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Revision as of 17:50, 1 October 2008

Some of the news items indicate that General Labh Singh was the second (and NOT first) cheif general of Khalistan Commando Force. If this is true then please provide any references which could indicate that Mr. Manvir Singh Chehru was the first General of this force and Labh Singh became 'Cheif General" afterwards only.

I have reverted the main article to its earlier version because of following reasons

Respected Daulakh,

Please remember that some fanatics like you have also started calling Shahid Bhagat Singh a terrorist. The way you have edited this biography, indicates your hatred for Khalistani leaders. Please note that Misplaced Pages is not a place to propagate your own hatred and suppress history.

• 1. Indian Government's calling KCF a terror outfit does not mean that it survived during 1980s and 1990s without public support.
• 2. The way you removed his involvement in the famous battle of Operation Blue Star from "Infobox Military Person" indicates that you want to suppress the true history and you want to eliminate these history pages from the world.
• 3. Labh Singh's attacking Director General of Police during full day light inside fortified Punjab Armed Police headquarters automatically makes it a daring act regardless of it being NPOV or POV. But you have edited it so that it look like very normal terrorist act, for example no one can ever call Shahid Bhagat Singh's bomb explosions inside Parliament building as a mere terrorist act.
• 4. You changed sentence Indian Security forces claimed that he was killed in an exchange of fire with the police to "he was killed.....". His way of killing is a dispute between Sikhs Hardliners and Indian Security forces. Your edition makes it POV.
• 5. Why I used his name as "General Labh Singh" was because he was famously known by this name. Please note that I did not use word "General" with his predecessor "Manbir Singh Chaheru", because he was famously known with this name only.
• 6. I agree with you that the title 'General' was a self-proclaimed title. Only regular armies can use the title, hence I will keep his name without this title in most of the text. And I refer to him as a leader of this organization.
• 7. Regarding you "Revision as of 20:38, 31 March 2008" - (Removed a lot of stuff that looks like the terror group's manual on organizational hierarchy). I have coped this information from Khalistan Commando Force's main page on Misplaced Pages. Since this structure was his creation hence it is required to be added in his biography. I believe you couldn't digest his being "undisputed head" word. But, please note that truth is truth.
• 8. Regarding your "Revision as of 20:40, 31 March 2008", where you removed his father-in-law's suicide because of police harassment, it appears that you simply want to hide Indian security force's criminal acts from Misplaced Pages community. And you want to show his family's migration to foreign country as a routine event. Please note that his father-in-law's suicide because of his being ‘mercilessly’ beaten up by the Punjab Police was published in famous Indian newspaper, i.e. "The tribune", i.e. ]. The provided references which you had deleted were from the same newpaper. If you are an Indian then you definitely know what "The tribune" is. Please stop this vandalism/ cruelty on Misplaced Pages database.

Because of all these reasons, I am forced to revert it to its original formSingh6 (talk) 21:16, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Reasons for reverts

• He is self-appointed. The KCF is not a real military outfit. It is a rag-tag team of militants. As such, anyone who calls himself a "General" of such a outfit has delusions of grandeur and suffers from megalomania. At any rate, he IS obviously self-appointed since no real authority seems to have appointed him.
• Regarding "This bank robbery was biggest of other similar actions which Sikh militants did to weaken the government and to use Indian Money against Indian Security forces." -- This is completely unsubstantiated. Furthermore, it is completely unnecessary and useless, and also OR. There is nothing to suggest that the militants did it to "weaken the government". It's enough to mention that they robbed a bank.
• The last point regarding the suicide, and the reference for it. The reference mentions NOTHING about suicide. Since that text is unsubstantiated and obviously fabricated, it goes.
• "Battle" is pointless. It's a peacock term. "Encounters" is more than enough.

I'm all for compromise, but I'm not going to sit here while people add ridiculous things to this article. --vi5in 15:45, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Answers

Vivin, discussions are started with good faith to stop the edit wars, and not to force the versions of your own liking. You preferred to force your own POV article version prior to starting the discussion (that too, when I forced you to do so).

• Your sentence “As such, anyone who calls himself a "General" of such a outfit has delusions of grandeur and suffers from megalomania” proves your hate for the subject. I do not believe that Che Guevara, Sukhdev Singh Babbar, Subhas Chandra Bose, Labh Singh, leaders of Ghadar Party, leaders of American Revolution and leaders of several other independence organizations who used armed struggles to achieve their goals ever had such delusions of grandeur and also I strongly believe that they did not suffered from megalomania. So rank “General” is “General” even if it was bestowed upon these guys by thousands of militants/ revolutionists who followed their orders until their deaths OR by their extremely close circle associates.
• Chicago Sun Times states (About this specific robbery) that the robbery was the latest by Sikh extremists, who have raided banks to finance a bloody four-year campaign to make Punjab state - the only part of India where Sikhs are a ... . It means that they robbed this bank to finance their anti-indian/ pro-khalistan movement. Los Angeles Times, in an article related to this biggest bank robbery of Indian history state that Bank robberies have been a major means of financing the Sikh militants' violent campaign for a separate state they call Khalistan. Bank robberies occur almost every week in Punjab. It also states that The Sikhs fled in a van after filling sacks with 58 million rupees-$4.5 million. Part of the money belonged to the Reserve Bank of India, the country's central bank, which does not have a branch in the city. Police said the robbers shouted slogans supporting Khalistan. Bank employees told the Press Trust of India news agency that the robbers said they would use the loot to buy arms. .

Since a major part of the looted money belonged to Reserve Bank of India, hence it was a double attack where Sikh militants weakened the Indian Government finacially and they used the same Indian money to buy arms to attack Indian security forces. Hence, The sentence "This bank robbery was biggest of other similar actions which Sikh militants did to weaken the government and to use Indian Money against Indian Security forces" simply state the same, but in less complicated sentences. Deletion of this sentence portrays Sikh militants as robbers only (which is POV) and not its significance.

• Now for your kind information only --> Eventhough Sikh militants were attacking Indian Security Forces, but! In addition, they were also attacking Indian infrastructure and robbing Indian banks which resulted in weakening the Government financially. Cynthia Keppley Mahmood in her book "Fighting for Faith and Nation: Dialogues With Sikh Militants", published by University of Pennsylvania Press, 1996 state that Sikh Militants were robbing banks, attacking Government properties and Indian security forces. In April 1984 alone, they attacked 37 Railway stations.

• The reference which you are intentionally deleting, i.e. The Tribune clearly state “...father-in-law of Sukha lived in the abandoned house after his death for a while. However, he committed suicide by jumping himself before a train after he was ‘mercilessly’ beaten up by the police". Vivin, I am hurt to see that you are deleting a valid reference only to murder the history and show your POV version. Hey God ???. Vivin, kindly overcome your hate and please spare the dead souls and history at least.

• Since Mr Labh Singh alias Sukha also fought against Indian Army during Operation Blue Star hence word "battle" is needed. This operation was carried out by Indian Army troops with tanks and armored vehicles which are used in heavy battles and not in mere encounters. Indian Chief of Army Staff General Arun Vaidya was assisted by Lt. Gen. K. Sunderjee as Vice-Chief in this battle. Even Indian Army could not win this battle until the third day hence using word “encounter” will be a "LIE" and a "hate" towards the subject (which is POV). And I want to stand with the facts, i.e. NPOV version.

So, Respected Vivin, I am be reverting your version now. If any other respected Misplaced Pages editor has any questions, kindly put them over here and I will answer.--Singh6 (talk) 18:57, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

If you're going to discuss the article can you do it without pointless hyperbole and drama? It's hard reading through all (words like "LIE" and "HATE" do little to further your discussion) that to figure out what you're actually saying. As far as the points go:

• You realize that the KCF is not an actual military force? So calling himself a "General" actual means nothing other than just a ceremonial title. He could have called himself "Super Big-Chief Head Kahuna Of All I Survey" and it wouldn't have made a difference. The title is self-appointed. If you claim it was "bestowed" upon him by his followers or whoever, then bring sources to back that up.
• You should have simply added that in there instead of accusing me of trying to delete it or, distort history, or desecrate the souls of the dead and the living and their cats. That sentence initially existed in the article without any sort of references or reliable source and hence was speculation.
• You realize that robbing makes you a robber, correct? The law doesn't distinguish between people who rob to buy a thousand teddy bears to give to homeless children or people who rob to buy bombs and guns to blow up and kill people. Robbing is robbing, and those who "rob" are "robbers", like those who "dance" are "dancers". I can go on all day.
• Your point is mere speculation. Can you say definitely that they weakened the government? I am completely ok with you adding in points saying that they did it to weaken the government. Realize (like I mentioned before) that no sources existed to back up that sentence earlier.
• That was entirely my fault and I apologize. The reference I looked at was this one, and it didn't mention the suicide.
• Ok, if you have a source that says that he was involved in Operation Bluestar we can add that in there. But it was just Operation Bluestar which was a military operation and not a "battle". You can only use "battle" in the figurative sense here and that would be a "peacock" term. Battles usually occur between sizeable military forces. Not between a rag-tag team of militants and an army.

Now I should point out your obvious bias in this subject. You clearly think that these people were some sort of larger-than-life heroes and you don't want a neutral treatment of the subject. You keep talking about NPOV and then get mad when people try to tone down your article and present it in an encylopaedic form. I'd much rather it be in that form than a fanpage. --vi5in 22:45, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

You also realize that by pointing out people like Che Guevara you're actually proving my point? A revolutionary leader with that much impact doesn't even have a militaryperson infobox on his page. He's not even called "General" "Commandante". I'm thinking of replacing the militaryperson infobox with a normal one like in Che Guevara. --vi5in 23:21, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

References

1. http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-3810376.html
2. http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/58240583.html?dids=58240583:58240583&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Feb+13%2C+1987&author=&pub=Los+Angeles+Times+(pre-1997+Fulltext)&desc=Sikh+Separatists+Masquerade+as+Police+to+Stage+India's+Biggest+Bank+Robbery&pqatl=google
3. http://books.google.com/books?id=wA3yjdgyY9kC&pg=RA1-PA79-IA3&lpg=RA1-PA79-IA3&dq=Bank+robberies+punjab+Faith+and+Nation&source=web&ots=oxi-4CgC5N&sig=oZUaoW7V_9LGOI9OIAbRzI-HtpY&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

Death was in Khalstan what now?

It says he died in Punjab, Khalistan? ARYAN818 (talk) 17:50, 1 October 2008 (UTC)