of tag teams". True, but Piotrus himself is a rare exception. He did not fear. That is why he became the target. But how about "ordinary" users who are not administrators? While editing here, I live in a state of fear to alienate the "team" that collectively own such articles as Putin, Russia and many others, which would be gladly approved by the Soviet Glavlit. One of the members told me in open not to edit anything in article Russia, "or else". And I would think twice before providing any evidence against Irpen. Let me be frank. Some political/history parts of wikipedia has became a "battleground" where every good editor like Piotrus needs to be protected. This became a place of fear, a virtual hell, as anyone can see from the numerous ArbComm hearings, including this one. I know at least one good editor who experienced mental problems after editing here. Others quit to keep their sanity. No wonder.Biophys (talk) 20:05, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Question to clerks or ArbComm members: What exactly issues are under review here? Biophys (talk) 20:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Vecrumba

Witch-hunt seems appropriate:

• Deacon of Pndapetzim ... regarding the article in question, it was stable and GA. An RFA is not the place to hash out whose editorial position is right or wrong. Deacon's comments in article talk are not always in a tone soliciting dialog, this RFA is nothing but Deacon making editorial disagreement into a full out battle.
• Irpen ... Irpen has hardly been back and he's already flogging Piotrus yet again with every ounce of bolded denouncement he can muster.
• Boodlesthecat ... What have your allegations of "Jew baiting" on the part of Greg park avenue have to do with Piotrus? Tarring all Polish editors with the same brush? And what will I find if I go back through the entire trail? I have not found Greg park avenue to be an extremist in past interactions.
• M.K. ... OK, let's take Piotrus adding "and ]<ref name="NCMH"/>, tying ] to the ].". And reputably sourced. Of course the baptism of Jogaila was the first step away from pagan rituals and toward the Polonization of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. This is hardly Piotrus' OR or some controversial item requiring "consensus."

As far as I can tell, we've got irreconcilable editorial differences leading to Deacon's RFA. I've dealt with some sticky issues between Polish and Lithuanian editors and sources (including some of the parties here). Differences are not insurmountable when one assumes good faith. What I see here is a mound of accusations built on the bad faith mantra against Piotrus with all the usual anti-Piotrus editors jumping on the bandwagon, including Irpen's tome after just having returned to WP spouting the same tired accusations, not to mention Ghirla's chiming in with "this is why I left EN WP." This is just repeat performance of "lynch Eastern European editors who stand up for themselves," I'm sorry to say. —PētersV (talk) 23:03, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the accusation: "Continued edit-warring and battling, in particular edit-warring with and provoking Lithuanian editors" this is not the case, as I've been asked to assist in charting a middle course amongst conflicting often Polish and Lithuanian sources over the conduct of the Polish and Lithuanian sides leading to, and in, WWII: who collaborated with whom, etc. These are good faith disagreements which by necessity provoke strong feelings. That this is a war is a gross mischaracterization based on the premise that Piotrus' editorial behavior comes from unethical behavior, not defense of reputable sources. Moreover, this mischaracterization demonstrates a complete lack of understanding for the basis of true disagreement amongst reputable nationalist sources (as opposed to the Soviet "version" of Eastern European history). —PētersV (talk) 22:34, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I have subsequently reviewed Boodlesthecat's entire "Jew baiting" thread being accused and this is purely Boodlesthecat's personal interpretation having nothing to do with the factual objective content of Greg park avenue's statement in the diff nor Greg park avenue's position as stated throughout that entire thread. Don't like it? Call your editorial opposition an anti-Semite, Nazi, Jew-murdering nationality, etc., a behavior generally devoid of any consequences for editors making such accusations, I'm sorry to observe. —PētersV (talk) 16:59, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Statement by DGG

I've been involved in one or two attempted mediation on Central European articles, involving Piotrus and some of the other editors, involved here. It has not been entirely a matter of Poles vs. Lithuanians--conflicts in this area , real-world and Wikipedian, are not usually merely two-sided. And it is not to be expected that the enmities accumulated over centuries will be settled on Misplaced Pages , or that disputes over the rights and wrongs of the thousands of contentious events in that history will be resolved here. Nobody from the area can really be expected to be neutral; however, of the various editors involved, the one who has seemed to be to have the most respect for Misplaced Pages policy is Piotrus. He certainly edits in accordance with his knowledge and background, as any editor does, but he edits fairly. He does not reject good opposing sources, nor try to gain acceptance for clearly unreliable supporting ones. He understands that the mere quotation of excerpts does not prove a general point, and translation and context is necessary. He knows the weaknesses expected from various kinds of sources, and uses them accordingly. If people not directly involved tend to support his positions frequently, there's a reason--they are usually fairly close to being correct. He's also generally objective within the standards of Misplaced Pages --it is very easy to make accusations of political bias where everyone has some degree of it, but he does not accept or reject material solely on the basis of the editors involved, and he tries to achieve generally the clearest wording, not the one that can be most twisted to accommodate his position. I see some of the support for this RfA as an attempt to win at RfA what can not be won in talk pages--to impugn an editor by peripheral attack whose work is reliable. Those who can not win by logic or by sourcing are trying to win here; but they here too have neither the arguments nor the evidence to back up their charges. I'm confident an examination of the material will show where sanctions are truly needed, and I think it a great merit of our RfA system that it will examine the actions of all the parties involved. DGG (talk) 02:35, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Sciurinæ

Piotrus revealed in July 2006 that he had Gadu-Gadu contact with Molobo. Piotrus wanted to "prove" that his behaviour towards Molobo was critical and, though never ever having given any warnings to Molobo, he argued that he did so on GG. He conceded as explanation that he "didn't want to leave permanent record on his talk pages. In the end it apparently wasn't enough" (a few days earlier, Molobo had been blocked for a year). Piotrus - whose sympathy for Molobo knows no limits in reality - proved not only to be aware of the unaccountability resulting from the use of GG, but wanted to benefit from it:

1. (before the block) by being able to criticise Molobo for bad actions without the criticism being able to be used against Molobo, whom Piotrus not wanted to be blocked
2. (after the block) by using the fact that he "criticised" him as "proof" of the appropriateness of his behaviour towards Molobo (actually that proved the opposite even more).

Molobo didn't know about the revelation of their IM-relationship and believed that finding out about it was near impossible, blatantly declaring: "I don't know Piotrus besides Misplaced Pages-we are in no personal connection". Btw, how come Tymek and Appleseed knew of Piotrus' Rfa in commons other than GG ( + I remember him canvassing at Rfa long ago)? Why did Piotrus, when blocked, aggravated by making a horrific threat against the uninvolved administrator who executed the block and by arguing that he should have different treatment from the norm before the 3rr, turn to a consistently friendly ( ) sysop to dismiss this valid 3RR-block on incorrect grounds?

There must be a sensible and practical approach to this issue that sees the borders between acceptable and unacceptable use of secret communication. We cannot know for sure whether Piotrus told the truth when he said it wasn't him who told Alden Jones to revert and, for example, not every user who passes on his MSN number does so with bad intent, not every time someone informs another person about a revert war with the intention of getting a favourable result or the whole 3RR-board would be bad. What we have to consider is the appropriateness in the relevant situation and the appropriateness in the result, and treat secrecy as an aggravating factor if there is inappropriateness in either the situation or the result.

Furthermore, Piotrus' role in naming disputes and towards certain disruptive Polish editors should be shed light on, as well as assumptions of bad faith, blank denial and personal attacks (admins should be role models). We all know about Piotrus' prolificness regarding content but adminship shouldn't be seen as a reward and Piotrus has made very little use of his admin rights as a vandalism fighter or anywhere else. It only serves him as an additional authority argument for personal attacks and assumptions of bad faith and leads others to take knee-jerk actions in his favour. Sciurinæ (talk) 22:23, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

• Reply to Molobo: I do not have your contributions on my watchlist and don't remember claiming so. As for your comment to Irpen, yes, claiming that Piotrus, who you now admit is on your GG buddy list, was "just a fellow co-editor not my friend" and "I don't know Piotrus besides Misplaced Pages-we are in no personal connection" is intentionally misleading since instant messenger contact is a personal connection and that relationship to him is more than that of "just a fellow co-editor".

I'm curious why I should justify an official rename from 2005, and even despite the fact that you already tried in vain to vilify me because of it years ago (Talk:Anti-Polish_sentiment#Regarding_revisionism). But then again, Deacon has been subject to exactly the same situation. Seeing you insinuating to one that a change of username was foul, setting you (the only person who ever did so) straight, suddenly later getting vilified again by you (who should actually now know better) in a general attempt at character assassination is an odd déjà vu. Arbitrations, for your and Piotrus' information, are not exempt from personal attacks () and since you are on parole and the other a sysop, it's unbelievable to have to tell you this. Sciurinæ (talk) 14:44, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Observation by Termer

It didn't took long to figure out what is this all about? Such a question arised for me since none of the accusations against Piotrus have any evidence provided as far as I can tell. But thanks to Deacon of Pndapetzim for adding the article Boleslaw I's interventio to the case here, a content dispute where it seems it all has started. What I see is that Piotrus has edited the article according to the sources he has available and all his edits have been reverted. One of the reasons for the reverts given that should speak for itself has been following: respected historians of medieval Rus don't write in Polish by Deacon of Pndapetzim.
That makes it clear at least for me that Deacon of Pndapetzim dosn't respect historians on medieval Rus who write in Polish. Since the historic facts are straight forward. Medival Rus was split between Lithuania-Poland and Mongol Empire, the split that exists until modern times in the form of 2 countries: Ukraine and Russia, the Polish historians might have a take on the subject. According to WP:NPOV, in case multiple POV-s exist, each should be presented fairly. And at the same time the policy doesn't say anything that sources-historians should by respected differently based on their nationality or languages they use like it has been suggested by Deacon of Pndapetzim.
Seems like a content dispute gone bad, at least one side has used clearly racist statements to support the opinions and as a last resort has turned to ArbCom.--Termer (talk) 23:55, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Observation by Xavexgoem

This comment is entirely concerning the Boodles vs. Piotrus/Promethean curfufle that I observed during informal mediation. Most of the diffs have been provided above, and a fairly quick glance of the medcab case (here) will show it to be true. First, a lack of good faith on both sides, mostly evenly distributed except for cases where it was either felt by others' that Boodles was accusing them of being in a cabal, or him outright stating such. This includes Boodles making such accusations on Promethean, which I find uncalled for. Although the group of mediators who regularly go about medcab (or 3O and other informal DR, for that matter) are generally less experienced than those at medcom, we typically attract a pretty clueful bunch. Of all the important policies to keep in mind - especially during an ethnic/religious/etc dispute - NPOV is obviously at the top of the list, especially for the mediator during their interaction with other editors (AGF being implied, with more benefit of the doubt being given than usual). I have seen no indication that Promethean, during informal mediation, was pushing a POV (he was pushing for civility, perhaps not in the best of ways). Were he pushing his POV, he'd have been caught red-handed and likely reported to either medcab coordinator for mucking around in an important and contentious article. I have no knowledge of this happening, and logically the reprimand would be made public if it were indeed such a gross violation.

However, it is possible, and in my experience likely, that suggestions given by an informal mediator were misconstrued as imperatives. Given the huge amount of bad faith flying around that mediation, this wouldn't surprise me one bit. It's relatively easy to conflate a content issue (article structure, verifiability, etc) with a behavioral one (bias, civility, etc), such that content X was thought to be introduced on the faulty grounds that editor Y is abstraction Z, where Z is anything outside the domain of editing (e.g., Jewish, Polish, etc; instead of new-comer, generally-informed, troll, etc; these differences are easily conflated, too). But to say, when the inf. mediator leaves (that is, will no longer be participating), that he was "on their 'team'" () is a gross assumption of bad faith. All in all, boodle's behavior suggests that a firm reminder of Misplaced Pages:There Is No Cabal is needed at the least.

Also: I have seen no indication (again, only during informal mediation) that Piotrus was explicitly antisemitic. I do not have the context to tell whether there were implicit instances, but our job as editors is to assume good faith in such gray areas where we cannot determine motives beyond a reasonable doubt. The line really isn't that fine between frustration and abuse, and this entire case (again, in medcab) is a matter of the former misconstrued as the latter. AGF, AGF, AGF. All around. Criminey.

Comment by Boodlesthecat

Xavexgoem says "I have seen no indication (again, only during informal mediation) that Piotrus was explicitly antisemitic." This is a non-starter, since no one to my knowledge (certainly not me) has accused Piotrus of being antisemitic. Xavexgoem's adding that statement indicates either a lack of familiarity with this boondoggle of a case, or further evidence that someone(s) are falsely spreading misinformation to the effect that Piotrus is being accused of being an anti-semite. So unless someone has a diff indicating such a charge explicitly made against Piotrus, that part of Xavexgoem's observation is simply a straw man with a red herring in each pocket. If you actually read through that mediation, you would find that I spent an exhaustive amount of time trying to get the "opposing" editors there to actually comment on article issue, rather then blow smoke every which way--which obviously accomplished what may have been their goal--to crate a faux martyrdom wherein they are all being unjustly accused of anti-semitism. I for one have only made that charge against the flagrantly anti-semitic posting of Greg park avenue. Boodlesthecat 00:53, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Observation by Hillock65

Somehow I am not surprised that this arbcom case is up again. It seems that one of the most productive contributors to WP is causing too much concern for some people. I happen to know by their edits and mutual contribution many of the participants in this case, including Piotrus, Irpen and Deacon. It seems that the new row is brewing up again as ever in Eastern European topics, where groups of nationalist cabals never stopped hounding those that they dislike. That Piotrus has become their target yet again is not surprising at all. From my experience he is one of the few editors, who refuse to be intimidated and forced out from Misplaced Pages and that's why I am also not surprised to see Irpen and even Ghirla showing up whenever Piotrus's name comes up. All this points to what other editors mentioned above: this is nothing but a nationalist inspired witch-hunt of a dedicated and hardworking wikipedian. Should this hounding of productive contributors succeed, the consequences for the whole of this community would be grim indeed.--Hillock65 (talk) 09:08, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.

• Recuse. I have handled matters related to Matthead in the past, most notably on arbitration enforcement. I would rather another Clerk handled this matter, although my involvement was largely only as a neutral third party and as an uninvolved administrator. Anthøny ✉ 21:26, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
• I've asked Deacon of Pndapetzim (talk · contribs), Piotrus (talk · contribs) and Irpen (talk · contribs) to refactor their statements as they're way over the 500 word limit. If this isn't done within a reasonable time frame, the clerks will do it for them. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:30, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Some clarifications

This is not a statement for the case (I have already made mine) but I would like to address some of the posts made above. Statement by Piotrus and others would be answered in the evidence page. However, while the comments by Moreschi and Durova warrant a response they do not belong to the evidence page since they have no relation to whatever belongs to the case. In fact, I am surprised to see what they posted at all, but I will answer them for the record.

On Moreschi's comment

While Moreschi passingly acknowledges that I seem to him an "also fine writer" he immediately goes into a new round of accusations, this time that I am "a real blocking factor in trying to deal with the worst excesses of Russian compatriots". Beside being factually wrong about Russians being my "compatriots" (I am neither a resident, nor a citizen, nor a native of Russia), he pointedly fails to provide examples of me "blocking in trying to deal with the worst excesses of" the Russians in Misplaced Pages.

Interestingly, this very same accusation was brought up earlier this summer by one of the Moreschi's friends who, at least, had courage and decency to retract this accusation and apologize (a hatchet I am very happy to bury.) The only interaction that involved Moreschi, myself and a Russian editor prior to this arbcom that I think of (and the one that I guess prompted his statement) can be found in the history of his talk. The matter of contention (at least for me) was the fact that Moreschi's talk page became a stage for an unseemly stuff where a certain Russian editor (with whom I argued and whom I reverted many times) became bashed with accusations of xenophobia behind his back.

Moreschi somehow "forgets" our joint effort to curb the damage to Misplaced Pages from a marxist POV pusher Jacob Peters (who I guess, he also considers Russian) and his socks. My single problem with Moreschi lies in the field of ethics rather than content. He apparently considers people having been insulted behind their backs an acceptable practice. This was most pointedly exposed in an incident, when he himself engaged in such behind the back insults. Public details can be found here and here. Perhaps, I am wrong and Moreschi is uncomfortable himself about his past behavior. If so, he expressed no sign of that.

On Durova's comment

This comment is worthy of a response, only because it is so irrelevant to the matters at hand that it should be laid to rest right now. The exchanges to which Durova refers all relate to her improper block of an editor in November 2007 following an unwarranted investigation she conducted and then described on an off-wiki private mailing list that was supposed to be dedicated to the support of female editors who had been harassed. Her investigation of the editor involved did not reveal any evidence whatsoever of harassment of female editors, and her email detailing her conclusions was found to be shockingly beneath the minimal standards expected for any form of action against the involved, extremely dedicated editor. Alex Bakharev indicated Durova had thought the editor involved had been harassing female Wikipedians with sick emails, following an off-wiki exchange with Durova. This was completely untrue, and it is this belief that I have labeled as a fairy tale. As Durova's comments have nothing to do with the matter at hand, I do not intend to address them further. --Irpen 19:18, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Halibutt

Below I re-post my letter to Piotrus. I believe it might serve as my statement here. In short: I quit wiki after 4+ years and thousands of articles edited and created because I have been under similar attacks as Piotrus. He still believes content creators have a place in Misplaced Pages, I don't.

The level of my wikistress has fallen recently. Not to the level at which I'd be willing to return to this can of worms where a group of devoted editors are watching my every step, reverting wherever they can, criticizing and slandering me for what I did (and, in most cases, for what I didn't do) and so on. I still believe Misplaced Pages is a waste of my time. Too much time have I spent here already.

Sadly, we, the content creators are at a lost position here. In case of content disputes, both you and me in most cases saw that there is more than "One Truth", and tried to defend that. I believe that's how both of us understand the sacred rule of NPOV. However, the recent conflicts with the Lithuanian club (and not-so-recent quarrels with the Russian-minded editors) taught me, that the "One Sacred Truth" will always win, no matter how many references you present. Our opponents do not present evidence (and when they do - it's Kazimieras Garšva), yet they prevail anyway.

Why? It seems to me that sheer number of votes is all that matters. They're plenty, we're few. In theory, all open-minded Wikipedians should take part in such content disputes and simply judge by the sources presented. However, in most cases nobody cares except for a small group of people - too small to make a difference. Users like Lokyz or Iulius can safely delete references they dislike - and it's perfectly right and well. But when you revert an article to restore the references - you're instantly reported to some ArbCom, RfA or some other place, where you have to waste time explaining that "you're not a camel", as we say here in Poland.

The same applies to cases of "simple" personal attacks and slanderous campaigns take place. Remember Renata's farewell letter? She accused me of all sorts of absurd things without presenting a single diff or link (of which there could be none), but noone stood in my defence. People don't care, we have to waste time defending ourselves against all sorts of tag teams.

Now on to your case. Of course, the accusations are in most cases completely absurd and out of the blue. Of course, holding this diff against you would be hilarious if it wasn't true (for the non-informed readers, the article deals with Jews from the areas annexed by Lithuania as well; erasing a mention of Polish Jews from there is similar to, say, erasing the mention of Polish Jews from the article on Warsaw Ghetto, arguing that there was no Poland back then). Same for the RfA against Lokyz you filed - you clearly tried to defend against a similar slander campaign that the one that finally pushed me out of Misplaced Pages. And now that's one of the main arguments against you. Sad but true. //Halibutt 19:20, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Statement by greg park avenue

Thanks for the vote of confidence to Users Biophys & Vecrumba and others. I never was an anti-Semite or racist, as the bugger Boddlesthecat et al, who seems to have more puppets than you may find in any Gypsy or Barnum and Bailey wagon, imply. BTW, never had an encounter with User Irpen, but his allegations that collecting evidence by User Piotrus (Black Book) is against WP:AGF is just silly in my opinion. After two ArbComs, were they against me, I would do that too. One afterthought comes to mind. Such accusations remains me of the transcripts from Soviet era interrogations from Lubyanka (KGB) - if one collects an evidence against a party line one is a suspect of being an anti-socialist element (read criminal and US spy) and should be ashamed of doing so. The only way to redeem oneself is to plead guilty to any charges filed by the state, then the penalty for treason may be reduced from 20 to 5-10 years of hard labor in the Siberian or Kazakhstan Gulag. greg park avenue (talk) 00:44, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Molobo

Regarding this statement "Molobo didn't know about the revelation of their IM-relationship and believed that finding out about it was near impossible, blatantly declaring: "I don't know Piotrus besides Misplaced Pages-we are in no personal connection". This is completely correct. The link Scinurae provided is regarding Irpen's accusations that I am Piotrus friend and my edits are coming due to my personal relationship with him. My contacts with Piotrus are only involved with Misplaced Pages. This was the point of my statement. I can and would freely admit that Piotrus and I (as well as other users) contact each other on email and GG. Piotrus often asks me what I do I know about topic or if I know any sources that write about the subject. The above claim by Scinurae is then purely misleading, as the exchange was not about communication but about my alledged personal friendship with Piotrus which Irpen claimed is my reason for edits. I admit that I believe Scinurae is a bit 'obsessed' about my person since most of his edits are pure pop-ups, besides jumping into any discussion that involves me(he once admited my contributions page is on his watchlist).This comes from a long history of his rejection of German aspects of history regarding Poland(going back to the time he was user Nightbeast) to which I contribute. I don't like this type of exchanges since my time is limited and I would rather wrote about subjects I like. Also from my experience, usuallly a fury of statements(usually misleading or abusive) follows by people with much more time and dedication that need explaining and the round goes on and on. As to Piotrus and Irpen-I can only say that Irpen has become obsessed with Piotrus and to lesser extent some others who Piotrus gained as "followers"-this was bound to happen as he edits many controversial articles which attract editors with strong views. However I will say that Irpens obsession borders on something that has reached a disturbing scale. His whole existance on Misplaced Pages now is 90% focused on disputing Piotrus.--Molobo (talk) 10:13, 27 September 2008 (UTC)