Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:10, 29 November 2008

Archives

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17

This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

Notice to IP and newly-registered editors

IP and newly registered editors: due to vandalism, it has become necessary that this page be semiprotected, which may prevent you from leaving a message here. If you cannot edit this page, please leave me messages at User talk:Abd/IP.

RfC on my conduct relevant to my block on August 11

A user-space RfC on my conduct as relating to my block on August 11, 2008, has been proceeding at a glacial pace, and appears ready to determine a conclusion on the first issue, whether or not I had behaved as charged in the initial warning. Comment from all users is welcome. The RfC summary page is at User:Abd/RfC/8.11.08 block, but discussion and comment is at User talk:Abd/RfC/8.11.08 block.

WELCOME TO Abd TALK

WARNING: Reading the screeds, tomes, or rants of Abd has been known to cause serious damage to mental health. One editor, a long-time Wikipedian, in spite of warnings from a real-life organization dedicated to protecting the planet from the likes of Abd, actually read Abd's comments and thought he understood them.

After reading, his behavior became erratic. He proposed WP:PRX and insisted on promoting it. Continuing after he was unblocked, and in spite of his extensive experience, with many thousands of edits,he created a hoax article and actually made a joke in mainspace. When he was unblocked from that, he created a non-notable article on Easter Bunny Hotline, and was finally considered banned. What had really happened? His brain had turned to Slime mold (see illustration).

Caution is advised.

Great job!

		The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
		Abd, you've gotten far too few barnstars considering everything you've been doing around here. Don't think for a minute that other people don't notice your dedication. Keep up the good work! --Explodicle (T/C) 21:34, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Tireless? Then WTF do I feel so tired? Fortunately, Misplaced Pages allows me to serve, without depending on me, so I can stuff in some activity when I've some loose minutes. Others do depend on me. It's nice, though, to be recognized. That might be my first barnstar; it's a bit ironic; I used to work much harder here, but it was on structural stuff, which is just about as likely to piss people off as to impress them, no matter whether it's good work or poor.

One trick I learned: when people demand that you do something -- or refrain from doing something, even when it's clear that they are ignorant and simply trying to get rid of you, listen. Try it. You might like it. --Abd (talk) 14:24, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Check this out

I swear, this is a first. I was doing vandalism patrol, and someone actually vandalized a closed sock puppet report you authored a long time ago.

Do what you want, but I figured you should know.Yachtsman1 (talk) 02:23, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Geolocates to New York, Fredrick day is in or about London. However, the vandal was reading this report, it's been mentioned in a number of places. The whole Fredrick day thing has been discussed a bit on Misplaced Pages Review, and I made a post there recently, so someone may have been following up on that, who was inclined to vandalize. (There is pretty clearly at least one Fd sympathizer active on WR.) Doesn't mean much, but thanks for the heads-up. --Abd (talk) 14:16, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

ADHD

Hello Abd

I see you have had an interest in ADHD in the past. We need some help on some issues. Scuro and I are basically at war over weather or not ADHD is controversial. He keeps trying to eliminate all references to the controversy. He is now trying to get me banned or repremanded.

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/jmh649

Many Thanks --Doc James (talk) 21:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I've taken a preliminary glance at the RfC and at the Mediation case preceding it. I'm aware of the history of Scuro and could not be considered neutral with respect to him. There has been toxic interaction between him and a psychiatrist who was pretty frustrated with Scuro's intransigence. The mediation case doesn't look like an attempt to mediate a dispute, it looks like an attempt to win, to wear down opposition, not to find consensus. However, having said that, it seems you have shot yourself in the foot with some of your comments. Don't worry, you are in good company. It's highly tempting, faces with what seems like idiocy, to cry "idiot!" (That's a general comment, not a specific reference to the present case.) Scuro represents an important "constituency," so to speak, a POV. So the problem is how to use that for the benefit of the project and contain it so that it doesn't do damage. It's not easy; he's been active for a long time and steadily wears away at these articles. He's a ], or at least was the last time I checked. Most other contributors to the articles come and go.

Never edit war. Pushing 3RR, not to mention crossing it, is not what experienced editors do. Instead, get help, and patiently persist. Let the other person be stubborn, if they must; it gets difficult when other editors arrive and review what is going on.

Misplaced Pages is, unfortunately, sometimes like the myth of Sisyphus. There are proposals afoot that might change this, or might not, there are entrenched constituencies that like things the way that they are.

Now, as to this RfC, I just started looking at some of the evidence presented. The first thing I looked at was awful. Scuro writes, in his claims regarding your alleged edit warring,

• jmh649 comments about how edit warring is "fun".

That's totally outrageous. The comment was jocular, and an attempt to begin to negotiate a consensus. Taking the "fun" comment out of context and presenting it as incriminating evidence is highly deceptive. It may be time to create another RfC. The way I see it, the mediation case doesn't look to me, at least on quick examination, to be a good-faith effort to find consensus.

I looked at the edit warring over the tag. That's not the way to do it, Dr. James. First of all, an edit quality tag is relatively harmless if left in. It's almost never an emergency requiring removal so much that it justifies edit warring. Think it should go? Take it out once, and discuss it. Not just in the edit summary. And not somewhere else, like the mediation case, discuss it in article Talk. If you are determined to take it out again, give it some time. The 3RR rule is a bright line. You hit 3RR November 3, you were warned -- though certainly Scuro wasn't the best person to warn you, and he was edit warring himself. If you had reverted again, a block would have been practically automatic, once it was brought to an adminstrator's attention, given that you were warned. But edit warring is contrary to policy even short of 3RR.

The simplest way to resolve disputes like this is to appeal for *informal* mediation, i.e., try to find someone the user in question might respect and seek their opinion. Short of that, consult and enlist other editors to support your edits, do not "fight" alone, it's too easy to get caught up in it. I've seen quite a few users blocked for insisting, through edit warring, on proper text. Right goal, perhaps, but wrong method. Misplaced Pages is a community and depends on collaborative editing. I understand your frustration and impatience. I hope, by the way, that you merely lost your patience, not your patients. You are not a good copy editor. The POV tag you were edit warring over is on a sentence that is blatantly grammatically defective. Why did nobody notice and correct it? Bad sign. "The controversies has involved ..." plural subject, singular verb. I saw that several times in your writing.... (When the community is functioning, your small errors would be caught and fixed by others. If I were opposed to your apparent POV, and I saw that sentence, at the same time as I tagged it (which is a relatively respectful way of challenging a statement that one considers misleading), I'd fix the grammar. Something is wrong that this didn't happen quickly, it wasn't fixed until the 7th.)

One problem I see, which is one I've seen for a long time with the ADHD articles, is that WP:RS standards are used as if they were weapons in a battle. When a statement isn't controversial, it's a bit rude to tag it, to demand reliable source for what is not, actually, in doubt. It's called wikilawyering. I'll try to pay some attention to what is going on, perhaps comment in the RfC. But I may also try to find someone to intervene.

One more issue. You are, apparently, a clinician. This makes you, to some degree at least, an expert. Experts can have a lot of trouble with Misplaced Pages. At the same time as the right hand tries to encourage experts to contribute, the left hand insults and disrespects them, accuses them of conflict of interest, and often drives them off. Misplaced Pages process can be arcane and next to impenetrable, sometimes, so ask for help and don't make assumptions about what Misplaced Pages is. Often some of us come across this place and see what seems to be the basic idea. But the reality can be different. Take it easy, don't allow yourself to get upset, I recommend reading WP:DGAF. There is wisdom in that. Time is on the side of truth. Don't lose either your patience or your patients.

I'm concerned about one thing I just noticed. You seem to have a habit of deleting comments on your Talk page, without commenting in response. This can be perceived as extremely rude. Now, I see that you did respond on the commenting user's Talk page; however, when this is done, each comment then appears out of context. To some extent, you are making yourself look like an uncooperative editor, for anyone who reviews your Talk page. In fact, as with the matter of edit summaries and a comment made by Vannin, you are cooperative, but my first impression was the reverse. I had to do more looking around to notice that. --Abd (talk) 03:57, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Abd many thanks for your comments. I have tried to find more editors a couple of times with unfortunately little success. I posted on the WP:med page in Sept http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Medicine/Collaboration_of_the_Week#ADHD trying to get people to join in.

They two editors have insulted my school and insulted my friends which I take as a personal insult and have returned in kind. I would be happy if you could find someone versed in medicine to mediate for us. The issue is with sources and research methods.

Doc James (talk) 06:36, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Here's my take. Yes, without verifying the matter of insults to your friends, I can believe it based on prior behavior. However, Misplaced Pages is not a battleground. Scuro steps over the line at times, but, now, so have you. If you are going to deal with possible harm being done by Scuro, you'll need to do a number of things. First of all, reform your own behavior. Get some experience, more extensive than you have, editing other articles. Get to know the community, and let the community get to know you. As to the articles in question, move your activity more to the Talk pages than to the article itself. Identify other editors who can help you. I have ADHD, not a marginal diagnosis, take regular methylphenidate and bupropion, have experienced great benefit from them, and I have a certain skepticism about the routine identification and treatment of ADHD, which seems to rely far too heavily, far too often, on drugs, I'd call it a one-third solution. I'll help, from time to time. I have other fish to fry, big fish. Put together a group of such editors with both experience with Misplaced Pages and knowledge of ADHD, you'll be far more effective, if you care about the article. If it's your friends you care about, well, you'll be distracted by every looney that comes along, and the internet is full of them.

Your recent course of action will get you blocked. Scuro was certainly the wrong person to warn you, but, quite the same, you were the wrong person to warn Scuro. Yesterday, I suggested to Scuro that he withdraw the RfC. While I might also be the wrong person (he's thought at various times that I was out to get him, and he took what was, in my opinion, sober criticism of his editing as personal attack -- sound familiar?), I also pinged an admin, you can see his response to me below. Scuro might trust this person. And identifying other editors who might be trusted by a problem editor is part of my general strategy for dealing with disruption of the project. It's far better, and seems to be more effective, than trying to get them blocked or banned. And certainly than fighting with them tit-for-tat, which can get one or the other or both blocked, and which comes first is quite erratic.

I believe that you can be a very valuable contributor to the project, based on the little I've seen. I'm taking your claim to be a medical practitioner at face value. The horrible spelling doesn't contradict that. It's easier to correct bad spelling than it is to find good writing. Good writers sometimes are disabled like this: that's why they need good editors. So I hate to see you taken down by Scuro and your own over-reaction to him. Back up and back off. The same advice is being given to him. If he pursues the RfC with intensity, he could end up essentially assassinating himself, particularly if you've reformed and have shown that.

And, really, I'd give -- am giving -- the same advice to him, more or less. Collaborate, don't fight. Each of you have something to contribute. I'd do a lot more if I had time, I've got to go pick up a daughter at school, just got a call that she's not well today.... --Abd (talk) 17:51, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

To continue my comment: Both you and Scuro appear to make the same mistake; I'm much more familiar with him. It's an easy mistake to make if one takes Misplaced Pages guidelines as if they were rules. Even the policies aren't exactly rules, and actual practice can easily set them aside. Misplaced Pages really runs based on editorial consensus. In the short term, an article can become warped because extra attention might be given to it by someone with a POV or agenda. But in the long term, articles are only stable if a consensus develops, which is then defended by *many* editors who watch the article. When this is done in a healthy way, that consensus is an open one and new editors are invited to join it and shift it if that is needed. When it isn't healthy, a set of editors become a tag team and own the article. Regardless, the real editorial standard is editorial consensus, and consensus is not defined as "majority." (And the actual structure that enforces "consensus" is quirky and unreliable, something I'd like to address in the long run.) To my mind, the goal is complete consensus, and my experience with consensus organizations leads me to believe that approaching this is possible. The Misplaced Pages editorial community is so large and so diverse and, sometimes, so stubborn that total consensus is probably impossible. But if we have almost consensus, it becomes very easy for an article to become stable, with many editors who are fundamentally in agreement on the article text, having hammered it out and dealing with POV obstacles, which isn't easy or trivial, watching it and standing against isolated dissent, while remaining welcoming. Tricky, sometimes. Many Misplaced Pages editors, including quite a few administrators, imagine that there is some POV that is NPOV, and, of course, the POV that they defend is what they think is NPOV. But the only way to know what is truly NPOV is that practically every editor signs onto it and the only ones who don't are truly those who want the article to be a piece of propaganda. Most disagreements, in practice, don't involve one of those true "POV-pushers," but, rather, those who disagree where the sweet spot of neutrality is. Each POV faction tends to be more capable of detecting POV imbalance in the others, rather than in their own position, but this is where the work is: finding text that is truly not controversial, but that also is complete, interesting, and verifiable. "Not controversial" means that, if it involves controversy, that controversy is reported as such, opinions, as distinct from generally accepted facts, are attributed. Fringe opinion is not allowed to outbalance, say, scientific or expert general consensus. But if it is notable (which means, in practice, that there is sufficient independent, sufficiently reliable source for it) then it is not utterly excluded. Rather, for example, it's confined to a Controversies article, reported in summary style in the overall article, when the overall subject would become imbalanced by extensive coverage of a fringe view in it.

Editorial consensus is the standard, not the guidelines as such. More accurately, the guidelines are interpreted through editorial consensus. Those who try to enforce the guidelines without respecting the consensus are called "wikilawyers," and that is not a complimentary term. It often throws newcomers off, for they may think that they are enforcing, with their insistent edits, the rules, and the others are breaking them. It's an easy misunderstanding to fall into.

All of this is my own informed opinion. Quite a few might disagree with it. But you can judge for yourself, if you look around, and if you read some WP:Arbitration committee cases. --Abd (talk) 19:44, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. Lets work on things from here and hopefully with more editors involved things can be dealt with.

The issue with my spelling is that I learned speed writing 15 years ago a sort of lost my ability to spell which I never had much of to start with anyway. Never had an issue with it clinically.

--Doc James (talk) 20:39, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Looks like that plus, possibly, something else. Clinically, sure. Usually it's been fairly easy to figure out what you meant. The words are often homonyms, like patient and patient; the difference, of course, is in the plural patients and patience. But, Doc, you are editing an encyclopedia! Here is what I'd say you *must* do: carefully read what you write before you hit that Save Page button. Always use Preview. (You'll take fewer edits per session; one of the things you do that might irritate those who don't like your work -- and the rest of us as well -- is to use many edits to accomplish what could be done with one. -- this is a variation on the situation with missing edit summaries. It will help you and others, and, reading over an uncivil comment, or simply one which might be read that way, you'll have a chance to think, uh, is this really necessary? Will it make the situation better? Or am I just indulging my emotions? Or my impulses, which might be the same thing in disguise. I've certainly stuck my foot in my mouth a few times here. Got me blocked in August. The block wasn't really proper, that's another story, but the comments on which the block was based weren't necessary, and some thought would have led me to conclude that they weren't necessary, and that they were hazardous to my wikihealth. (I speculated on an obvious sock puppet suspicion, and it was misunderstood as an attack. The supposed target of the attack later concluded that the whole thing was a misunderstanding, the original warning administrator wrote that he wouldn't have said what he said, on reflection, it was, again, a misunderstanding, both of these admins are now very cooperative and helpful to me, and I haven't dealt with the blocking admin yet, nor another admin who was involved. If I attacked these people for what could easily be called their errors, what do you think would have happened? It's pretty easy to understand. I'd be history. Instead, I'm much better off than I was, politically. Everybody makes mistakes. The real issue here is what comes next. Misplaced Pages, in theory, does not punish, it only protects. In practice, yes, sometimes editors are punished, because administrators are human. But that isn't a stable condition, if anyone who understands the place becomes aware of it, the "punishment" will likely be lifted. (All Misplaced Pages can do as a sanction is to warn, to set special conditions for an editor, or to block, temporarily, indefinitely, or permanently. Past behavior is really only considered when there is reason to believe it will be repeated. Hence, whatever you did or said with Scuro that wasn't, shall we say, optimal, will be irrelevant, if any errors or violations of guidelines are recognized and there is some kind of turning from them. Hence the people who get seriously blocked for incivility, for example, will usually be those who claim it was justified. I.e., they'll do it again!

In other words, even if, somehow, the alleged incivility wasn't incivility, but legitimate criticism of editorial or administrative performance, or it was somehow justified, it is highly impolitic to argue this on behalf of oneself. I described this as attracting sharks. Because uncivil people usually justify it and defend themselves, by defending oneself, one resembles an uncivil person, and usually the truth is that there was some element of incivility present, for even legitimate criticism can be presented in a civil and inoffensive way, or in one which needlessly offends, hence self-defense is quite likely to sway neutral opinion away from you. Not to mention aggressive criticism or contempt, no matter how justified it might seem. See Meatball:DefendEachOther--Abd (talk) 21:45, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Just passing by. For the spelling problems, install Firefox and get the english dictionary complement. It will spellcheck all your comments. --Enric Naval (talk) 22:02, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Enric, he's not going to be helped by mere spellcheck, since usually he writes a word that will be in the dictionary, it's just the wrong word, like patience instead of patience, as in "I lost my patients," when he meant that he lost his temper, not his medical practice. He probably writes the word patient a lot! But thanks for visiting my Talk page. Any time. --Abd (talk) 22:12, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Vaoverland

I am giving thought to your comments. We are in sync on several aspects. I am very much for collaboration and respect, and both these editors have fallen far short of what I would hope to see. I don't know either of these editors, nor had past contact. I do not wish this to escalate or continue. Be assured, I have not suggested or encouraged Scuro in initiating a Rfc against Doc James nor vice versa. I agree with you inasmuch as I strongly suspect that a close look by the arb comm may result in some criticism of each of them. What I would like to see is an end to all the wasted energy and damage to Misplaced Pages that has gone into this squabbling. I would also like to see Doc James mature with Misplaced Pages and grow out of what I perceive as an WP editing style that would translate to an abrasive and arrogant "bedside manner" in his work setting. Perhaps (and I hope this is so), what I am seeing is his reaction to this particular conflict and not his normal pattern. In a medical setting, a professional would back away if possible, and let someone less emotionally motivated handle things. He could still take that step. I already urged Scuro to do so. Sadly, neither has, at least up to this point. Vaoverland (talk) 06:11, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm glad to see what you've written here. I suspect that we can resolve this; if both of them continue on their course, they will both likely be blocked, my opinion. If one of them stops and the other continues ... well, one being blocked is better than two. It seems to me that Scuro may have some level of confidence in you; while I made a suggestion to him that he back off, he's not very likely, because of our history, to pay much attention to that, he's more likely, I'd guess, to imagine that I'm taking advantage of the opportunity to get him. However, if we proceed carefully and cooperatively, which is what I expect will happen, I think this can all be resolved, I've seen Scuro back off before when he was advised by someone he trusted, and even end up cooperating with the editor he was fighting with. I also hope that Doc will listen. If you read what's above, you'll see my communication with him. Gotta go. --Abd (talk) 17:56, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm beginning to get a fuller picture of what happened. Doc James had a poor style of editing, not surprising, we often see this with experts in a field (or semi-experts, as any clinician would be) who are inexperienced as editors with Misplaced Pages behavioral guidelines and culture. You could see that, it stood out like a sore thumb. Scuro, however, is not a newcomer, and he's been in disputes with editors many times. The things that Doc James complains about are, at least to some degree, real. Doc James considered, at the start, that the ADHD articles were in poor shape, and he was correct, probably. They used to be in poor shape, and I saw attempts to fix them, and they were made difficult by Scuro. I've looked back at the article, and in many respects, they were better before he began working on them. (These judgments were made maybe six months ago, so they don't cover recent behavior, and it would be theoretically possible that Scuro has reformed his behavior, and my goal here is not to attack him, but to make more understandable Doc James' responses.) We had problems appear between Scuro and User:Clockback, who is Peter Hitchens, as well as with another clinician, a psychiatrist, User:Ss06470, to whom Scuro was quite uncivil.) I think that Doc James will be responsive, once he's had adequate opportunity to understand Misplaced Pages culture, and Scuro can be restrained; sincere advice from neutral parties has been effective with him in the past. He very easily takes offense when his editorial behavior is criticized, the themes of this dispute with Doc James are very familiar. I think it was a mistake on your part to certify the RfC, it was too soon to abandon efforts to mediate: and when I looked at the mediation itself, it seemed to me that it was Scuro who had abandoned it, not Doc James.

In any case, what may have been missing was an editor becoming involved who understood well where Doc James was coming from, without thereby falling into the trap of defending James' improper behavior. I've written that I understand his responses, but not that they should be condoned or tolerated. What I don't want to see, however, is an imbalanced result, say from the RfC. To my mind, this dispute is simply another example in a series of incidents, and we'd have to notice that one editor gets into these disputes rather readily, with a common theme being that he's being attacked.

I have more to write about the situation. It's becoming very understandable. I'll email you. --Abd (talk) 23:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

ADHD

Hey Abd

Many thanks for your comments and advice. Will take it to heart. You have given some glimmer of hope to this project which to tell you the truth I have considered giving up on a few time.

Will try to work on the spelling but I do not really use homonyms. Part of speed writing was that you spell everything the way it sounds. Which was just fine with me as I always had done it that way. :-) Who need three theirs/there/they're when one does just fine. Or three twos/toos/tos? Many languages only have one way to spell for each pronunciation.

The speed writing I am referring to is similar to Thomas Natural Shorthand. Yes I used to write notes like this. Learned it in high school. Not really useful at work as my lawyers do not like it. And by the way I do use firefox and it spell check.

Cheers --Doc James (talk) 18:57, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes. However, I'm sure you'll recognize, you can't write an encyclopedia that way; to be credible, your English must be standard. This is an English encyclopedia, not a Thomas Natural Shorthand encyclopedia! Politically, your habits with writing are quite damaging to your cause. While you might think that the content should matter (i.e, what you mean, which is generally decipherable from your writing), the fact is that the editorial community is human and will draw conclusions from your spelling errors. They *are* spelling errors, but of a kind that won't be caught by spell-check, at least an unsophisticated one that doesn't consider context. You *do* use homonyms; you pick one spelling of a particular phonemic pattern, such as patients for patience.

In theory, the project should be begging you and people like you to participate. But that is not the reality, for political reasons. The community expects you to meet its norms; Misplaced Pages is famous for being rough on experts. It will be fine if you will back off and not push, but suggest and allow and help. That pimply-faced teenager who reverts you with a caustic comment, laugh it off. Take your time, don't react. Simply discuss the text, explain if you have time, or let others fix it. See something that needs to be fixed and some editor is standing in the way? Well, ask for help. Ask someone like me, explain it to me, or, probably better, point to the existing discussion. I won't always be able to help, so identify a whole collection of editors who can serve in this way. Suddenly that stubborn editor is reverted by someone other than you. If you have to do it yourself, the time isn't ripe for that change. Done abusively, this is what's described in WP:TAGTEAM. But it's also how the place works (someone just automatically supporting you with reverts so you don't have to do it, that's a violation of WP:MEAT, and is not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that you identify experienced Wikipedians who have the ability to understand what you are trying to do, and who will be able to help negotiate it -- or tell you that you are full of shit. So to speak.

Misplaced Pages is not really a new kind of community, but it can seem so. Happens to be that communities like the Misplaced Pages editor community are part of my major general interest, how large communities of people can communicate and cooperate effectively and efficiently. Misplaced Pages has not yet developed the efficient part, and it will ultimately kill the project if this isn't addressed; and there are heavily conservative forces at work to prevent any change. (It might seem surprising that such a new project would have such an oligarchical problem, but it isn't really surprising to one who knows the history of similar organizations. It's generic.) The good news: the Misplaced Pages database, including all revisions, is under a license that allows its use elsewhere. If Misplaced Pages goes under because of failure to address the necessary issues, the work won't be lost. That, as well as a lot of other aspects, is part of the excellence of what's been done here. Have fun, remember that, but be careful about the "fun" of conflict, that kind is dangerous. You can certainly, with care, improve articles, but fixing major problems is much more difficult because of editors who WP:OWN the articles, you ran into one of these. Ironic, eh? Pot. Kettle. Black.

However, these editors are necessary. That's harder to see, sometimes. Indeed, realizing things like this has been part of my education: society is not ready to accept some of my ideas, and the resistance is necessary. I.e., people have filters that inhibit the acceptance of new ideas. Fortunately. Consider what happens when new ideas take over too quickly. Cambodia stands out, but there are many other examples. The same filters that protect against bad ideas, however, also inhibit good ones. So how to get around this? That's my life work, in fact, and it can't be explained in a few words. At least not yet! But I can say one thing: it takes patients. Er, patience. Same thing, I suppose. --Abd (talk) 19:32, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

ADHD Mediation

Hi Abd, Thank-you for your work mentoring JMH. I think it will make a huge difference, and the atmosphere is already starting to change. You were wondering about what went wrong with mediation, likely as part of figuring out where to go next. One of the big problems with the mediation was that, unfortunately, Xavexgoem was unavailable for a number of days during which there was on-going editing on the pages themselves, and discussion going off on all angles and I think it gave JMH, as a newbie, the impression that the wiki culture did not care about excess sarcasm or insults, and that he had a free hand to do whatever, so things deteriorated. By the time Xavexgoem got back there really was little point going any further as the atmosphere was poisoned and Xavexgoem suggested that mediation be stopped, Scuro waited for a response from JMH, but that response did not show much recognition of the issues and Scuro agreed to stop mediation. I think it is different now and it may be possible to redo informal mediation, particularly if there is more focus on one point at a time.--Vannin (talk) 04:30, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

If you read Xavexgoem's comment in the Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/jmh649, he saw no progress toward consensus from either party. It was not solely a reaction to Doc James. He refers in the RfC to "two owners," which is pretty accurate, though I'd not use "owner," myself, to refer to a newcomer; still, James had formed an opinion that the article was massively defective, rightly or otherwise, and was taking responsibility for fixing it, which is similar to ownership. What was missing from the early interventions here was an understanding of Scuro's long-term role with the articles on ADHD. He's aggressively and non-collaboratively shut out other editors with what he thinks are fringe views, for example, User:Clockback or User:Ss06470. The former is Peter Hitchens, a prominent newspaper columnist who has written critically (in published opinion pieces) of the ADHD diagnosis and its treatment, and who questions the existence of ADHD as a "disease," and the other is Dr. Simon Sobo, a psychiatrist in private practice, a published author on the topic, as I recall. Clockback barged in with a lot of edits and little understanding of Misplaced Pages guidelines and process; this is where I first intervened, to restrain Clockback, mostly, but also to interrupt Scuro's unwelcoming incivility and try to help Clockback accomplish what was legitimate about his purposes. I ended up being disliked by both parties, and most particularly by User:Miamomimi who was a supporter of Clockback. Scuro, though, apparently, really held onto this. Later, I intervened again in disputes between Scuro and Sobo; I was only able, though, to give a small amount of time, a condition which continues. Both Scuro and Miamomimi were solicited by User:Yellowbeard to comment in an RfA of mine, WP:Requests for adminship/Abd 2, Yellowbeard being a Single purpose account on a different topic whose political agenda was interrupted by my awareness and responses; eventually, he was blocked. I mention that here because it could give some perspective on the positions of Scuro , , , , , , , , and Miamomimi.

It might also be useful to look at the experience of Dr. Simon Sobo, visible in this series of edits to his Talk. This was a situation where I intervened, in some ways similarly to the situation with Doc James, who also shows up in this at the end. Dr. Sobo came to the point of a final warning from an admin, who later gives him an explanation.

The basic issue for Scuro, he returns to it again and again with me, as he has with others, is that I commented on his behavior (including some mention of apparent motive, though not as much as he seems to think). He thinks that illegitimate based on his interpretation of guidelines, mistaking general guidance for a universal rule. It may or may not be relevant that he frequently comments on the behavior of other editors. In the sequence of edits above, to my RfA, he makes a remarkable discovery: when, preparing evidence to present, he reread my comments and his responses, he found less personal attack than he had remembered, and he was "ashamed" of his own responses, acknowledging that it might even have been worse than my behavior. This was a remarkable realization and commendable admission, and, unfortunately, he didn't sustain it.) My intervention had, in fact, been directed at muting the effect and damage from his incivility, unwelcoming behavior, and frustrating intransigence toward other editors, which was quite likely to result in more incivility in response, edit warring, and the blocking of other editors if not Scuro. I was at least somewhat successful, nobody was blocked. But Dr. Sobo was effectively driven away. He seems to periodically back off and become more cooperative, and having other editors involved, especially those with experience whom he might also trust, will probably be quite helpful. So, again, Vannin, thanks. --Abd (talk) 18:17, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I have actually tracked the history of the article and was aware of the Clockback/Sobo stuff. I understand Scuro's style and can work with it. I do see the ownership on JMH's part. He really has made 30+ edits each day over repeated days, with, I might add, the bulk of edits being left alone, so in some ways has some right to feel some ownership. My own issues with JMH were quite separate from Scuro and I had tried to make many of the same suggestions to him that you have yourself, (such as drafting his own article, limiting the number of edits, listening to discussion) but he was not ready to listen at the time (and also probably classed everyone as non-professional. There has been an elitist element behind some of his, what Vaoverland has referred to as "bedside manner", but I do not discuss my own professional status on wiki, preferring to let my edits stand on their own merit, so he likely assumed that I had no status and was therefore not worth listening to). The difference is that he is now ready to listen to the mentors that have come in, so there is a wonderful window of opportunity here.--Vannin (talk) 19:49, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, you do remember, don't you, that Doc James requested your help, personally? Looking back, I see James trying to be cooperative, but not necessarily succeeding. The "elitism" is common among experts, no surprise. They are accustomed to knowing more than others. Sure, it's a problem, but we don't know how deep a problem it is until we confront it incisively. James may be an expert (on the clinician level, perhaps regarding ADHD), but not an expert on Misplaced Pages process, it is very easy to misunderstand what Misplaced Pages is about and how it works and experts commonly get it wrong. The problem with experts on Misplaced Pages is well-known: officially, so to speak, Misplaced Pages wants to attract experts but then, often, abuses them. We cannot directly control the abuse, but there are indirect means. I've not been involved with Wikiproject Medicine but such foci of activity can surely help, by connecting experienced users with experts in a field. Dr. Sobo was clearly an expert, I haven't reviewed Doc James article edits sufficiently to have an opinion on that with respect to him, I've simply assumed the best, if I'm wrong, it will come out in the wash. Clockback was an expert of a different kind: a public figure who writes on the topic in a major publication. His views, then, are notable in themselves. For COI reasons, he can't properly stick those views in the articles, but we can support him in that way.

And we need to get something clear about the ADHD articles. Controversy almost entirely belongs in the Controversy article. Then, with summary style, an overview of the controversies is brought back into the ADHD article, without citations. That text is very important; like a lead, it should represent a deep consensus among editors, and everything in it should be solidly verifiable, with detail and sources later in the article (with the lead) or in the subarticle (with a summary of such). I think that a lot of edit warring and conflict has resulted from not respecting this organization. The Controversies article gets cut up with demands for peer-reviewed reliable sources, when controversy is inherently about *opinion*, not scientific fact per se, and the ADHD article suffers from edit warring when editors try to put in what is obviously notable controversy. --Abd (talk) 20:32, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

The two sides

Hey Abd here are two articles which discuss both sides of the ADHD controversy.

http://www.theness.com/articles.asp?id=36

http://www.theness.com/articles.asp?id=35

By the way many thanks for the award and the fish :-) Doc James (talk) 06:00, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

No problem, I considered both an obligation. The fish was free. No expense was spared for the award. Glad you enjoyed both. --Abd (talk) 19:53, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you a lot

A little but not too late, thank you a lot for answering my question, maybe this is irrelevant and you will have to delete it but I needed to thank you.--White Hawk (talk) 06:37, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome. That claim that marijuana destroys neurons was current when I was young (early twenties, when I did smoke marijuana intensely -- i.e., every day, perhaps twice a day, for a month -- to see what would happen.) Lots of us believed it, actually, but didn't care. However, it seems to have been pure propaganda. As to the effects on me of that smoking, why, judge for yourself. I'm weird, many people would think, but I rather doubt that it has anything to do with that smoking. I was weird before, I did get weirder, for a while, but not in connection with smoking marijuana. I don't smoke anything, haven't since then, stopped all of it in fairly short order. Quite simply, beyond simply breaking some expectations, breaking out of some social norms, it had nothing further to offer, it and other drugs. Only recently did I discover that, really, I could benefit from certain drugs, specifically methylphenidate and bupropion, because of my ADHD and I consider self-medication, without supervision, to be dangerous, though that's relative. (If I couldn't afford to go to a doctor for a prescription, I might choose to self-medicate, as a lesser evil.) Most drug users and abusers are, in fact, self-medicating. We should make it easier for them to get good medical support, rather than punishing them for what they instinctively are doing to help themselves. (But we should not tolerate harm to others, that's different. Unfortunately, by making drugs illegal, we drive addicts and others toward criminality, causing great damage to others. With legal drugs, the damage of addiction is much more confined to addicts, and perhaps their families, as long as we keep impaired users from, say, driving. Same as with alcohol, actually. (Marijuana is, by experts, considered substantially less harmful than alcohol or tobacco, overall, and the continuance of marijuana prohibition has been a political issue rather than a medical one.)

(It's complicated, addiction is complicated; what I've said about drug addiction is generally true for all addiction and most compulsive behaviors, they serve a purpose for the addict, often not very well. Bill Clinton risked his entire career for what? A few moments of transient pleasure? Does that really make sense? A greedy person wouldn't do that. An addict would. What was his purpose? I don't know, but it is often avoidance of something, a discomfort with being with oneself, quite distinct from the natural and functional instinct to connect with other people, or, alternatively, he didn't have deep friends he could connect with on a level that he needed. Monica seemed to fill that need, but, of course, not well at all, she was a transient distraction, and a long-term nuisance or worse. That sequence of events quite possibly awarded us George W. Bush.)

Good luck. --Abd (talk) 20:18, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Happy Thanksgiving!

I just wanted to wish those Wikipedians who have been nice enough to give me a barnstar or smile at me, supportive enough to agree with me, etc., a Happy Thanksgiving! Sincerely, --Happy Thanksgiving! Sincerely, A Nobody 02:47, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi

Hi! Please note that I have filed a request for appeal here. Comments welcome! Best regards PHG (talk) 16:10, 29 November 2008 (UTC)