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Attunement

something is up with 11:11 and synchronicity ther is something happening soon. While I think the first two sentences are correct, I think the remainder:

The process of becoming intuitively aware and harmonious with these forces is what Jung labelled "synchronicity." Jung purported that a person that reached this enlightened state could actually shape events around them through the enjoining of one's awareness with these universal forces.

Would be closer to correct if it read:

The process of becoming intuitively aware and acting harmoniously with these forces is what Jung labelled "individuation." Jung said that an individuated person would actually shape events around them through the communication of their consciousness with the collective unconscious.

In fact, I'm convinced enough I'll change it for now. -- Someone else 06:37 Nov 11, 2002 (UTC)

While I see the reason for the dissatisfaction with the previous version, I don't feel satisfied with the update, particularly without references. 'The process of becoming intuitively aware and harmonious with these forces' is arguably the opposite of individuation. I would prefer 'attunement,' but whether 'Jung said' that is another matter altogether! Etaonsh 08:06, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Easy Definition

I'm a fairly smart guy, but as I read the definition of synchronicity I still can't tell what makes it different from coincidence. Can this article begin with a less technical definition, then expand on it using the big words?

The Example, though intriguing, also seems like coincidence; what makes it synchronicity instead?

ShawnVW 06:57, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

How's that? --Mjformica 12:48, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

As bad as before. If I meet M. Fontgibu while eating plum pudding, then M. Dumas while eating potatoes, then M. Dupont while not eating anything, that's not synchronicity because it's not meaningful, but it's not a coincidence either. (Or would you say, after M. Dupont enters the room, "Oh! What a coincidence!"? I wouldn't.) I guess there simply is no difference. --Hob Gadling 20:02, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

There is no defined difference between synchronicity and coincidence. A coincidence is an observation that there are no causal connections between two events. Since two events with a synchronistic connection have no causal relationship, the connection is indeed a coincidence. But let's say a coincidence can be a "mere coincidence" (meaning no synchronistic connection between the events) or something more than a coincidence (meaning also a synchronistic connection).

The theory of synchronicity states that such coincidences can have an acausal connection. If one imagines cause-effect relationships as following straight vertical lines, then synchronistic relationships would be horizontal. Since they don't follow cause-effect, they are probably by their nature unprovable.

Taking the theory further, it may be that all coincidences have synchronistic connections. Mathematicians like Rudy Rucker actually believe that synchronicity is a crucial part of what makes up the physical universe, and that it is all-prevalent, like causality itself. There are many more interesting aspects to the theory, such as how it relates to the collective unconscious and symbols and gods etc.

(Looking at the article now, I think it actually is a little misleading. It states that synchronicity is "not just a happenstance", but causally speaking it is just that, and most people would think about words like "happenstance" and "coincidence" in a causal way. But of cource, the trouble is in explaning this without using such words. It's a bit like describing how a timeline could change as a result of time travel, words like "before" and "after" don't suffice anymore.) 193.91.181.142 02:37, 7 March 2007 (UTC) (Nick Knutsen)

The problem here is Jung, while highly accredited and acclaimed, was a mystic, and this was integral to his work. This article's definition of Synchronicity is typical of this aspect of his writing, and the writings of those who followed him. Its language is a highly obfuscatory way of saying "a mysterious law of physical reality which causes complex events to shape themselves in ways meaningful to observers". To the hard-nosed rationalist the phrasing is unintelligible, and so shields the premise from ridicule. Don't bother editing the article to reflect that, however. Jung adherents will do even more to refute it than his critics.

Search YouTube for Carl Jung interviews. You'll find him stating his mystical beliefs explicitly to the popular press. — Clarknova (talk) 14:45, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

That does not make him a mystic. I cite "A Very Short Introduction to Jung", Oxford University press, wherein it is stated that he was not concerned that some of his interests might draw scorn. Jok2000 (talk) 19:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I also had trouble with the definition. I read it, it sounded interesting, and then I realized that I had understood none of it. There's no one statement that lays it out simply and clearly in words that the average person can understand. I've read the definition several times now, and I think the idea is that there's an underlying pattern causing all things to happen, as opposed to some of those things causing other of those things to happen. It took an awful lot of work to figure that out though, even assuming I'm getting it right.

(Actually, I'm thinking of the description, not the definition.)

76.234.127.204 (talk) 16:59, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Should Love be mentioned?

Fontgibu, or Fortgibu

Which one is it, or why is it presented in this manner? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.35.143.98 (talk) 08:29, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Of Course It Should...

For what is it we are really searching for? If not love then what? It is a question we need to ask more, I should think. For what are we truly capable of, when we are confident in the ones we love? Confident that they will be there for us no matter what. Even when all hope is lost, someone will always be there. Even when you think every possible force in this universe has left you, or turned against you or has just simply confused you, it will always be made clear to you how love is the most natural expression in the world. It is the expectation of nothing. The anticipation that something is always born. This is the true relevance of the world myth of a virgin birth.

Remember, friend that Jung's primary interest was what lay beyond the symbol, the force that animated it. That gave, what Jung called a numinousity. I hope my addition is not considered grafitti, or worse simple tom foolery. My intention was simply to add a reminder where one least expects it.

Causal or Acausal?

Did Jung say synchronicity was "a causal connecting principle" or an "acausal connecting principle"? Both versions are given at different points in the article. P Ingerson 17:29, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Acausal" it is. To me, the sentence

"Although not scientifically provable in the classical sense, a scientific basis for the phenomenon of synchronicity may be found in the principle of correlation, in so far as a more precise scientific term for Jung's expression 'a causal connecting principle' is 'correlation'"

does not make sense. As said in the next sentence, correlation does not imply causation, but neither does it exclude causation. So, correlation does not help defining synchronicity. I'm in favor of removing the whole correlation section, since all it does is confusing people. --Hob Gadling 19:22, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

Correlation is a useful principle in illustrating another instance where acausality is scientifically studied, plus it describes well the subjective experience of synchronicity.

Isn't that an irrelevant analogy, like astrologers saying "tides are caused by the moon, so planets can influence humans"? "Correlation is not concerned with causes, so synchronicity doesn't have to be either"? Correlation is a more or less well-defined statistical term, but synchronicity is just "Aww - lookitthat!" No connection here. --Hob Gadling 14:27, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

It isn't correct to define 'correlation' purely in statistical terms. Evidence correlates, its statistical aspect being just that, an aspect. Your belittling tone distinctly implies US swank 'debunking' school POV, and your reduction of 'correlation' to 'statistical correlation' indicates reductionism. Etaonsh 23:49, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

So you have your own definition of "correlation" which contains more than statistics, and you claim that the standard definition is "not correct". But that is your own POV and does not belong into an encyclopedia. The things you detect in me are indeed there (if I ignore your POV wording of some of them), but I don't see anything wrong with either debunking bunk or reductionism. So, your problem with my deviation from your opinion does not belong into an encyclopedia either. --Hob Gadling 11:30, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

No, I'm not using my own definition of correlation, but the standard one. Correlation is the observed outcome of one or more causes acting upon more than one separate object, the use of statistics in said observation being a pedestrian, time-serving distraction which happens to dominate the 'Correlation' entry in wayward Wiki. The problem with debunking and reductionism is the familiar danger of 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater.' If you genuinely weren't aware of any such dangers, the only immediate response which springs to mind is, 'Welcome to planet Earth.' --Etaonsh 11:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, so you are right and everyone else here is wrong about correlation. I can't say "welcome to planet Earth" back to you because you are obviously somewhere else.

So you think that my position contains dangers and your position does not? I am aware that every position, including the neutral one, threatens to color one's perception. I find it amusing that you are only aware of that in others, but not in yourself. Actually I think your anti-skeptic and anti-reductionism rhetorics is just a transparent trick that allows you to ignore what I say. --Hob Gadling 11:55, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's as simple as Etaonsh cuts it out to be. "Correlation" is no more a "scientific basis" for synchronicity than pirates cause global warming. In order for correlation to be put forward as a scientific explanation, a little more evidence is needed. It's not so much a matter of POV as definitions of words. Byrgenwulf 11:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say it was simple, but I am trying to point out that correlation is a long word for a very ordinary and mundane part of everyday life. When someone says, 'Everybody round here seems to be using marg these days - perhaps because it's on special offer at Tesco,' they are correlating - no statistics, no hocus-pocus, just part of everyday life. There is an acausal relationship - everybody round here using marg - with an underlying likely cause - a special offer. The difficulty arises when the underlying cause is unknown and/or hard to establish, as is often the case in these situations. --Etaonsh 12:15, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Ah, so your version of correlation is just a less accurate little brother of the statistics version. People can suspect a correlation but if one looks closer (by statistics), it may turn out not to be there. One common example is childbirth and full moon - lots of people, including midwives, believe that during full moons, more children are born, but statistical papers show it's just a cognitive illusion without a real correlation, causal or otherwise. I think your concept of correlation is indeed the same as the statistical one, but your methods of sniffing out correlations are less reliable. --Hob Gadling 13:01, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Sometimes 'little brothers' are despised and abused, only to rise up out of their pits to rule all Egypt and their erstwhile abusers. --Etaonsh 21:40, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Yup. "Correlation can also be described as an 'acausal connecting principle' " is nonsense. Correlation does not connect things. Correlation is just an indicator that things may be connected. That whole paragraph is nothing but hot air. --Hob Gadling 12:09, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Correlation does by definition connect things and events, and as you say, there may or may not be an underlying cause. 'Nothing but hot air' can be seen as epitomising the very contradiction inherent in debunking reductionism. --Etaonsh 12:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

You could as well say that connection connects things and events. It's just a word describing that there may be a connection, not an acting agent. --Hob Gadling 13:01, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

You're right in saying it's not an 'acting agent,' it's an organising agent. We organise together similar objects and events, and look for underlying causes (or, in the case of Jungians, underlying acauses, which are ultimately transparent nonsense and don't exist, apart from the correlation which can indicate and assist in tracking down common, underlying cause).

I think that paragraph should, perhaps, just be deleted. The knowing references it makes to quantum nonlocality/EPR stuff are meaningless: there is absolutely no reason to believe that nonlocal entanglement of the spin states of two photons can explain why my mother phones me just when I'm thinking about her. The paragraph, as it is, doesn't say anything: it reads like someone thinking out loud: "could it be this? no, it couldn't" and hence doesn't inform in any way. Byrgenwulf 12:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that in focusing on the 'quantum nonlocality/EPR stuff' in the paragraph you are getting warmer in hunting down its weakness. When Einstein first realised that nuclear physics was getting out of the control of its great minds, the subject lost its nerve and started going downhill. Modern theories of parallel lives and Littleworlds, where normal cosmic rules needn't apply, are transparent poppycock of the worst order. --Etaonsh 12:24, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Trivia

"In the d20 Modern supplement Urban Arcana, there is a spell known as 'Synchronicity', which subtly alters the laws of reality to make the mundanities of life more convenient for the caster, such as altering bus and taxi schedules so that they always appear within a maximum of four minutes after the caster begins waiting for one, and subtly moving pedestrians on crowded streets out of the way of the caster." I think this part should at least mention the context of a role-playing game. I was quite confused when i read it after the other text. 82.139.89.146 23:04, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. Rather than 'trivia,' I think your contribution has possible elucidatory value, if this isn't straying into original research. ESP is among the hypothetical possible explanations for synchronicitous phenomena. 23:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC) Etaonsh 06:16, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

"awkward silence"

Is the "awkward silence" (i.e. several conversations in close proximity all finish at the same time, and as a result the whole room goes quiet" an example of synchronicity, or merely a bog-standard coincidence? Chris talk back 00:50, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I would move that this falls more under the auspices of orgiastic union, herd behavior, and/or mob psychology than synchronicity. Unless a survey of the conversations revealed that they had a relationship to one another that was significant to one or more persons involved. --Mjformica 12:51, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Those unfamiliar with astrology are likely unaware that it provides natural explanations for seemingly unrelated coincidences - i.e., a macrocosmic explanation of seemingly unconnected events in the microcosm. I think Jung was aware of astrology as an explanation of synchronicity, but I'm not sure whether he explained the connection as clearly as that(?). It would be unfortunate if clear explanations are ruled out of order on original research grounds, as I have no current plans to make clear explanations elsewhere(!). Etaonsh 23:59, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but astrology does not provide any explanations for anything, since it itself does not have any theoretical basis. It's like synchronicity in that respect - it claims connections but does not really explain them. Explanation means reducing to already known facts - it always contains an element of information compression. Before the explanation you have a lot of unconnected facts (say, 100 GB, zipped), afterwards, you have a few basic rules (say, 1 kB, zipped) from which you can derive all those facts. Astrology does not do this - it generates "rules" and "exceptions" from them every time an astrologer does "research". The rules and exceptions still have 100 GB, zipped. --Hob Gadling 11:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

What one can say is that astrologers as a group are peculiarly closed to the public, statistical methods you and those like you espouse. But this is not to say that they are wholly unscientific, stupid, or barren of research. Perhaps they fear empowering scientific reductionism, and who can blame them? --Etaonsh 20:31, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Re Introductory Definition: 'Simultaneously'?

The definition seems faulty because, as examples on the page testify, events don't need to occur 'simultaneously' to constitute coincidence, meaningful or otherwise. I'll therefore alter to 'coincidentally.' Etaonsh 23:34, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Why is it that just cause you cant see it, touch it, smell it or any of that sort of thing that science says it dosn't exist. The non physical dimensions of reality have been run out of town. Why it it that talking about synchronistic events can create them? Luke

Alternative explanations

I am not too certain that the wording in the paragraph about correlation is correct. I cannot see how correlation, judging from the explanation giving there, can account for synchronicity...what I mean is, I know the argument, but it isn't particularly well expressed in the article. Moreover, it is by no means certain that quantum non-locality a la EPR and Bell is merely a correlatory relationship; furthermore, I would like to see a (plausible) citation for how this can account for synchronicity...because while the spin-entanglement of two photons is amply described by these states, so far as I am aware there has been no rigorous study extending this concept to macroscopic "co-incidence".

So if someone with more knowledge of this specific field could provide citations, etc and clarify the wording, please? Byrgenwulf 06:42, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's fair to say that EPR cannot be responsible for synchronicity simply because there is causality involved in quantum nonlocality; if synchronicity is caused by some "spooky action at a distance" through a means that wasn't understood in Jung's time (or, indeed, today), it would be more appropriate to tweak Jung's definition by adding the phrase "apparently acausal", which would allow us to explain the exact phenomenon Jung was describing by applying modern science. If an early chemist defined "combustion" as the release of phlogiston, we wouldn't say that oxidation wasn't a form of "combustion" because oxygen is involved rather than phlogiston. If we reach the point where we can replace Jung's metaphysical shared archetypes with real physical explanations, we'd have a better theory of synchronicity, but it would still be a theory of synchronicity. Geoffrey Spear 12:26, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree entirely...I have removed the EPR stuff, and replaced it with a bit of an explanation of causality and acausality. I wasn't quite sure exactly how synchronicity was being described here, but I think I have a good feel for it now, and to me the use of nonlocality is definitely speculative, and probably misplaced. Do let me know if the edit I made was too rash. Thanks! Byrgenwulf 12:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Could someone explain the following statement, please: 'However, the link between two correlated events which are known to be causally unrelated is not generally the subject of scientific investigation'? --Etaonsh 03:12, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

It means that, if we have events A and B which are known not to be related, then no matter what the statistical correlation is, a scientific investigation won't yield results, so there is no need to bother...for example, the graph I linked to in the above discussion, with lack of pirates causing global warming. It is known that even though there is a significant statistical correlation between the two concepts (decrease in number of pirates, increase in global temperature), the relationship is not a causal one, and I don't think any serious papers have been, or will be, published showing why the low number of pirates has nothing to do with environmental crises. Byrgenwulf 06:29, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

There is no such scenario I'm aware of. Altho pirates causing climate is as absurd as you say, it's not so absurd the other way. --Etaonsh 20:24, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

11:11

Why does 11:11 re-direct here?

I'm wondering the same thing...

11:11 used to have its own page and was explained by synchronisity but I guess someone decided to remove it. A great shame, I think it deserved its own space and it is not even mentioned here. KittensOnToast 13:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Me too. I actually came to the 'Synchronicity' page by entering '11:11' in search. Scanning the entry I couldn't find any reference at all to '11:11' and figured it must be, er, synchronicity that had steered me to this page. I'd be interested to see the original entry, and know why it was deleted.Brownm 18:38, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

If some unrelated word (in this case number) redirects to a page then there should be at least a short paragraph on it; I think the article was a victim of overediting.

Synchronicity in Jane Eyre?

For those who have read the classic Bronte novel of Jane Eyre, towards the end of the story where Jane hears Rochester's voice (and later finds out that he heard her voice as well) would that be an example of synchronicity and if so what would it be caused by? Their love for each other or something completly different (such as Jane now being equal to Rochester)? "The archetypes in the unconscious is what allows synchronicity" perhaps this was it, but if so which archetypes?

"Baader-Meinhof phenomenon"

I heard this term and was unable to find it on wikipedia because it redirected to this article but is never mentioned, meaning it's page rank is like zero. Someone needs to explain "Baader-Meinhof phenomenon" and why it redirects to this article so the term is associated with this page.

just happened to me today

I believe this is original research, but that was for real, maybe worth your look.

So, around 6pm in my university, I suddenly remembered one particular song (for no reason absolutely), that had words "..wish you are here". I recalled voice singing this words. I didn't know either title of this song, or author and I heard it very long ago. So, I thought, maybe i would get it via file-sharing software, but first I should find the full title. I came back home several hours later, and logged into irc-channel around 22pm (related to some online game), there I talked with some known to me person, in the process of discussing _he_ switched discussion to music. He mentioned "Blackmore's Night" (I never heard that name before) as a good one. Just for curiosity I searched in that file-sharing software on this words. First result was "Blackmore's Night - Wish You Were Here. I got it. It was exactly that song... It was very weird feeling to see exactly the same words and then hear them soon after my brain for some unexplained reason thought about it" DFighter100 03:04, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

cool.. none of this is really neccesary for the article but if anyone wants to read it, it might be interesting.. Ive had minor synchronicities, but one notable one stands out.. I was reading a book a year or two ago, "your immortal reality" by gary renard (incidentally it is one of those books that is all about sychronicity and psychological type of things) It mentioned how technology of the future/today mirrors science fiction of today/the past very soon after I was at a friends (who incidentally I would often think things just before she would say them) and I discussed this concept with her. pretty soon after we were watching star trek on TV, and they are using these cell-phone like communiction devices. this was pretty neat, but it's not important since the real synchronicity hadn't happened quite yet.. later, I think it was the same night, I went to eat dinner with my parents, my family somehow got on the subject of technology, I was going to mention the startrek-phone-future-technology thing, but for some reason I decided not to (I often think of saying things, but as an introvert I usually stay quiet) My dad starts talking about how isn't it interesting how technology resembles science fiction of the past blah blah.. This got me excited but I decided to stay quiet and let him talk and see if he'd take it farther.. he did, and he ended up using the cellphone and star trek as an example. I later asked him things, such as if he'd watched star trek that day, and he didn't. He also said when he was picturing the idea he sort of imagined a cave, as I described from the episode I watched. I was wondering if he got the same mental picture as me, though I can't really confirm that.

I think both of our examples could perhaps be explained by a link between minds in which we can sort of read other peoples minds on some level or to some degree? It honestly seems more plausable to me than coincidence. so many times I've felt like my thoughts aren't private, like my thoughts influence others. when I've taken psychedelics it seems so obvious, and I feel like I can move into the conciousness controlling or overseeing multiple individuals.

and while we're on the subject, I thought I'd throw in a quote from "the Disappearance of the Universe", the original book upon which the book I was reading in the story above was a sequel to..

"Synchronicity is just a symbol of the pseudo-oneness that always exists, even in the illusion." Everything Inane (talk) 01:42, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I was reading up on the famous American singer Gene Pitney to write a TOEFL practice test, while listening to his rendition of "Stop! In the Name of Love", when all of a sudden my CD player stopped in mid-song. I checked the Internet the next day and lo and behold: Gene had passed away after a successful gig in England. Now that's what I call Synchronicity... Frank Landsman (talk) 10:24, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Just happened to me on this page. I first heard of The Game-Players of Titan earlier today. Then I read this article, and right there in the "In popular culture" section... 211.26.76.84 (talk) 08:20, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

incoincident

The use of the word incoincident in the introduction does not make the article meaningful for the general reader who is the main user of an encyclopedia. Please introduce it further down the article. Lumos3 13:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Citation Issue

The preamble states that Synchronous events are those that happen with far greater frequency than allowed by greater chance. This does not seem to me (disclaimer--- I wrote it) to need a citation, since it is the definition of synchronicity. If the synchronous events were accounted for by random chance, then synchronicity would be the same as coincidence.

Now if somebody claims that there are events which actually _are_ synchronous, and not just coincident, then this would require a citation. But the definition does not imply that the phenomenon exists, it just defines it. Likebox 20:34, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I changed the phrasing so that it is clear and hopefully uncontroversial. Likebox 20:47, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Looking for guidance

Hello to the community -

I posted what I thought was a carefully worded addition to the Synchronicity article referencing the latest work on the philosophy of synchronicity as the underpinning of astrology in a recent book entitled Cosmos and Psyche by Richard Tarnas. This is an important work, and astrology is an interesting modern example of the uses of synchronicity.

Not sure if because of the reference to a particular (taboo?) subject - but my addition was removed without comment. I would have thought there would be a comment generated to my user id? No such luck. On the other hand, perhaps my addition was removed accidentally.

I'll give the addition again below - between existing parts of the Misplaced Pages article to show its intended position. Perhaps someone can help me formulate it in a way that would be more acceptable. The reference would point to the following URL (I am not related in any way to the author btw):

http://www.cosmosandpsyche.com/

One of Jung's favourite quotes on synchronicity was from Through the Looking-Glass by Lewis Carroll, in which the White Queen says to Alice: "It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards".

According to Richard Tarnas, one of the modern concrete ways that the principle of synchronicity crops up is as the philosophical underpinning of the subject matter of Astrology. Jung used astrology with his clients, in fact, and refers to a study of the astrology of marriage in his 1952 paper. For a good discussion of the philosophical trends in a post-modern setting that point to both astrology and synchronicity, see the reference to Cosmos and Psyche, below.

Events that happen which appear at first to be coincidence but are later found to be causally related are termed Incoincident .

HenrySeltzer 23:23, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

If you have the book, use this to generate the ref. Please also state what the author's credentials are, but the Barnes and Noble publisher is a really good sign. I'd take the website out completely, as it does look like an ad. I suggest changes below:

According to Richard Tarnas (credential), one of the modern concrete ways that the principle of synchronicity crops up is as the philosophical underpinning of the subject matter of Astrology. Jung used astrology with his clients, in fact, and refers to a study of the astrology of marriage in his 1952 paper. For a good discussion of the philosophical trends in a post-modern setting that point to both astrology and synchronicity, see the reference to Cosmos and Psyche, below.

Put it under the heading ==Synchronicity and Astrology==. I think this addition was hastily deleted. The whole article is in terrible shape... we really need an expert to work on it. ——Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 07:13, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

-- Thanks very much - I'll get on that HenrySeltzer 18:20, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

It has been 25 years since I read Jung's book on synchronicity, but there is a summary at the back of the book describing the acausal conncecting principal. While I can see that there are similarities in the 2 philosophies of Astrology & Synchronicity, I do not see that the primary source (Jung) was referring to astrology at the time that he described the principal.

However, I am willing to re-read any (few) pages of Jung's works you cite. Jok2000 20:56, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Jung doesn't have to have mentioned Astrology. It is enough that someone else connected synchronicity and astrology. ——Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 17:42, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, they aren't connected, its just a coincidence. Jok2000 17:46, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is about verifiability, not truth. See WP:V. ——Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 18:23, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I feel, in that case, that an addition about Astrology should also refer back to Jung's book in the summary where he tries to explain it as a connection between psychic and physis. Astrology refers to a different part of "physis". I would argue that adding astrology to synchronicity has similarities to adding creationism to "Big Bang". They have similarities, but no one seems to like to see them together and as such WP:V does not apply. I would first expand the acausal connecting principle described by Jung *before* tacking on other, possibly pet, theories about it. Jok2000 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 18:59, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, from a consistency point of view, the Astrology Misplaced Pages article offers up synchronicity as one of many possible mechanisms for Astrology. In that regard, the scientific literature on Astrology and Synchronicty is a bit different, most of the sceptical literature attributes Astrology to vagueness and the power of suggestion, while synchronicty is more closely related to one's natural tendency to make connections. I cite James Randi, The Skeptical Enquirer and Skepdic.com Jok2000 19:27, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

We aren't adding superstition to science. Synchronicity was just Jung's name for what he observed, or thought he observed. But it has never been science. We can't say that Astrology is less scientific than synchronicity. They are both non-scientific cultural items, and should be treated exclusively or almost exclusively as culture and history. We do need an expert on the whole subject, but at this stage of the article I don't think it's the time to eliminate well-sourced contributions which do deal with the subject.

As to referring back, we can't make a connection as editors which isn't made in the sources. But if the sources make the connection, then we could do as you say. ——Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 00:06, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, but I feel that the added link http://www.cosmosandpsyche.com/ is just an ad. I have gone to the site and read some selections and have not yet even found the word "synchronicity" in the text. If the section has to come back, the citation needs to be improved IMHO. Jok2000 01:16, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree that it is an ad and shouldn't be included, but the book, being published by a major house, seems legit. ——Martin _{(Talk Ψ Contribs)} 01:50, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Littlewood's Law

The idea that an individual should expect a synchronous event about once per month is not satisfactory as an explanation of synchronicity. It does not add anything except to present a scientific sounding pseudo-argument which dismisses the phenomenon of synchronicity entirely. I think it is important to understand that synchronicity is not supernatural in any way, so that people do not have such a knee jerk reaction. It is a phenomenon of coincident thinking, like birds and bats evolving wings that look alike.

The probability that a turn of phrase, a musical style, a design pattern, or a scientific idea will be developed independently in widely separated placed by random chance is nowhere near 1 in a million. The way I see it, in order to explain these phenomena, you need to accept that there are larger frameworks which produce these ideas, and that these larger frameworks are structured along the lines suggested by Jung. into collective consciousnesses. Whether you believe the last part or not, the synchronous events are normally at a level of improbability of at least 1 part in 10^{40} or so, estimating by using the probability of two people precisely repeating an exact english phrase of about 40 words at .5 bits per character, or by a loosly parallel construction with significant ovelap which has (to my intuition at least, its hard to quantitate) comparable improbability. These are the types of events which are identified as synchronous, not mundane coincidences at any reasonable level of probability.Likebox (talk) 08:22, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I see Littlewood's law as supporting the ideas Jung had about synchronicity. Even if synchonisity should happen more frequently as assumed by math than assumed by human observers doesn't mean it implies there is no such thing or that it wouldn't effect the universal unconscious. I don't think Jung needs it to prove his theory, he just saw it that way at the time. But you have a point, is a synchronistic event a "miracle"? If it isn't, witch i don't believe so because nothing really 'miraculous' happens, it jars consciousness with it's improbability and lack of causality, miracles are something of awe inspiring unexplainable and more importantly don't have temporal significance. Jesus healing the sick is a miracle, if Jesus and Joe from the other side of Jeruselem both healed the same disease at the same time , that's not a miracle , it's synchronicity. Calling that a miracle belittles miracles (except for the act of healing). Miracles are causal in a sense (It was a result of attempt such as an example of Jesus curing the sick, the cause is that he attempted it. Just because attempting to do the impossible yields results, doesn't mean it's not causal. Where as Jesus and Joe did not attempt to do the same thing at the same time so is acausal. ) The miracle of lights, that the oil lasted seven days during the Maccabean war is also casual. After all, the Hebrews did ATTEMPT to use the oil for seven days.) I believe you need a new Littlewood law for Synchronicity or you need to somehow prove synchronicity and miracles are the same thing.Sanitycult (talk) 08:10, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

By the same notion Attempting to flip a coin into a very small shot glass and succeeding is a miracle, attempting it and finding out that your friend also attempted it at the same time at a different bar, is synchronicity. It's statistically more likely to succeed at doing a near impossible thing than the presupposed statistic. (With good aim the coin tosser should get the coin in the glass more often mathematically than is supposed.) but this is not the same as the human supposition and the mathematical facts of synchronicity because no one ATTEMPTS to have those events happen to them. (What are the chances that two friends would go to different bars and attempt to win the same game at the same time?) They have no motive to and it is absolutely acausal. Ironically, if they did attempt it, their success would be very likely but because they didn't attempt it, it is even more unlikely than a miracle. I don't think Littlewoods law actually aplies. But should still be added to the article for people who think it does. I just think it needs modifiers.Sanitycult (talk) 08:18, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

What Conceptual Relation?

There doesn't appear to be any other than temporality and that poorly addressed. Relations are themselves specifically identified concepts, e.g. temporality, equality/inequality, causality, etc. Also the statement that (unqualified) cause and effect relations must be necessarily simultaneous is especially simple-minded and false. Lycurgus (talk) 13:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Wolfgang pauli and confirmation bias

It the section about scientific reasoning there's mention of pauli being critical of confirmation bias, I think it would be a great contribution to the article if we can find some of his written down sentiments on confirmation bias- that is if they are really there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.180.153.22 (talk) 16:41, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not exactly the same, though, is it? The confirmation is the synchronicity in this case. No one argues that acausal meaningful coincidence is "all in the head" or that you see it because you want to see it. It's much more empirical. For example, if I had a dream that my local grocery store was burned down, and then it did burn down, that would be confirmation bias if I thought it was a prophetic vision, if i burned the store down myself after the dream that would be a self-fulfilled prophecy, but If my neighbor had the same dream I had and we met at a street corner wearing the same necktie and with the same paperback book in our back pockets, its synchonicity. The store doesn't need to actually have burned down but having the same dream and the other coincidences are empirical, the facts are not in question, events like this DO actually happen, the only aspect of it that Wolfgang Pauli's idea's would apply is the interpretation of the events and their meaning. But unlike the prophetic vision, where the person WANTS the events to be related when they are coincidence, synchronicity is when events SEEM improbably related in a meaningful way WITHOUT anyone wanting it to be or planning it. Where's the bias?Sanitycult (talk) 21:59, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

For a Pauli specific answer--- Pauli did not write about confirmation bias specifically, since the concept of "confirmation bias" only got a name relatively recently. But confirmation bias itself is a disease that afflicts science, and any scientist sees it all the time. When you have a theory, you tend to accept data which agrees with the theory and reject data that disagrees.

There are two notable examples where Pauli was very critical of this type of confirmation bias, both in himself and in others. When he proposed the neutrino theory, he was very hesitant, although the theory is now known to be correct. The reason is that the cross section he predicted for neutrinos was so small, that they would be practically unobservable, so that his theory would be easy to confirm but hard to refute. He said that he had done the unpardonable--- constructed a theory which would be next to impossible to refute. This led him to delay publication of this important (and correct) idea. Similarly, when Pauli was working on Yang-Mills theory, he did not believe that the theory could be correct because it predicted massless particles, which are in conflict with experiment. After Yang published and presented the theory, Pauli criticized him for not explicitly saying that the particles in his theory are massless, and that the theory is therefore experimentally ruled out. By emphasizing the connection between symmetry and forces, and deemphasizing the massless part, Yang was, according to Pauli, being scientifically dishonest. Again, Pauli is criticizing confirmation bias.

Every decent theorist needs to be aware of confirmation bias and fight against it, so I am sure there are other examples.Likebox (talk) 15:20, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

re the passage. "Many critics believe that any evidence for synchronicity is due to confirmation bias, and nothing else," I would be very interested in seeing a reference. Beyond my own personal interest in researching this further, "many critics believe" seems just the sort of vague language to be avoided in credible encyclopedia entries. Clocke (talk) 19:40, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry--- I wrote that to replace the long description of confirmation bias which was there in an earlier version. By putting a long description of confirmation bias in this article, the implicit suggestion was that the evidence people give for synchronicity is a manifestation of confirmation bias, and nothing else. I rewrote the section to make the suggestion explicit, instead of implicit. I suppose that to source it, you would need to find a notable synchronicity skeptic. The source was the previous version of this article, and the anonymous critics are the previous editors.

Maybe it's true that some of the examples people give for synchronicity are pure coincidence pulled out of the noise by confirmation bias. The Dark Side of the Moon/ Wizard of Oz synchronicity might be an example of that, I don't know, I never tried it, but it seems implausible for an album to have a dramatic arc that matches a film to the second. Maybe its true for all the examples, once hidden causes are found. It's hard to quantitate meaningfulness, so it is difficult to say which synchronous events are really synchronous, and which other ones are connected by hidden causes, and which others are just illusions created by confirmation bias. Most examples of synchronicity seem to me to be too improbable to be confirmation bias.

Classic examples are simultaneous invention. For example, the Rubik's cube was invented by Erno Rubik in Hungary and Terutoshi Ishigi in Japan with a nearly identical mechanism at almost exactly the same time. If this isn't plagiarism, it's the most obvious example of synchronicity I have seen. There are other examples, especially in theoretical science. New ideas are often produced in widely separated places at nearly the same time. This is a manifestation of a collective mind--- everyone in the community is thinking along similar lines--- and collective mind is what Jung is trying to give evidence for.Likebox (talk) 21:38, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Here's a web site with a critical point of view: . For other examples of people expressing similar ideas, just google "synchronicity confirmation bias".128.59.168.240 (talk) 23:18, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

misrepresentation

The concept of Synchronicity of course was jumped upon by New Agers, astrologists, and all sorts of "paranormal" pseudoscience. This, however, doesn't make it a New Age or pseudoscientific concept, it just means that it has been parroted in New Age popculture.

What this is actually about has very little to do with the "paranormal", and is essentially about the philosophy of mind. It boils down to the observation that any "event" is a function of a mind. To give causality primacy in the description of events amounts to the claim that the mind is a machine for evaluating causality. That's true to some extent, of course, but what I believe Jung is trying to make out is that the mind is first and foremost a machine for evaluating meaning, not causality, and that events therefore should primarily be seen in terms of meaning, not causality. Meaning and causality overlap most of the time, of course, and "synchronicity" is about those rarer cases where they do not. It is a mistake to imply that synchronicity postulates some hidden or "paranormal" mechanism of causality, since it is essentially not about causality. dab (𒁳) 07:55, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

The New Age and spiritual adoption is unfortunate and applies almost to all of Jung's theories. The same can be said for Christians who try to confirm the "golden rule" as advanced reason by equating it with Immanual Kant's idea of the Moral Imperative. No matter how much Jung and Kant despised these associations, there is little anyone can do about it but repeat oneself. I think what you are talking about should be in the article but it's the kind of "controversy" that has an agenda on one side (That is, the New Age thinkers and shamans want to keep the association to give themselves a glimmer of reason, where as the Jungian Psychologists don't have an agenda at all concerning the matter except annoyance at misinterpretation.)Sanitycult (talk) 22:04, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Watered down synchronicity

The intro now waters down the concept to say that it is a relabeling of events according to meaning rather than according to causality. That's not sufficient. For example, I could let the computer run a random number generator to generate three letter combinations, and then group them by "causality" by making a list of the order in which they were spit out, or group them by "meaning" by extracting:

“cat" “dog“ ”pet“

This is not synchronicity, even if I run a thousand computers, and I notice that "cat" and "dog" come out at the same time on two different computers, or even, every once in a while, that three computers come up with "cat" "pet" and "dog", all at about the same time.

The point of synchronicity is that the events that are grouped together by meaning are extraordinary unlikely to occur together. If I have a dream that half the sun is green and that it then splits in two, and I find out that somebody else had a similar dream the same week, and nobody else ever had that dream before, it is nothing like the example with the computers spitting out random three letter words. It is extraordinary unlikely to happen, because it is a long sequence of events, each full of meaning, which were put together in a similar way without causal influence. The only way such a thing can be explained causally (I think it happens all the time) is if the world of dream-generation has large collective influences which are unseen, and are act in myself and the other person to generate the dream. These are the collective consciousnesses that Jung is postulating.Likebox (talk) 15:30, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

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