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Actually, I'm wondering what is more tragic . That Gerrard found a parent on wikipedia, or that the parent disappointed him?--] (]) 23:09, 18 November 2008 (UTC) Actually, I'm wondering what is more tragic . That Gerrard found a parent on wikipedia, or that the parent disappointed him?--] (]) 23:09, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
*Probably pointless, but I've asked arbcom for a temp desysop here (please see RFAR). ] (]) 23:14, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


== RIP Lady Catherine == == RIP Lady Catherine ==

Revision as of 23:14, 18 November 2008

He has a dream


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File:Animalibrí.gif

Old messages are at:

Essays:

Nasty things:

  • Giano's advice of the day: "dans ce pays-ci, il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres" for the benefit of those non French speakers "in this country, it is good from time to time to kill an admiral to encourage others" In other words do be carful when trying to be intelectual and using quotes of the great, it can backfire horribly if one is less than great.


Please leave new messages below

DYK for Arabian Hall of the Winter Palace

Updated DYK query On 10 November, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Arabian Hall of the Winter Palace, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Thank you for your contributions! - Cheers, Mailer Diablo 16:36, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

St Petersburg

Giano,

About your great Winter Palace pages. I was wondering if we needed to disambiguate the St Petersburg part, at least in the lead of all of your pages. Being American, when I see St Petersburg, I think of a place in Florida. Looking at the two pages, St. Petersburg, Florida and Saint Petersburg, it looks as if the "St" is actually spelled out "Saint" for the Russian city. Is the abbreviated "St" used interchangeably in Russia? What are your thoughts? Tex (talk) 16:28, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Mmmm....., to be honest the place in Florida had not sprung into my mind, but I see your point - does anyone actually write Saint Petersburg. I really don't want to write that in full, but nor do I want to say St Petersburg, Russia, as it would be like saying Paris, France, especialy as I know my friend, Wetman, has a story on the subject. I suppose we had better wait and see what others say. Giano (talk) 16:45, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
I guess the Florida place was on my mind because I recently plowed through a lot of the American history pages and ran across that one. Anyway, it wouldn't be that hard to search and replace St Petersburg with Saint Petersburg, but as you say, the folks who read this page will probably have an opinion and I'd like to hear from them. Tex (talk) 16:55, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

St Petersburg redirects to Saint Petersburg. So does St. Petersburg, although most style guides will tell you to leave the stop off "St". But look. (OK - I admit, it was not him, but he left it after this.) -- Testing times (talk) 17:57, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Is there a Winter Palace (Russian: Зимний дворец) in St Petersburg, Florida, that was, from 1732 to 1917, the official residence of the Russian Tsars? I think it's unlikely to cause confusion otherwise. Yomangani 18:13, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Given the log cabin, I'm not sure I could say one way or the other. -- Testing times (talk) 18:40, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah well whatever, but I'll tell you what after this I don't intend to do another St Pete's page for a very long time. I have never come across so many contradictory references trying to write a page ever. It's getting to be a chore now, but only a couple more pages to get into mainspace and I'm there. Giano (talk) 18:31, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Rooms

I don't quite understand the question. The hall occupies the entire space between the windows, there is no place for a lavatory. Years ago I spent hundreds of hours around there, and I still remember something. Whether we need coordinates in such articles and how they should be sourced is another issue (there is a small difference between different map systems on the web, but not significant enough, and the 0.0001° precision is ok for such a large hall), but as the Jordan Staircase has coordinates (which were wrong until recently, by the way), why not? Colchicum (talk) 19:06, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

There was a secret lavatory hidden behind the curtains of the throne, for the sole use of the Tsar on state occasions. I was just concerned that you may have mistaken it. Giano (talk) 22:28, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Winter Palace

Hi, you were very helpful last time, how can I tell if this image is free . it says all rights reserved, but it is not lit up in green like the thing below it, does that mean it is not copyright? Giano (talk) 08:35, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi Giano. I'm afraid it's not free, the key bit is "All Rights Reserved". The bit below is a symbol which shows it can be seen by anyone, as opposed to just the photographer's friends; for some reason Flickr colours in that symbol but not the copyright one.
If a photo's free it'll say "some rights reserved" instead of "All rights reserved", and have either the Creative Commons BY or BY-SA logos, as in these two pictures. However, beware the non-commercial or no derivatives symbols as in this one as these make the work non-free by Misplaced Pages standards. Alas, most of the Creative Commons licensed stuff on Flickr is for non-commercial use only, so truly free photos are a small minority.
You can search for free stuff on Flickr by going to the advanced search page and ticking "Only search within Creative Commons-licensed content", and both of the boxes "Find content to use commercially" and "Find content to modify, adapt, or build upon". Doing that on "Winter Palace" brings up 112 hits, a few of which are of a different one in Mongolia, and "Hermitage museum" brings up 130. Not many good ones of the interior of the palace I'm afraid, but if you find anything which would be useful and would like some help uploading it, just let me know.
As for the picture you asked about, if you like I could send the photographer a message and ask if he'd be willing to change the licence so it can be used on Misplaced Pages. Obviously there are no guarantees, but I'm told that that people on Flickr are often quite helpful if asked nicely. Were you planning to use it on the main Winter Palace page or a sub page? It might help if I could point him towards a draft page to show him where it would be used.
Cheers, Iain99 21:37, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
That would be good, it is this page here. Some recent interior shots of high quality woould make a nice change from all the old watercolours, which though good, are not exactly contemporary. Thanks. Giano (talk) 22:32, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
OK, I've sent him a message, we'll see what he says. Iain99 23:56, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Alas, he hasn't replied to my message, but he's uploaded pictures since I sent it so he's obviously been logging on. I guess that's a "no" then. Sorry. :-( Iain99 19:24, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Not a disinfo-box, but something unifying

Talking of my recent works, I want some advice from those of you who are generally in tune with my thoughts, as the end comes into sight of what I think most people will forgive me for thinking of as "my category" (don't worry, I'll get over it) I want something like a banner or a logo to tie what may become {Category: Winter Palace} (a sub-category of Hermitage) together, to make it clear they are in fact more one big page than a small category (there will be 20 pages when I've finished). If something like that could be invented then perhaps I won't create a Winter Palace category and leave them Hermitage - as that is what it is today. Especially as I hope others will start to add to the little room pages with the contents they contain today, that way Misplaced Pages's abysmal coverage of the State Hermitage Museum can be improved. I don't want a disinfo-box or anything that reduces the lead image to a postage stamp, or encourages idiots to keep adding further silly facts; but something that presents the page as part of a greater page - nor do I want little double headed crowned eagles winking cheekily from the corner of the page either (they'd frighten Spumoni). Any ideas? It's a difficult one isn't it? Giano (talk) 08:59, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

How would you feel about a "navbox" template at the foot of each page with links to the associated pages? - look for example at the foot of Touchen End. Nancy 09:05, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, that is just the sort of thing I was thinking of, can they be livened up and made to look a little more inviting? Sort of add a logo or something? Giano (talk)
Definitely, yes. Many existing ones have either a logo or a photograph to add a bit of interest. Nancy 09:12, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Great, I'll hunt about for a logo, something that is common to all the pages, trouble is i don't want naff things like crowns and eagles - does Russia have a logo type thing now? They did have the hammer and scyckle, but i don't want that either. Lemme go look at their flag. Ah does modern St Petersburg have a crest or a flag Giano (talk) 09:18, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
How about this Image:Coat of Arms of Saint Petersburg large (2003).png sort of modern but refering to the Imperial past as well? Is that allowed? Giano (talk) 09:20, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Looks just the thing. I'd be happy to pull something together for you this evening if you let me know how you'd like it - title, sub-section headings etc & what pages are to be included in the lists. Nancy 09:41, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
That would be great, thanks; the pages done so far are all listed here . I htink, it need the main Winter palace page to be given prominence and then list the others. Giano (talk) 11:38, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

How's this? Nancy 19:28, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

The Winter Palace
Rooms Coat of Arms of Saint Petersburg
Miscellaneous

That is really brilliant! I think we will have to leave the poor old cabin out as it's not really a room, but otherwise it is exactly what I wanted I wonder what twit in the MOS banned the definite article, but never mind that can't be helped. Thanks so much that is truly great, do you want to add it to the pages in mainspace? Giano (talk) 20:06, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't like the crest. What does it have to do with the Winter Palace? The navbox is good enough without it. Colchicum (talk) 20:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Also I am not sure how they should be ordered, but this should be changed, because now the order is random. If the modern Hermitage room numbers are of some use, Arabian Hall – 155, Malachite Room – 189, Field Marshall's Hall - 193, Small Throne Room – 194, Armorial Hall – 195, Military Gallery – 197, St. George's Hall – 198, Apollo Hall – 260, Gold Drawing Room – 304, Grand Church – 271, Alexander Hall – 282, White Hall – 289, Private Rooms – 157-188 + 303, Rotonda – 156, Neva Enfilade - 190-192. Colchicum (talk) 20:36, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
I've taken Peter's Cabin out - I guess it can go in as a "See also". The order is fairly arbitrary at the moment - I just worked down the list - the template is in mainspace now so nothing stopping anyone with more of a clue than I rearranging as they wish. In the meantime I'll add it to the articles. Nancy 21:08, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Move to mainspace

I note your request here. If it hasn't been done by another passing admin by the time I get home today, I will move it then, archive the talk, etc. I'd do it now, but the computer I'm on is archaic. Risker (talk) 12:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I need it to go, I am getting too attached to it! I'm working fast to finish the last pages before I return to real life and drudgery on Monday - then I can turn my attention to other matters. Giano (talk) 12:54, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I think I moved everything you wanted, should be all set. MBisanz 12:55, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, you make a great mid-wife. I expect we will all spot the mistakes now, and all the Winter palace experts will appear too. God it's like waiting for exam results all over again. Giano (talk) 12:58, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
on an amusing note: I have just seen the pages first edit ever - well it has to be an improvement, but does rather support my arguement for the use of "The." Giano (talk) 13:00, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

No interwiki shown

For some reason i fail getting the interwiki shown on the article about the Grand Church/ Would you have any idea how to fix it?Muscovite99 (talk) 20:14, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, trial and error has just made the Russian lang display, but made the nav template in the wrong place. It's something to do with having a gallery on the page, in my experience if the galler is not last it ruins everything that comes after it. I expect someone will know what we are doing wrong. Giano (talk) 20:21, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
I fixed it: the closing tag was wrong, it was <gallery/> instead of </gallery>. Cheers, Amalthea 12:33, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Catherine de' Medici

Many thanks for your kind comments. Sorry I didn't answer earlier, but I have been on a wikibreak, so to speak. Seems I missed a front-page day, thank goodness! qp10qp (talk) 15:54, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

DYK for Grand Church of the Winter Palace

Updated DYK query On 15 November, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Grand Church of the Winter Palace, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Cirt (talk) 16:48, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Image repairs

I saw a thread on your talk page or somewhere a few days ago about GIF image repairs. Image:FA stats by type (February 2008) barchart.gif and Image:FA stats by type (February 2008) piechart.gif have their thumbnails broken. I noticed someone repaired your images. Any ideas on who to ask? Carcharoth (talk) 19:19, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Black Kite and Amadjm did some for me, but I have 100s more to do, sometime when I have time. Apparently, you have to download them and convert to JPEG or something like that, perhaps they'll just switch the bloody thing back on soon and all the problems will be solved. Giano (talk) 10:20, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Hello Giano, I'm still working on your blanky images, and improving the quality as I go. Up to Holkham Hall. There are some that are not worth the effort, or simply won't convert well by the means that I am using. You'll notice that they are getting clean blue skies, rather than square-patterned skies. It's boring, and I wish you would kindly ask one of your children who is good at fiddling with digital images. Or better still, learn to do it yourself. Since one gets small thanks around here.
I have left a request on the Warwickshire project page, in the hope that someone might provide a decent image of Compton Wynyates. Do you know anyone in Warwickshire? If so, get them motivated.
I observe that you have done some writing on William Wardell. I'd like a reference for the spires of St. Pat's being out of proportion with the building. "Some" can "say" anything they like. I don't think anyone in Melbourne complains about them.
I can probably dig up a bit more local information on Wardell, and reference the article a bit better, because it's rather lacking in references. I saw a big church in London with very Wardellish features and I don't know what it was.
Concerning Italianate architecture in Australia, the master of the Italianate style was James Barnet. Amandajm (talk) 11:23, 16 November 2008 (UTC)


Yes, I did do some writing there, i think I wrote it. You obviously failed to notice I removed the fact shorty after you plastered the "cite tag" on the page, this was becasue the references used to write that page were long ago returned to their owners. However, luckily, a quick google soon found a reference for the fact here:

  • "The three spires of St Patrick's cathedral, added long after Wardell's death, were re-designed, and though beautiful it is doubtful whether their increased height has kept the proportions so well as in the original design"

of course it is quite easy to see that both tapering and heigt are all wrong. The cathedral's own website hints at it too:n

  • "Its proportions are perfection themselves: when they appear not to be harmonious, it is due to the work of others who added to or altered the building without fully respecting the concept and architectural philosophy of the original designs."
  • "The heights of all three spires and of the central tower were considerably increased in the 1930s when the time was opportune to complete the building."
  • "In the alterations of the late 1930s, it was rebuilt in the present form which would almost certainly have not met with Wardell's approval."

I'll leave it you to re-add the fact. Thanks for the link on Australian Italianate architecture, I have no plans at present to explore that avenue of architecture. Giano (talk) 15:34, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

DYK for Cabin of Peter the Great

Updated DYK query On 16 November, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Cabin of Peter the Great, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Cirt (talk) 06:06, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Block for sockpuppetry

I and several other checkusers have checked your and User:Catherine de Burgh's editing activity, and it's blindingly clear you're running the account as a "good hand" account in your run for arbcom. As such, I've blocked the account indefinitely and you for 24 hours, and notified Arbcom and Jimmy Wales.

I was reminded I'd checked this account in late 2006; chatting to Bishonen in IRC confirmed it was in fact yours. She convinced me not to block you for it then, saying you wouldn't do anything serious with it and were only playing. It appears you're doing a lot more than that. Please don't, it's antisocial behaviour and easily caught once anyone looked - David Gerard (talk) 21:48, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Is this a joke? HiDrNick! 21:54, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
No, it's not a joke. Several checkusers looked over the evidence and concurred that it was blindingly obvious before action was taken - David Gerard (talk) 22:12, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
So obvious that Giano might be surprised anyone thought this was secret? WJBscribe (talk) 22:15, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm afraid you're a little out of touch. You don't exactly have to be one of Giano's IRC buddies to know that this is an accout of his. That's some mighty fine checkusering there, Lou. HiDrNick! 22:45, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
  • I should wonder that by inferring Giano is a "bad hand" (the type that creates FA's, GA's, and writes articles admired by the majority) you have not admitted that it is Giano's opinions that you (and those who think like you) have deemed to be "bad". Clarification, even in such a morally bankrupt manner, is welcome. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:57, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
David, I don't think that this is the best thing you've ever done. Calling the Catherine de Burgh account a good hand account stretches credibility. Especially considering the answers that the account gave to questions for ArbCom. Were you going to block Bishzilla for being a good hand account for Bishonen? Considering the two Bishes are even more related then Catherine de Burgh and Giano,and considering the past history between you and Giano, this smacks of payback and absolutely HORRIBLE judgement. Please reverse it. Immediately. SirFozzie (talk) 22:00, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Wholeheartedly agree with you her Fozz. BigDunc 22:02, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Sockpuppetry for the purposes of attempting to appear as multiple users is precisely what WP:SOCK is about. I suggest appeals go to the arbcom. Giano has been busted utterly in this particular case - David Gerard (talk) 22:14, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
I suggest you be ready to try to defend this on AN shortly, then. SirFozzie (talk) 22:15, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Nope, that isn't what WP:Sock#Good/Bad hands says, and that is the basis of the block. Also, since you seemed a little vague (it was hard to tell, since you didn't respond in public) on the editing of the IRC page on that ArbCom, which involved this editor again, which is supposedly your area of expertise you will forgive those who question your understanding of policy here as well... LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:27, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

This feels a bit like someone blocking their parents on discovering they aren't really Santa Claus. I was under the impression that the fact Lady Catherine and Giano were alternative accounts of each other is common knowledge. WJBscribe (talk) 22:17, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Exactly! This was a commonly known sock. A joke account. FloNight♥♥♥ 22:19, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Eh?--Santa (talk) 22:53, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
I didn't know about it. Which is not to set me up as a particularly vital or important user who should know about things. Quite the contrary, I've followed the entire Giano saga with at best passing interest, though I have definite opinions about it. But I cannot imagine that I am the only person who did not know about this, and whose opinion would change if he did. Commonly known does not equal universally known. The sockpuppet rules are not designed merely for the benefit of those who are up to speed on the latest gossip. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:55, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Dreadful call. There was no way that sock was ever going to win the election, even if Giano could keep the façade up (Giano's not subtle enough for that). If you were truly worried that the election might be successfully gamed - why not quietly e-mail Giano and ask him to admit the sock openly or withdraw the nomination. That would have been drama-reducing. Now........of well, the reaction is as predictable as it is boring. You did this for drama, and now Giano gets to up the drama by going to arbcom....... you two are too alike.--Scott MacDonald (talk) 22:20, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Appalling block. It suggests to me that either not a lot of thought actually went in to it, or ... well, other possibilities would be assuming bad faith if I were to voice them. What possible major disruption to Misplaced Pages could be caused by a commonly known sock of Giano's running for ArbCom? Not to mention that calling CdB a "good hand" account is a personal attack on Giano. Ludicrous, and that's putting it mildly. Black Kite 22:29, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
    • I do not think an insinuation that Giano's edits on his main account are known to be disruptive or provocative is a personal attack, or even terribly controversial. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:55, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
      • Horribly one-sided and biased, Phil. Have some of his edits been disruptive or provocative, sure. But have a vast majority of his edits been FA/GA quality? Even More obviously true. Trying to call CdB's accounts Good-hand compared to Giano requires a stretch of the imagination unknown to mankind. SirFozzie (talk) 23:02, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
      • No, it's not controversial, it's just plain wrong. As SirFozzie says, the vast majority of Giano's edits are positive, and trying to spin it any other way to justify this comically ill-advised - and thankfully rapidly community-reversed - block doesn't sit well at all. Black Kite 23:10, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Lady Catherine's responses at these questions for the candidate are recognizably similar to what one might expect from, say, Dame Edna, possums. Humour concerning the Arbitration Committee and its election is not welcome, it is perfectly clear, especially coming from Giano. I, for one, wouldn't dare snicker at the Arbitration Committee, or whisper a complaint about their rationales for blocking right and left. --Wetman 22:33, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Brought up at AN for a quick reversal of this ludicrous action. SirFozzie (talk) 22:37, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Wowsers, this could be on CNN BREAKING NEWS. Seriously though, where's the proof of sock-puppetry? GoodDay (talk) 22:46, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Ridiculous

I have a few questions, David.

  1. On what ground were Giano and Lady Catherine CheckUsered?
  2. I'll say again that Giano was playing, if you need to hear it. In what sense was he doing anything else? Er, did any of you CheckUsers actually read Lady C's election statement, and her answers to questions? They were satirical (and effortlessly taken in that spirit by those posting individual questions to her). Please don't tell me you took them as an actual attempt to get on ArbCom, because that's ridiculous.
  3. What's with the special treatment of Giano? How come you didn't block me for running Bishzilla as a good hand account trying to get on ArbCom? Wasn't that pretty obvious sockpuppetry for a much longer time? Bishonen | talk 22:32, 18 November 2008 (UTC).
Even if Giano and Her Ladyship are socks, I see no harm. Bearian (talk) 23:01, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


Actually, I'm wondering what is more tragic here. That Gerrard found a parent on wikipedia, or that the parent disappointed him?--Santa (talk) 23:09, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

RIP Lady Catherine

We now see this disgraced Arbcom and its checkusers for exactly what they are . Lets not invoke Godwins Law, but go quietly away and contemplate the life of the late Lady Catherine. Giano (talk) 23:11, 18 November 2008 (UTC)