Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 23:02, 29 September 2008

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Scientology, or anything not directly related to improving the Misplaced Pages article. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Scientology, or anything not directly related to improving the Misplaced Pages article at the Reference desk.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Scientology article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33Auto-archiving period: 30 days

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. United States Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Religion Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Misplaced Pages's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Scientology Top‑importance This article is supported by WikiProject Scientology, a collaborative effort to help develop and improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of Scientology. The aim is to write neutral and well-referenced articles on Scientology-related topics. See WikiProject Scientology and Misplaced Pages:Contributing FAQ.ScientologyWikipedia:WikiProject ScientologyTemplate:WikiProject ScientologyScientology Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Skepticism Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science, pseudoscience, pseudohistory and skepticism related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SkepticismWikipedia:WikiProject SkepticismTemplate:WikiProject SkepticismSkepticism Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

	Scientology is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination was archived. For older candidates, please check the archive.
Article milestones Date Process Result January 19, 2004 Refreshing brilliant prose Not kept

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Scientology in Belgium

This articles states "Belgium, France, Ireland, Luxembourg and the United Kingdom have not recognized Scientology as a religion". That's true, but there's more. In Belgium, Scientology is listed as a dangereous sect with criminal objectives. Stating that is much more powerful than just saying it's not recognized as a religion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.241.180.95 (talk) 17:15, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

And in Norway you are considered a flaming homosexual if you practice Scientology —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.48.112.44 (talk) 14:12, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Excesive citation in very first sentance

I know that the fact that Hubbard was a science fiction author is bound to be contentious but are 8 citations really necessary? They are breaking up the very first sentence of the article. Wouldn't 2 or 3 RS be enough? -IcĕwedgЁ (ťalķ) 05:33, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, however it would probably be prudent place the remaining links to the References section. - -NotHugo- - (talk) 12:41, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

date format choice

It's consistently international rather than US, which I've retained after auditing. However, please review this, since the topic appears to be fairly US-related. In the end, though, international would be defensible if the organisation is truly international. Tony (talk) 03:58, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

It is truly international. While small, the organization has memberships in many countries. The article contains references and sections devoted to Scientology's international presence. I think it makes sense to leave the current date scheme in place. --GoodDamon 19:16, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality

The general phrasing and design of the article greatly favors Scientology. It does seem that the moderators of this are so strict of any critical tone in the submission of the article that actual neutrality becomes impossible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.116.169.128 (talk) 08:39, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Can you give examples where you think it favours Scientology? MartinPoulter (talk) 13:13, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Scientology Defined

{{editsemiprotected}} Scientology is also known as "The Most Ridiculous Religion in the History of Humankind."

 Not done Declined. Unsourced, probably unverifiable and not neutral. --Rodhullandemu 15:45, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, it seems, you haven't heard of the religion Pastafarianism (http://www.venganza.org). Unfortunately, people have no common sense and do not understood what God and religion is all about. As long as people take religion seriously and believe that their holy book is be all and end all and 'their' god is the best, such religions will keep pooping up to shake the fundamentalists... RAmen! 76.112.207.80 (talk) 05:26, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I have. Still requires a source. See below. --Rodhullandemu 15:24, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't seem like a very neutral view. However, the article should probably add some of the topics under controversies to more relevant sections. Also, as pointed out, the article seems to be attempting to retain too much neutrality, in that, it does not properly separate the stated beliefs with actually shown beliefs. Also, I think it should be given semi-protected status as it's an obvious target, not just for vandals, but for slight, minor edits by pro-scientology organizations. Also, exclusion from the religion portal would be logical, as it is a very small, minor group, known more for media attention then actual action. The creation of a grouping that involves scientology and other related large cults/minor religions and irreligions might be a good idea Zanotam - Google me (talk) 22:33, 20 September 2008 (UTC)zanotam

Kenja

"Scientology splinter groups" should mention the Australian Kenja cult, the subject of the "Beyond Our Ken" documentary. Panic Tools (talk) 23:30, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

We have to be careful here. I carry no torch for Scientology in the slightest, but a cursory examination shows some relationship in that former CoS members are involved. To take that to an assertion that this is somehow an offshoot of Scientology would require a reliable source that this is so. One thing you have to be aware of here is that whereas it's very easy to set up some sort of pseudo-religious system, (a) it's less easy to objectively provide evidence of the validity of such a system beyond its own values and (b) even harder to extend that system to other, even ostensibly derivative systems. This is not limited to Scientology, and applies equally to Christianity, Judaism and Islam. It also applies, if you look at it, to The Flying Spaghetti Monster and Invisible Pink Unicorn. Bottom line is that this encyclopedia requires evidence, and if you can provide a reliable source beyond innuendo that Kenja is in fact a de facto splinter group of Scientology, then please do so. A third-party comparison of the constitutions of both organisations would satisfy that requirement. --Rodhullandemu 23:58, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Celebrities

Not sure how to do proper sub headings sorry but maybe someone should add something about the reports that Pink has started in scientology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.150.89.237 (talk) 15:46, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Can you give a link to a reliable source for this? Thanks. --Rodhullandemu 15:49, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Slanted Synopsis of Scientology

The present submission for Scientology is extremely slanted and misleading. I highly recommend that the adminstrators of this page contact the church directly in order to receive accurate information on this subject. It's a careless, or perhaps calculated, abuse of power to hold in here a submission that would falsely sway people into misconceptions and suspicions about Scientology. You wouldn't want your own religion slanted, so don't do it to others please. Drakodan (talk) 13:58, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

We are meant to pursue a neutral point of view here; although some of CoS own material is cited (and some would say too much), to add more might well prejudice that policy- which is one our most important ones. --Rodhullandemu 14:58, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, that would be fine if it were a religion. But it isn't. It's a dangerous and greedy cult that destroys lives and families, steals and lies to its followers and brutally treats anyone who opposes them. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.235.164.231 (talk) 02:28, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Again, these allegations are already dealt with as far as reliable sources can be found. --Rodhullandemu 14:58, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

• Just a reminder, in case you weren't aware, that the Arbitration Committee has placed all Scientology-related articles on probation, which means they are under special scrutiny. --Rodhullandemu 14:58, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Really. This article is one with the lowest standards on Misplaced Pages (aside from stubs). Derflipper (talk) 22:11, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Really? It is one of the most carefully-researched and watched articles we have; it has evolved and received the attention of editors who are pro-Scientology, anti-Scientology and those who have no specific interest in the topic beyond applying our policies for ensuring it is encyclopedic, which in this context means "neutral" and "reliably sourced". It has received attention from the highest authorities in Misplaced Pages as far as conduct, if not content, is concerned. Vandalism is generally reverted within minutes, and that includes biased and unreliable edits. If you have any specific concerns about the article, I invite you to articulate them here and now. Luckily I have most of October free and will be able to deal with any issues you may have, and probably within an hour or so, unless I'm asleep, which doesn't tend to happen that much. --Rodhullandemu 22:20, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I didn't want to sound generalizing and I can see that almost every second word has its own reference... but something like proofreading the article would probably help even more ("One of the major tenants of Scientology is a belief"??? or "Hubbard established Scientology's doctrines during a period from 1952 until his death in January 1986, establishing the basic principles in the 1950s and 1960s."????). I have seen the edit wars around this article and I don't want any part of it, otherwise I would try to group the content better. For example the controversies section reads like a shopping list and though I read the whole article I still don't know what scientology is (except that some people don't like it, which I knew since the "origin and definition" section). Maybe you find the time and maybe I can help you. Let me know. Derflipper (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Introduction

The last paragraph in the introduction seems poorly written. The opening sentence of that paragraph uses the term "Space Opera" incorrectly. It also states that the belief about alien spirits is a "major tenet" of Scientology and provides no source. This seems like someone's unbacked opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Matt2053 (talk • contribs) 22:45, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, there is a source after the paragraph. Also, the Space opera page links to the Space Opera article here on Misplaced Pages.WacoJacko (talk) 01:18, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I went ahead and added an additional reference to the paragraph.WacoJacko (talk) 01:33, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Major "tenant" of scientology? Derflipper (talk) 22:12, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

• All unassessed articles
• C-Class United States articles
• Mid-importance United States articles
• C-Class United States articles of Mid-importance
• WikiProject United States articles
• C-Class Religion articles
• Mid-importance Religion articles
• WikiProject Religion articles
• C-Class Scientology articles
• Top-importance Scientology articles
• WikiProject Scientology articles
• C-Class Skepticism articles
• Mid-importance Skepticism articles
• WikiProject Skepticism articles
• Misplaced Pages former brilliant prose
• Misplaced Pages controversial topics