Revision as of 00:20, 29 September 2008

This is a page for working on Arbitration decisions. The Arbitrators, parties to the case, and other editors may draft proposals and post them to this page for review and comments. Proposals may include proposed general principles, findings of fact, remedies, and enforcement provisions—the same format as is used in Arbitration Committee decisions. The bottom of the page may be used for overall analysis of the /Evidence and for general discussion of the case.

Any user may edit this workshop page. Please sign all suggestions and comments. Arbitrators will place proposed items they believe should be part of the final decision on the /Proposed decision page, which only Arbitrators and clerks may edit, for voting, clarification as well as implementation purposes.

Motions and requests by the parties

Checkuser request Molobo and Koretek

1) I'm urging you to perform a CU under this rationale on Molobo (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) in connection with Koretek (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki). For more data to check against: . Sciurinæ (talk) 14:57, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Checkuser shows nothing interesting, useful, or helpful. --jpgordon 18:03, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Koterek has not been doing any puppetry, right? Has Molobo been asked to discuss his connection to Koterek? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:57, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Creating a new account only to help you with an ad hominem attack against Deacon in the light of his RfAr and, furthermore, defaming Deacon while being under remedy against personal attacks with the main account, is a textbook example of abusive puppetry. Although I didn't need to, I did inform Molobo the moment I gave evidence some days ago and he did not reply while going on editing. You'd officially deny anything other than CU as evidence against him anyway. That's all I have to say to this. If you want him to make a confession, talk to him yourself. Sciurinæ (talk) 16:24, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

While it is obvious Koterek is somebody's sock, it has not done anything disruptive. Providing evidence is not a personal attack.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:28, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Attacking Deacon's argument as "an old grudge attack by polonophobic" rather than the content of his message is a personal attack. WP:PA: Comment on content, not on the contributor. Sciurinæ (talk) 22:07, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

A noble sentiment - one, however, that is already dead by the time people get to ArbCom, I am afraid.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by others:

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2)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

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3)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed temporary injunctions

Ethical conduct

1) To preserve the integrity and fair-handedness all parties cease and desist from contacting arbitrators or non-recused clerks privately or semi-privately (that is outside of the case pages) in relation to this case. Leaving a note at the arbitrator's talk page pointing to a new case development is acceptable.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

This would contradict Misplaced Pages:Arbitration guide, which specifically notes that while public evidence and discussion is preferred, private is acceptable and in minority of cases, even preferable.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:43, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed by Irpen from Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Piotrus/Workshop#Ethical conduct. I think contacting arbitrators off the case pages is unethical as it gives one side of the story an undue weight since all sides of the case are unlikely to watchlist pages of all arbitrators to present their side of the story to counter the arguments presented by the initial contact. This applies even more to the off-wiki communication. The Arbitration pages exist specifically to present the evidence and make statements. Unless there is some info that is private by its nature (like checkuser results) I think very strongly that it has to be presented in the conspicuous place accessible to everyone. In RL parties of the case are not allowed to go in and out the judge's chambers and juror's deliberation rooms to kibitz about the case in private. Of course it is permissible to post a note like "Please see for the new development of the stalled case." Giving evidence that has to be private due to its sensitive nature would be obviously exempted but this case does not include any sensitive issues that I can see. --Irpen 15:44, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. There is no such policy and never was. I belive in integrity and fairness of all ArbCom members. To the contrary, free exchange of information and opinions would be very helpful. This proposal by Irpen is consistent with his way of thinking that presenting and discussing the evidence can be somehow harmful for the project. He indeed accuses Piotrus of ... preparing a "malicious" evidence for ArbCom . There are also some other questionable activities, perhaps to suppress free expression of views about this casee Biophys (talk) 16:56, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Support. Should be a routine ethical constraint anyway. Alex Bakharev (talk) 05:19, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

WP is not a juctice system, but one can use some analogies. There are no such requirements even for courts in real life. That kind of constraints would normally apply to jurors, but ArbCom members are more like judges. The judges are free to contact with the both sides during due process to ensure the justice.Biophys (talk) 17:12, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus, a question to this. What issues in this case require privacy so that necessitate private evidence? Let's simplify it. During this and last case I refrained from any off-line discussion of the ongoing cases with arbitrators while you were indeed emailing rabidly. Could you just not do it this time? --Irpen 03:42, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Discussion of certain emails requires privacy, for example, if the parties that send them did not make them public. In any case, rest peacefully - I have not been discussing you with any arbitrators recently.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:33, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

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2)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Questions to the parties

Proposed final decision

Proposals by Sam Blacketer

Proposed principles

Purpose of Misplaced Pages

1) The purpose of Misplaced Pages is to create a high-quality, free-content encyclopedia in an atmosphere of camaraderie and mutual respect among contributors. Use of the site for other purposes, such as advocacy or propaganda, furtherance of outside conflicts, publishing or promoting original research, and political or ideological struggle, is prohibited.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed. Standard wording. Sam Blacketer (talk) 09:22, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Support - absolutely Alex Bakharev (talk) 05:20, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Endorse per Alex Bakharev. Durova 06:05, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Endorse per above.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:54, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Decorum

2) Misplaced Pages users are expected to behave reasonably, calmly, and courteously in their interactions with other users; to approach even difficult situations in a dignified fashion and with a constructive and collaborative outlook; and to avoid acting in a manner that brings the project into disrepute. Unseemly conduct, such as personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, harassment, disruptive point-making, and gaming the system, is prohibited.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Another standard finding. Sam Blacketer (talk) 09:22, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Don't you mean principle, not finding? In any case, this is a very important principle, key to this ArbCom.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:49, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Support - seems reasonable Alex Bakharev (talk) 05:21, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

• • Endorse per Alex and Piotrus. Durova 06:06, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Editorial process

3) Misplaced Pages works by building consensus through the use of polite discussion – involving the wider community, if necessary – and dispute resolution, rather than through disruptive editing. Editors are each responsible for noticing when a debate is escalating into an edit war, and for helping the debate move to better approaches by discussing their differences rationally. Edit-warring, whether by reversion or otherwise, is prohibited; this is so even when the disputed content is clearly problematic.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Another standard finding from which the latter point going into more detail on revert-warring has been dropped as not especially relevant. Sam Blacketer (talk) 09:22, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Key points: consensus is build in a polite discussion, not when one party refuses to compromise and/or accuses the other of various violations (from antisemitism to academic dishonesty and so on). One certain editors prove that no constructive discussion with them is possible, two things are likely to occur in their area of editing (which become the proverbial wiki-battlegrounds): flaming on talk and edit warring in article.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:54, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by others:

I certainly agree. But in fact, this rule is most frequently violated by thousands of WP users. As a practical matter, when dealing with such issues, WP administrators usually punish only most disruptive users: those with a long history of blocks. To objectively use such sanctions, one need to use some formal criteria. For example, any users with more than N 3RR blocks could be automatically placed on 1RR restriction. Punishing a user only for making a long series of reverts (as in example I provided in evidence) would be unfair. This is not to justify edit warring of course.Biophys (talk) 15:43, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

There is a problem I've noticed recently with how 3RR and edit warring is dealt with. It is interesting enough I've decided to write an essay on it.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:33, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Support - obvious standard for users in good standing Alex Bakharev (talk) 05:23, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

• • Endorse per above. Durova 06:07, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Content disputes

4) It is not the role of the Arbitration Committee to settle good-faith content disputes among editors.

Comment by Arbitrators:

This will not be the last word on the disagreements highlighted in the case, but is needed to set the limits on the case. Sam Blacketer (talk) 09:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Should a "sub-sovereign" institution like the Arbitration Committee really be defining its own role or powers? Or is this merely a repetition of pre-defined policy? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 03:28, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by others:

A couple of policy questions. It seems that content disputes are sometimes artificially inflated only to make a targeted user angry by removing his edits. How one can distingush such "bad faith" content edits and "good faith" edits? I know, we should always assume good faith. Do we assume that "bad faith" content edits simply do not exist? And if they exist, how can we identify them? Of course, lying about sources is an example of bad-faith content edits. But would an outright deletion of numbers from scholarly books (e.g. book by Robert Conquest) qualify as a bad faith edit? Biophys (talk) 16:41, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

In other words: Is it the role of the Arbitration Committee to settle bad-faith content disputes among editors? How to identify bad faith content? The problem here is that ArbCom lacks the manpower/skills to deal with most content edits. It's easy to deal with revert warring, feasible to deal with incivility, but answering your question regarding Conquest would require them to read the book, read the reviews, and spend days familiarizing themselves with just one tiny aspect of one of one million content conflicts out there (since, obviously, we will get editors claiming that Conquest is controversial/etc.). How many of the arbcom members are familiar with the discussion of biases of modern Russian historiography, for example? Just today, I have one discussion (here and section below) were my opponent is accusing two scholars of being fringe/controversial/unreliable/biased/nationalistic/unblanced and so on. It is possible that one of us is attacking/defending them because of bad faith; but to answer this, ArbCom would need to read through their work, compare it to others, read reviews, and so on... and what about a content dispute about global warming, or abortion, or issues somewhat more familiar to arbcom members but also, issues were they are much more likely to have their own biases? Asking them to judge content opens a gigantic can of worms. For that, truly, we would need panels of academic experts. PS. I do think that ArbCom can answer whether editors have biases, and whether their editing pattern is constructive (NPOV) or aims towards a particular POV and/or creating a battleground. But that's not easy. The ArbCom may be able to speak of good- or bad-faith among editors, but not among their sources. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:24, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

In other words: WP:NPOV and WP:Verifiability policies can not be enforced. A lot of WP articles are ridiculously biased and collectively owned by teams of nationalistic POV-pushers. If I see those articles, I should not go there to avoid being in your position or much worse.Biophys (talk) 13:04, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Not quite. They can be enforced, by the open source bazaar paradigm. We are assuming that most editors are neutral, respect our policies, can be civil and so on. And in most cases, this is correct (hence Misplaced Pages works). The problem arises in controversial topics, were you get above average number of uncivil extremists, who are pushing their POV and creating battlegrounds when they are challenged. They chase away other contributors (who wants to play in a mud arena?), and the job of the ArbCom is not to decide which side speaks the truth, but to plonk the uncivil one, since once you get the trolls down, the civil editors from various sides (POVs) should reach a neutral, verifiable version of the article. To give an example: it doesn't matter if a troll is pro-Soviet, or anti-Soviet; as long as he is a troll, we kick him out.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 15:00, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

"Once you get the trolls down, the civil editors from various sides (POVs) should reach a neutral, verifiable version of the article". Right. That is exactly what you tried to accomplish, and here you are, a subject of several ArbComm proceedings and countless ANI discussions (my apology if this sounds uncivil). To be honest, I do not see that the "open source bazaar" and the "catching trolls" strategies are really working to improve any strongly biased or poor articles I am familiar with, such as Holodomor, 2008 South Ossetian war, Russia, Putin and many others. The articles grow bigger, but they do not improve. Even worse, they promote misinformation. Sorry for "trolling" you. I am not going to argue here any more.Biophys (talk) 17:13, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Biophys, you never "trolled" me. You are one of many good editors who try to write encyclopedic content in a civil manner, and you know you have my respect. It is always a pleasure to discuss things with you, whether we are discussing content or Misplaced Pages policies.

You are completely right that Misplaced Pages is inefficient when it comes to dealing with incivil battleground creators. This is a big problem: it makes valuable editors leave (why should they contribute to project and get flamed in return?) and thus weakens the quality of the articles (which become POVed, when battleground creators win) or are simply not here (the loss potential of articles written by chased away editors). This is the explanation why the Polish community on Misplaced Pages has not grown in 4 years I've been observing it: we get new recruits, but old ones burn out under flame torrents and leave. So far Misplaced Pages has more or less worked (the number of editors grows, particularly in non-controversial areas), but if the civility erosion is not stopped, I deeply fear it may go the way Usenet went: from a useful site for quality discussions to a flaming hell. I hope this ArbCom will be the one to put an end to that process, and restrict/ban some prominent battleground creators. I have invested too much to simply give up and leave, even in face of constant harassing I am facing from battleground fans, but IF the ArbCom fails here, I have deep worries about the future of this project. Technically, Misplaced Pages can scale infinitely. Socially - well, I mentioned Usenet: it was technically infinitely scalable, too... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:45, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for misunderstanding. It is true that situation in Russian and EE history "sections" is rapidly changing from bad to worse (in contrast to Biology/Chemistry "section" were people are very friendly). It is also true that ArbComm can not deal with all issues. And yes, singling out and punishing most serious and obvious violators at ANI (like in this case) would help to defuse the situation.Biophys (talk) 15:54, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) Comment: It is indeed not the role of the Arbitration Committee to settle good-faith content disputes among editors. However, "bad-faith" disagreements (if we manage to define them) is the issue of conduct and arbcom can deal with them. The line between good and bad faith is difficult to draw but it is often possible. For example, if opposing parties base their claim on different sources and both sources are reasonable, it may well be a good faith disagreement. If, however, one party in the conflict falsifies sources or references some claims to sources that are difficult to verify but upon verification the claim turn out to be unsupported in these very sources, it is bad faith. Similarly, if one side of the conflict turns to off-site communication to recruit help in revert wars or surveys, this is bad faith. Once (and if) such activity is established with sufficient certainty, it may be used as a basis for ruling. --Irpen 15:53, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

As long as blatant nationalistic, chauvinist or fundamentalist POV-pushing is not considered "good faith", which trap ArbCom has fallen into in the past. --Relata refero (disp.) 04:28, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Agreed.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 06:11, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Agree. But unfortunately, we do not have any objective criteria to determine if a specific edit can be idenfined as "blatant nationalistic, chauvinist or fundamentalist POV-pushing", as explained by Piotrus above. If we had, that would be great.Biophys (talk) 16:45, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Agree. It is difficult to define the line between the good faith and the bad faith but good faith content disagreements are settled through wide discussed and compromises while bad faith is settled through the user conduct bodies including arbcom Alex Bakharev (talk) 05:29, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

• • Endorse. Durova 06:09, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Meatpuppetry

5) The term 'meatpuppetry' is defined on Misplaced Pages:Sock puppetry as "a Misplaced Pages term of art meaning one who edits on behalf of or as proxy for another editor". Recruiting other editors to come to Misplaced Pages for the purpose of supporting one side in a dispute is harmful to dispute resolution procedures and therefore damaging to the encyclopaedia.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed. Adapted from the meatpuppetry section of WP:SOCK. Sam Blacketer (talk) 21:31, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Reply to Piotrus: That is, of course, where it becomes difficult unless we find a 'smoking gun', and I haven't made my mind up on this case. But since the issue has been raised in the course of the case it might potentially need a principle to lay behind any finding. Sam Blacketer (talk) 10:17, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Right, the problem as I see it is determining whether an edit was done "because somebody was asked to" or "because they decided to do it." And one can ask others to do a lot of innocent things, to (asking for copyedit, asking for a reference and so on). Heck, I've asked academics to come and comment on some articles; in some cases I expected them to support some of my arguments (like here - search for "zuroff"), in others I didn't (here's an example) - was I recruiting them as meatpuppets (or in case of Leiman, who was likely to argue against me, "antipuppets"? :D)? What about RfC? If one request RfC, it is likely that one suspects the newcomers will support his side... I've requested dozens of content RfCs over my career :) I think the above may need a clarification that what's harmful is when one is recruiting "edit warriors" only. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 15:38, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I find the term "meatpuppetry" unhelpful except in blatant cases of canvassing, and have recently introduced the gentler and clearer formulation "excessively coordinated editing" ... although I may be deluding myself when I think that adds anything beyond some additional syllables. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:00, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

It makes it sound more civilized... which has some good, but also some bad sides to it.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:46, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Agreed, but what about editors who came to Misplaced Pages for other reasons and thus were not recruited for the site? I don't think editors are commonly "recruited for edit wars" (albeit I may be wrong). Not that I think meatpuppetry is important here in any case (since I don't think anybody involved here is a meatpuppet, even Alden - unless he was recruited to add Polish POV to Harry Potter articles :D).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:55, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Oppose. This is good definition. But I do not think meat-puppetry is relevant in this case. Such terms as meat-puppets or tag-teams are poorly defined, difficult to prove, and unnecessary. There are simply teams. Teams can be good if they improve WP content, or teams can be bad if they disrupt productive editing or conduct harassment. Do users "A" and "B" form a team or collaborate? This is as simple as WP:DUCK. Good team or bad team? That should be decided by ArbCom.Biophys (talk) 19:40, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

This does remind me a little of old discussions that equated WikiProject Poland/Poland-related noticeboard to Polish cabal. After all, editors of that wikiproject/board collaborate, nobody's denying that. Alas, WikiProject, regional noticeboards and similar wiki organizations are "teams" - but ones working for the betterment of the project. To argue otherwise simply shows bad faith (I don't recall Polish editors ever criticizing the institution of German/Russian/Lithuanian wikiproject or board, for example). On the contrary, I myself have been to a certain extent involved with the two latter, and I wish them all luck and more members.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:15, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Good point. Everyone collaborates with everyone. Talking about teams means introducing the collective responsibility. Everyone is accountable only for his own actions - individually, not collectively. So may be we should stop talking about "malicious teams", "tag-teams" and "meat-puppets"?Biophys (talk) 20:36, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I do agree with findings of the ethnic/national conflict workgroup, outlined in WP:TAGTEAM. Sometimes, disruptive editors will band together and create a "bad team". This is a problem that needs to be dealt with. However, it appears that some can confuse a disruptive team with those trying to stop it (again - following the logical fallacy that "it takes two to tango", or simply - equating vandal preventer with a vandal). If a group of military history-interested editors, involved with WikiProject Military History, is policing milhist content, they are not an "evil tag team" - but they may be trying to prevent disruption by one or more of such tag teams. Now, replace the milhist by Polish in the above example, and you'll see the problem. Please also refer to my disclaimer ("most editors are not part of evil tag teams") here.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:59, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you! Now I am beginning to understand what is that all about. ArbCom should make a ruling that confirms the existence of malicious tag-teams and explains what to do with them, in line with findings of the ethnic/national conflict workgroup. Sam refers to meat-puppetry here simply because this is a well known policy. But we do not have any previous rulings about tag-teams.Biophys (talk) 15:21, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I do hope you're right; it indeed would be good if the word tag team was mentioned more prominently than meatpuppetry, to avoid confusion.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 15:26, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

In view of the comments about the Poland/Poland-related noticeboard I'd like to highlight a wise observation: "If you post a Poland-German related issue to Polish noticeboard, post it at the German noticeboard too. Those boards are not meant for canvassing support from only one group of editors; consensus can only be reached if all sides are aware of an issue." Good advice. Maybe it should be compulsory.--Stor stark7 00:29, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Agree with above. There is a very simple rule of thumb that separates meatpuppetry from legitimate incidents when editors share their positions on something. Meatpuppetting edits are almost always called in by off-site communication, such as email, IRC or Gadu Gadu. The term "excessively coordinated editing" coined by Newyorkbrad aptly reflects this difference. Off-line coordination in edit wars and surveys is always excessive. --Irpen 22:23, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

This should be a common practice for all noticeboards and similar forums, nobody would disagree with that. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:46, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Might be something alongside the canvassing rather then meat puppetry should go here? Most of the problems here are rather violation of WP:CANVASS, WP:BATTLE and WP:AGF than WP:SOCK Alex Bakharev (talk) 05:36, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

• • Qualified endorse. Too often, the term meatpuppet is misapplied and I have concerns that the current wording is prone to overly broad interpretation. If editors A and B were unknown to each other before they joined Misplaced Pages, encountered each other for the first time after 4000 edits, and at 12,000 edits consult with each other--there may be subsequent questions about whether those consultations amount to improper collusion but they are definitely not meatpuppets. Those who are inclined to suppose the worst sometimes try to apply meatpuppet to that scenario. It would be best to tighten the syntax and minimize the chance of this proposal being construed that way. Durova 06:17, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Determination of meatpuppetry

6) It is rarely possible to determine with complete certainty whether several editors with very similar behavior are sock-puppets, meat-puppets, or acquaintances who happen to edit Misplaced Pages. In such cases, remedies may be based on the behavior of the user rather than their identity. Editors who edit with the same agenda and make the same types of disruptive edits may be treated as a single editor.

Comment by Arbitrators:

A standard principle used in cases in which sockpuppetry is suspected; it may be relevant here. Sam Blacketer (talk) 21:31, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

I am not familiar with the last part: "Editors who edit with the same agenda and make the same types of disruptive edits may be treated as a single editor". How does that work in practice? I would be rather offended, for example, if somebody would treat me and Alden as a single editor, and punished me for his incivility, for example. I'd also oppose treating User:Vlad fedorov (mentored and advised by Irpen) as having anything to do with him (Irpen tried to moderate him, Vlad couldn't be moderated and got banned). While they shared similar POV and there was much communication between them (including edit warring on the same articles), it would be unfair to assume Irpen encouraged him (when publicly, he didn't) or punish him for Vlad's misbehaviors (hence I never thought of brining Vlad into our discussions and evidence, even through he was quite active around Piotrus 1 arbitration...). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:00, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I hope the arbs will understand that supporting such a ruling would be extremely consequential, though not by any means do I suggest it would be bad. It will however empower administrators to close votes and other such things with a version of "consensus" significantly different from the current, one based on this principle. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 00:33, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by others:

We need some criteria here. For example, the Giovanni33 was indeed an obvious case of sock- and meat-puppetry. The puppets of Giovanni33 satisfied the following criteria: (1) they did almost nothing in WP except supporting edits by their "master" in the periods of time when their "master" was inactive; (2) they were obvious SPAs focusing on a small set of subjects representing a subset of topics edited by their "master". No, I do not think that any participants of this Piotrus-2 case, including Alden Jones fit these criteria. Formation of teams by established WP users may not be always appropriate, but teaming up is not the meat-puppetry. Sure, Vlad was not a puppet of Irpen. Only User:Jo0doe might be identified as a potential meat puppet of Irpen based on the criteria above. This is not to accuse him of anything. I only think if there is a scientific method to identify potential meat puppets. Maybe yes, but this requires at least as serious investigation/evidence as in Giovanni33 case. I did not see such analysis/proofs here. Once again, meat-puppetry is a poorly defined term (see my objections above). We simply do not need it in this case.Biophys (talk) 00:45, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

We should firmly draw the distinction between the alleged leader and the followers (judged by whether the editor in question is a SPA and whether he started the disruptive pattern or joined it later). Only the followers may be subject to this rule, because otherwise it would enable single purpose accounts to frame the alleged leader in 3RR violations and similar things and to get him blocked. Colchicum (talk) 21:10, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. Looking for masterminds and conspiracies is amusing, but pointless (particularly when one considers arguments that even national intelligence services are engaged in editing Misplaced Pages...). Groundless accusations of being on somebody's payroll (ex. ) are only good for a warning or block for bad faith. At one point an IP rambled on my page about cabal-proving telephone transcripts (, )... I didn't know whether to laugh or cry at the lenght some people will go in cabal investigations :D --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:23, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Agree. We do not need claims like that.Biophys (talk) 23:38, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Not going to comment just yet - would like to see some Fofs first. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:01, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

• • A difficult principle to endorse. Makes sense up to a point, as in cases of obvious sockpuppetry, yet a formulation that works around distinguishing factors would be better. For instance, when Mantanmoreland and SamiHarris were accused of being socks I asked Mantanmoreland for examples of occasions where the two accounts had disagreed with each other or approached a discussion from different perspectives. Mantanmoreland wasn't even able to describe one, much less provide diffs for it: the only distinction between them was that they wrote in different social registers. Two conscientious editors who think independently will accumulate patterns of ways in which they act differently that tie into the editors' respective beliefs and approaches. Raw frequency of agreement is not a sufficient metric: what matters more are the situations where they participated in the same discussion and disagreed. Do they never disagree? Occasional one-offs might be generated to deflect suspicion, but patterns of disagreement--even minor or subtle ones--that sustain themselves over months and carry a consistent rationale are good evidence that two people are similarly minded rather than colluding. Established non-single-issue accounts deserve the chance to explain themselves if they can. Durova 06:48, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Proposed findings of fact

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Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

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Proposed enforcement

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Proposals by Irpen

Update

I am currently having an outside-of-the-arbcom discussion with Piotrus at my talk and I think there is a chance that we can achieve an agreement that might address most of my concerns. As long as I still see a reasonable chance of Piotrus and myself coming to an agreement in that discussion, I am refraining from drafting my own ArbCom proposal. --Irpen 22:28, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Update 2

Due to unforeseen real life circumstances I won't be active on Misplaced Pages for several days starting Wednesday, September 24. I should be able to return to editing in a week or less. --Irpen 00:55, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Proposals by Alex Bakharev (talk)

Proposed principles

Representing all views

1) All Misplaced Pages articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing significant views fairly, proportionately, and without bias. That is why it is important to allow harmonic work of people with different backgrounds and points of view. Misplaced Pages is not a battleground there one group of editors is suppose to win over another.

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Comment by parties:

Support. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 01:00, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by others:

WP:NPOV and WP:BATTLEAlex Bakharev (talk) 11:07, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

• • Endorse Per Alex and Piotrus. Durova 06:49, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Forgive and forget

2) Active wikipedians who have different points of view are bound to regularly have content disputes and different form of conflicts. If we allow all those conflicts to accumulate then after some time all productive work became impossible. Therefore, it is important to ForgiveAndForget. Forgive a person for their transgressions once the dispute is resolved, and forget that they made the transgressions. Or at least forget who made the transgression.

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Comment by parties:

Discuss content, not editors. And don't repeat old accusations for years and years. Try not to become cynical and loose good faith. A sentiment I support.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 01:02, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Loosely based on meatball:ForgiveAndForget Alex Bakharev (talk) 11:07, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

• • Endorse Easier said than done, but still worth trying. Durova 06:51, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

No black books

3) Black books and lists of grievances are counter productive, they advertise and fossilize old stale conflicts. The cache of fossilized conflicts used as a weapon in the new conflicts prevents any meaningful conflict resolution, poisons working atmosphere. In the case of the black book put in the public space and eventually made known to the subjects of dossier it acts as a personal attack, undermining and eroding any positive, productive working environment. Misplaced Pages community cannot control the content of

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Comment by parties:

As I have explained elsewhere: black book = attack pages are wrong. Simple evidence collection for use in dispute resolution is not only right, but is required by dispute resolution procedures like arbcom. Framing evidence collection as black booking is the only real bad faith here.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 06:01, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Extension of the previous. Based on WP:CIV Alex Bakharev (talk) 11:07, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Disagree. Of course, making an offensive comment about others on the English wikipedia is an WP:CIV violation. However merely collecting any diffs is not prohibited. I think the describing collection of diffs as a "malicious activity" is an attempt to interfere with wikipedia justice authority (ArbCom).Biophys (talk) 17:25, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Strongest support. This should be obvious that we should not tolerate devious and dishonorable behavior. As I explained in my evidence section and the discussion I am now having with Piotrus, what adversely interferes with the WP's dispute resolution system is not the ban of black book but the black books themselves. Of course there are ways to keep black books in a way that makes this provision unenforcible. This is why we should ideally have a provision that would neutralize them by restricting attempts to use such logs to gain an upper hand in content disputes. This may be tricky but we should try. --Irpen 18:09, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Is that a joke: book keeping interferes with dispute resolution? I do agree that ArbCom should make a ruling on this matter. "Of course there are ways to keep black books in a way that makes this provision unenforcible". Yes absolutely, unless we are going to do home searches, or to hack the home computer of Piotrus.Biophys (talk) 18:53, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

It does interfere and adversely. It breeds the suspicion and hostility, the complaints Piotrus filed using DR channels that included uploading his black book diffs had an overall detrimental effect on the editing environment and a very mixed success too . Most importantly, and as I explained here the use of black book by Piotrus is neither DR nor a defense but an attack. As for "home searches", there is nothing about it in the proposal. --Irpen 19:10, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

All black books are evil they prevent as they rejuvenate conflicts that otherwise would die by natural death. WP:CIV is intended to keep the work harmonious without antagonizing parties. Enforcing harmonious atmosphere by poisoning it with black books is akin improving sexual potency with the help of castration. Alex Bakharev (talk) 05:03, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment. I have read this so-called black book and honestly, I do not see anything wrong with it. We have scores of users here who continuously push their POV, who attack others, who represent outright dislike of some nationalities. In most cases, their actions go unnoticed and lost. A document like this is very helpful, as it summarizes these actions, and I am sure that other editors/admins, perhaps those here too, keep a thing like this. Tymek (talk) 03:34, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

• • Comment an important distinction needs to be made here between effect and intent. I have seen other long term disputes in which Editor A starts a page in user space, intending it as evidence preparation for dispute resolution that seems likely to occur in the future. Sometimes those are simple attack pages, sometimes those are genuine groundwork for dispute resolution, and other times they're somewhere in between. Such pages are usually compiled in a mood of disappointment and frustration. Regardless of whether the intention and execution is the best or the worst, when Editor B (from the other side of the dispute) finds the page an unpleasant episode follows because good faith has already worn thin. And if Editor A places the page in an out-of-the-way spot to be unobtrusive, Editor B interprets that as deviousness. Durova 07:06, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Administrators should have trust of the community

4) Administrators have access to potentially harmful tools as well as to the privileged information. Thus, administrators should have trust of the community, if they have lost the trust or confidence of the community they should have their access removed. Administrators are people and may occasionally make errors but acting in bad faith is unacceptable.

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Loosely based on Misplaced Pages:Administrators Alex Bakharev (talk) 11:07, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes and no. Admins should be held to high standards, respect policies (edit in good faith, etc.) and be trusted by the community. But as we say in Poland: devil lies in the details. Being controversial should not make one unsuitable for adminship. Active editors will step on many toes just because they are active. I know at least one Polish editor who told me he is going to hide his nationality and edit only uncontroversial articles up to the point he becomes an admin, because otherwise he would become controversial like me, associated with the Polish cabal and surely lose his RfA. I couldn't tell him he was wrong - but I can surely tell that the system, which forces such thinking, is wrong. Many today's admins would fail reelection simply because they made content enemies and their content POV became visible, not because they abused or misused their powers. Community votes like RfA are easily stacked by such content enemies, whose mass also makes neutral editors, lacking time and will to investigate the issue properly, vary of supporting. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:57, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus, can you be a little more specific? Which part of this proposal you dispute? Because your response strays too far away. --Irpen 06:05, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I object due the unclear operationalization of "trust". What happens to often is that an admin has the trust of the community, but a vocal performance of a tag team creates an appearance to the contrary ("look, several of us are crticizing him so he has lost the trust of the community"). For example, it is obvious that you and Alex claim here I've lost this trust, even through majority of outside comments in this (and past arbcoms) contradict you.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 01:09, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus, please do not make any claims about the community trust. That your content friends support you in anything you are doing rather confirms the sad us vs them mentality that got developed in this situation. --Irpen 03:45, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I can't make any claims, but you can. Right. I am not even going to comment further on that.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:34, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

• • Comment prone to gaming. Think of what Poetlister did to SlimVirgin: should Slim have lost the tools for having blown the whistle on a troublemaker of the highest order? I agree the community usually gets it right; ideally ArbCom should function as a check and balance upon community opinion. Sitebanned editors and disruptive editors routinely seek to undermine the reputations of administrators who take on the hard cases--who say "no" and make it stick. Some variation on the current proposal might be excellent; as it stands I fear it would make the site more political. We don't want to foster an environment that breeds Poetlisters. Durova 07:18, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Proposed findings of fact

Piotrus contributes a lot of encyclopaedic content

1) Piotrus is one of the most prolific Misplaced Pages authors contributing a lot of quality content.

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I think we should state it Alex Bakharev (talk) 11:50, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Agree with prolific. Less sure about the quality aspect of the content as outlined here but I acknowledge that many Wikipedians praise Piotrus' content and this can be acknowledged. --Irpen 18:36, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus's contributions have their own shortcomings, still he is much better content creator than e.g. me by any measure I can think of. I am a long time proponent of a policy that protects such content creators as Piotrus (as well as e.g. Ghirlandajo, Halibutt, Giano) from block shopping and unfair treatment Alex Bakharev (talk) 05:11, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I am split on that (besides the fact that I appreciate my work being praised). Yes, I agree we should always keep in mind we are here to build an encyclopedia, and editors who do this are the most valuable - particularly compared to editors who spend most of their time flaming on talk (for the most obvious comparison). That said, I also strongly believe that no matter how prolific one is, one should not have a carte blanche for attacking others: a great content contributor who drives away many small ones may by his confrontational behavior lose more potential content for Misplaced Pages than he generates himself (this was very much, I believe, the case with Ghirla in the past). Having seen many great content creators and respected editors (academics in real life, among others) driven from this project, I do agree that the current system is unbalanced against prolific editors - but I strongly caution against making them immune to normal civility rules. They should be welcomed and respected, but not idolized. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:54, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus, please stop beating this dead horse. This claim you bring in repeatedly and still you did not name a single contributor driven off by Ghirla. While I can name editors driven off by your battling attitude. --Irpen 05:45, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Driven by me? Who? Banned trolls like User:Vlad fedorov, perhaps? As for Ghirla, Halibutt comes to mind (diff provided in evidence), and I've named others driven away by you.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:58, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

It is sufficient to look at the statements Ghirla made reference to this case as well as to the last one. Also, my extended Wikibreaks were caused by my discovering of your back book. I edit Misplaced Pages much less because it's no more fun as it used to be. True, you are not the only reason why the fun is mostly gone. But you are one of such reasons. So, in a way, you drove me off too, at least in to a large degree. Oh, and don't try to drag the Balcer issue here again. This has been discussed and commented upon by enough people. --Irpen 21:18, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Ghirla was about to be banned or severely restricted by ArbCom, and he wouldn't agree to proposed compromise (civility parole), so being driven away by me is hardly an excuse. THe community decided that his incivility and aggressive behavior cannot be tolerated, and he simply left. My repeated attempts to reach a compromise with Girla, as Durova - the mediator - can attest, are actually a very good proof of how I try to prevent battling - thank you for reminding us of that. And I am afraid, Irpen, the case with you is too similar, indeed: past ArbCom's have found you, not me, incivil, and I have full confidence that the situation will not suddenly reverse itself. Admitting that at least part of the problem lies on your side would be a major step in patching up our issues. Trying to portray my evidence collection as attacking you is really the proverbial grasping at straws. Instead of concentrating on my alleged errors (the "all evil on Misplaced Pages is because of Piotrus" line is really getting old), you'd do much better to - as I suggested on your talk - help us draft some better conduct/civility standards (or simply create content, instead of fighting wikipolitics battles). Btw, what other editors - beside you and Ghirla - have I allegedly driven away? Do tell. PS. Balcer case is quite relevant here: while there is ample evidence of how he was harassed and driven (primarily by your "battling" attitude), there is no evidence of me doing this to anybody (there is a glaring difference between accusing editors of various wrongdoings all across the project as you've had a habit of doing and gathering evidence for dispute resolution as I've been doing, so please don't equate our behavior). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:38, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Your "Ghirla was about to...", "the community decided", etc., lack diffs for a reason. You are running around with "ArbCom found me uncivil" and Balcer stuff for long long enough. I said all I have to say about it more than once. And indeed my trying to restrict the behavior that creates this hostile climate while you are staking diffs to prepare for your next blow are different approaches to dispute resolution. This ArbCom is finally centered at this issue and I hope it won't be derailed again by irrelevant stuff being piled up. Alternatively, you can still accept my proposal of peace through agreeing to stop doing what you were doing. My offer is still on the table while you continue to evade giving a straight answer. --Irpen 22:03, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Links are provided to cases, and interested editors can look at them and make up their own mind. Yes, you claimed that the past arbcom was wrong to have found you uncivil. It's as good an argument as the one about me not having the right to collect evidence for DR: if anybody disagrees with you, they are wrong. Yes, this ArbCom is finally centered at this issue and I hope we will solve this, once and for all.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 01:11, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I also hope this issues can finally be resolved. --Irpen 03:47, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

• • Endorse per Piotrus's formidable track record of FAs, GAs, and DYKs. 'Trophy' pieces aren't the whole picture, but they're peer reviewed after a fashion and easily measurable. Durova 07:22, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

The committee has in the past found, in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Durova#Vested Contributors, that "strong or even exceptional contributions to the encyclopedia do not excuse repeated violations of basic policy". As it happens, I don't see any "repeated violations of basic policy"; the words I'd use are "occasional lapses of judgement". What is the purpose of including this when the committee has previously found that it isn't especially relevant? Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:15, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus work in the area of many potential conflicts

2) The area of interests of Piotrus are Polish related topics, many of those topics are naturally connected with German, Russian, Lithuanian, Ukrainian, Belarusian or Jewish history and culture. Since the national historiographical narrative, sources and appraisals are often differ regular disagreements and conflicts are almost inevitable.

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Comment by parties:

I have said so myself in my statement... PS. And it is important: very active editors in controversial topics will step on toes and attract above-average hostility (due to being more active than average editors) from local above-average numbers of disruptive editors and tag teams (which will be more numerous in controversial areas than elsewhere). This explains why certain names pop up in arbcom again and again. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 01:12, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by others:

I think we should state it Alex Bakharev (talk) 11:50, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

• • Endorse per Alex and Piotrus. Durova 07:23, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus is often unnecessary combative

3) Piotrus sometimes acts himself and canvassing his followers to transform those editorial disagreements into a battleground there one point of view should win over the all others. His opponents often act in similar fashion. The result is a long complicated history of convoluted conflicts between groups of editors loosely defined by the national allegiance.

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Comment by parties:

First, the title of this proposal singles me out, while the body is about many more editors in general. Second, while I believe there is ample evidence to prove some editors are guilty of creating battlegrounds, I resent the implication that I am one of them: on the contrary, I believe that I do my best to prevent battlegrounds from arising and I try to calm down existing ones. Of course, which of those is the case - that's one of the most interesting questions that this ArbCom will answer (and I do hope it will answer, and not ignore this issue as it did in the last proceedings).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:50, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Irrelevant as it may be, I brought this arbcom hearing precisely to single you out, Piotrus. Really, as far as I'm concerned, there was no point in the committee accepting the case if they weren't going to consider things on this basis. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 00:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Just as I stated in previous arbcoms, and here, I hope the committee will provide rulings about individuals, including myself, vindicating them or otherwise. It didn't do so the last two times, and both times I predicted this was an error and we will be back here. However, as somebody once told me: "if you get to shoot at them, it's only fair they get to shoot back at you." I create content, and I don't start lengthy DRs often (I've never started an arbcom myself). But I am used to others trying to win content disputes via wikilawyering, and I am prepared to discuss them, if they want to try that strategy. If you join the arbcom and are ready to discuss somebody, you should not be surprised if you get discussed yourself. I know some like Irpen find it shocking, alas, as Kirill stated when accepting this arbitration: "Accept to examine the behavior of everyone involved here". --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:48, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by others:

I did not study the conduct of all of his opponents but I admit it is quite possible that they may also coordinate revert wars by off-line exchanges. I think that off-line coordination roughly defines the line between legitimate situation when the common opinion of several users brings their similar edits and the illicit meatpuppetry. Off-line coordination usually does not produce direct evidence (and this precisely the reason why it is taken off-line) but if it is very extensive, it can be proven based on circumstantial evidence as well as by accidental incidents of beans being spilled due to the participants' "mistakes". Because it is so difficult to combat, I proposed Piotrus a voluntarily solution that would promote honorable conduct in content disputes by a way of editors' pledging to refrain from certain behavior during the content disagreement. Hopefully, we can achieve an agreement on that. --Irpen 18:46, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages unfortunately is one large battleground, in which the whole idea often is lost/missed. Piotrus is one of the few who reaches out to those he disagrees with, he is also one of the few free from prejudices. On the other hand, the user who has singled Piotrus out, is a perfect example of what discourages some people from the project. Tymek (talk) 03:38, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

• • Comment diffuse. The title suggests that Piotrus is an edit warrior or perhaps uncivil, yet the content heads in other directions. By the end it appears to be saying that Eastern European topics are a battleground with Piotrus the principal instigator. The part I find most interesting is His opponents often act in similar fashion. Although it is difficult to infer another Wikipedian's actions based upon circumstantial evidence, each individual knows his own part with certainty. If Irpen classifies himself among the opponents then he is well situated to elaborate upon this statement with examples and evidence. In the interests of clearing the air and moving forward productively, I encourage him to do so. Durova 07:36, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus created a black book, then deceived community about its deletion

3) Piotrus secretly created a black book on Polish Misplaced Pages against his opponents in the content disputes. Then the book was discovered by the previous arbcom case he announced its deletion and within minutes restored it with a different name working as an IP user. The manner of editing the book clearly indicates an attempt to deceive community

Comment by Arbitrators:

Is this something that took place on the Polish Misplaced Pages exclusively, or was there activity on the English Misplaced Pages directly related to it? Kirill 23:38, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

All the diffs were from English Misplaced Pages. Their stacked collection was hidden on Polish wikipedia. See here. --Irpen 00:18, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Please also note my responses to this allegation, which frames normal and expected evidence gathering as some evil "black book".--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:24, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Disagree. An opportunity to collect any evidence is required for successful and fair work of ArbCom (see my comment above).Biophys (talk) 17:27, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

And for many other dispute resolutions... my point exactly: collecting evidence is not creating a black book. The very term is nothing but a bad faith framing of perfectly normal evidence collection.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:46, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Biophys, let's stick to facts. The timing of purported deletion by Piotrus followed by an immediate surreptitious resumption of the black book when logged out clearly show an attempt to deceive. Piotrus' claim to have stopped was dishonest. --Irpen 18:25, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Disagree. It is purely an assumption of bad faith to claim such a list is malicious. Piotrus has been subjected to so many cases in the past, maintaining a list is probably a necessary defensive measure. Spending time collecting evidence after an Arbcom case has been sprung is very time consuming and stressful. As Alex noted above, editing in EE is difficult given the competing narratives, and when a conflict does arrive, it is invariably is a case of pots calling the kettle black. The question to ask on whether the list is malicious is to ask whether Piotrus has ever initiated an Arbcom case against his opponents. Martintg (talk) 21:43, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Creating lists of grievances might be an act of good faith. Officially announcing to community deletion of a text than resurrecting it within minutes working as an IP is an act of bad faith no questions about it. If the IP involved were not Piotrus I of course bring my apologies. I guess arbcom members can verify the matter via checkuser tools. Alex Bakharev (talk) 05:19, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

All those links which should prove my alleged misbehavior are directly taken from Piotrus Black Book . M.K. (talk) 11:44, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

• • Comment per my observations above, it may be quite possible that both sides are speaking candidly here. On-wiki collections of this sort--no matter how well-intended and carefully maintained--tend to enhance disputes rather than resolve them. Suggest both sides shake hands over this episode and agree not to repeat it. Durova 07:41, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
    • A reasonable, good faithed compromise would be for the other side to assume that my evidence collection was within the frame of policies, but due to possible misinterpretation, it would be highly recommended for future cases not to have such evidence collections within Wikimedia project space. Most editors collect them elsewhere, anyway, and the instances when they were collected on site seem to be too problematic too often. I wouldn't have much trouble not doing it on Wikimedia projects, thus solving this issue (I do, however, think it is important to state that I have done nothing wrong with my collection so far as current policies are concerned).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:02, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Piotrus content creation should be praised

1) Arbcom commends Piotrus for all the content he has created.

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Comment by others:

Unusual, but IMHO needed. I would like to add that whatever we do his ability to work on the content should not be hindered Alex Bakharev (talk) 12:30, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Neither necessary nor desirable for the reasons I gave at #Piotrus contributes a lot of encyclopaedic content. I applaud Piotrus's work, but there's no reason for the committee to be doing so officially. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:21, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus desysopped

2) Piotrus is desysopped. He can restore his administrative status via usual RFA procedure.

Comment by Arbitrators:

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Comment by others:

Proposed. Piotrus is not using his administrative tools often and his administrative work is trivial and sometimes questionable (unblocking Molobo, etc.). Thus, his desysopping should not significantly hinder his productive work. On the other hand, I believe that deceiving the community is incompatible with the administrative status. It would also reduce the ability to canvass using administrative IRC channel as well as give a signal that transformation wiki into a battleground is not OK. I think, if the community trust in Piotrus will restore then RFA should not be a problem

Disagree. No convincing evidence, specificaly on the abuse of administrative tools by Piotrus, has been provided.Biophys (talk) 17:29, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

While I agree that administrators should have trust of the community, if they have lost the trust or confidence of the community they should have their access removed, I think the right approach here would be making the admin term in general limited to several years (with the possibility of reelection) rather than desysopping Piotrus in particular. The ArbCom doesn't seem to be entitled to do such things, but if such a proposal is raised elsewhere, I'll support it. As of now, I fail to see what policy requires desysopping of Piotrus. Moreover, I am sure that such a move would be considered as encouragement by some of his opponents. Colchicum (talk) 17:50, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Exactly.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:33, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Abstain for now while I am holding this discussion with Piotrus outside of the AtrbCom. If we manage to arrive to a harmonious solution, this may not be necessary. For the same reason, I interrupted writing up my evidence section in the hope that it may not be necessary. --Irpen 18:14, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Support "Administrators, like all users, are not perfect beings. However, in general, they are role models within the community, and must have a good general standard of civility, fairness, and general conduct both to users and in content matters."Misplaced Pages:ADMIN#Administrator_conduct, and more importantly it links to:

"4) In general, Misplaced Pages's administrators are held to a higher standard of behavior than other users, particularly with regard to principles such as assume good faith and no personal attacks. Administrators are expected to keep their cool and should not use administrator-specific capabilities casually or without thought. They should lead by example and serve as a model of the proper editing behavior to which other users should aspire." In view of his personal attacks, but also other problematic behavior highlighted in this arbitration, I do not see that he is qualified to have the role of admin given the expected conduct of an admin. The best solution would be if he stepped down voluntarily (it would not stop him from seeking re-election if he so wishes).--Stor stark7 19:44, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Disagree, the evidence is not convincing, nor are the alleged wrong doings is as extensive or chronic as other admins who have been desyopped by Arbcom. Besides, Piotrus is open to recall, let the community decide if they have lost trust in him. I certainly haven't. Martintg (talk) 21:26, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

ArbCom has the full right to desysop me, as I believe has the community. For the record, my desysopment was proposed and opposed my RfC last year, see here; and never any motion for my recall has been initiated. I believe I still have the trust of majority of the community. I also believe that if I should ever so visibly loose the trust of the community, I should retire from this project, as it would indicate my input and contributions are no longer welcome here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:44, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Disagree. I am yet to see solid, convincing evidence of Piotrus abusing his admin powers. I am afraid this will be difficult, if not impossible, to find. Tymek (talk) 03:40, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment. I regard that shopping his own unlock via admin IRC, and accusing established editors of being "pov trolls" (details) is abuse of syspop rights; shopping to block content opponents via IRC admin (details) I see as an abuse of admin rights; threats to block editor, who is following WP:BLP, I see as an abuse of sysop rights; unblocking disputed article I see as an abuse of sysop rights. But the most important is this - Misplaced Pages's administrators are held to a higher standard of behavior than other users.. Does Piotrus shows higher standard? Judging from my experience - he does not. M.K. (talk) 12:03, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Joint board on Polish-German-Russian-Lithuanian-Ukrainian-Belarusian-Jewish disputes is created

3) The ethnic disputes related to Poland often have complicated German, Lithuanian, Russian, Ukrainian, Belarusian or Jewish components. Attempts to solve them individually using Consensus mechanism are often only lead to Canvassing and Meatpuppeting as there are number of editors who strongly feel attachments to some of those national causes. We need a committee of reasonable users acting as representatives of those national communities as well as neutral editors interesting in the topics.

Comment by Arbitrators:

The proposal seems incomplete; it's a justification for the existence of a board, but doesn't actually say what role the board would play. Kirill 23:40, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment: Misplaced Pages:Eastern European Wikipedians' notice board was tried and forgotten. How is the Misplaced Pages:Ethnic and cultural conflicts noticeboard working? If well, it should be enough for our problems.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:35, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed. We need something like this Alex Bakharev (talk) 12:30, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Disagree. There is no way to describe the Irpen-Piotrus confict (for example) as Russian-Polish ethnic conflict, as I tried to explain in evidence. I appreciate good contributions by Piotrus specifically on the Russian history subjects. Unfortunately, he could not do enough in this area. No wonder why.Biophys (talk) 17:34, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose We need a committee to do what? How is it going to be decided if a repesentative actually represents a community? And if the committee happen to represent the communities (which is hardly possible), what advantage over direct democracy does it give to Misplaced Pages? Furthermore, how do we know if a Wikipedian is a member of the community to be represented? We cannot require people to formally declare their allegiance on Misplaced Pages. Would this board have jurisdiction over Wikipedians who are not represented by it? Misplaced Pages needs less bureaucracy rather than more, and seeking a middle ground between prejudices is a wrong approach, the right one is to enforce the existing content wikipolicies. Colchicum (talk) 18:11, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Support the idea while we need to develop it. IMO, we need a committee of mutually respected EE editors who would resolve the disagreements about sources and the propriety of their use. Misuse of sources, attacks on sources (sometimes valid sometimes bad faith) is the main feeder of the edit wars. My experience tells me that if we manage to resolve the sources' problem, we will make a huge progress. Exisiting general wikipedia-wide sources noticeboard is inadequate as we have to few uninformed opinions there from bystanders with no idea of what they are talking about. We need a more specialized board composed of editors respected by all sides who would resolve the disagreement about sources. --Irpen 18:21, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, perhaps separate regional or topical subdivisions of Misplaced Pages-wide noticeboards would be useful, but with free participation of all interested Wikipedians and based on the same Misplaced Pages policies. Anyway, it is probably not up to the ArbCom to set up such noticeboards. Colchicum (talk) 18:34, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that groups of good faith users with contradictory points of views exist. What we want to discourage is canvassing and recruitment of meatpuppets, pet trolls, attack dogs, etc. Unless the major players voluntarily reject canvassing, block shopping and would do anything against their own trolls and disruptive users such board would be just another scene of the battles not an instrument of conflict resolutions. And yes, there many more conflicts there than just Russo-Polish ethnic. There are many ethnic as well as non-ethnic conflicts intersects there. Smaller players like e.g. the Lithuanians are often completely suppressed there. Alex Bakharev (talk) 05:34, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Fully support the concept. IMO, what is desperately needed with respect to article concering Polish Jewry is a committee of sorts of non-involved editors who can competently weigh the validity of sources for WP:WEIGHT, WP:FRINGE, WP:RS etc. This is the only way to address s serious problem inn those article--the bullying through of fringe, anti-semitic canards (largely the view that Jews brought anti-semitism upon themselves because of various "sins"--cooperating with the Soviets, creating communism, etc) that keep being inserted into a number of articles. I would eagerly welcome such a committee for those articles as an alternative to the tedium of having to battle team edit warriors who use Canvassing and Meatpuppeting to incessantly despoil articles with views that are an embarrassment to Misplaced Pages. Boodlesthecat 16:13, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose, would never work and is irrelevant to the current case. Given both their contributions to their respective areas, exclusion of either Irpen or Piotrus from this committee is unthinkable, while their inclusion would not resolve Irpen's paranoia towards Piotrus. Martintg (talk) 01:30, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

• Support. Think of it as an Ombudsman's office, rather than as an additional layer of bureaucracy. The successful versions of these institutions start with the assumption that conflicts will arise, and then do their best to assure that the office-holders are neutral, enjoy widespread community respect, and are consistently civil. Yes, the proposal needs fleshing out. Novickas (talk) 14:11, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
• Disagree. The editors here aren't newcomers who need their hands held. This year has seen far too many arbitrations end with milquetoast solutions. It's arbitration's function to be the final step in dispute resolution, not to pass the buck by stalling for weeks or months and then asking everyone to play nicely together. Or worse, cobbled-by-committee 'general sanctions' that hand draconian power to any of 1500 administrators who wander to a thread at AE. We've seen enough of those backfire; let's not encourage more. The buck stops here. Durova 07:47, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Black books and lists of grievances are forbidden

4) Onwiki black books and lists of grievances can be speedily deleted by any administrator on sight (using G10 speedy deletion criterion). Offwiki black books are treated the same way as other off wiki personal attacks.

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Comment by parties:

Oppose (no surprise here, is it? :). I have addressed this in detail in my evidence reply, but: editors have the right to collect evidence. Black books = attack pages not only should be but are forbidden (Misplaced Pages:Attack page); my pages were not attack pages but evidence pages. Editors are required to collect evidence for dispute resolution.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:38, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed Alex Bakharev (talk) 12:30, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment. Deleting diffs with comments ("black books") on sight and treating them as personal attacks - this sounds desperate to me. I have seen some personal essays in WP that sound very much like "griverances". That would be difficult to distingush.Biophys (talk) 17:49, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Support. Such stuff only breeds hostile and divisive climate. I would go as far as prohibit RfC drafts from being kept in userspace for more than one week (to allow reasonable time to write them up). In Cla-SV case this was discussed in greater detail. I make no comment on their dispute itself, but Cla's RfC-draft resting and developing in his userspace for months could only breed hostility. --Irpen 18:17, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Some "lists of grievances" are normal part of arbitration, requests for comments, or preparations for them. Anyway, I don't see what it has to do with creating content and how this proposal can help here. Colchicum (talk) 18:25, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

You "can't see" because you were lucky to not have seen such activity directed against yourself. You can read up about the experience of finding out about being so deviously monitored here as well as here (fourth paragraph from the bottom) and here. --Irpen 19:21, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I am still not convinced that meticulously collecting an evidence in this case represents harassment, as you imply, especially since it was you rather than Piotrus who brought this "black book" here.Biophys (talk) 19:30, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Solving an isolated conflict (e.g. over Boleslaw expedition is easy), solving hundreds of fossilized conflicts spanning periods of years in a meaningful ways impossible unless the arbcom is prepared to deliberate for years. Keeping out of context diffs in a public place without the target having a chance to respond is a harassment. Collective meticulous preparation for months of evidence then dumping it on an unsuspecting user who suppose to answer in days (and might have some other things to do) is at least grossly unfair. There is no need to collect and nurture all your grievances you expect to seek solutions at the time the problem is arrived Alex Bakharev (talk) 06:00, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Alex, your facts are wrong. The book was not google'able to avoid being seen as an attack page, but it was possible to find so that parties interested enough in stalking my edits could see what I am concerned with and raise it on talk (this is why I left it there; do you think I am stupid and I recreated it in almost the same place where the last one was because I thought it was somehow unfinde'able now?). If you post anything online, you are making it public, I just made this one accessible only to the much more dedicated editors - I was curious who would invest time in following my edits this time... surprise, my good friend Irpen was the one to do so. There is no harassment if the harassed has spent considerable time to stalk the "harasser" to figure out what he is doing... it's like sticking an arm deep into a garbage disposal unit and crying harm afterwards :) One could argue with more logic that bad faith and harassment was shown by user(s) looking for my evidence collection in the first place. And, of course, collecting evidence is no bad faith, it's following dispute resolution procedures, so there was no bad faith or harassment on my part. "Collective meticulous preparation for months of evidence" may be grossly unfair - just as writing a Featured Article is grossly unfair to editors who have no time/will to do so... be serious, Alex. Making a better argument is not being unfair.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 06:37, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus, I swear I found you black book by googling something. I really don't remember the string I was googling for but in one of our many disputes you challenged me to find diffs for something I assert and I googled in search of the page where the discussion I was referring to took place. Your black book showed up and made me disgusted beyond belief, especially how it was restarted after its claimed closure. I addressed the rest of your claims elsewhere. --Irpen 05:51, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I know you found it a year ago by googling, and I agreed that it may be offensive (as one does not enjoy googling for one name and finding criticism), which is why I ensured that current version is, to my knowledge, non-google'able (and has been for about a year). So what's the problem? PS. I also ask you to provide a diff to google search that shows that my current evidence page is googe'able.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:03, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

What's the problem? Two problems, actually. The lesser one was that your knowledge was incorrect as I found it by google. The bigger one is the fact that you followed me and others in search of material to be used at the opportune time and you did try that. I explained it multiple times, both at my evidence section and my talk. --Irpen 21:08, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Please prove that the current page is google'able and I'll be happy to remedy that (I fully agree that it is unpleasant to google one's name/nick and come up with such stuff). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:53, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus, I am not even an amateur in Google hacking. I have no idea what makes pages googleable. All I am saying is that several months ago it showed up in a response to a google string when I was looking for some of our previous discussions I needed to refer to in the discussion we had at the moment. But this is really a minor issue. My main concern is not whether the page is hidden or open. My concern is with your logging of material for months to use it at an opportune time to strike and get rid of opponents which demonstrate a vicious attitude towards Misplaced Pages editing as a long term "battle". I explained it all here. I requested from you a firm promise that this would stop. So far, you refused to do so. I am sure that if you, me and most other editors would agree to follow a simple code of ethics, we would have a good shot to address other problems. --Irpen 20:12, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Ah, finally, a time clarification: several months ago. Yes, early this year - around the time of Digwuren arbitration - the page was google'able. Then you objected to that, saying it is stressful to google one's name in such context, and I fixed it. And yes, it would be great if all editors agreed to work peacefully and never need dispute resolution (which requires evidence collection). I am afraid such an ideal world is not very likely, however, and this is why evidence collection is explicitly permitted and requested by policies of DR. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:36, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus, not that many months ago. I am talking well after you changed the page of your log from Piaskownica to Drogowskaz as when I found "Drogowskaz" it had a very significant edit history already. It was certainly less than a year ago (which was the time of Digwuren's case.) Your claim that the type of your activity (not "evidence collection" per se but specifically what you were doing) is permissible is where we disagree. You claim it is a legitimate "evidence collection" while in my opinion this is evidence of the grand scale viciousness in the battleship for the favorable content of Misplaced Pages as explained here. Should I consider my request for you to promise to stop denied? Because so far you were avoiding the direct answer. If you are going to refuse, just say so at my talk and to my deep regret the rest of this disagreement would have to be resolved at the ArbCom pages. --Irpen 20:57, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Disagree. I don't see how semi-privately recording evidence of someone's incivility to me (for example) constitutes "harassment" to that person committing the incivility. Perhaps if we all maintained such lists, it could be a deterrent to the incivility being committed in the first place. Martintg (talk) 22:00, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The intention of all those politeness is to keep harmonic work without hostilities between the editors. Collecting dossiers of out of context difs from stale conflicts serves exactly the opposite Alex Bakharev (talk) 06:00, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Proposed enforcement

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Proposals by Piotrus

Proposed principles

Gathering evidence is a normal dispute resolution procedure

1) Sound evidence is the rational basis for sound judgements. Gathering evidence is required by many dispute resolution procedures, such as Request for Comment and Request for Arbitration. There are different ways to gather evidence, and editors may take different lenghts of time to gather it; editors are free to determine how and when they gather evidence as long as their evidence is not used as an attack page to defame others.

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Comment by parties:

Proposed. A response to "No black books" proposal by Alex. Simply, a finding that my evidence collection was wrong would crash our current dispute resolution system, as it would indicate that evidence collection is wrong. A statement to the contrary is needed before future arbcoms and other dispute resolutions become paralyzed with sides accusing each other that the other side had no right to gather evidence... PS. Search for instances of the word "evidence" at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment and Misplaced Pages:Arbitration guide and one'll find repeated instances indicating that participants are required to gather evidence.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 06:20, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Fully and repeatedly answered here and here. --Irpen 05:55, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Support. This is standard.Biophys (talk) 00:42, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Assume good faith

2) Per Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith, editors should act on the principle that other editors are trying to be neutral and are amenable in reaching a consensus. Assuming other editors are acting with bad faith is disruptive.

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Comment by parties:

Proposed. A very important basic principle, particularly as much of this arbcom centers around bad faithed accusations about my person: anything I do, it seems, can and is twisted and misrepresented in bad faith, up to and including a claim that I create content with the sole intent of creating battlegrounds... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:34, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Support the principle. However it apparently does not apply to arbitration proceedings, where everyone seem to assume bad faith. Right? Support comment. Content never creates battlegrounds, however controversial it might be. Only people create battlegrounds.Biophys (talk) 00:49, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

WP:AGF requires assuming good faith in the absence of the evidence to the contrary. The first part is most often cited and sometimes mis-cited. However, the second part is important too. --Irpen 03:49, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Both a very important points. Assuming good faith does not mean, for example, assuming that all will work out peacefully, or that nobody makes errors, nor does it mean being blind to dispute resolution when needed - or its requirements, such as collecting evidence required for dispute resolution... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:37, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Asking for input is not canvassing or forum shopping

3) Advertising a discussion on forums relevant to current issues, such as regional notice boards, topic noticeboards (ex. WP:RSN), or RfCs is not canvassing, provided that the message is neutral and nonpartisan. Preferably a message with similar content should be copied to all relevant noticeboards, to ensure no party is excluded from notifications (like here, here and here). Asking for input regarding other editors actions (like this) is not forum shopping; editors have the right and even obligation (in case of admins, whose duty is to ensure battlefields are contained!) to ask on a neutral forum for others to review, comment and possibly act on edits that they deem troublesome (just as posting to WP:ANI/3RR is not "block shopping"). Finally, using off-wiki communications is acceptable, as long as it is not used to hide activities that would be violating wikipedia policies if revealed.

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Comment by parties:

Proposed, as Alex raised a good point above that this is not only about meatpuppetry, but canvassing (WP:CANVASS). I will also point out that Irpen himself recently agreed "There is nothing wrong with off-wiki communication per se" (see workshop talk for full context). Assuming one communicates with others, without any proof, that editors stack votes or conspire on reverts, is bad faith - editors vote the same way and support certain content all around Misplaced Pages. Per WP:CABAL: "consider that if many people disagree with you, it may be just because you are wrong ". PS. I would also like to openly declare what I have declared previously in my statement and evidence: I have asked several editors (primarlily ones who have left this project, or those involved as official and unofficial mediators in dispute resolutions relevant to this case) to join this arbitration. This is an example of what I believe is a perfectly proper reason and way to ask other editors to join a certain discussion for the benefit of all community. If ArbCom wishes, I can provide a list of whom I've asked and a rationale behind it. I don't request that the other party provides similar declaration or a least, but I fully expect they have done the same (just as they have collected their evidence - and just as I am not criticizing that).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:18, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Misplaced Pages is not a battleground

4) Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia. Use of the site for political or ideological struggle accompanied by harassment of opponents is extremely disruptive.

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Proposed, based on identical and relevant passed principle from Digwuren arbcom. PS. This is quite important in light that some users (for example, Novickas (talk · contribs) and Irpen (talk · contribs)) are primarily active in dispute resolution (this arbcom), criticizing other users. Novickas is a case to point, with all but one edits since September 2 till the moment I am writing this words edits to this case. I believe there is something wrong with user's priorities if they spend more time criticizing others in DR than in creating encyclopedic content. We are here to build an encyclopedia, not fight wars... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:46, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Endorse. Durova 07:49, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

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Proposed findings of fact

Piotrus evidence collection was within norms of the community

1) Piotrus evidence collection was within norms of the community. Dispute resolution requires editors to collect evidence and Piotrus evidence was most implicitly a simple application of those requirements, and not an attack page.

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Comment by parties:

Proposed. A reply to "Piotrus_created_a_black_book.2C_then_deceived_community_about_its_deletion" proposal by Alex. I elaborated in replies above and my arbcom statement on this. I'll also repeat that the evidence page was hidden to avoid accusations that's it's a googlable attack page; I a not stupid and I knew well that any reasonable search through my contributions (anybody can look at editor's global contribs from English Misplaced Pages contribs!) will find it. I kept it semi-public because I had (and have) nothing to hide. Finally, I resent bad faith framing (where the very name implies wrongness) of my evidence page as the "black book". For the background of this term first arose, see old 2005 case, the Misplaced Pages:Non-main namespace pages for deletion/User:Witkacy/Black Book and compare the differences.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 06:28, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Support. This is so called "black book". It includes simply diffs and brief comments by Piotrus. Diffs themselves are not "malicious" by any means. The comments can not be interpreted as a personal attack - as clear after reading them. They were made outside the English WP. Importantly, these diffs were never actually used by Piotrus to "attack" anyone. At least I did not see any evidence of that. To the contrary, they were used by Irpen to attack Piotrus during this case. I would like to see any written WP rules that consider keeping diffs with notes at the user subpages as a serious violation punishable by ArbCom. I kept some diffs with comments too. Should I copy such diffs instead to my home computer?Biophys (talk) 01:37, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Malicious are not "diffs" but their collection to use as a weapon at an opportine time. And again, Biophys, your claim is simply factually wrong. Piotrus used his diffs many times. Just in my evidence there are examples (example 1 ; example 2 , example 3 ). And there were many more attempts. --Irpen 06:01, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Using diffs during RfCs, ArbCom proceedings, and in many other cases (like those you indicated in examples) is not a "malicious activity" or a "personal attack". For example, you provided many diffs during this case. I am not sure one could call your diffs and arguments "malicious".Biophys (talk) 16:43, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Malicious is seeking blocks and sanctions of opponents are the primary method of resolving content disputes in one's favor. The core issue is the following: Does Piotrus activity falls within the community norms of dispute resolution through ridding the Misplaced Pages of bad apples or does he seek the elimination of opponents at any cost as means to gain upper hand in content disputes? And if the answer is the latter, and I believe it is, his diffs collection and their unloading (along with the spin he gives to them) to various pages when he thinks the time is ripe falls within the pattern of his trend of using various unseemly strategies to win content disputes. Calling in reverts via Gadu Gadu is another such strategy. This is a judgment issue whether this conclusion can reasonably be inferred from Piotrus' activity. I think it can. --Irpen 18:24, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

We are talking here only about his evidence collection, not about Gadu Gadu or anything else. Of course if someone tells: "go away of my article, or I will unleash my evidence against you!", that would be a violation of the policy, but not the evidence collection per se.Biophys (talk) 20:36, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I think malice is evident because, even without Piotrus' issuing such a direct threat, we can reasonably conclude from what we see that Piotrus used elimination of opponents through following them around to collect diffs and then unleash his collections to various boards at opportune times (also badly spun) as a strategy to help him win content disputes. I believe Flo precisely meant such unseemly strategies in her acceptance comment. You may persist (along with Piotrus) that what he did does not amount to any wrongdoing. Facts are on the table and not disputed. What to make of them is to be decided in this case. --Irpen 20:48, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

You tell "elimination of opponents through following them around to collect diffs". But this can be said about collection of any evidence if only someone was banned in the end. Collection of diffs about the "opponents" - it is exactly what you and others are doing during this case. You probably mean: it is inappropriate to collect evidence in advance. But this is a highly controversial opinion at best.Biophys (talk) 00:24, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose - hivemind style collecting dirt is unacceptable. Anyway if it was done in good faith then why Piotrus did use anonymous accounts? Why did he announced its deletion? Alex Bakharev (talk) 12:27, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

• "hivemind style collecting dirt" - perfect example of bad faith framing (social sciences). Calling a normal activity evil is not going to make it so, I am afraid. Why anonymous? As I wrote above, I wanted to keep it private (since last time when it was public Irpen complained it was google'able and linked his name with misdoings...). Where did I announce it's deletion? I said from the start that I did nothing wrong, and I still say so, I haven't deleted this useful page - I simply moved it so that stalkers would need to spend a little more time and effort finding a new one. I did note above that I was curious who would dedicate time to stalking me and finding it out (if I wanted it to be safe, I would have taken it off wiki, obviously - and kept my diffs in a doc like everybody else here). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:48, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus, but you forget one important thing. An enormously absurd accusation will be trusted if repeated a thousand times. I could provide a link to a WP article about this phenomenon, but that might be interpreted as a personal offense (calling someone "Nazi" etc.). WP becomes a dangerous place where people can not freely discuss anything.Biophys (talk) 20:06, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

In other words, mud sticks. Very true. It doesn't matter that 90% of criticism of editor A comes from editors B, C, D, and E - if they keep criticizing him for years, on public and highly read forums, a lot of wiki bystanders are just going to remember that editor A has been commonly criticized... mud sticks. Like the fact that the previous two or three arbcoms that I've been involved in didn't find anything wrong with my behavior doesn't stop certain editors from saying that "Piotrus is a disruptive behavior as proven by the number of arbcoms he was involved in". Framing is important, too: obviously, "Piotrus 2" arbcom as the title implies is about nothing and nobody else but Piotrus being disruptive, again, right? If we have a policy or essay about it, please link it here or on my talk page - I plan on expand my essay on that very subject.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:37, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Framing of Piotrus' evidence gathering as "black book" shows bad faith

2) Since Piotrus' evidence gathering is a normal procedure for dispute resolution, attempts to frame it negatively as "black book"/attack page are a violation of "assume good faith" policy.

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Proposed, as a logical extension of the proposed finding above. Arbcom may also want to consider whether actively looking for such an evidence page is not a violation of WP:STALK.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:18, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Oppose - collective collection of dirt is absolutely unacceptable Alex Bakharev (talk) 12:29, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Framing of Piotrus' evidence gathering as "collecting dirt" also shows bad faith :) --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:49, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus is a civil editor

3) Piotrus respects WP:CIVILITY, WP:GOODFAITH, WP:CONSENSUS and related policies. He tries to prevent "wikibattlegrounds" from arising, and tries to moderate conflicts and reach peaceful compromises when possible. He is not perfect, but nobody is, and on average his behavior falls within acceptable community norms on civility and related policies.

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Proposed. I am not seeking praise, but I feel this is needed as a direct reply to "Piotrus_is_often_unnecessary_combative" proposal by Alex. It's either one or another, and I believe it is very important: have I been damaging this project with my attitude and should I leave? Or am I being harassed instead? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:53, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Absolutely. In my experience with him, I have never seen Piotr act in an uncivil manner. Ostap 04:02, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Fully agree with Ostap. Piotr is a great asset to Misplaced Pages. Närking (talk) 20:56, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Support. Piotrus has incredible patience. Sometimes looking at his debates with Irpen, I thought: "How can he survive?". I would run away and leave the article to POV-pushers. Let them do whatever they want. Health is more important. And that is exactly what I did in Holodomor article.Biophys (talk) 23:55, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Totally agree. I have never known Piotrus to be uncivil or combative in the way Irpen is. Martintg (talk) 01:18, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Support - I can say quite unequivocally that, in about two years of observing Piotrus at fairly close range, I have never seen him being uncivil. Biruitorul 03:28, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. It's nice to see that there are parts of community who still have trust in me :) --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:59, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

• • Endorse to the limited extent that my observations permit. He was fully cooperative throughout my attempts to mediate between him and Ghirla. Durova 07:51, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

There is no Polish cabal or tag team

4) There is no group (WP:CABAL, WP:TAGTEAM) of Polish editor acting together violating policies and damaging this project. Piotrus is not a leader of such a (nonexistent) group. Piotrus is however one of the leaders of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Poland/Polish Regional Noticeboard community; this community is a perfectly normal and policy-abiding WikiProject community that will - not surprisingly, and without any malice - be relatively active on Polish-related subjects.

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Proposed. The ArbCom should also rule on whether certain other cabals/tag teams exists or not, and take appropriate action against either editors involved in them (if they exists) or accusing others of being involved in it (if it doesn't).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:23, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Can you provide any evidence for this. How many Polish editors opposed Piotrus in any ethnic wikiconflicts? Alex Bakharev (talk) 12:36, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Beautiful. Guilty until proven innocent, aren't I? Just look at various discussions and you'll find Polish editors with different viewpoints, often not supporting each other (example - Halibutt opposing my proposal). PS. Alex, can you prove there is no Russian cabal and that you are not a member of it? Also, can you prove that CIA, KGB and Microsoft are not running Misplaced Pages? And while you are at it, disprove the black helicopters conspiracy? Thanks. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:57, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I think this argument by Alex places everything "upside down". To the contrary, the lack of criticism by Polish editors indicates they respect Piotrus. On the other hand, the relations among Russian users are terrible, as I presented in evidence. Hence, there are dissenters like me who criticize "leaders" like Irpen. Not too many Russian users criticize Irpen? Sure, they do not want to be harassed like me.Biophys (talk) 17:13, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

And how many support him? Or how many reliable, respected Lithuanian or German editors support their tag teams buddies? Nadda. It's not "community vs community" or "community vs editor(s)", it's "tag team(s) trying to create an illusion they are community vs editor(s)".--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:20, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Agree. Most people work peacefully here, regardless to their country of origin. There are few who create battlegrounds. The question is who they are, and how to minimize the damage. I must admit however that quite a few Russian users would support Irpen and share his political views.Biophys (talk) 18:35, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

There is a difference between agreeing with one's POV and agreeing with one's editing methods. You don't share my Polish POV, but that doesn't mean we are enemies. I understand that we have a proper place even for Putin-nationalist or Soviet POVs and I have nothing personal against the editors who represent them. The problem is that sometimes, some editors will have confrontational attitude (the "true believers" I wrote in my essay), and they will create battlegrounds. But most Russian editors, while many would share Irpen's POV, don't go around and harass their content opponents. You mentioned Przyszowice massacre: why was it only Irpen who made it his crusade to disrupt that article? Why wasn't he supported by the Russian community? Also - a battleground doesn't mean that both sides are guilty - one can attack others, and the defenders are victims, not co-battlers (just as in WWII the Allies were not as guilty as the Axis).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:05, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Civil content creators are harassed and chased off by tag teams

5) Civil content creators were (ex. User:Halibutt, User:Lysy, User:Balcer and others) or are (myself, User:Tymek) harassed with bad faithed, personal attacks and chased off this project or at the very least quit certain area contents (ex. User:Biophys and Holodomor article). Whether this is intentional or a byproduct of incivility and confrontational attitude of certain individuals (sometimes working as tag teams), this one sided harassment culminating in editors quitting or vastly limiting their activity represents a trend that is very harmful to this project.

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Proposed. See my statement and evidence (linking to several other statements on this arbcom made by editors who shared their experience of being harassed) for proof that many users were harassed and resigned due to that (or are still being harassed), and that their harassers are still at large and completely unpunished, continuing their activity (targeting, among others, myself). If anybody thinks that being a target of harassment, culminating in mud olympics of arbcom, doesn't waste my time (I could be writing articles instead of arguing here) and doesn't raise my stress levels (why should I contribute to this project where my rewards are nearly yearly arbcoms against me?), they are dead wrong. PS. It is important to note that this is one sided harassment: Balcer, Lysy, Halibutt, myself, Tymek, Biophys and so on are not harassing the harassers. It is not a mutual mud slinging festival: it is an event when one side (who usually can't win content disputes due to violations of NPOV/V/RS/etc.) keeps slinging the mud, seeing if they can chase their opponents off or bait them into becoming like them, and over time, worsening their reputation (even if there is little truth in what they same, mud sticks, and focusing on few errors others made and repeating them for years gives an illusion of credibility to those unfamiliar with the isssue). See also my essay "On radicalization of users" where I address a related phenomenon. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:07, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

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This is not always harassment, but people are certainly chased off. I have learned the following lesson. Almost all important wikipedia articles are collectively owned by groups of users. Prior to editing any political article, look at POV-pushers who own it. If there are no "owners", one can go ahead. If you think the "owners" from the strongest team will allow you edit - you can go ahead. If you see a battle (like in Holodomor, Terrorism or Ossetin war) - run away.Biophys (talk) 20:37, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

That's a very good observation, again. But here's an interesting question: I, for example, watchlist ~3000 articles, and try to ensure their NPOV, V, MOS and so on. Now, one could argue (and some here do) that I am "owning" or "tag teaming" on those articles. I disagree, but how do you tell if an editor or a group are doing a good job or a bad job, protecting or destabilizing an article, ensuring NPOV or POV pushing on it? I'd think that if an editor has a record of GAs/FAs that would indicate he knows what NPOV means, but would I be right, Biophys? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:41, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

No, I disagree. The GAs/FAs contributions are certainly a factor for ArbCom when it wants to minimize the damage for the project. For example, it may want to keep a highly productive contributor but penalize others, simply because this is best for the project. This is not a justice system after all. However, the "POV-pushing" and "NPOV-violations" are mostly visible when someone deletes an information published in reliable secondary sources, such as books written by an expert in his field. This can be done even by an established wikipedian with regards to edits made by a new user, like in this example. Here, User:William M. Connolley deletes an information he does not like as a "fringe view", even though this specific information was never disputed, and the claim was made by a notable espionage expert, precisely in the area of his expertise, and published in a book by Pete Earley. That is what I call a clear-cut NPOV violation. To be honest, I also looked at some of your recent disputes to check if you are doing something like that. However, everything was pretty much in a framework of a normal content dispute, although I checked only a few examples. That is one of the reasons I support you here, although I would not support William M. Connolley. All of that however is not harassment. Biophys (talk) 16:00, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

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No personal attacks

1) Based on WP:NPA

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User:Boodlesthecat has been uncivil and disruptive

1) He has repeatedly accused me of antisemitism (, , ), been uncivil to other editors (, , ), and engaged in the revert war (, ).

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To say the least. Never in my 4 year history here, and having dealt with quite a few offensive flamers, I have seen so many violations from a single user, with the "you are a dick" email being the proverbial cherry on top. And accusing anybody who disagrees with him of antisemitism is just one of the worst slander tactics I've ever seen, too.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:26, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

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Let's compare 13 articles created by an eight year veteran, user Slrubenstein - a suspected runner of Boodles, who got zero contributions - with 1901 created by user Piotrus alone. Even user Irpen with 105 looks better, at least he got more than SLR, Shabazz, M0RD00R, Jeeny and Boodles combined. greg park avenue (talk) 13:16, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

As I've stated before, I have never interacted with Slrubenstein, or SLR, or Jeeny. Greg, I really think you should concentrate on incivility (both as in defending yourself from it and not being incivil yourself), and drop the "runner of... sock/meatpuppet" angle. There is little proof those users are doing anything wrong together (now, granted, some of them like Boody do a lot of wrong by themselves). You can win an argument against Boody: he is much more incivil, and did much less creative contributions than you. But if you go against all of those others editors, your position looks much, much worse (and I believe would be wrong - most of those other editors look like good, constructive ones). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:47, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I am not into this little office pushover of yours, user Piotrus. SLR, Shabazz and Boodles call me an anti-semite and even racist, just because I disagree with them/him. You (see your speculation below) and others as Ryan (see his talk page) are assuming they're Jewish, but he/they never stated they are Jewish. I am not assuming they are Jewish until they say so (clear and present), even then if I was disagreeing with him/them and he/they were Jewish, was I necessarily an anti-semite? It's an obvious malfeasance, even fraud. An insolence - If I was Jewish, anyone who disagrees with me would I call an antisemite? Three accounts which look like the same person say essentially the same thing: I am an antisemite, just to make an impression more than one person is of the same opinion. Looks like a crowd, huh? Why no one else, say, user Irpen or user Lokyz, or user M.K. or user JayG or user Gamaliel claim that, huh? Give me a break. greg park avenue (talk) 00:20, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

No Piotrus, I only accuse antisemites like Greg of antisemitism. As to you receiving unkind emails, you might consider just how some of your overt abuse of admin authority in defence of an anti-semite contributes to an editor getting frustrated with your tactics. Boodlesthecat 15:48, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Greg is not an antisemite

2) I am very offended by antisemitism accusations, which are extremely slanderous. I believe I have a right to a clear statement by the neutral Misplaced Pages justice system that would clear my name in this regard.

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Oppose Greg doth protest too much. He has a rich history of making antisemitic remarks. Here's a sampling from just two pages, Talk:Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland after Auschwitz and Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Piotrus 2/Evidence:

• that clown Thane Rosenbaum who parades here as son of holocaust survivors
• Even Jews are tired of Thane Rosenbaum who obviously masquerades as son of holocaust survivor
• Even Jews are tired of Thane Rosenbaum who obviously masquerades as son of holocaust survivor (restored after it was deleted for BLP reasons)
• Even Jews are tired of Thane Rosenbaum who obviously masquerades as son of holocaust survivor (restored again after it was deleted for BLP reasons)
• You don't even sound like Jewish
• Even Jewish readers themselves find Thane Rosenbaum's masquerading as a son of Holocaust survivor confusing ... Further digging shows who really Mr Rosenbaum is: a Wall Street lawyer turned writer, who is actively engaged in a legal campaign of handling of settlements for Holocaust survivors
• Now they write essays, novels, reviews in which they tell their side of the story as seen from a high rise elevator somewhere on Wall Street and jump and scream bloody murder hearing the stories about the cattle cars
• Boody and his obvious supporters/sockpuppets who seem to play Jew but they don't sound like that

No one can look into Greg's heart and know his feelings toward Jews, but in light of his comments, I don't see how any reasonable person could conclude that Greg is not expressing antisemitic sentiment here. — ] (] · ]) 20:11, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Greg's fault is that he dared to use the word Jew. If you'd replace this word in his remarks with Polish, I'd not consider him anti-Polish. Discussing whether an article has a pro-Jewish bias is not anti-semitism, not anymore than discussing whether an article has a pro-Polish bias is anti-Polish. And discussing whether an editor has a Jewish bias does not make one an anti-semite, just as discussing whether an editor has a Polish bias does not make him a Polonophobe. Just as well editors who are discussing anti-semitism or Holocaust are not necessarily pro-Jewish.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:10, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

As the admin who threatened to block Boodles when he removed Greg's antisemitic and libelous comments concerning Thane Rosenbaum, despite Boodles referring to WP:BLP, I hardly think you're objective here. — ] (] · ]) 21:19, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Just as you, being an editor who gave Boody a barnstar for "going to the mat against a cabal of POV-pushing Polish chauvinists" in the aftermath of his 3RR block and sending me a "dick email", may be a tiny wee bit biased too. I have cautioned greg to be more civil, you've only encouraged Boody in his disruptive behavior. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:51, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus, saying Greg's fault is that he "dared" use the word Jew is patronizing and doesn't help your case or his. The problem is not that he used the word "Jew," it is how he has used the word "Jew." You yourself wrote on my talk page that he used the word "Jew" in an offensive way ("Hmmm, I don't think that saying "you are playing a Jew" is antisemitic (it is however a bad faithed, offensive remark)."). Well, that is the whole point. If a person writes "you are a dick" they are just being offensive. But if a person makes an offensive comment predicated on race, it is a racist comment. If they make an offensive comment predicated on somenone's being Jewish, it is an anti-Semitic remark. Greg's pattern of comments suggests that he does not view his fellow editors as fellow editors; some are Polish editors, some are Lithuanian editors, some are Jewish editors ... and that any edit a Jew makes is a "Jewish" edit. Shakespeare understood that this gets at the heart of anti-Semitism, I think others here will see it too.

In any event, I do not see how this so-called "finding of fact" has anything to do with the Arb Com case against Piotrus. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:59, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Slr, I'd prefer to keep this discussion in one place (our talk pages). I wrote that Greg was seen as some as having used the word Jew in a offensive way, when in fact he hasn't (all he did was to claim Boody has a Jewish POV, a claim which doesn't appear to me offensive in any way, just as a claim that I have a Polish POV is perfectly fine). And yes, editors differ, the problem arises only when one assumes that for example that "Jewish editors are damaging this project", which greg most certainly did not. He simply stated that Boody's edits show a Jewish POV, which is a reasonable comment (although I agree, it's best not to discuss editors in any way - Boody however claimed he has no POV, and is neutral, which was making any progress in discussion with him hard, particularly when others self-identified themselves as having a Polish POV, and he was still towing the line of being the no-POV neutral editor). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:13, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

And what exactly was this "Jewish POV?" Specifically? Slrubenstein | Talk 20:35, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-08-02 History of the Jews in Poland were this is discussed in detail. In particular, see the section "Problem statement", where Boody, after having been repeatedly asked to declare his POV, stated that "My POV, if I need to describe it, would be to get this article closer to mainstream scholarship" (doesn't that sound pretty? :). The few months I've known him it became clear to me that he shows above-average interest in Jewish-related topics and his argument echo those of Jewish historiography. There is nothing wrong with that - other than the fact that he refuses to admit this, and sees his POV as NPOV. His refusals to admit that he has a certain POV (when he repeatedly accuses others of having other POVs - like Polish POV - which nobody denies in any case) is at the cornerstone of his disruptive edits and attitude, as I've explained in this essay. When Greg stated - in some instances, in a somewhat uncivil fashion (annoyed and even baited, as I believe, by Boody's constant refusal to portray himself as anything else but a perfectly neutral editor and defender of NPOV) - that Boody has a "Jewish POV", he got accused of antisemitism. That's the entire story in a nutshell.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:58, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Directing me to a mediation case is hardly providing me with something specific. I searched through the page you indicate and do not see anyone using the term "Jewish POV." I did however look at some of the edit-conflicts between you and Boodles, for example, this. Now, why should it matter what the race or religion of the editor is who put in the material you deleted? I think that all that matters is our policies: is this a notable point of view? Is it verifiable? Is it from a reliable source? Is the source clearly identified? I see several sources, including Robert Sanders, who one can say is expressing a Jewish POV, and also Timothy Snyder, whi is expressing the POV of an academic historian. But what does the identity of the Misplaced Pages editor have to do with any of this, and why is it at all a reason for deleting the edit? If an edit complies with NPOV and V and NOR by adding content from notable and reliable sources, shouldn't any Misplaced Pages editor support it, whether Jewish or Gentile, Protestant or Catholic or Russian Orthodox, Communist or Liberal, blond haired or brown haired, tall person or short person? Boodles made an edit and you are claiming his edit expresses a Jewish POV. Why isn't it possible that a non-Jew could have made the same edit, added the same material? What makes this a "Jewish" edit and why is Boodles race relevant to your having deleted his edit?

By the way, just to be clear: I saw on the talk page that you know of several sources that say General Pilsudski was not an anti-Semite. I would not label any of those sources as expressing a "Polish" POV. Several of them appear to be academic historians too. Here is what you should have done: you should have created a section on the controversy over whether the General was anti-Semitic (for people to explicitly argue that someone is not an anti-Semite sugests that some people think the person is an anti-Semite i.e. there is some controversy) and provide the range of views. Then you, Boodles, and others can negotiate over the right way to characterize different views. But there is a longstanding principle at Misplaced Pages, which is to add verifiable content to create NPOV, and not to delete verifiable content. At least, this is my view, however you want to characterize it... Slrubenstein | Talk 21:45, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

The piece of the puzzle which I think you are missing is WP:UNDUE: editor's POV determines what he things is relevant and what is not. Also, from WP:NOT - Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Sometimes, reliably sourced and verifiable information has no place in a given article. Sometimes, editors with a certain POV will not see it that way: an editor with a Polish POV, for example, will assign greater weight to German crimes against Poland than editors from other countries, and an editor with German POV will assign the smallest weight. If those editors can see their POV, they can reach a neutral version. If one of them thinks his POV is neutral, he will refuse to compromise. In case of Pilsudski, there is little controversy: only a tiny majority of sources claim against the consensus he was an anti-semite; to discuss this in detail in the article would create an undue bias, favoring editors who have an anti-Pilsudski bias (or others, which include this one). To give you another example: at one point an important American politician was criticized in Poland for "You forgot Poland" remark. An editor with a Polish POV may want to stress this in various places, when in fact it is a minor issue that does not need more coverage in general articles - it is of UNDUE weight. Most Polish-POV editors will, when this is explained to them, agree with that view and drop the issue. But a "true believer" will stop at nothing to advertise this issue across Misplaced Pages articles.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:26, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Proposed remedies

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Boodles is restricted

1) Boodles, who has shown a clear tendency to revert war a lot and harass others with extreme incivility, is put on a permanent 1 year 1RR and civility parole. Because he has turned the previously peacefully articles on Polish-Jewish topics into battlegrounds, he is banned from that content area.

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Support. Having Featured History of the Polish Jews and having worked peacefully with many others editors in that content area, I believe this would be a reasonable solution, restoring peace, quiet and good will to the Polish-Jewish subject area.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:22, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

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Oppose Greg is misremembering when he says that the articles on Polish-Jewish topics were peaceful before Boodles became involved with them. For example, look at Talk:History of the Jews in Poland#"who were conscripts like other citizens of the country," and Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/History of Jews in Poland/archive1. If 1RR is deemed appropriate, it should apply equally to all editors who edit articles on Polish-Jewish history, most of whom have engaged in edit-warring at one time or another. — ] (] · ]) 21:05, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Many articles have occasional incidents. Since Boody appeard, all Polish-Jewish history is an ongoing incident, with Boody revert warring everywhere and accusing his opponents of anti-semitism.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:22, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

No I accuse them of anti-semitism when they are being anti-semitic, as in the case of Greg, whose anti-semitism a number of editors have pointed out. You, Piotrus, seem not only to be tolerant of such anti-semitism and defending of it, you have gone as far as threatening to block me for challenging it. This might be excusable if you had learned from your errors from months ago; your persistence in empowering anti-semites who have allied themseelves with you, however, is quite disturbing. Boodlesthecat 21:27, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Guilt by association? I am not surprised. I rest my case, it's not like I need to prove anything more, evidence of bad faith and spurious personal attacks is quite rich. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:31, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh please. Guilt by association? Does this overt abuse of admin authority in defence of an anti-semite look like "guilt by association?" Are your repeated pleadings on behalf of the Jew baiter Greg "guilt by association"? Not in any reading of the term. Guilt by (your own) actions, Piotus. Nothing more, nothing less. Boodlesthecat 21:36, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

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User:greg park avenue has engaged in incessant posting of bigoted, belligerent and antisemitic attacks

1) User:greg park avenue has engaged in anti-semitic attacks, transparently false charges of sockpuppetry, repeated acts of incivility, while contributing no little actual content to Misplaced Pages, instead devoting the bulk of his contributions to uncivil attacks on other editors, peppered with anti-semitic vulgarities. sadly, Greg is consistently empowered and supported in his bigotry by User:Piotrus, who consistently defends Greg's bigotry (in a most disturbing manner--by claiming that Greg is "provoked" by other editors, echoing the twisted logic used by whitewashers of anti-semitism throughout history that Jews "provoke" anti-semitism by their actions). Piotrus has, again quite disturbingly, gone as far as threatening to (ab)use his admin authority in defense of Greg's flagrant, vicious Jew baiting (note that removal of this anti-semitic BLP violation by Greg was ultimately upheld despite Piotrus bullying threats of a blo0ck. Boodlesthecat 20:41, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

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"while contributing no actual content to Misplaced Pages": User:Greg park avenue has a list on his linked userpage of articles that he created/expanded; the first part can be easily confirmed by this tool. And his 8 articles compared to Boody's 0 tell a very interesting story about two editors with quite different editing strategies.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 02:07, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Greg has a grand total of 235 mainspace edits, representing 3/16 of his total edits. Boodles, on the other hand, has 1,707 mainspace edits, representing more than 1/2. Who is the more productive editor? "A very interesting story" indeed, although it's clear that the numbers don't tell the whole tale, but the obvious conclusion is that Greg isn't the productive editor you paint him to be. — ] (] · ]) 19:17, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

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Support (1) Regarding Greg's antisemitic comments, see my remarks at #Greg is not an antisemite above. (2) Greg's persistence in looking for evidence that Boodles and I are sockpuppets is to be commended. It's a shame he doesn't understand the fact that two editors may have common interests without being socks. A look at my contributions and those of Boodles would show that we edit primarily in different areas of Misplaced Pages, although there are a few small areas of overlap. (3) Greg needs too understand the importance of civility. In one instance, he threatened to kick the sorry ass of an admin. 'Nuff said. — ] (] · ]) 20:26, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Regarding your point (2) I agree with you (as I've stated elsewhere many times). Greg's accusations of sock/meatpuppetry against you are as sensible as the ones coming from editors arguing for a Polish cabal (i.e. baseless and bad faithed). I also agree with (3) - that greg needs to be more civil. Unfortunately, I fail to understand why you are completely ignoring much more serious incivility ("dick emails" and so on) coming from Boody. I cautioned greg to be more civil, officially on his talk pages and I've supported you here; you reward Boody with barnstars in the aftermath of him sending me offensive emails :( --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:14, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

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User:greg park avenue receive appropriate sanctions for his incessant incivility, personal attacks, and bigoted statements

1) User:greg park avenue receive appropriate sanctions for his incessant incivility, personal attacks, and bigoted statements

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Proposed principles

There are no 'get out of jail free' cards on Misplaced Pages.

1) There are no 'get out of jail free' cards on Misplaced Pages. Being an established user with plenty of edits or an admin does not exempt you from obedience to Misplaced Pages policies or investigation.

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Support, per my statements above. Exemptions are bad. What is needed is perspective, as I've explained here.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:02, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

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Proposed. Based on WP:JAIL. I was stunned to see that administrator Piotrus trying to justify bad deeds by stressing one's prolificness . Good insight about such behavior can be found is recent comment. M.K. (talk) 11:25, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Higher standards of administrators

2) Misplaced Pages's administrators are held to a higher standard of behavior than other users.

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Support. Standard proposal.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:02, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

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Proposed. Important issue - sysops are entrusted with delicate tools by community, with additional rights; additional rights leads to additional responsibility and higher conduct standard. M.K. (talk) 11:35, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

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Comment by Darwinek

Several days ago I suffered a headache. Why? I went through only several percent of this RFARB comments/statements/evidence. I am absolutely cool and neutral about this RFARB, and to be honest with you, I don't really care about the outcome. From my outside point of view it seems to be just a heated, self-accelerating confrontation between two parties. Alex is my friend, Piotrus is my friend, I have good relations with some users who confront with Piotrus, although I must admit some users act frequently below the line of good behaviour. Both parties have positive input in en wp, both create good and valuable articles about Poland or Lithuania (which is btw extremely vital in WP overflowed with articles about Texas or California), both enrich our community, but both also confront each other and from time to time participate in some edit warring (which I was regrettably participant a few times) and heated discussions. It is clear to me that some users feel strong negative feelings towards each other, which rather don't help our community. I would like to see both parties happy and content. But this is not some Pleasantville, WP is a part of real world and various confrontations occur in real world. This process is healthy for any society, as it denotes plurality, so precious. I know, I know, "Misplaced Pages is not a democracy", I just wanted to remind that 1.) Both parties confront (sometimes in nasty way) and ain't holy. 2.) It is quite normal, although more temperance is definitely needed. One closing remark - I think members of ArbCom and other users who will try to resolve this case should get some huge hug or free beer from all participants, because it's a really huge (amount of text, diffs etc.) case. Regards and good luck to all. - Darwinek (talk) 19:47, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Analysis of evidence

Place here items of evidence (with diffs) and detailed analysis

Irpen's discovery of Piotrus' evidence list: evidence of stalking?

Irpen's claim that he "accidentally" discovered this list via some unrelated Google searching doesn't add up. What possible combinations of search terms could reveal this evidence list? Was the list apparent in the first couple of pages of results or did he have to dig down and sift through dozens of pages of Google search results?

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Perhaps Irpen could post the original google url that contains the search strings that lead him to "accidentally" discover this list. Martintg (talk) 23:51, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Now, I was about to leave for a few days but I've got to respond to this vile. Martin, you are effectively accusing me of lying. I can only repeat that my explanation given in this thread is the Truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The Black Book was on the first page of google results. Maybe Pitorus made some sort of a mistake when he left the page in the intermediate condition for several days and it made it googleable at that particular unfortunate time of our unrelated dispute when he challenged me to find the reference to our past discussion claiming he never said what he said. Piotrus took measures to prevent his Black Book discovery by logging out before adding stuff to it. So I would not have been able to find it by stalking. That is on top of the fact that I certainly never ever stalked Piotrus. I really do not remember the exact date nor the google string as I explained here. I have no habit of lying. There must be a limit Martin to the absurd nonsense you keep saying around about myself. It is plain obvious by now that you conduct is egregiously vindictive. Grow up! --Irpen 01:23, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

So Irpen explains that he has found the black book accidentally doing a vanity search. What are the other theories? The edits were done from a dynamic IP on Polish wiki. Irpen monitors all the recent changes in Polish wiki? Irpen monitors all the anonymous IP from Pensylvania? It looks like extraordinary hypothesises require extraordinary proof. Unless the proof is provided I would ote oppose Alex Bakharev (talk) 12:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree Alex, the hypothesis that Irpen found the evidence page "by accident", with it appearing on the first page of the returned Google results as he claims, is indeed extraordinary. Hence that was why I asked for the Google URL Irpen used so that we can replicate the result. Martintg (talk) 00:04, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I made at least one edit, early on, logged in (). As I've explained: I wanted to keep this semi-private (hidden from google to avoid offending people doing google vanity search), but if anybody wanted to dedicate considerable time to stalking my pl edits, it was findable. I can think of several other ways one could trace me, too. I was curious if anybody would be that dedicated. Apparently, somebody was. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 02:23, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

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