Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 22:43, 15 November 2008

Alternative medicine Start‑class

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative medicine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Alternative medicine related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Alternative medicineWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative medicineTemplate:WikiProject Alternative medicineAlternative medicine Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

This topic contains controversial issues, some of which have reached a consensus for approach and neutrality, and some of which may be disputed. Before making any potentially controversial changes to the article, please carefully read the discussion-page dialogue to see if the issue has been raised before, and ensure that your edit meets all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Please also ensure you use an accurate and concise edit summary.

Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Misplaced Pages:How to archive a talk page.

Archives

Index 01 (Pre - Feb 2005): 02 (Nov 28 2005 - Nov 30 2005) 03 (Nov 30 2005 - Feb 10 2006) 04 (Feb 10 2006 - May 28 2006) 05 (May 28 2006 - Jun 25 2006) 06 (Jun 25 2006 - Jul 19 2006) 07 (Jul 19 2006 - Oct 31 2006) 08 (Nov 01 2006 - Nov 25 2006) 09 (Nov 25 2006 - Dec 21 2006) 10 (Dec 21 2006 - Jan 11 2007) 11 (Jan 11 2007 - Feb 28 2007) 12 (Feb 28 2007 - Apr 16 2007) 13 (Apr 16 2007 - Oct 01 2007) 14 (Oct 01 2007 - Dec 31 2007) 15 (Dec 31 2007 - Feb 9 2008) 16 (Feb 9 2008 - June 14 2008) 17 (June 14 2008 - Oct 2 2008)

Suggestions for improving the article

Hi ive been reading through the wikipage on transcendental meditation and would like to help improve it.

I have a few questions.

I have heard from a retired Colonel in the US army that veterans that are prescribed by a Doctor to learn tm for any medical reason, have all the expenses of learning covered by the US Gov. I think this would be useful info to have on this page if true.

What happened to all the links at the bottom of the page...there seems to be a number of pages that used to be there? One was I think askthedoctors.com . I was recommending my friends who were interested in learning TM to come here and find out more about it. Now i find at the bottom there are virtually only sites linked that have bad things to say about TM?

What is the relevancy of the two paragraphs in the Lawsuit section to people interested in learning more about TM when they come to Misplaced Pages? Is it useful information? The first claim dealign with Robert Kropinski Lawsuit against the World Plan Executive Council was a null outcome. I'm not sure why it would be included since it doesn't really say anything other than a guy tried to take the TM organisation to court but lost...it doesn't seem to me to be very relavant.

The 2nd case dealing with the murder of the student at Maharishi university of Managament seems to have more to do with that University than the technique...I'm not sure why it would be on the page dealing with TM...wouldn't it make more sense to be on the university page? Also what is even the signifigance of this anyway in regards to either the University or TM?

I don't know what the protocol of adding links to the bottom of the page is but I belong to the SIMS Club at Auckland University in New Zealand and would I be able to put a link to our webpage at the bottom of this article?

Some things I would like to see added to the TM Page would be TM in Governments. I know in New Zealand that at one time 10% our governing MP's practiced TM along with the speaker of the house and the deputy Prime minister.

It just seems to me that in NZ where you have 45,000 people who have learnt the TM technique...with many of the most wealthy learning, many many doctors and at sometime so many members of Parliment practicing how in the interest of balance so much "controversial" material is present on the wiki TM page? I'm not disputing its reality...I'm just disputing what its real signifigance is...what it really contributes towards giving people an understanding of what TM is...

Sorry if i seem to be jumping all over the place. --Uncreated (talk) 21:58, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, Uncreated. I was just made aware as well that many links had been removed so I'll be looking at those in the next few days to see what, at least from my side, I think should be restored. As for your other questions, I think they are legitimate. The concern with this article is that it has been the site of edit wars and heated discussion and so is highly contentious. Misplaced Pages has pretty specific policies and guidelines for articles and the article has been scrutinized multiple times to make sure these are being met. That said I would think the best idea for you would be to take your concerns one at a time and post them here for discussion. Then some agreement could be reached about inclusion or exclusion of the material. You might want to check out WP:Weight if you are a new editor, since many of the issues you bring up may have to do with the "weight" of material being presented in relation to the article as a whole. At any rate, these are good points well worth discussing.(olive (talk) 22:16, 11 October 2008 (UTC))

Okay.

Let’s start with this one. Kropinski v. WPEC. As far as I can see this paragraph basically says a man had a disagreement with the WPEC and it was settled out of court. If I’m over simplifying the implication of it let me know...but if I’m not is this information very relevant to people who want to know more about TM. I can't see that it is...and from what I have read from going through the archives space seems to be a concern and perhaps we could add a bit more info as to what tm is as opposed to essentially meaningless info.--Uncreated (talk) 09:30, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I think you've raised some god points. I've had the same thoughts about the Kropinski suit. One advantage to having it here, though, is that there are a number or web sites that report that he sued and was awarded damages of $138,000. These web sites typically don't inform the reader that an appellate court overturned the award. So having it here is a chance to set the record straight. But the problem is that a suit that Kropinski lost money on and that had most of the claims dismissed is highlighted by having a major section on lawsuits. Most readers won't read the details -- they'll just see the heading and jump to a conclusion. I wish we could, at the least, revise this so that it's more in accord with the spirit of this essay: WP:CRITICISM, and figure out a way to integrate this better into the article rather than highlight a suit with a null outcome, thereby giving it undue weight.

By the way, not only did the appellate court dismiss most of the remaining claims, but they also threw out the testimony of Margaret Singer, without which there was no basis for the fraud claim. The sole remaining claim was a knee injury related to practice of the TM-Sidhi program (which is a separate technique from Transcendental Meditation, as you know). TimidGuy (talk) 16:12, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay in responding, I've been bedridden with the flu for the last few days.

I've had a look at the WP:CRITICISM and undue weight links you gave me. Perhaps we could remove the Controversies section and replace it with a Reception section as suggested in the Criticism essay? I think this would provided a way to included both Postive and negative criticisms of the TM Technique. Perhaps in this proposed section mention of the fact that there are websites and groups that have a disfavourable opinion of the TM Technique and continually site facts that are wrong or misleading and give an example of the Kropinski suit?

In the proposed reception section maybe we could have different subheadings and look at how different aspects of society have recieved the TM technique...maybe Government, Education, Science, Religion, Medicine, Physcology, Military, etc --Uncreated (talk) 20:19, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Also are the links provided at the bottom of the page expected to meet the same standards set out in the reliable sources wiki policy? I suspect if they are then a few of the links violate that policy and should be removed. --Uncreated (talk) 20:22, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

It does seem like a good idea to adjust this so that some things aren't given undue weight by their very appearance in a section labeled controversies. The only source, for example, for saying that there is a controversy about the issue of cost is a commercial web site that claims to offer the same thing at a lower price. That's hardly evidence for a controversy, and certainly not a reliable source for the claim. Regarding your suggestion about mentioning unfavorable sites and giving an example of the Kropinski suit, that would likely be in violation of Misplaced Pages's policy of no original research. It would be our own observation. We can only report things that published, reliable sources have said. And speaking of sources, do you have third-party sources for information about how the technique has been received? Also, we have to try hard avoid having the article sound promotional. Some think that it already sounds promotional. Regarding the links at the bottom, the relevant guideline is WP:EL. Thanks much for your suggestions. TimidGuy (talk) 16:16, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

TG I understand about the no original research and yes you are right. In regards to third party sources talking about TM and its reception could we not use the many different articles that have appeared in the US news media about TM in Education, Business and the medical industry? I believe all the information is out there it’s just a matter of getting our hands on it...for example in Cambodia there is a university that practices Consciousness based education jointly run by the TM organisation and the Cambodian government...now I'm sure there are a number of official documents talking about its "reception" but they would all mostly be in Khmer...likewise the peace project that was conducted in Mozambique in the 90's I'm sure had alot of coverage in the media in Mozambique about it but I’m not sure how accessible it would be to us.

Perhaps we could continue to have a Controversies section but also have a reception section? In the reception section you could have how TM has been received by Religion, Education, Business, Medicine, and the Military. Also the cult issues could also be included in this section but instead under the umbrella of how TM has been received in the field of psychology? Under the controversies we could have the lawsuits and any other information that was controversial.

In regards to the price that section could be moved to nearer the top of the page where it discusses the teaching procedure? --Uncreated (talk) 03:40, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the discussion, and hope you've recovered from the flu. It's hard to generalize about how it's been received. We could be accused of cherry picking if we find a few articles and then present that info in this article, especially since the topic is so vast: many many countries, and many different facets of society. It seems like we'd need to find a source that gives some kind of overview and then report that. How about if we at least take a couple initial steps? 1) change the Controversies heading to Reception and 2) move cost out of that section. If we get consensus on that, then let's discuss further the context of the lawsuits. TimidGuy (talk) 15:15, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be fine to rename the controversies section. I don't mind moving cost either. However, would it be alright to hold off on that. A few months ago someone posted a point saying there was nothing about how the technique worked, and I also had an email from an editor who seemed to indicate the article was less than interesting without info on the technique itself so I am in the process of writing something. When that's done I could integrate the cost information in that general section. I'm fine with moving it now as well. And happy you seem to be over the flu, Uncreated.(olive (talk) 16:16, 16 October 2008 (UTC))

Thanks guys...I'm quite a bit better now...I don't remember the last time I was so violently ill though. Thats good olive...the article does seem to have a distinct lack of info on how it works. TG that sounds like a good plan. Do we have to wait for more editors to put in their 2 cents before we could change Controversies to Reception? --Uncreated (talk) 20:22, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

External links

Multiple external links were removed without discussion. As noted by User:Uncreated this left the section heavy with negative material . Although some of these links could possibly be deleted, discussion should be carried out first to make sure there is agreement on their removal.(olive (talk) 21:05, 15 October 2008 (UTC))

I read through the the wiki guideline regarding links TG provided. I read through two of the links "behind the TM facade" and "falling down the rabbit hole" and in my mind both seem inappropraite in light of the wiki guideline of links normally to be avoided point 2:

Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research. See Reliable sources for explanations of the terms "factually inaccurate material" or "unverifiable research".

I would argue at best alot of the information in these sites are unverifiable and therefore misleading. They also appear to be self published sites. --Uncreated (talk) 02:55, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

A number of other links could also in my be removed I think like the "Hararit" Village in Israel founded by TM meditator and "Maharishi Vedic City" City in Iowa, USA founded by TM meditators. --Uncreated (talk) 03:03, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I would tend to agree with you. The Down the TM Rabbit Hole site is self published. The site has been linked because the site is that of a former TM teacher. I would say though looking at it again that it is even more about opinion than it was before. I would also be happy to remove the Hararit village link and Vedic City link, but I'd like other editors to weigh in. I would also need to look more closely at the other links again and really carefully discuss them. Thanks for your research and efforts.(olive (talk) 04:03, 16 October 2008 (UTC))

Is that information verifiable that he is a TM teacher? If it is i believe i read on one of the wiki guidline pages that fringe or minority views should not be given much if any weight. I have read in TM literature that there is something like 30,000 - 40,000 TM teachers in the world...I would argue that if he was verified by a 3rd party source as being a teacher, then his "expert" opinion and views as a TM teacher would be in the most extreme minority. --Uncreated (talk) 04:23, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd be fine with removing the intentional communities links. That material had originally been inserted in the article, but I didn't think it belonged. Eventually we had consensus to move to External Links. But I"m not sure it's relevant. The thing that bothers me about sites such as Behind the TM Facade is that they seem to be intentionally misleading. This site, for example, offers up the same old canon of bogus claims, such as: saying that Kropinski was awarded $138,000 in his lawsuit and failing to tell the reader that an appellate court overturned the award; and presenting the German "study" without telling that a court found it was bogus, and misrepresenting the decision of the higher court (which said that the lower court didn't have the authority to force the German ministry to retract the report but didn't dispute that the ministry's research was bogus and that explicitly said: "The federal government has not asserted a general or in any event significant, frequent and determinable causal relationship between membership in the Transcendental Meditation movement and the appearance of mental disorders”). In my opinion, these sorts of canonical criticisms are a litmus test for any web site about Transcendental Meditation. If they're present, and not qualified in an even-handed way but are simply there to mislead the reader, then that site shouldn't be included. TimidGuy (talk) 15:35, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I tagged the section for cleanup back in February. I think it would be best to follow WP:EL very closely, moving anything questionable to here for discussion. A well referenced article of this quality, doesn't need many external links, but attracts many that are promotional. --Ronz (talk) 16:30, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree the inks should be discussed. I guess we're in the middle of that.:o) Actually I'm not sure we need to actually move them. Its pretty simple to reference them. Once they've been discussed and an agreement reached they can either be deleted or left How about if I start a section for each discussion in each link.(olive (talk) 16:43, 16 October 2008 (UTC))

Discussion of External Links

Here's the current list without the links for reference: --Ronz (talk) 16:47, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• American Association of Professionals Practicing the Transcendental Meditation Program.

Promotional. --Ronz (talk) 15:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not attached to this, but this is a nonprofit organization, so I would probably consider it borderline promotional, and possibly OK as link(olive (talk) 16:14, 17 October 2008 (UTC))

I mean promotional in the sense of WP:ELNO #4, 5, 13, 14. --Ronz (talk) 19:31, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Yikes sorry ... no idea what ENLO is and wouldnt link .... could you point me in the right direction. Many thanks.(olive (talk) 20:54, 19 October 2008 (UTC))

• Behind the TM Facade - Criticizes claims made by the TM organization.

I'm unable to find the identity of the authors here, so it's probably inappropriate. Maybe ] could be used as a replacement if there isn't enough with a skeptical pov? --Ronz (talk) 18:23, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• Discover the benefits - Link to official TM site, includes some scientific study summaries.

So we agree this is the official site? If so, it should be first. --Ronz (talk) 18:41, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• Falling Down the TM Rabbit Hole - How TM Really Works, a Critical Opinion - Criticism of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and TM by a former TM teacher.

Doesnt appear to be written by a notable expert. --Ronz (talk) 18:29, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• "Hararit" Village in Israel founded by TM meditators.

Looks promotional. --Ronz (talk) 16:49, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• "Maharishi Vedic City" City in Iowa, USA founded by TM meditators.

Looks promotional. --Ronz (talk) 16:49, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• Meditation Information Network - Web site supporting critical examination of Transcendental Meditation and associated programs. Includes archived newsletters of TM-EX, the Transcendental Meditation Ex-Members Support Group (1990 - 1994).

I tend to removing links of aggregations of articles like this, but won't object to it's inclusion if no one else does. --Ronz (talk) 19:14, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• Transcendental Meditation -- Links to Steven Hassan's "Freedom of Mind Center".

I've linked Hassan's name in the article to Steven Hassan. Is there any reason to keep this link to his center? --Ronz (talk) 20:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I should have looked at the content closer. I assumed it was to his center. Instead, it's his main TM entry, linking to his and others' articles. I don't see a reason to remove it. --Ronz (talk) 23:18, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• Research on the Transcendental Meditation Technique.

Another aggregation. I think it should be treated the same as the Meditation Information Network link above. --Ronz (talk) 20:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• Stress-Free Schools.

Looks promotional. --Ronz (talk) 16:49, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• The Transcendental Meditation technique and ADHD.

I've updated this to indicate it's from PBS. I think the date should be included, but couldn't find it. I didn't watch the video other than to quickly look for production info. It looks like the information may have been removed, which means it may have to be removed for copyright reasons. --Ronz (talk) 19:14, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I've removed this one as a link to what looks like copyrighted material used with the copyright information removed from it and no other indication that the site is licensed to use the material, per WP:ELNEVER. --Ronz (talk) 21:10, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• "Transcendental Meditation and Transcendental Consciousness".

Looks promotional. --Ronz (talk) 16:49, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• Truth About TM - A leading researcher on Transcendental Meditation responds to issues.

I don't think David Orme-Johnson is expert enough to have his site included as a link. --Ronz (talk) 19:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

He's published over 100 studies on Transcendental Meditation, most of them peer reviewed and in major academic journals. I hope we can include this one. I agree all your other suggestions (and thanks for focusing on this): replace Facade with Skeptic's Dictionary, put official site tm.org first, delete Rabbit Hole/Hararit/Maharishi Vedic City, delete the two aggregation sites minet and TM research, delete link to Hassan/Stress Free Schools/TM & Transcendental Consciousness. TimidGuy (talk) 19:40, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I concur with TG assement.--Uncreated (talk) 20:10, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Want to thank Ronz as well for taking this on. I am keeping track of the points on agreement and disagreement just because the article has been contentious and this keep things very clear.(olive (talk) 21:32, 16 October 2008 (UTC))

Could we add this link http://www.doctorsontm.com I think it has useful information about TM that people would be interested in. Where are we up to in regards to making the changes to the links? are we getting close to making the changes? Its been 3 or 4 days since we started discussing...is that enough time for other editors to come forward and offer or not offer concensus if they so desire?--Uncreated (talk) 23:55, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I thought this was the same the link in place (American association of Professionals ....) but is different and seems educational rather than promotional.(olive (talk) 01:56, 20 October 2008 (UTC))

Uncreated -- I believe we have consensus on many of these. I think someone could go ahead and make some changes. TimidGuy (talk) 11:32, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Ronz. I still think we could trim more off of it though.

Official site.

American Association of Professionals Practicing the Transcendental Meditation Program. (Should be removed)

Meditation Information Network - Web site supporting critical examination of Transcendental Meditation and associated programs. Includes archived newsletters of TM-EX, the Transcendental Meditation Ex-Members Support Group (1990 - 1994). (Should be removed) (it simply takes you to a page with more links...if there is useful information there we should link directly to it).

Transcendental Meditation -- Links to Steven Hassan's "Freedom of Mind Center". (Should be removed) (This site is promoting a business)

Research on the Transcendental Meditation Technique. (Should be removed)

Truth About TM - A leading researcher on Transcendental Meditation responds to issues.

http://skepdic.com/tm.html (add) ( To give balance)

http://www.doctorsontm.com (add) ( I think this is a very good site, this is who they are http://www.doctorsontm.com/about)

--Uncreated (talk) 17:50, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I just cleaned up those I thought we had clear consensus on, with no need for further discussion. The rest could probably deserve additional discussion. --Ronz (talk) 19:45, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay...It seems to me that the information meditation newtwork simply takes you to a site that has alot of links taking you to other sites...if there is a site thereor some information there that is useful to educating people about TM why not link directly. Otherwise i don't see the use for this link.

Steven Hassan's website is promoting his business and as I understand not acceptable under Wiki policy. If we are looking for expert medical/psychological opinion (since as far as i can see Cult expert is another name for a psychologist with an expertise in human conditioning) on TM lets use www.doctorsontm.com this website is the website for the The American Association of Physicians Practicing the Transcendental Meditation Program.

I thought your reasoning to use www.skepdic.com was sound and we should have that in the links.

The research on TM page in my mind is alright and serves as a function to give people more Scientific info on TM but maybe something better could be found.

--Uncreated (talk) 20:48, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Condensing comments per link

I have gathered up the comments here so we can easily see where agreements have been reached. Comments can be added under the link section. In my attempts to summarize the discussion so far, if I have mischaracterized anyone's comments, I apologize in advance and please remove or add you name. Updated.(olive (talk) 21:25, 16 October 2008 (UTC))

Intentional Communities

Agreement to delete from Uncreated, TG, Ronze, Olive that these are non-compliant either as promotional, or are not pertinent to this article

I've removed these. --Ronz (talk) 17:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Stress free Schools

Agreement to delete from Ronz, Olive,TG Promotional

Removed. --Ronz (talk) 17:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Down the TM Rabbit Hole, Behind the TM Facade

Agreement to delete as non compliant: self published, non reliable, verifiable claims per comments by Uncreated, TG, Olive, Ronz

Removed. --Ronz (talk) 17:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

TM and Transcendental Consciousness

Agreement to delete, Ronz, Uncreated, TG, Olive

Removed. --Ronz (talk) 17:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Aggregate sites

Agreement to delete from Ronz,TG, Uncreated, Olive

I kept these for now. --Ronz (talk) 17:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Steve Hassan

Linked in article :agreement to delete from Olive, TG, Uncreated, and Ronz(?)

I see no reason to delete it, especially when I looked closer. Serves me right for multi-tasking ;^) --Ronz (talk) 23:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Isn't steve hassan's site promotional in nature? Just looking at his wikipage it says: "In 1999, Hassan founded the Freedom of Mind Resource Center. It is registered as a domestic profit corporation in the state of Massachusetts. He is president and treasurer." Isn't there some wiki policey for not promoting business's?--Uncreated (talk) 00:13, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Hassan is a self promoting "cult" expert whose livelihood depends on the criticism of groups he considers to be "cult". His site is a commercial site promoting the sales of his services and as such is link spam I would think, and should be removed. He is linked in the article and that would seem to be borderline fine, but linking to his site given its promotional quality would be non compliant.(olive (talk) 00:54, 17 October 2008 (UTC))

... and you've done a good job... much appreciated.(olive (talk) 00:56, 17 October 2008 (UTC))

I kept this for now. --Ronz (talk) 17:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Not sure why we should keep this given its so obviously a commercial site, and since there seems to be a consensus.

Official site

Place first. Agreement Ronz, Uncreated, TG, Olive

I think it should be changed to tm.org though if it's listed as the official site. --Ronz (talk) 23:05, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I've placed it at the top and trimmed it to tm.org. --Ronz (talk) 17:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

OJ site

Keep... agreement: TG, Olive, Uncreated

Kept for now. --Ronz (talk) 17:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Skeptic's Dictionary

Add... agreement Ronz, TG, Uncreated

do not agree to add-Olive... Not a good source in my estimation. Too much opinion, and is not mean to be a reliable verifiable, source necessarily according to the author/editor.(olive (talk) 21:28, 16 October 2008 (UTC))

Skepdic and Robert Todd Carroll are both notable, and Carroll's articles are often used as references within Misplaced Pages when a skeptic's viewpoint is warranted. His TM article isn't as detailed as I'd hoped, but I think the source itself wouldn't be controversial. --Ronz (talk) 22:50, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry everyone, I can't agree to support including Skepdic on principle for the following reasons:

• Carroll is not an expert and is not notable on the topic of TM nor is he an expert on many other topics he includes in Skepdic.
• On other Misplaced Pages articles use of Skepdic is also contentious.
• Carroll includes a disclaimer on Skepdic so the material must always be considered less than reliable.
• Technically a dictionary is a tertiary source.

However, there is a consensus on inclusion so of course inclusion is possible under that circumstance.(olive (talk) 17:02, 17 October 2008 (UTC))

If we think we need an external link to prevent a skeptical viewpoint, then this is a good one to consider. His articles are acceptable only in this context. Otherwise, your points are valid.

Once we're close to being done here, we need to look at the list of external links as a whole to make sure we're not giving undue weight to particular points of view. It's in this context that Carroll's article will fit or not. --Ronz (talk) 17:11, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed.(olive (talk) 23:44, 17 October 2008 (UTC))

Compression

What we have left to deal with and further comments:(olive (talk) 19:07, 21 October 2008 (UTC))

• What about switching the Professionals Practicing TM link a more promotional site to Doctors on TM site, a knowledge based site.

• the Hassan link

• Aggregate site: WP:EL seems pretty clear on this topic

• We need to watch "weight" here as well. Right now the links are weighted 1 negative to 3 positive, and one of those negative links is an aggregate site which heavily skews our "weight". I doubt that the negative to positive ration in sources and references on TM is weighted that way . It seems more to be in the 1 to 8 or 10 ratio at a rough guess. Definitley something we need to consider, I would think. However, removing Hassan and the aggregate site will also skew weight, so maybe I'll see if I can find better references to link, with a neutral view of both sides of the issues

• Other

I concur Olive Misplaced Pages is fairly clear on the no use of Hassan's Website and the Aggregate website. Replacing the Professional link with the doctor link is good. I agree with the undue weight towards links that are "negative" towards TM. But at this time I think we should still add the Skepdics link even though the skepdic article reads like a sensationalist peice from a womans magazine(not that i would know what one of those would read like :-)) Perhaps in the future something more appropriate will be found to replace the skepdics link that is more authoritative.--Uncreated (talk) 02:38, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

After looking at them all carefully, I think the best solution may be to have just the one link to the official site. --Ronz (talk) 19:36, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd be fine with that. Misplaced Pages notes external links should be kept to a minimum.(olive (talk) 19:47, 22 October 2008 (UTC))

In doing some cleanup of the Further reading section, I found two entries that should have been in the External links section. I removed the David Lynch Foundation link as off topic. I kept the theheart.org article, however I'm not sure it's worth keeping as the original study is already being used as a reference. --Ronz (talk) 19:57, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I'll go along with that.--Uncreated (talk) 20:50, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Ronz. Good idea. And yes, no need to have a Further Reading link to a study already included in this article. TimidGuy (talk) 12:07, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

There seems to be concensus on this...perhaps the changes could be made. I'll just do it myself and if my assesment is wrong we can easily enough revert.--Uncreated (talk) 17:31, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Controversies to Reception

Hi Olive, how is the draft you are working on coming that you mentioned? As dicussed I would like to create a Reception section and move some of the material from the Controversies section to the reception section.--Uncreated (talk) 21:54, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I would like to move the Relationship to religion and spirituality and the Cult issues section to a Reception section. Perhaps to bring balance to the cult issues...I have heard in her book Shirley Harrison "Cults " the Battle for God" gives a contrary perspective to Steve Hassan and Michael A. Persingers. IE among religous and Spiritual leaders TM has been recieved differently and also among "cult experts" TM has been recieved differently.

Also I have come across this link...would it come under the catagory of a reliable source?

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2001/11/16706.html?c=on --Uncreated (talk) 22:10, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Looking more closely at the link it seems its a reproduction of an article that was printed in the Bermuda Sun...however the link at the bottom of the page does not seem to work.--Uncreated (talk) 22:28, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Uncreated, for initiating the discussion of External LInks, and for taking the initiative here. I'd go along with changing "Controversies" to "Reception" and putting the cult and religion sections under that heading. I've seen a number of articles successfully adopt the conventions suggested by the essay WP:CRITICISM and would like to try that here. Thanks for alerting me to the book by Harrison. I'll order it immediately. I have some doubts about the link as a source. TimidGuy (talk) 11:51, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Agree with TG. I can go along with the new heading. I should have something ready by Friday on the technique. I'll post it here. The source looks like a sophisticated blog forum which we probably can't use for that reason. Thanks.(olive (talk) 14:46, 29 October 2008 (UTC))

Exellent. Maybe I'll wait to make any changes until we have something quotable from Shirley Harrison's book TG if its coming soon and if thats alright with you? Will you get access to it very soon? I have been looking for information on the internent from a reliable source in regards to British Home Office policy of TM not being a religion or Cult...but at this time I have not been able to find anything...

Olive, will your new description make redundent the "issue of cost" section?--Uncreated (talk) 18:34, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I think we could go ahead without waiting on the book. We may want to be cautious about adding to the cult section. It's just not been that big an issue. If you do a search engine test on Google News archives, only a very small fraction (on the order of three percent) of the media coverage even mentions the word "cult." So we'll want to keep that section relatively short. The book will probably be here within a week. TimidGuy (talk) 21:14, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay will make the change. I agree the cult issue is a bit of a non issue I think...but what is there I think is unbalanced. Perhaps instead of extending the section we simply rewrite it to include some other perspectives? Either way lets wait until you have the book...I hope you didn't buy it but could simply get it through a library? --Uncreated (talk) 23:13, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Is this an acceptable site to use? http://newer.globalgoodnews.info/world-peace-a.html?art=120085090111968907

I would say depending on what its used for, probably not, because its a TM organization publication. Thus the reports may be seen as being biased or non-neutral, and as well is not a "notable" publication with a large circulation to a general audience.(olive (talk) 04:02, 30 October 2008 (UTC))

Yep, bought the book, and am open to rewriting that section. It'll be interesting to see what this book says. TimidGuy (talk) 10:47, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

If it isn't at what point does a self published site become a newpaper?--Uncreated (talk) 03:28, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I guess though if thats the case then under the "Relationship to religion and spirituality" section we could say something like "Thousands of Buddist monks around the world have learnt the technique and the TM organisation claims they enjoy it" and site this article? I'm not really the person to be writing since I am not the best writer but I think it would be good if something like that could be added. I also have a friend who has instructed a few thousand people (most of them Muslim) in the TM Technique in Iran over the last 10 years but I'm not sure how we could site something like that since it has not appeared in any newspapers or verifable sources to my knowledge. Its relevent though because my understanding is that in Iran it is illegal to convert someone to another faith if they are muslim or interfere with their Muslim faith in anyway. The implication being the Iranian government which has its basis in Islam Law does not percieve TM to be Religious in anyway.--Uncreated (talk) 04:41, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I think a sell-published site can never be as reliable as a newspaper from Misplaced Pages's point of view. And even newspapers aren't always considered reliable sources, depending on the quality of the publication and reputation. Regarding the monks, I think this is an example of a claim that can't be used unless it's independently verified in a reliable source. Interesting about Iran. But you're right, we would have to have a source. Seems like the main idea in this section is just that we give a couple representative viewpoints -- some who say it conflicts with religion and others who say it doesn't. TimidGuy (talk) 11:39, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Apologies. I am going to have to take a bit longer on the technique section I'm working on than I had hoped. Sick yesterday and somewhat better today but still a little under the weather.(olive (talk) 20:25, 31 October 2008 (UTC))

--Uncreated (talk) 19:46, 8 November 2008 (UTC)== Research Study Conducted in Iran ==

This was a study looking at Mental Health in Iran...perhaps it could be used somehow in the article?

http://www.cpementalhealth.com/content/pdf/1745-0179-4-25.pdf --Uncreated (talk) 21:25, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

We do need to do something to achieve NPOV in relationship to the Otis questionnaire. That non-peer-reviewed publication suggests that Transcendental Meditation can have negative psychological effects, so it would be good to also include some of the peer-reviewed research showing positive psychological effects. I'm not sure that we'd include this one done in Iran. Unlike some of the stronger studies, it doesn't use a control group. Also, it's not clear that the practice described in the study is Transcendental Meditation as taught by Maharishi. It describes each period of meditation as beginning and ending with one minute of concentration.

I received the Harrison book on cults. I don't see any material there that can be used one way or the other. She simply reports, quite accurately, facts about Transcendental Meditation and the organization that teaches it, but doesn't draw any conclusions. She mentions the scientific research, the nature and origin of the technique, etc.

I really appreciate the attention that you're giving to improving this article. I wish I had more time to focus on it. I think that a good psychological study to include would be the one by Gelderloos One problem with that study, though, is that the subjects in the treatment group practiced both Transcendental Meditation and the TM-Sidhi program, so it may not be relevant to this article. TimidGuy (talk) 16:13, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

In regards to the Iran Study my understanding is that it is the TM program taught by Maharishi. I think probably the authors of the study did not fully understand the technique and hence probably described it wrongly.

Why not use the the iran study until something better is found or published? It can't be any worse than using the otis survey which to me looks very weak. Is the strength of the Otis survey strong enough to allow for its inclusion in the article on TM anyway?

Upon further thinking it seems to me that there is a dearth of decent and appropriate research conducted on TM in regards to mental health and maybe we should have no inclusion until something is published that would warrent inclusion.

If we are not to use the iran study due to its weakness we shouldn't be using the otis study either for the same reason.--Uncreated (talk) 19:20, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree that Otis probably isn't strong enough, but it's intended to be representative of several similarly problematic studies. There are dozens of studies showing positive effects on mental health, including randomized controlled trials. I just haven't had the time to look at the studies. Here are some examples:

• Tjoa A. Increased intelligence and reduced neuroticism through the Transcendental Meditation program. Gedrag: Tijdschrift voor Psychologie (Behaviour: Journal of Psychology), 1975, 3: 167-182
• Dillbeck M. The effect of the Transcendental Meditation technique on anxiety level. Journal of Clinical Psychology, 1977, 33: 1076-1078
• Seeman W, Nidich S, Banta T. Influence of Transcendental Meditation on a measure of self-actualization. Journal of Counseling Psychology, 1972, 19: 184-187
• Ferguson PC, Gowan JC. Psychological findings on Transcendental Meditation. Journal of Humanistic Psychology, 1976, 16(3): 51-60
• Alexander CN, Gelderloos P, Rainforth MV. Transcendental Meditation, self-actualization, and psychological health: a conceptual overview and statistical meta-analysis. Journal of Social Behavior and Personality, 1991, 6 (5): 189-247
• Eppley K, Abrams A, Shear J. Differential effects of relaxation techniques on trait anxiety: a meta-analysis. Journal of Clinical Psychology, 1989, 45: 957-74
• Haratani T, Henmi T. Effects of Transcendental Meditation on mental health of industrial workers. Japanese Journal of Industrial Health, 1990, 32: 656
• Alexander CN, Swanson GC, Rainforth MV, Carlisle TW, Todd CC, Oates RM Jr. Effects of the Transcendental Meditation program on stress-reduction, health, and employee development in two occupational settings. Anxiety, Stress and Coping, 1993, 6: 245-262
• Brooks JS, Scarano T. Transcendental Meditation in the treatment of post-Vietnam adjustment. Journal of Counselling and Development, 1986, 64: 212-215
• Taub E, Steiner SS, Weingarten E, Walton KG. Effectiveness of broad spectrum approaches to relapse prevention in severe alcoholism: a long-term, randomised, controlled trial of Transcendental Meditation, EMG biofeedback and electronic neurotherapy. Alcoholism Treatment Quarterly, 1994, 11: 1-2, 187-220
• Ljunngren G. The influence of Transcendental Meditation on neuroticism, use of drugs and insomnia. Lakartidningen, 1977, 74: 4212-4214

Fine with me if you want to put in the Iran study until someone has time to survey the research and identify the strongest studies. TimidGuy (talk) 16:19, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Exellent response TG...I have some familiarity with two of those studies which would be exellent additions to the article on TM in my opinion.

• Eppley K, Abrams A, Shear J. Differential effects of relaxation techniques on trait anxiety: a meta-analysis. Journal of Clinical Psychology, 1989, 45: 957-74
• Haratani T, Henmi T. Effects of Transcendental Meditation on mental health of industrial workers. Japanese Journal of Industrial Health, 1990, 32: 656

In the second Study the Japanese Ministry of Labour was a collaberator and the Meta Analysis conducted at Stanford is of high quality with about 150 studies compiled if my memory serves. They are comparativley quite recent being published in 1990 and 1989 respectivly. I will use these two to improve the article.

I am not familiar with the other studies listed...but if they are all of high quality at what point does Otis's surevey become irrelevent? I noticed in the past that there were studies in the medical section published in the 70's that suggested TM had no effect on high blood pressure and they have been removed now since i assume the weight of research on TM lowering blood pressure existed?

Either way I will try and get something up about the two studies to balance otis's survey.--Uncreated (talk) 19:46, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

My understanding is that the early studies were removed because they are not current, and of course there is newer research that contradicts the older studies. But their age was a major factor. We may always have to include a counter balance to the weight of the positive TM research.The Otis study fills that place now. As the weight of positive peer reviewed research increases in terms of the overall collections of studies so can we decrease as per WP:Weight the more negative studies, but at least one study may always be necessary to show both sides of the information. This is probably something that will have to be discussed and an agreement reached so that all agree the weight of the information in the article is appropriately distributed.

Getting close on the new addition. The wording must be very accurate so fine tuning that aspect. Thanks for your continued attention on this article.(olive (talk) 02:09, 9 November 2008 (UTC))

I don't think any earlier studies were removed. The Lancet studies are both still mentioned -- which I think are the only studies that might be removed under the guideline WP:MEDRS. TimidGuy (talk) 15:54, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Sheesh . I knew we had discussed removing those studies and had assumed we had, but didn't check. Apologies. I do agree with TG in that those are the only studies we could remove and I guess sucha move would take more discussion. Apologies.(olive (talk) 16:05, 9 November 2008 (UTC))

I have typed up a rough draft of something that we might be able to use. TG and Olive could you please look over to make sure it is appropriate in content, tone and length.

A 1971 survey by Leon Otis found that a significant percentage of those who practice the Transcendental Meditation technique also report feeling anxiety, confusion, and depression.

A 1977 Study published in the Journal of Clinical Psychology looked at the effect of Transcendental Meditation on Anxiety levels. Transcendental Meditation was shown to significantly reduce Anxiety in the practitioners as compared to controls who relaxed passively.

A 1989 Meta Analysis published in the Journal of Clinical Psychology compared 146 independent studies on the effect of different meditation and relaxation techniques in reducing trait anxiety. Transcendental Meditation was found to produce a significantly larger effect than other forms of meditation and relaxation in the reduction of trait anxiety. Additionally it was concluded that the difference between Transcendental Meditation and the other meditation and relaxation techniques appeared too large to be accounted for by the expectation effect.

A 1990 study published in the Japanese Journal of Industrial Health, conducted at Sumitomo Heavy Industries by the Japanese Ministry of Labour and others looked at Transcendental meditation and its effect on mental health and industrial workers. In the study 447 employees learnt the Transcendental Meditation technique and 321 employees served as controls. After a 5-month period, the researchers found significant decreases in major physical complaints, impulsiveness, emotional instability, and anxiety amongst the mediators as compared to the controls. The mediators also showed significant decreases in digestive problems, depression, and tendency toward psychosomatic disease, insomnia and smoking.

A study in the American Journal of Managed Care indicates that there are no known side effects associated with the Transcendental Meditation technique.

--Uncreated (talk) 03:59, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Good job! I wonder if we could condense it a bit, so that it's not too long relative to the other sections. I wonder if we should delete the sentence about side effects. The article is a review of research on Transcendental Meditation, and just briefly mentions that there are no known side effects, but doesn't really look into that in any detail. TimidGuy (talk) 17:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, good job.... I also wouldn't mind seeing if it can be condensed, just to make sure in terms of weight as applies to space its not too long. I would also agree to remove the side effects part. Listing the different studies is a pretty strong statement and adding this last part may be a little overkill.(olive (talk) 19:13, 10 November 2008 (UTC))

Thanks TG for the copyediting.--Uncreated (talk) 22:27, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

NSR

Natural Stress Relief is not Transcendental Meditation, for example it uses a single mantra, so there is no reason to link it from this article. If we were to start including forms of meditation that are not TM for whatever reason,this article could include multiple forms of meditation, and would be pages long(olive (talk) 18:56, 9 November 2008 (UTC))

Cult issues

I was just looking at this section and I noticed that Cult Awarness Network is misquoted. At the moment what it is:

In 1987, the Cult Awareness Network (CAN) held a press conference and demonstration in Washington, D.C., saying that the Transcendental Meditation technique “seeks to strip individuals of their ability to think and choose freely.” Steve Hassan, author of several books on cults, and at one time a CAN deprogrammer, said in the same press conference that those who practice the Transcendental Meditation technique display cult-like behaviors.

However when you actually read the article that the washington times published that this quote is sourced from it says:

The group charged in a press conference yesterday that the maharishi's Transcendental Meditation (TM) movement, of which yogic flying is an advanced stage, is not simply a method of relaxation through meditation, but a cult that ultimately seeks to strip individuals of their ability to think and choose freely.

I think this is an important distinction...that it is not the TM technique that “seeks to strip individuals of their ability to think and choose freely.” but the TM Movement. I think the cult issues section needs to be changed to reflect this but before I do so I would like to hear what the other editors think.--Uncreated (talk) 07:57, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing this. It would be nice if we could somehow avoid saying "TM Movement." That's sort of a bogeyman umbrella term used by ideological opponents. There is no corporate entity named the TM Movement, and it's a bit of an artificial construct. In general, I haven't seen that term used in the mainstream media or the scientific literature. Which is a long-winded way of saying maybe we could word it something like "the organization that teaches the Transcendental Meditation technique". TimidGuy (talk) 17:10, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

TG I understand what you are saying...to me the whole paragraph seems problematic. It seems to me to be a commentary on the TM organisation as opposed to the TM technique. The second sentence in the first paragraph regarding cult issues reads:

Steve Hassan, author of several books on cults, and at one time a CAN deprogrammer, said in the same press conference that those who practice the Transcendental Meditation technique display cult-like behaviors.

Now in the washington Post article as far as I can see that line was taken from the 2nd paragraph:

The group charged in a press conference yesterday that the maharishi's Transcendental Meditation (TM) movement, of which yogic flying is an advanced stage, is not simply a method of relaxation through meditation, but a cult that ultimately seeks to strip individuals of their ability to think and choose freely.

"They want you to dress and think and speak in a certain way and not to ask questions," said Steven Hassan, a former follower of the Rev. Sun Myung Moon who has studied cults for a decade. "They go into hypnotic trances and shut off who they are as a person."

I think in the 2nd Paragraph Steve Hassan is continuing to coment on the TM organisation. "They" can only mean the TM organisation.

Now up until this point in the wiki article of TM it has all been about the TM Technique and nothing about the organisation.

I think if we were to have something in the cult issue section we would actually have to find a Cult expert who had critisicms of the technique and not the organisation.

Later in the WP article this appears:

Hassan said at the press conference -- held at the Shoreham yesterday at the same time that the Maharishi Continental Assembly, a conference for followers of the maharishi, was getting underway in another part of the hotel -- that TM adherents suffer a "destruction of personality. It's an addiction, akin to alcohol and drugs."

He handed out a pamphlet saying that "physical and psychological harm" may result by using TM techniques "even if only for a short time."

Perhaps something from these two sentences could be used?

Also I think that if we were to continue as it is now it would be good to add a sentence quoting congressmen Leachs response to critisicms that MIU (who presumably organised the event):

Leach'sspokesman said the congressman, after being told of yesterday's criticisms of the TM movement, responded that MIU is "accredited by the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools and also recognized by the Federal Interagency Commission on Education."

Either way the whole section needs to be looked at I think.

Thoughts TG, Olive anyone else out there?

--Uncreated (talk) 18:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Sheesh... I can't believe I never saw that mistake in referencing the source. I think you're right, we need to change the reference. I'm not that excited about the quote you included as a possibler change ... It seems a little too emotional, but will keep thinking about it . Maybe there's something else?

I'm not sure the Leach comment would be a needed addition. Can we think about it. Rushing right now . Will come back to this.(olive (talk) 19:02, 12 November 2008 (UTC))

Yeah this will probably require a little bit of thought. Obviously there are people out there who think TM is a Cult and to maintain NPOV for the article there thoughts and feelings should probably be there somewhere in the article.

However reading through the WP article that covered the CAN conference the issues raised by Steve Hassan seems to be refuted by much of the research conducted on TM i.e. "physical and psychological harm" may result by using TM techniques "even if only for a short time."

I know WP is absolutley a reliable source but all the research conducted on TM seems to refute his essentially unsupported claims. I don't know what to do about it...but what we have now does not seem to be accurate.--Uncreated (talk) 00:30, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I guess the Misplaced Pages way is to let the reader decide. Maybe use the part about physical and psychological harm. If we were to do that, it seems like ideally it would be juxtaposed with the research rather than sequestered, so that the reader would see the two points of view together (Hassan's claim vs. research results). On the other hand, I don't know that we can entirely leave out the claims against the organizations teaching TM. Ideological opponents will likely expect some element of that in this article. One reason I used the part about stripping individuals' ability to think and choose freely is that this point was most directly addressed by the research cited by David OJ in his cult rebuttal. (By the way, he's in the process of submitting a couple very detailed papers to academic journals addressing the various claims regarding cult issues, showing that the research tends to refute these claims. Will be nice when we can cite that.) TimidGuy (talk) 17:08, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Since this article is about the technique perhaps it would be appropriate to stick to claims against the technique....a thought.(olive (talk) 17:16, 13 November

2008 (UTC))

I agree with Olive...I'm not sure we should include claims against the organisation. As far as I know 99% of the people who learn the technique simply learn and after being instructed in the technique never have anything to do with the TM organisation again. Also as far as I know to practice the technique after learning no further contact with the organisation needs to take place...to suggest otherwise in the tm wiki article would be misleading.

Perhaps we could open with something like this:

In 1987, the Cult Awareness Network (CAN) held a press conference and demonstration in Washington, D.C., saying "physical and psychological harm" may result by using TM techniques "even if only for a short time."

However I'm not sure how to juxtapose the research on TM with the cult claims with out bringing in OR from myside. Or would it be alright to say something about at this time the research conducted on TM suggests this not to be true and site appropriate research.--Uncreated (talk) 19:30, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually we could just site OJ in much the same we did before but instead use this page as a source.

http://www.truthabouttm.org/truth/IndividualEffects/DoesTMDoAnyHarm/index.cfm --Uncreated (talk) 19:42, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm stumped. We may not be able to use the OJ page immediately above, because I think it would need to directly address the cult issue, if we're going to use it to rebut a cult claim. Worried about WP:NOR. And any research we cite should also directly address this. OJ is going to be radically revising the cult section of his web site now that he's done research for the scholarly papers his submitting on the cult topic. Maybe the new version will be useful in this context. TimidGuy (talk) 18:50, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I have put alot of thought into and I think that it makes the article weaker in appearence by not having a cult issue section. I think the simplest thing to would be is to have:

In 1987, the Cult Awareness Network (CAN) held a press conference and demonstration in Washington, D.C., saying "physical and psychological harm" may result by using TM techniques "even if only for a short time. Psychologist Steve Hassan, author of several books on cults, and at one time a CAN deprogrammer, said in the same press conference that those who practice the Transcendental Meditation technique suffer a "destruction of personality. It's an addiction, akin to alcohol and drugs."

Remove everything else including ojs comments...and wait for some better information to come to light. thoughts? --Uncreated (talk) 19:51, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Or we could just remove the section entirely because in my opinion he's just some crazed nutter who's got up on his soap box and sprouted his opinions without any supporting evidence or reason as to why. --Uncreated (talk) 19:56, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

The section you have suggested does not mention that TM displays cult like tendencies does it? Then placing in there, statements about TM and the harm it does and then adding OJ's statements on cult is actually OR and we can't use it . In fact now that I think about it TM itself can't be a cult since a cult is an organizational phenomena but not a a technique so we are really up the creek here without anything. Cult is organization but not a technique. TM is a technique. Connecting the two together is in reality OR. More thought necessary(olive (talk) 22:43, 15 November 2008 (UTC))

Wikipeda transcendental meditation page hits

http://stats.grok.se/en/200811/transcendental_meditation

Interesting...this page for the last 6 months averages about 16000 hits a month. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Uncreated (talk • contribs) 04:26, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

New section on mechanics of the technique

As per suggestions and requests I'd like to suggest this version of "Mechanics of the TM technique". I am using Shear as a source and attempting to stay away from TM organization sources to hopefully have something that is as a neutral POV as possible. Comments are welcome, of course.(olive (talk) 20:07, 13 November 2008 (UTC))

According to Jonathan Shear in, The Experience of Meditation: Experts Introduce the Major Traditions, the Transcendental Meditation Technique is a mental procedure based on the premises; that the mind has an innate tendency to move towards happiness and satisfaction, and that although the objective source of thought in the mind is an electrochemical process, the subjective experience is that thought arises from somewhere inside the individual not locatable through normal everyday experience, and is characterized as a simple, silent state of awareness beyond thought. This experience, a fourth state of awareness is unlike the everyday experiences of the three states of awareness of waking, dreaming and sleeping.

In order to reach a silent state beyond thought, the path must be effortless and natural, and the thought vehicle (mantra) used to reach this state must have no meaning attributed to it. If the mantra has a meaning attributed to it than the mind will become attentive to the meaning of the mantra, and will become active rather than more silent. For this reason practitioners of the TM technique are given a mantra that is utilized for its sound aspect only. The mantra facilitates the transition of the mind from the active level to the silent state beyond thought.

This transition occurs through the reversal of the natural thinking process. Thought begins at deep levels of the mind and is more abstract, less clearly defined here, but with the mind’s attention becomes more clearly defined and concrete. The TM technique is structured to reverse and so utilize this natural process. Through the use of the mantra, the mind in a natural way moves from the perceivable, concrete levels of thought to abstract levels of thought until the thought itself is transcended or disappears, and the practitioner can experience the silent state beyond thought. The experience of this silent state creates rest in the mind, and by reason of the mind’s connection to the body, also the body.

Exellent Olive, that will be a very good addition to the article...this is what has been missing. I have not read the book but from my understanding of the technique his description of how tm works sounds accurate. --Uncreated (talk) 03:38, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I had help to make sure the language was completely accurate to the source of course, but also to the technique :o)...Lets leave it here for a few days to make sure all editors have a chance to comment.(olive (talk) 14:10, 14 November 2008 (UTC))

• Start-Class Alternative medicine articles
• Misplaced Pages controversial topics