Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 00:21, 2 December 2008

• WP:ANI
• WP:AN/I

This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.

• Before posting:
  • Read these tips for dealing with incivility
  • If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page
  • Try dispute resolution
  • Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly.
• Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem
• Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight.

When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough.
You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so.

Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)

• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Allowing page movers to enable two-factor authentication
• Rewriting the guideline Misplaced Pages:Please do not bite the newcomers
• Should comments made using LLMs or chatbots be discounted or even removed?

Page Protection

The Requests for Page Protection page is backlogged. If an admin or two could take a look, it would be appericated. - NeutralHomer • Talk • November 27, 2008 @ 04:50

Unacceptable behaviour by User:Ceedjee

User:Ceedjee has been struggling, against a clear consensus view of many other editors, to remove the category Zionist terrorism from the article Irgun. He has demanded sources which explicitly use this phrase, insisting that those who refer to the Irgun as Zionist do not call it terrorist, while those who call it terrorist do not specify that this is "Zionist terrorism". In the course of this, he has made personal attacks on User:Peter cohen, . When I removed one such attack from my own talk page, he immediately reposted it.

When I provided several sources confirming the usage that he objected to,, he responded by refactoring my comments to make it appear that I was haranguing and shouting at him, and he mocked me, including questioning my ability to contribute to Misplaced Pages because I am the target of a notorious vandal and wikistalker. After I objected, and posted a warning notice about refactoring comments on his talk page, he sent me a hostile email, demanding that I withdraw the warning.

In response, he has just posted a comment on my talk page, including my name and email address, followed by a string of hostile comments -- all of which I have now removed. Since he is clearly aware of my harassment by the serial vandal, this posting is at best irresponsible, and could even be seen as encouraging the vandal to harass me by email.

I request that action is taken to restrain this editor's aggressive behaviour towards other editors. I would also like to know how I can have the disclosure of my email erased from the page history. RolandR (talk) 17:49, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Follow the instructions on WP:RFO to get rid of the email diff. Cosmic Latte (talk) 17:56, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I have just seen that he also, without explanation, posted my name and email on his own talk page, though he later removed this.RolandR (talk) 18:01, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Report that to oversight, as well. And it seems obvious to me that Ceedjee deserves a block for WP:OUTING. Cosmic Latte (talk) 18:06, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

(edit clash) Ah, I had been just thinking of putting together a case myself. Very briefly on the minor issue of the posts against me, Ceedjee keeps claiming that I haven't provided sourceds despite these posts of mine ,, , all of which are replies to his own posts on the article talk page and thus not buried somewhere he was unlikely to notice them. However, I can live with the posts that he makes against me which are rather unintersting compared with what the JIDF were saying.

It is when Ceedjee starts talking about Roland's stalker as part of a WP:POINT-scoring exercise that things get beyond the pale. As far as I know, User:Runtshit is the most eprsistent vandal on the English Misplaced Pages and is expected to reach 1000 identified sock accounts by the middle of next year. The vandal also appears to be active elsewhere on the web (see conversations I've had with Roland on his talk page). Yesterday, as soon as I noticed Ceedjee taunting Roland about Runtshit on the article talk page, I posted . However, today I noticed the additional material on Roland's talk page. And please note that if the email address is being WP:Oversighted that Ceedjee has also WP:OUTed Roland on his own talk page. --Peter cohen (talk) 18:28, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I have blocked Ceedjee (talk · contribs) for one week for outing RolandR. This is not something which should ever be allowed, especially on such a contentious subject where the threat of violence in real life is ever present. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 18:34, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I have reported this to oversight. But they have removed only two of the references, leaving more in page history. They have not responded to my follow-up request. And I have received another hostile email from Ceedjee, using his real name, and stating "you and your friends are just fanatics : http://www. (address hidden) poor little guys". Can anything be done to stop him? RolandR (talk) 19:24, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

It can take a while for them to reply, but make sure you link all the revisions for them to delete. IS he sending you emails from Misplaced Pages? Have they been sent since I blocked him? Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 19:40, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I have listed them all, twice. But not all have been deleted. The email was not sent through Misplaced Pages; it came from the same email address as emails I had earlier received through Misplaced Pages, but signed with a name, not Ceedjee. It was sent after he was blocked.RolandR (talk) 20:32, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

If Ceedjee "outed" RolandR, that certainly warrants some sort of sanction, however, Ceedjee in general is in my experience a very fairminded editor. If he has one weakness it's his lack of facility with English, which sometimes makes it difficult for people to understand what he is trying to say.

From what I've seen, Ceedjee has been trying to remove Irgun from the "Zionist terrorist" category because he thinks the terrorist categories are a breach of wp:terrorist, and I happen to agree with him. Whether his approach of trying to rectify the problem by removing articles from the categories in question is the best possible response is questionable, but I believe he has done it with the best motives and with wikipedia policy in mind. "Outing" is of course a serious breach of confidentiality, and if he has done this it would indicate to me an uncharacteristic lapse in judgement, but please let's not use this one apparent breach to mount an opportunistic attack on someone who as a general rule is a useful and productive editor. Gatoclass (talk) 13:02, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I have received a further long hostile email from Ceedjee, in which he describes me inter alia as "pathetic", "psychotic", suffering from "mental disease" "a terrorist, a manipulator and a liar", and also states that he has been in contact with User:Einsteindonut about my identity. This may not in itself be an offence against Misplaced Pages regulations; but it is unarguably uncalled for and unacceptable behaviour. And it would certainly undermine any argument of his that the Irgun shouls not be called terrorist. I'm not responding to any of his increasingly hysterical screeds; but I'm concerned about possible disruptive behaviour on his rreturn after the block ends. RolandR (talk) 13:53, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think we can take any action regarding alleged off-wiki attacks, because they are unproveable. I'm not sure what this alleged "outing" consisted of exactly, but Ceedjee seems to be implying on his talk page that your identity is available online outside Misplaced Pages, so he may have assumed that referring to it did not constitute a breach of confidentiality.

Regarding the content dispute, if I'd known things were getting this heated I would have followed up my posts on the Irgun talk page yesterday, but I think perhaps the best solution would be to start thinking of some alternative category names that do not breach wp:terrorist. Renaming some of the existing categories to conform better with policy should have a much greater chance of success than attempting to delete them, which has not achieved consensus up to now. Gatoclass (talk) 14:16, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I thought that Misplaced Pages sometimes acted on the basis of off-wiki activity. However, email is tricky evidence and could be liable to allegations of tampering. If Roland wanted to take this further, I would recommend getting the ISP to hold info as they would be a more independent source. Contact with ED is interesting because ED is now a long-term blocked, block-evading individual connected with an anti-Misplaced Pages attack site (though interestingly they haven't yet seen fit to withdraw Ceedjee from their lis of hated editors.). There's also the question of whether Ceedjee contacted ED or visa-versa. For all we know from what's been said here ED could have sent the JIDF's file on Roland to Ceedjee unsolicited.

With regard to the outing,it involved listing Roland's surname (which is well known) and an email address for him (which I certainly did not know.) These appeared on both Roland's and Ceedjee's pages. Obviously the oversight people were sufficiently concerned to act on it. However, what should also be noted as evidece that it is not altogether innocent is the post (linked above) where Ceedjee attacks Roland for being stalked by the Runtshit vandal. As for the content dispute, it is best discussed on the article talk page. --Peter cohen (talk) 16:25, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

And there was no possible legitimate reason for posting this; indeed, Ceedjee did not even offer one. He simply posted my name and email, in bold letters, on his talk page. Since, as Peter notes, he had previously taunted me for being stalked by a persistent vandal, I can only see this as encouragement to harass me by email. Though so far the only person doing this is Ceedjee himself. RolandR (talk) 16:44, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I have just recalled this earlier disagreement over validity of sources, in which Ceedjee accuses me of lying and appears to endorse the attacks on me, using them as an argument against my ability to edit. He then apologises for this, and for not assuming good faith. So his latest behaviour is not "an uncharacteristic lapse in judgement", but part of a pattern of personal attacks on editors he disagrees with -- see also his remarks about Peter noted above, his dispute with User:IronDuke and his attack on User:Eleland. This editor has difficulty in assuming good faith when anyone disagrees with him. RolandR (talk) 18:20, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

There are lots of editors who "have difficulty assuming good faith" on the I-P pages, practically everyone who edits these pages gets a little testy from time to time. What is apparent from even the handful of edits you provided however (which go back twelve months), is that Ceedjee gets into disputes with both camps, which I think is testimony to his independent viewpoint. He's still about the only editor on the I-P pages whom I have been unable to pigeonhole as either pro- or anti- Israeli/Palestinian, if you ask me the I-P pages could do with a few more such editors.

Having said that, he does appear to have stepped out of line on this occasion, but please let's not try to spin this into something more serious. Ceedjee is far from the typical I-P nationalist/POV warrior, he is usually a thoughtful contributor. Gatoclass (talk) 04:10, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

• For anyone who may be interested, I have raised an issue on the Village pump (policy) that deals with some of the problems at the core of this particular dispute . The issue is important to the credibility of Misplaced Pages, and I hope as many users as possible take a look, and comment. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 15:14, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Disruptive editing from Commodore Sloat

Commodore Sloat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

csloat has been engaging in disruptive editing on John McCain presidential campaign, 2008 since October 25, 2008. After a month of disruptive behavior, administrative intervention is required.

• His first edit was a POV contribution with a section title name that drew a conclusion that the source material did not. The first diff, and a later edit which sourced it. This initial contribution was also incorrectly placed in a section which lists events chronologically. The result of this edit was a long heated content dispute which was ultimately resolved satisfying everyone involved to some degree. In the interest of keeping this brief, I'll just say that csloat's contribution to the consensus was hardly constructive and he exercised no compromise whatsoever. Upon request, multiple specific incidents can be diffed.
• Repeatedly reverted deletion of libelous material only supported by biased media outlets. Here, here, and here. The content is no longer in the article. Again, contributions related to this on the talk page were hardly constructive.
• Insistence on using pejorative terms. Related to this first contribution, multiple sources have been found showing that Muslims find the term "jihadist" offensive, so general consensus on the talk page determined that "Islamic extremist" is a more appropriate term. His only "proof" is links on Amazon and pretentious comments. Yet again, no real constructive contribution to consensus. A few examples here, here, here, and here where he claimed the argument was "conceded" after a mere 20 hours of inactivity on the talk page.
• Removed factual information from World Opinion section, claiming that a source which drew no conclusion drew a conclusion. First collection of edits here, and more here where he also unilaterally restored the "jihadist" term. He then switched his tactic to tag abuse, applying a totally-disputed section tag which claims neutrality and factual accuracy are in dispute. After applying this tag abusively multiple times, and being warned that it was not the appropriate tag to apply, I finally warned him on his user page, indicating this would be his last warning. The warning was for a mention on the Vandalism noticeboard, but considering all of his incidents I think a disruptive editor report was more warranted. He shortly after removed the warning, calling the warning an abusive lie, (similarly to how he removed a 3RR warning calling it "incorrect" in the edit summary) and then reapply the inappropriate tag yet again -- at the same time restoring the pejorative "jihadist" term (he's done that a lot to say the least).

There's more evidence available if needed related to these incidents, but I think in this brief report there is enough to indicate disruptive behavior. --Amwestover (talk|contrib) 18:29, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

The above is all a content dispute. The dispute got disruptive because Amwestover refused to abide by typical Misplaced Pages policy which allows the use of such tags as the NPOV tag and the Totally-disputed tag to warn readers that the material they are about to read is disputed. I chose to employ the tag in order to avoid an ongoing edit war with Amwestover. The other editors on the page have been more reasonable and have tried to talk the issues out; Amwestover has instead chosen to personally attack me over and over, and to edit war over the tag. His removal of the tag is extremely unjustified - even if he feels that I am wrong in the content dispute, he should leave the tag up and attempt to resolve the dispute in talk, as I tried to do. Instead, he bullied me in talk and kept removing the tag without addressing my arguments on the talk page at all. Then he posted a phony warning on my talk page falsely accusing me of vandalism. I removed the warning and warned him on the article talk page to stop being disruptive. I see he has now escalated his disruption to the AN/I page in the hopes of getting me sanctioned. It is inappropriate to attempt to resolve a content dispute through sanctions.

If anyone would like a fuller explanation of the reason I felt that the term "jihadist" is appropriate on the page or the reason that the totally-disputed tag should stay on the page until the dispute is resolved, please consult the talk page (read the last sections in order rather than just the comments cherry-picked by Amwestover to make me look bad), but I don't feel that we should extend the content dispute over to AN/I so I will not address them here. Thanks. csloat (talk) 23:11, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Often a tactic that csloat used was diversionary arguments instead of addressing the actual issue, of which this is a fine example (and the subsection below, too). Since any content disputes that may have related to csloat's edits have been resolved, this is clearly about his disruptive editing behavior. --Amwestover (talk|contrib) 02:29, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

The content disputes have not been resolved; that was the point of the tag that you disruptively kept deleting, Amwestover. Again, I'm happy to discuss them, and we will no doubt continue discussing them on the talk page of the article, but the only relevant issue for AN/I is your disruptive behavior, as outlined below. csloat (talk) 02:34, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Disruptive editing from Amwestover

Amwestover (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I've created a subsection here so that Amwestover's userlinks are easily accessible to admins. I am certain that if this incident is investigated it will be Amwestover, not csloat, who is found to have been editing disruptively. My actions have been focused entirely on trying to add factual material to the article. There is some dispute about whether the material belongs in the article -- I have tried to address those disputes civilly and have bent over backwards to compromise. But I feel it is disruptive for Amwestover to continually portray basic content disputes as "libel" issues or as "vandalism." It is also disruptive for him to lie in warnings to my talk page, to constantly insult me on the article talk page (the NPA violations flow in nearly every post he makes to me), and to waste everyone's time with an AN/I report that is obviously lacking in any basis whatsoever. csloat (talk) 23:20, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Content dispute

You guys seem to be arguing over a quote from Washington Post. That's a content dispute. I don't see what admins could do here (besides locking the page, which they've already done). Both of you need to follow WP:DR. Did anyone consider drafting a WP:RfC on this issue? Pcap ping 19:11, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

The content dispute related to Islamic extremists supporting McCain on the internet was solved several weeks ago. All productive editors involved contributed to the consensus and the compromise which solved that content dispute. Speaking of which, csloat did not participate in the consensus or compromise which resolved this issue whatsoever, other than to voice his opposition to any suggestions which differed from his original edit. No, this report is about his disruptive editing habits on the article and talk pages, which goes beyond this particular issue. If you believe that more evidence is necessary, please let me know. --Amwestover (talk|contrib) 21:02, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

"libelous material only supported by biased media outlets" . The outlet would be MSNBC. Yeah, I find the material very marginal, so I would argue it should be removed per WP:UNDUE, but you'll have a hard time getting someone blocked for this. Pcap ping 21:25, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

As I said, this report is about disruptive editing rather than content. Disruptive editing can involve the content of someone's edits, so I mentioned that where I felt appropriate. Since I organized the report around the content issues, I'll make an effort to reorganize the report around each aspect of his behavior that is disruptive in order to make a stronger case. --Amwestover (talk|contrib) 22:14, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

csloat, you also need to be less aggressive in editing, and avoid edit warring over contentious material. I know it can take a long time to find consensus on politically charged articles, but insisting on every minor point will aggravate editors holding the opposite POV. If you guys cannot come to an agreement, try WP:3O first. This is all I'm going to say here; I put a {inuse} tag on an article, and I need to get back to it. Pcap ping 21:35, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't mind it taking a long time to reach consensus; my problem is with an editor falsely proclaiming consensus when there is none and then removing legitimate warning tags that are meant to help dispute resolution. I also get annoyed with an editor completely misrepresenting what is happening in the dispute when I have participated in good faith (and, contrary to his false statement above, I have attempted several compromises). I would be all for an RfC if that's what it takes to settle what should be extremely minor issues here. Anyway I hope this will encourage Amwestover to follow WP:DR rather than removing tags or filing phony AN/I reports. Have a good day. csloat (talk) 01:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Personal attack by Raven in Orbit (talk · contribs) (Pedophilia-related accusation)

User:Raven in Orbit has continued to be a hassle on the Ephebophilia article. In the past, he has tried to edit the article by‎ likening the term to pedophilia and going as far to dispute valid sources by saying that the sources have to exactly say that ephebophilia is not pedophilia, and then placing unneeded citation or POV tags on the article, despite the fact that the sources are clear in stating what ephebophilia is (seeing as it is not the same as the sexual attraction or preference to prepubescent children; pedophilia) and editors experienced on these two subjects (like myself) have told him this. He has tried to consistently alter the article so that ephebophilia comes across as a mental disorder, against other editors telling him that it is not and explaining to him how dangerous it is to allow people to be confused in thinking that a sexual attraction to a 17-year-old could possibly be the same thing as a sexual attraction to a 7-year-old... However, now that an editor, editor Legitimus, has edited the article so that it relays information that ephebophilia could be considered a mental disorder in very rare/specific instances (though is still not the same as pedophilia), Raven in Orbit still does not seem satisfied. While I was conversing with Legitimus about getting the article just right regarding this information, which included a little humor, Raven in Orbit proceeded to personally attack us. "LOL, yeah! You pedo POV-pushers are really having a good time here! LOL, cool! Glad you people like Misplaced Pages! Hehe, LOL!" he said.

This editor has basically called me a pedophile before, but this time I could not ignore the personal attack. I am tired/frustrated by these little rude quips/personal attacks he leaves in his edit summaries against me while editing this article, when what I am doing is making sure that this article stays factual and this subject stays clear from being confused with pedophilia. I did respond in a calm manner to this personal attack of Raven in Orbit's on the Ephebophilia talk page, once again explaining to him that these two subjects are not the same thing and telling him that I would be reporting this, but I have no doubt that he still does not quite grasp these two subjects and will most likely still be a problem when editing the Ephebophilia article. Some administrative assistance would be much appreciated here. Flyer22 (talk) 23:36, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I support Flyer's request. That talk page comment by Raven in Orbit (talk · contribs) is highly offensive to editors working on the topic. I don't know if a block is needed, but a clear and direct warning from an administrator would certainly be appropriate. I've had no interaction with User:Raven in Orbit, but in addition to his offensive talk page comment Flyer reported, I previously noticed him post at least one other personal attack against Flyer in an edit summary on that topic: , and another edit summary that was generally offensive to all editors working on that page (and to the experts cited in the article): "what pedos?". User:Raven in Orbit recently edit-warred (though not past 3RR), to insert the word "obsession" even though it is not supported by sources and every time he inserted that word it was reverted by at least 4 other editors - while not one other editor supported his use of the term: . His behavior in general is not extreme, but on this topic is bordering on disruptive. The insult he posted today was way over the line. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 00:28, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I gave him a more detailed warning here. I saw the discussion earlier but was just hoping someone would have used {{uw-bv}} instead. The warning templates are nice, but we can't just go on automatic here. Flyer, as a word of advice, you would have received a quicker response if you shortened your comment. A simple "Raven called me a pedo-POV pusher and only got a basic incivility warning" with a diff would have caught the eyes of a lot more admins. No amount of background would justify that comment nor is needed. Sometimes there truly is addition by subtraction. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:12, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I had not known that he received a minor warning about it before I reported him here. But, anyway, thanks Jack and Ricky. Flyer22 (talk) 23:59, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Please review block of JARIAN

I happened upon JARIAN (talk · contribs) via a report on AIV. This user was blocked for three days in February for disruption. He's returned twice since then--once in August and again in November. In that time he's created several articles that appear to be hoaxes (but to my mind, escape being G3'd by an eyelash) and inserted apparently false information into articles. He's also edit-warred by way of IP 97.89.6.61 (talk · contribs) and moved his talk page "because I am getting tired of complaints."

I decided he needed a month-long block to rethink his behavior--the only reason I didn't indef him was because, as mentioned above, those articles he created don't appear to be blatant hoaxes. Please review. Blueboy96 03:38, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I've stretched the block out to indefinite, because he's been creating very subtle hoax articles, and linking to them from multiple articles. He's engaged in an active campaign to damage the encyclopedia by introducing non-obvious false content. We have no need of this nonsense. It's going to take me a while to go and undo his contributions.

If there are any Checkusers about, it might be a good idea to have a look for other accounts in the sock drawer. This is obviously an experienced editor. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 05:32, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Arrgh...he's been tampering with MADtv season summaries to insert references to his imaginary actors. I've deleted the actors' articles, but the removal of the junk that he's added is slow going. He's edited both as JARIAN (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and as the IP 97.89.6.61 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log).

Any article-space entries that come up in the "what links here" for Tisha Williams, Kevin Barrymore, Eddie Mitchell, Jeremy Wayne, Judith Foxworth need to be cleaned up. What a twit. (I've cleaned up links to the struckthrough articles already.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 05:49, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Eddie Mitchell leads to a huge number of red-linked names at Home Improvement. They all look like nonsense since I can't seem to find them at IMDb (yes, I actually stopped once I saw Q2 listed there). Does this go any further? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:06, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, those were all added by JARIAN while logged out (diff), under his already-identified IP address. For now I'm going to say that I think we've got them all...but I've filed a Checkuser request to be sure: Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/JARIAN. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:33, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Fully endorse the ramping up to indef. A classic case of gaming the system, in my mind. Given TenofAllTrades' evidence, the results of that checkuser ought to me mighty interesting. Blueboy96 18:38, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

And he was operating at least one sleeper account as well. Good grief. Blueboy96 19:42, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

weird edit history possible massive article disruption.

Can someone take a look at the edit history of RichHandsmGuy (talk · contribs) - virtually all of his edits seems to be reverting to article versions (sometimes those versions are over a year old) of Rassmguy (talk · contribs). Sockpuppet? team editing? I'm going to take a look but some eyes would be helpful and maybe if it is disruptive - a block to prevent further damage. --Cameron Scott (talk) 12:06, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

OK clearly disruptive - virtually all of his edits revert article back at least six months and in every case seriously degrade the quality of the articles by reverting clean-up work, removing sources etc. The guy is a menace. --Cameron Scott (talk) 12:15, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Both accounts indef. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:26, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Great and as far as I can see the edits have been rolled back. --Cameron Scott (talk) 12:27, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

huh? claims that it's a bot account. --Cameron Scott (talk) 13:04, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

It may well be written to be somewhat automated. However, this particular task ("revert to the last version by me") would never be approved for a bot. In any case, an indef block seems reasonable for the time being. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:18, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

This edit looks suspicious, too. Why would another unrelated user make that edit? -- The Anome (talk) 13:24, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Now trying to get unblocked on the basis that it's a autoblock of a bot account. --Cameron Scott (talk) 13:31, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Rassmguy (talk · contribs) has posted two unblock requests at his talkpage - the first is on the basis of "I know nothing about this" - but what's odd is that he's posted a second on the basis that the first one was declined - but nobody has edited the page in-between his edits to decline the request? huh? --Cameron Scott (talk) 23:02, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

"Compromised by his 11 year old daughter who doesn't know any better." As compared with the average adult troll. That's an interesting twist on the "evil roommate" story. Baseball Bugs 23:55, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Proposed unblock of User:PaxEquilibrium

 Done Unblocked. Thatcher 16:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

PaxEquilibrium (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was indefinitely blocked in July as a result of Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/PravdaRuss, which I was responsible for as checkuser. He has been in contact with me since, and claims innocence. There is undoubtedly a sockpuppet user who has been persistently reverting and harassing Rjecina (talk · contribs). This person edits from a particular residential ISP and a university in a certain city. While investigating Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/PravdaRuss I found that PaxEquilibrium edited from the same university. However, the university only has two outward-facing IP addresses that are massively shared, and PaxEquilibrium only had 3 total edits from there. In addition, he posts from a different residential ISP in that city, not the same one as the harasser. He claims he is the victim of a Joe job (See the accounts PaxPaxicus, PaxVendetimus and ToxToxicus, for example). On review I think there is at least room for doubt, and Pax has been calm and polite in pursuing his unblock request. He has appealed to Arbcom but has not received an answer either way, possibly they are preoccupied. I propose unblocking. He can be monitored if necessary. (And Category:Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of PaxEquilibrium will have to be renamed to Category:Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of PaxPaxicus or something.) Thatcher 13:16, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd support an unblock. I always knew him as a decent contributor and was surprised when I heard he'd been indef'ed for sockpuppeting, something that just didn't seem like him. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:35, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I support this unblock. — Rlevse • Talk • 14:57, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I echo Rlevse, should be fine to give the user a new chance in the spirit of good faith. --Kanonkas :  Talk  17:19, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

For users which are not knowing this case I must say about my surprise with finding in Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/PravdaRuss, because I have never dreamed that Pax is behind this attacks. On other side this unblock demand for me is very funny and I am afraid that wiki community will became victim of this user joke.

We are having good faith but second time we are having claim that his account is victim of another user  !? For me is very hard to imagine that he is somebody victim because few of puppets in question are 2 years old accounts. Somebody has worked in silence 2 years only to block Pax (example 1 year old accounts User:Roramaster user:Roremaster). Has anybody noticed that after Pax blocking we are not having anymore problems with Belgrade IP ?

Second problem is that we are having 2 checkuser cases. First is PravdaRuss and second is behind accounts user:PPNjegos, user:NICrneGore, user:Anti-Note. He has been blocked because of puppetry in this second case (17 July) and banned because of PravdaRuss (30 July)

For me 3rd problems that for me it is not possible to agree with you Fut.Perf. that Pax is decent contributor. I will agree with you that he is decent in many articles but there is number in article where account Pax has been edit warring against all other users (articles Pagania, Podgorica Assembly and Creation of Yugoslavia).

Reason for creation of puppets: Pax style of work in articles which are very important in his thinking has been very simple: He will write POV versions with explanation that article is not finished and he will finish job in near future (Creation of Yugoslavia, Podgorica Assembly, Pagania). In my thinking Pax has started to create puppets after I have started to delete his POV versions . --Rjecina (talk) 20:58, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I have not writen about 1 small thing. In discussion with you Thatcher Pax has not spoken truth... Claim that he has not edited from Belgrade University (or has edited small number of times) is false. We are having many older Pax statement that he is editing from university in question. When he has first time "lost" his account Pax words has been "The IP adress that I use (174...) is not only used by me but by the entire Internet Computer Center of the Electro-technic University as well" (user page of user:HRE). Now he is saying I am rarely using university IP ? Are we on wiki so naive that we will believe his today words and not his earlier words ??--Rjecina (talk) 23:41, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I know what IPs he uses. The doubt arises because most of his recent edits (recent at the time of his last block) are from a particular residential ISP that is different from the residential ISP that is responsible for most of the harassment accounts. Clearly "PaxPaxicus" and PaxEquilibrium have access to the same University; that alone is not proof of anything as all edits to Misplaced Pages from that University come from two IPs. I feel that the use of different residential ISPs raises some doubt. It would be as if someone in New York City used both Time Warner Cable and Verizon DSL. It is not impossible, but it raises doubts. Thatcher 01:20, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

(Outdented) Like the others I support the unblock. Even if he was guilty before, giving him a chance to turn over a new leaf is always a good idea. And in this case, if there is any trouble Thatcher or another checkuser will know where to look.Bucketsofg 01:36, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I looked at the PravdaRuss checkuser case, Thatcher's comment and the evidence given above by Rjecina and it seems that the sock case is not at all persuasive. I support an unblock. If Pax resumes editing, it seems likely to heat up some of the Balkan debates but I see no policy ground to continue the block. Pax and Rjecina have conflicted on some articles like Creation of Yugoslavia and Podgorica Assembly, but Pax's total reverts appear to be few in number. If Thatcher talks to Pax any further, perhaps he could get him to list any alternate accounts he might have used in the past. EdJohnston (talk) 05:22, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I strongly support this unblock and can only repeat what has been stated above. I've known Pax as a level-headed, polite editor for quite some time now and have a really hard time believing he should have been a sockpuppeteer. —Nightstallion 09:51, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Gavin.collins

There has been a long, ongoing dispute regarding Dungeons & Dragons articles between User:Gavin.collins and the Dungeons & Dragons WikiProject (prominent members who have been involved in the dispute recently include User:BOZ, User:Drilnoth, User:Shadzar, and User:Webwarlock) for approximately the past 14 months.

Problems: The issue started because of Gavin.collins's tagging. He often tags articles with templates such as {{notability}}, {{context}}, {{in-universe}}, {{plot}}, {{nofootnotes}}, {{Primarysources}}, {{Original research}}, and {{unreferenced}}, typically adding multiple tags at once. Examples include (although there are many more, as seen in his contributions): , . Some members of the project have come to believe that he also does not read the articles he tags. For example, he made the following edits within a 1 minute period: , , , , , , , , , Gavin has stated that he reads articles and then tags them all at once. Some users have found this difficult to believe because he often applies almost identical tags to all articles (in the ten samples above, he added four tags to each, three of which were identical on all the articles) and because a quick look through his contributions shows that the tags are typically added at a fairly constant rate of one every few minutes any time that he is actively tagged, with only some larger clumps of successive edits like those listd).

Disagreements have revolved around which tags are appropriate, whether sources are reliable secondary sources, and whether uncited content is original research or simply unsourced. The primary focus of his edits over the span of the dispute seems to revolve around placing tags on D&D articles rather than attempting to help resolve the issues (with a secondary focus on discussion on Misplaced Pages policy and guideline talk pages relating to the same concerns he has on the articles he tags); as there are only a few active members of the Dungeons & Dragons WikiProject, the sheer volume of this tagging places an excessive burden on these few editors.

At this point, unfortunately, the high volume of tagging for a small group of editors to handle is only part of the problem. Gavin seems to be quick to accuse others of vandalism, Conflict of Interest, and of "hiding something", with little or no evidence. There have been large amounts of edit warring (visible on most D&D articles, including , ) and unproductive discussion, which oftentimes gets rather heated on both sides (evident by the following: , , and most of the archives at WT:D&D, most notably , , , and ). Attempts at reasonable discussion between Gavin and WikiProject members often result in no conclusion, compromise, or consensus, as Gavin seems to be resistant to any view but his own (example: ). He has also admitted that he knows little of RPGs, but that is probably due to the "poor quality" of the articles he's been looking at. An attempt at mediation seemed to pause the conflict rather than end it.

He also rarely, if ever, answers direct questions that he can't answer by citing a Misplaced Pages policy or guideline., .

Gavin's arguments have also spread beyond Dungeons & Dragons articles and to areas related to what he is arguing for, such as at WT:FICT (for examples, see the entire discussions that took place around the following edits: , , ) -Drilnoth (talk) 14:35, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Hey Drilnoth, if two people have tried (and failed) to resolve this with him (which I suspect may be the case), then WP:RFC is the place to log a request for comment. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, the only problem being that one has already been done. Granted, however, that discussion was before the RfM and his slight change of tactics. -Drilnoth (talk) 00:38, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

If this is the wrong place for this sort of thing, then we can basically copy the complaint into a new RFC/U. BOZ (talk) 01:24, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

It should also be noted that there have been many attempts at dispute resolution; most recently my own attempt at discussion here. But the members of the Dungeons & Dragons WikiProject have exhausted nearly every step of dispute resolution, starting with talk page discussions,. A third opinion was sought twice and giventwice. A request for comment was also opened, resulting in a 36-8 endorsement favoring the basis of the dispute. Lastly, a request for mediation was opened. We can open another RFC, but it has had little effect on his behavior, historically. ColorOfSuffering (talk) 01:49, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

About the only thing that seems to have changed as a result of the RFC/U was its main focus: deletion. He hasn't nominated an article in several months that I'm aware of; when at one point we were talking about a high volume of AFDs and PRODs, he hasn't seen fit to approach that avenue recently. However, as far as I can see, all of the other issues (presented as secondary) from the prior RFC/U remain. If we were to do another RFC/U, these issues would have to be presented as primary concerns, rather than secondary. I'd like to see what, if anything, can be resolved through this current avenue before bringing about another RFC/U. BOZ (talk) 01:57, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Do you think that another RFC, even with a different focus, would be the right course of action? With everything that's been tried (per COS), I personally don't think that an RFC would help very much at all. Based on the sheer amount of discussion done attempting to reach a consensus after the previous RFC that did practically nothing, I think that an ArbCom has to be the next step. Now believe me, I don't want to get involved in an ArbCom anymore than anyone else, but I think that this dispute needs to be resolved soon, and more discussion, RFCs, RFMs, 3rd opinions, etc., won't really help us get there.

Why do I think that it needs to be resolved soon? Well, Gavin hasn't really changed since he returned after the RFM, and things are getting worse. The discussion surrounding his edits have caused one user (User:Shadzar) to leave the WikiProject. The debates on particular articles has gotten longer and more heated by the day. Since he returned from the RFM, my experience on Misplaced Pages has gotten much worse, to the point where I'm not working on D&D articles as much due to the unpleasantness of working around him. -Drilnoth (talk) 02:24, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

If this AN/I resolves nothing, then an RFC/U is probably the right thing to do... but I have to share your pessimism about what it will achieve. If Gavin weren't so aggressive, I honestly couldn't be bothered with any of this. I agree that an ArbCom might be the only way to bring some sort of resolution, becuase you are right that no amount of discussion has dissuaded Gavin from his current course of action. I don't know what else to do and would appreciate some guidance. BOZ (talk) 03:08, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I've added a new section at WT:D&D regarding a possible RFC/U because, although I don't really think that it will change much, it really is the correct next step, going to ArbCom only if and when the RFC fails. -Drilnoth (talk) 03:33, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

• If any of you wish to discuss a particular article with me, I am open to discussion, which I feel is the most constructive process for both sides. However, using the Administrators' noticeboard to voice your dissatisfaction with me is I think a waste of admin time. --Gavin Collins (talk) 10:08, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

• We have, over and over again for 14+ months now. You have shown over and over again you have no interest in working with us unless we seek outside intervention. Frankly I am ready to leave en:Misplaced Pages all together unless something is done. Web Warlock (talk) 11:26, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

• In answer to Web Warlock, Role playing games and Dungeons & Dragons Wikiprojects are not "editorial walled gardens", so your threats to leave because you disagree with the views of another contributor is misplaced. As regards working in collaboration with other editors, I think I have contributed to the substantial improvement of the article Kender, so I think your criticism is actually groundless. --Gavin Collins (talk) 12:08, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

• No one but you has ever said that. And unless you were dragged into it you have yet to contribute anything other than cutting and pasting tags on a subject you know nothing about. Web Warlock (talk) 12:58, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

• I do not consider the projects to be in an "editorial walled garden". If you read my original post here, you can see that the problem now more is the simple unpleasantness of working around you because of your accusals of COI, bad faith, vandalism, etc., than your position on the notability of topics. The articles need work to establish notability; but you are going about it the wrong way. Looking for sources to articles before just tagging them would be a good start. -Drilnoth (talk) 13:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

• Gavin, prior to today I have never heard ANY WikiProject referred to as a "walled garden", editorial or otherwise. Now unless you can give proof to your accusations, I suggest you tone down your rhetoric. -Jéské Couriano 20:09, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

The following is not an accusation, just a note. When I first started becoming aware of the situation, it came across to me (at first just a third party) that Mr. Collins was wikicrusading. After more looking into it, it seems more 50/50. Some of the articles he tags are legit, but when you're tagging at such a high volume then of course some have to be right. I think Dan Willis is an example of bad tagging. How many other articles on wikipedia are barely 3 paragraphs and require 12 sources? Mr. Collins has repeatedly denied the consensus, and even went as far as to describe the photograph as promotional. I just want an outcome where A)the articles are being improved (which is the whole purpose of the wikiproject), B)no one on either side is wikicrusading, and C)That all users, Mr. Collins included, don't come across to future newcomers (such as I was) as being acting in bad faith. Not saying he is, I don't now think he is, but as a newcomer it appeared so. Hooper (talk) 17:28, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your position completely. I just started edit a little over a month ago, before Gavin.collins returned after the RFM ended, and when he started his tagging again and I found out about all of the older RFCs, RFMs, and extensive arguements over articles for no apparent reason, I assumed bad faith. Now, though, I think he's really trying to help -really trying- but just doesn't really know a better way to help out. -Drilnoth (talk) 17:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe he's acting in bad faith. However, his good-faith contributions are starting to cross the line into disruptive, and his general unresponsiveness to criticism isn't helping to defuse the situation. -Jéské Couriano 20:39, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Well put, Jeske. I couldn't have said that better myself. -Drilnoth (talk) 00:15, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Inappropriate attack page in user space

Nishidani (talk · contribs) was recently warned by an administrator about personal attacks aimed at User:Jaakobou. After he complained about the warning, three additional uninvolved editors, including 2 administrators, stepped in, and voiced concern over Nishandi's behavior in this matter. (, ,, ). Apparently displeased with this outcome, Nishandi has taken to using his personal space to write a critique of his critics, in what appears to be an attack page. Though presented in the form of a "ballad", his critique nevertheless continues to accuse User:Jaakobou of off-wiki canvassing, gaming the system and administrator shopping. I believe this is inappropriate use of user space, and have asked Nishandi to remove it but he's refused. NoCal100 (talk) 17:45, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Now that has left me slack-jawed. It might be grossly inappropriate etc etc etc but this has got to be the most impressive attack page I ever saw. Truly speechless. – iridescent 18:14, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Who ever saw a ballad made up of sonnets? The guy ought to be trout-slapped for playing fast and loose with our literary genres, surely. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:31, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Especially as his iambic pentameter is all over the place. I mean, honestly. Black Kite 18:37, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

• NoCal100, what is the interest of scrutinizing Nishidani's userspace that closely? You should see some of the crap I have in mine. Nishidani's "attack" is part of an archived usertalk page! If it had been a separate page called User:Nishidani/Ballad about bad people you might have had a point; but hidden away in an archive? Who would even have seen it, to be offended by it, if you hadn't brought it to this noticeboard? I'm not saying people can have whatever they want in their userspace, there certainly are limits; but please try to cultivate a higher degree of tolerance for things like a sarcastic sonnet cycle in a discreet corner. It seems Nishidani feels stalked by you., Please walk away. (Incidentally, have you told him you've put the issue on ANI, as courtesy requires?) Bishonen | talk 20:13, 30 November 2008 (UTC).

The interest is in keeping Misplaced Pages a place where editing is done in a collegial manner, vs. one where an editor may abuse user space to baselessly attack another editor, after being warned by 3 administrators about just such behaviour. I would have thought it obvious. NoCal100 (talk) 21:22, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

• Somebody once said insults in rhyming couplet should be cherished forever. I agree, you should at least try to cultivate a sense of humor. — CharlotteWebb 20:40, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

• User:Geogre said that. Bishonen | talk 22:43, 30 November 2008 (UTC).

Just so that I'm clear on this - it is ok to accuse another editor, without evidence, of off-wiki canvassing and forum shopping, so long as it is done with rhymes? NoCal100 (talk) 21:22, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Read Bish's reply. If having potentially abusive messages in your talk archive were a blocking offence, pretty much every user on this site would be blocked. If it weren't for your coming here, no-one would even have read it. – iridescent 21:35, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I've got to agree- frankly, I'd be proud to know someone had gone through the trouble to write a ballad to complain about me. Walk it off. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 22:45, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

• It looks like you still haven't informed Nishidani, NoCal100. Never mind, I've done it for you. Bishonen | talk 22:43, 30 November 2008 (UTC).

Wow - I wonder how many hours it took him to write that fine piece of attack literature. It ought to be preserved if only for the sake of art. Magog the Ogre (talk) 22:50, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Comment - I wished to stay neutral in this, but it appears that there is a gross misconception here which should be cleared up—this "ballad" is indeed archived, but it's from yesterday, so it's kind of fresh. I think Nishidani should just strike it out and the case should be closed. But somehow I have a feeling that this is now what will happen (*sigh*). -- Ynhockey 22:49, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Sure it's fresh. If it had been a month old, NoCal100 would presumably have taken it to ANI a month ago. Did anybody here suggest it wasn't fresh? It's still in a discreet corner of the userspace, that's the point. Bishonen | talk 23:31, 30 November 2008 (UTC).

So, It is ok to have an attack page, as long as it is under an Archivenn page in user space? NoCal100 (talk) 00:10, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I hope to someday piss off another editor to the point that they spend that amoung of time writing poetic odes to my rottenness. Awesome.GJC 23:36, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

✓ Done

I have to say, it seems a shame

That every misguided new-article creator

When warned for incorrect capitalization of proper names

Will cite Gladys j cortez, Misplaced Pages administrator – iridescent 00:15, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Rather than editors commenting about how they, personally, would be honored by such a tribute, I would like an administrator to answer my question, while specifically addressing WP:UP#NOT #9 and #10. Those guidleines seem fairly clear, and have no exceptions for rhyming content, or content filed under an Archivenn page, as far as I can see. NoCal100 (talk) 00:17, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

All right then, I'll bite.

• Have any of the editors being "attacked" complained about this?
• Has anyone other than yourself shown any sign of being upset by this?
• If it weren't for you reading the last post in a talk archive would anyone even know about this?
• Has a single person among all the people posting above, other than yourself, got any problem with this?
• Is this really the most incivil thing you've ever seen in userspace?
• Do you really think continuing to waste the time of the multiple administrators who don't see a problem here by continuing to flog what is obviously a dead horse is starting to cross the line from "raising a legitimate concern" to "refusing to take no for an answer"?

Seriously, let it go. – iridescent 00:24, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Please reread what I wrote, I would like an answer that specifically addresses WP:UP#NOT #9 and #10, which is a wikipedia content guideline. Whether or not this is the worst example of attack pages is irrelevant, and to answer your other rather pointless question, yes,Ynhockey has indicated that he thinks the offending remarks should be stricken. I am trying to get a straight answer to a content question - is it appropriate to have attack pages in user space, if they are in filed under an Archive? NoCal100 (talk) 00:27, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

The section of the userpage guideline WP:UP#NOT is titled "What may I not have on my user page?" (emphasis mine). An archived talk page is not the user's userpage. —Travis 00:37, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, even if you do want to argue that WP:UP applies to user talk archives, see at the top of WP:UP where it says "guideline, not policy"? See where it says "with the occasional exception"? Aside from yourself, every single person here has agreed that this is one of those occasional exceptions. If this is so offensive to those editors he has named, I'd like to think they're perfectly capable of complaining about it themselves. Incidentally, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS isn't even a guideline, but a personal essay by (now indefblocked, incidentally) User:VigilancePrime representing his own personal opinions. – iridescent 00:39, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

You are factually incorrect - I have already pointed out another editor who thinks the comments should be stricken. Be that as it may, I have taken this to Misplaced Pages talk:User page, to see if indeed, as you seem to think, WP:UP does not apply to archived pages. NoCal100 (talk) 00:44, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

• Take a look at the very first line of WP:ATTACK. It matters not whether anyone complains; they may not have seen it. It still creates a poisonous atmosphere wehich I suggest we could well do without. Throwing one's toys out of the pram is bad enough, but doing it loudly should not be tolerated. --Rodhullandemu 00:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I boringly agree with Rod, resist.
Destroy my wikienemies in rhyme?
Those whose offences make me wish to mock
Or to create exposes of their sins
I leave them to the fates they weave themselves
The bored frustration bringing Wiki sin
Appalling poetry a case in point
To every man comes, like the need for pie.

(i.e WP:NPA policy exists.) Sticky Parkin 01:08, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
While speech is somewhat free, it seems,
That does not liberate thy dreams
of insults and of criticisms
couched in whatever witticisms.

Here we live with one and another,
fighting vandals as did "your mother",
and although it may seem prosaic
we are still parts of one mosaic.

Cooperation is our avowéd aim,
but dissent isn't quite the same;
Whether you're interesting, or bland,
you must fit in, or be banned.
--Rodhullandemu 01:26, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

It's times like this that make me wish BJAODN was still around. :P bibliomaniac15 01:51, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

"An attack is an attack is an attack is an attack." -- Gert Rude Stein. (E.g. what purpose does the page serve?) IronDuke 03:12, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Although not necessarily the correct response, Nocal100 could have rejoined Nishidani's well-written poem with one of his own, filled with aesthetically pleasing but devastating, asteistic retorts to Nishidani's points, and then immediately archived it as well. If only more editor conflicts would evolve in such a manner. Cla68 (talk) 06:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Inquiring minds would like to know: How did you find this? By tracking Nishidani (talk · contribs)'s every move trying to catch him "out"? Or by meandering over to Misplaced Pages Review, spotting the topic, and then attacking? Either option doesn't make you look good :) Its discreet, its well written, QQ :) Jacina (talk) 09:22, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Have you read WP:AGF lately? The incident which is at the root of this whole thing was discussed on AN/I some weeks ago, with my participation and Nishandi's, and was not resolved to my satisfaction. I came to comment on it on Nishandi's Talk page a couple of weeks ago, and found it conspicuously empty, and noticed he had taken to immediately "archiving" every comment made there. Just so that I'm clear- your are of the opinion that attack pages are ok, so long as they are "well written", and placed in archived pages? And as you ponder that, those same inquiring minds would like to know how you know that this topic is being discussed on Misplaced Pages Review. NoCal100 (talk) 15:41, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

There once was a page on the Wiki
Whose location was a point very sticky
It was parked in the 'chives
Yet affecting the lives
Of editors both mad and not-picky

So the issue came down to one point
Does the archive allow one to annoint
One's writings 'gainst others
(including some mothers)
Or should they be purged from the joint.
►BMW◄ 12:20, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

As the fair damsel in distress,
Who Nishidani meant to protect,
I plead for the masses
To not bray like asses
Calling for his head

To prosecute a knight
for his fingers flight
over the keyboard at night
just does not seem right
particularly when his rhyme is much better than mine, or yours.Tiamut 13:05, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

While attacks shouldn't be condoned, I think Nish did go out of his way to make it discreet. A block isn't necessary I don't feel, just remind him to strike it out and remind him that though he took care to make it as pleasant and unobstrusive as possible, perhaps the same level of thought could be better put into moving forward. Certainly just because one attacks in a clever fashion it should no be totally ignored. --Narson ~ Talk • 14:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Who is asking for a block? All I want is the offending attacks struck out, or a clarification from the community that attack pages are ok if placed in archived pages. NoCal100 (talk) 15:41, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

In other words: let them remove any actual names (or shortforms/semblances thereof) and any Wikilinks to any actual editors, and the poem is fine - venting in its own way. If not, someone remove the entire page for them. ►BMW◄ 17:48, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I may lack the Wisdom of Solomon (I can't figure out why he had 700 wives and 300 concubines - why not one wife and 999 concubines or 999 wives and one concubine?) but I believe that I have provided a wise solution to this problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.182.2.26 (talk)

Yes, but it appears to have been reverted, as outsider edits to other users' talk page archives are likely frowned upon. Seems like much ado about thing, really; a creative venting of frustrations shouldn't be met with a reactionary "OMG NPA NPA!". If people around the project were a bit more relaxed and developed at least a slightly thicker skin, we'd probably have more time to, y'know, edit, with less time spent on...this. Tarc (talk) 19:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Whatever happened to WP:AGF No Cal ton? I see you have tucked away, a nice little user page of your own 86.128.120.234 (talk) 21:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

AGF rears its ugly head again. Account User:NoCal100 seems to have been created for the purpose of... well, not stalking obviously, but reverting the edits of User:Calton (note that ton is slang for 100). NoCal100's response to questions about that has varied from "AGF" to "go away". SHEFFIELDSTEEL 22:21, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Please assist with 81.155.47.47

New IP user refuses to go to talk page to discuss his POV edits and violation of 3RR. Several editors have issued warnings, especially for continued POV & 3RR edits at Polygamy. In my opinion, the user is unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages rules and, from his comments (and who he is, based on who he claims to be - I googled the name he stated), believes he is editing an academic or professional journal. He's now reached the maximum good faith we can allow and a gentle block would be in order, since he does not react to requests to take discussion to the talk page. Best, A Sniper (talk) 18:24, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Ireland page moves

1. More than a week ago, several different polls were opened on Ireland (disambiguation), Ireland and Republic of Ireland, and another at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(Ireland-related_articles)/Ireland_disambiguation_task_force. A veritable mess. The issue is a recurring one. Proponents wanted Republic of Ireland to be at Ireland (state) or a variation . Some of the proponents exhibit an Irish republican POV, which holds that Ireland being qualified by "Republic of" undermines its credibility as the only legitimate government in Ireland. Though support for the move was broader than this, it could therefore be taken into the orbit of Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/The_Troubles.
2. Today, these polls were closed by Tariqabjotu (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) .
3. Later today, Srnec (talk · contribs) reverted the move of Republic of Ireland to Ireland (state) (Ireland (island), which was salted by the new dab page Ireland )
4. Even later today, Matt Lewis (talk · contribs) copy-pasted Republic of Ireland into Ireland (state) (a redirect at that occasion), and vice-versa
5. Polaron (talk · contribs) reverted the copy and paste move

This could well be a big drama fest, but no heads have to roll just yet and no passions need be inflamed. To put it mildly, it is probably unlikely that review of this move close will lead to agreement that the moves had consensus, but in fairness the poll at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(Ireland-related_articles)/Ireland_disambiguation_task_force is more strongly in favour of the move than the article pages. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:03, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Tariqabjotu (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) is currently working on this. Please lets wait for him to comment before adding yet more voices to the cacophony. Rockpocket 20:09, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Not to mention that there's a separate thread open at AN. This needs exactly one cook to prevent broth spoilage. Oh, and "could well be a big drama fest" passed a long time ago. Essentially anything related to the word "Ireland" needs to be handled with care. — Gavia immer (talk) 20:19, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Anyone want to be the brave person to decide whether AN or ANI is the right place for this and so unify discussion? --Narson ~ Talk • 20:36, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Done it already. AN/I is really the appropriate place anyway. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:38, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

My response is User talk:Tariqabjotu#My response. No further comment at this point. -- tariqabjotu 20:46, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Unable to comment at User talk:Tariqabjotu#My response as the page is locked for IP's, but it strikes me that Tariqabjotu decision to keep his move is based on his opinion on the matter rather than consensus or the mountains of discussion that has taken place on the matter (much of which cited alternative reasons based on policy for keeping things as they were). --89.101.221.42 (talk) 20:51, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I will also add that it has a ring of making a faulty decision in good faith then justifying it retrospectively. --89.101.221.42 (talk) 20:57, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

No, it's based on the consensus that you all clearly can't decide. Hence, disambiguation. -- tariqabjotu 21:01, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

There was no consensus to move Ireland -> Ireland (island), so you moved Ireland -> Ireland (island)? You are clearly operating on a wholly different level, Tariqabjotu. --89.101.221.42 (talk) 21:52, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I can't say I'm very impressed with admin revert warring each other over a page move and then using protection powers to make their version stick. Whatever happened to Bold Revert Discuss? The admin closed and was bold in applying local consensus elsewhere onto a page, and was reverted. Shouldn't he then have engaged in discussion at the local where the dispute was? --Narson ~ Talk • 20:54, 30 November 2008 (UTC) (edit conflict)

Administrator Tariqabjotu's conduct is in good faith. He's done no wrong. GoodDay (talk) 20:57, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and when I say "then justifying it retrospectively" - I mean only that that kind of decision-making is fault prone. I don't meant any implication of bad faith on the part of Tariqabjotu, just one mistaken decision followed by a fault-prone one. Wheel warring is not pretty though. --89.101.221.42 (talk) 21:03, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

And in good faith I criticise the process he decided to use. I think applying local consensus to other locals is most definatly wrong GD. Even RM points you towards the talk page of an article for moves rather than gaining the consensus on the RM page. --Narson ~ Talk • 21:04, 30 November 2008 (UTC) (ec)

My move wasn't part of the Bold-Revert-Discuss cycle. It was based on an analysis of a move request discussion. Even with the evidence I missed initially, I am staying with my position, for reasons I explained in my response. The editor reverted the result of a move discussion – that's out of process. If (s)he disagrees with the discussion, this type of forum is the appropriate place to go. -- tariqabjotu 21:01, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm still looking for that move discussion at Talk:Ireland (state)... Srnec (talk) 21:05, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

It was discussed as recently as September. The decision was to NOT MOVE the page. --89.101.221.42 (talk) 21:12, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

There was no move discussion as I would view it, there was a small clique discussing this in a remote location. Can WP:F1 now conduct move requests on its talk page? Certainly consensus can be developed on those pages, but it must always go back to the talk page of the article in question to achieve consensus among all editors. By taking this behind doors, so to speak, we disenfranchise casual editors and IP editors who are unlikely to delve that many layers beyond the article talk page. --Narson ~ Talk • 21:08, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Is a clique like a cabal, but with disparate people in it? I would be happy with that. It has taken a stern will to battle at times. I set up the WP:IDTF taskforce on Ireland (being WP:bold), and boy the diffs I could show of the same-face aggressive opposition to it! But sense survived the AfD, and sense will service this. Misplaced Pages is a work in progress, and you simply cannot stop progress forever. --Matt Lewis (talk) 23:04, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I have no desire to stop progress, Matt. However, I do not view the method you used to be progress. I know it was an attempt to avoid the fight that have dogged the pages for years, but I don't think that small groups deciding consensus away from the pages is the answer. Especially when such a well thought out solution had been reached. You skipped a step that validates the decision you reached. --Narson ~ Talk • 00:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Tariqabjotu, would you be willing to expand a little on what you meant when you wrote, "Now, I'm done... you are welcome to open a WP:AN or WP:ANI post, but I'm sticking with this position regardless." Do you think that such a statement could be interpreted as meaning that you are unwilling to discuss mistakes you may have made in haste? Do you think that this is a constructive statement to make on an issue that you know to be contentious? --89.101.221.42 (talk) 21:08, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

"Do you think that such a statement could be interpreted as meaning that you are unwilling to discuss mistakes you may have made in haste?" Yes, it might be interpreted as that. Either way, in my response, I addressed the mistake many people pointed out. I explained why I think, despite that, this is still the best solution. You all are trying to drag me into this debate; I'm not falling for it. This is your debate; I am just here to look at the evidence and decide whether a move is warranted. I did that, so my job is done. You are free to launch an appeal. You are free to continue to bicker about this -- but without me. I have stated my position -- and that's it. Me repeating my reasoning interminably is unproductive. You repeating yours interminably is unproductive.

"Do you think that this is a constructive statement to make on an issue that you know to be contentious?" Yes. -- tariqabjotu 21:27, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

You say this is "our debate" and that we are trying to "drag you into it" but that you won't "fall for it" - yet your final decision was based on your opinion, not ours. Can you reconcile this contradiction?

(Incidentally, while not asking you for your opinion on it or on the issue itself, here was my contribution to this round of polling on the requested move, simply as an FYI. I think that there is more to policy on articles moves to consider than you give credit for in your response. Many of these were discussed in the pages and archives that you ignored.) --89.101.221.42 (talk) 21:41, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

You seem to acknowledge there are differing cases for each of the moves on your talk page. I'd suggest the solution is, at the very least, reverting Ireland (State) to Republic of Ireland and engaging for a local discussion on that page. Though as some people suggest this likely needs mediation or arbitration, I do think out of process move procedures do need to be reversed before such things can occur so as not to present a fait accompli. Though, I do hope that if a move procedure is begun on the talk page that a convincing consensus is reached. --Narson ~ Talk • 22:08, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

As a noninvolved party, I applaud Tariqabjotu for taking on an contentious issue and making a decision. No matter the decision, someone was going to be unhappy. Moving to a disambiguation, given the confusion that clearly exists, was only proper (if in doubt, disambiguate). Magog the Ogre (talk) 22:39, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

That was only half the move though. As Tariq himself says, there was no need to disambiguate RoI. There are also the issues to do with the process which wa pretty obviously a bit unorthodox. --Narson ~ Talk • 22:47, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

⬅ Appeal it and let it go to Arbcom, its bound to end up there anyway and the two factions will never reach agreement. It needs some objectivity. --Snowded TALK 22:40, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Or someone could file a RM on the RoI page and present a good argument, as been done elsewhere, and so acctually try to build consensus? It may end up at ArbCom if people continue to believe this assbackwards method of remote page moves is acctually valid, but lets give it a chance to acctually do it properly. Revert the move, put up a RM. --Narson ~ Talk • 10:48, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

The name of the state is Ireland, and I wanted primary use for the Ireland article to go to the sovereign state of Ireland, but unfortunately that did not happen. I strongly disagree with Narson. PurpleA (talk) 11:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Over what? You think this was a totally proper way to perform a move? --Narson ~ Talk • 12:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

An RfC on the recent multi-page move has been opened at Talk:Ireland#RfC: controversial multi-page move. --89.101.221.42 (talk) 12:00, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Compliments to Tariq for trying to sort this out. His solution must be the right one, becuase neither side is happy about it. IT looks like the best solution to me, removing either 'right' answer with one that gives access to the new reader to choose which 'Ireland' they are asking about. For the record, the 89.101 IP which is so abusive to Tariq (Above asking if he's stopped beating his wife yet) is from Ireland, and thus an obvious and plain POV pusher. ThuranX (talk) 12:45, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I cannot help replying to your remarks above. Many of the editors involved in this dispute are actually British, some like yourself are from Scotland. It would not be very civil of me to say that because you're from Scotland you are a POV-pusher. I think you should withdraw your last remarks. PurpleA (talk) 12:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) "For the record, the 89.101 IP ... is from Ireland, and thus an obvious and plain POV pusher." Thus? Gosh. Racism. Nice. At least you're good enough to put it on the record. --89.101.221.42 (talk) 12:59, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Alright, let's try this: The IP who refuses to register is from Ireland, which explains why he's such a loud POV Pusher. How's that? I haven't associated you with one view or another, and your own agitation makes it plain you're pushing a POV. As for the Brits and Scots involved, they're all POV pushers as well, here for nationalistic, jingoistic reasons, and not arguing on logical principles, but for political and emotional ones, as are the Irish POV pushers. I further note that neither of you addressed the substance of my post, which is that since no one's happy, he did the right thing. I'll assume that's because you know I'm right. I'm also interested in why the IP wont' register. Sock? Banned User? Someone with a Real Life conflict of interests here? ThuranX (talk) 21:28, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

So basically we're all POV pushers. Looks like AGF went out the window. --Cameron* 21:35, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I must say I am very disappointed by these moves, especially as it was retrospectively justified. I saw quite a discussion going on on the what is now Ireland (island) article that was well and truly ignored. In my eyes, this was not a case of being bold, but rather an abuse of administrative powers, in an attempt to get this thing over with. TheChrisD 13:09, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

The articles have been moved and protected despite consensus tending toward keeping the status quo. Bearing this in mind, we now need neutral admins to help us move forward. We are at your mercy! :) Please help! --Cameron* 15:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

With every respect to the admin involved, and remaining concious that I do not want to stray from "comment on actions, not editor", I am also more than a little dismayed by the manner in which this change occurred. Per Cameron and TheChrisD, it looks to me like the admin (in good faith) only wandered in to one part of a complex discussion, failed to notice that the issue was WAY more complex than the simple "straw poll" he happened to read, and took premature action as a result. Per TheChrisD, these actions were then retro-actively justified. It seems to me that, in the course of making these changes:

• Due consideration was not given to the points raised in other areas of the discussion page (namely that the task force remit was to confirm a set of guidelines around "how to refer to the 2 Irelands within articles". And was NOT just about article names. As such, a move in the absence of a guideline change was premature)
• Not enough time was taken to familiarise himself/herself with the issues involved before acting (Admin appears to have arrived on the taskforce project page - after several weeks of absence from the project - took a look at just ONE discussion (in a page with 5 or more open discussions), and acting based on inferred "consensus". Where no consensus existed.)
• Not enough notice was given to the parties involved in the task force before making the changes. (In fact, I can see no notice of intent of any kind. The least I would have expected was a one liner that said: "OK, looks like CON to me, here's what I'm going to do...")

Beyond the issues involved in the manner in which the move itself occured, I have serious reservations about the result. The new naming scheme addresses one of the issues raised by the taskforce, but does not represent a complete solution in terms of COMMONNAME (parens suffix have no standing in common use), DAB (Ireland (state) is not a clear label), ease of use (every single derived link will need a pipe), etc. At the VERY least, the "Ireland (state)" article should be moved back to "Republic of Ireland". Until a more complete set of guidelines can be agreed around when/where/how to use and link. Guliolopez (talk) 16:01, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

• Cannot agree to that alone. All articles must be moved back to what was the status quo only two days ago. My contention is that "Ireland" was a primary article. Only an article in that format could give the 9,000 years of history in Ireland, and it was universally accepted, contrary to what some editors have said, by almost all. Please return all the articles to what they were two days ago. Thank you. PurpleA (talk) 16:12, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

We cannot return all the articles because per WP:COMMONNAME "Ireland" must be a dab page, as for example "America" is. The closing Admin made what is a vital first step in making Ireland-related articles adhere to normal Wiki policies and conventions. The most damning example of the mess current and past editors have made in this area is that they have achieved a situation where the province of Northern Ireland is defined as a country on Wiki while the most common meaning of the word "Ireland" in modern usage, the country with the capital city Dublin, cannot be described as a country in its title article. This was an excellent, courageous and long-overdue application of WP:NPOV in this area. Sarah777 (talk) 21:34, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

btw, by my count this is now the tenth forum actively discussing this issue. It seems that the first thing anyone who thinks that there is forum-shopping going on does is to start the argument in a new place. Sarah777 (talk) 21:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

This 'multiple conversations in multiple locations' behavior is a serious problem. Centralized discussions help, fractured ones do not. By maintaining multiple conversations, the combatants in this, and other disagreements, effectively insulate themselves from outside adjudications. These conversations often start as Forks or forum shopping by a side which is currently losing. Because each side in turn loses ground, each side starts up the argument anew in new places, seeking more consensus for their side. They then justify their decision and consensus in whatever way they can - 'More people weighed in here, thus a bigger consensus', 'This group is specialized in this area and know it better than you', 'This was actually the right place to do this', 'this editor/admin has more authority to decide this', and so on. Each justification 'trumps' the other side in the combatants' minds. When an admin steps in they can point to the other discussions and say, you need to read this one, or that one, or many others, intimidating admins into not messing with it, or into reversing decisions. Each side can suddenly point to the other side for this effect as well: "You ignored these arguments we used on their fork to counter this idea or that one of yours..." and so it goes.

We had an admin come in on a large one of these fractured parts, evaluate it, and BOLDly solve it. He sliced the Gordian knot, halved the baby, and so on. Now the sword he swung is being hoist high over his head. The simple fact is that years of dancing and dodging on this are over, and both sides are angry they didn't get their way, and that the fight is over. These are two separate issues, and both need to be mentioned here. One, Neither side got its way. The article Ireland is now a disambig, not about the Island nor the Political entity, and both sides are incensed that their article didn't get the coveted place. Second,both sides see this argument as an extension of their political leanings, and to have this forum for their grievances removed feels like a personal insult to them. This, they need to man up, hold their sack, and get over (Women too). Tariqabjuto did something truly impressive here, and the community and admins should be backing him. Again I appluad his work here ,and hope for more of the same. ThuranX (talk) 21:44, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Agree 100%. My original position here was that Ireland meant, first and foremost, my country (aka RoI). After years of futile polls and argument I came to appreciate that there must be a compromise position. While I would still maintain the the average reader means the the sovereign country of Ireland when they search or use the term "Ireland" I have nonetheless come to realise that there will never be consensus around that solution:

• (1) Because Unionists in NI and people in Britain feel that calling the State simply "Ireland" implies that NI isn't on the island of Ireland in some sense or that it represents a nationalist claim on NI
• (2) Because nationalist Irish editors feel that applying the term to the 26 county sovereign state excludes nationalists from six counties from being as "Irish" as someone from Kerry and/or that it surrenders the idea of a politically United Ireland.

The victim in all of this is (a) WP:COMMONNAME, because "Ireland" is the near universally used and recognised term for the Southern state and (b) WP:NPOV because this fact is ignored or set aside for purely political reasons. (And also, some editors who have fought this move for 8 years have a vast amount of personal emotion wrapped up in maintaining the POV versions of the articles).

In the light of all this Ireland as a dab is, frankly, the only solution, though it is painful to both sides as the various arguments show. After this, much follow-up work is required, with doubtless much more debate. But, for now, the boil has finally been lanced; a prerequisite for healing to start. Sarah777 (talk) 22:09, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Since when did we get invaded by stereotypes? Could it not be that you oppose use of RoI because...you are Sarah and you, as an individual, chose to oppose it having made a decision based on your view of policy and guidelines? There are plenty of Brits on what is supposed to be the 'nationalist' side and Irish on the 'Unionist' side that perhaps we might have to accept we arn't dealing with stereotypes but fellow editors who are perfectly capable of coming to a rationale opinion based on policy and that we don't need admin to cut the 'Gordian knot' of consensus. I admire the taskforce for what they were doing, I just regret they let their patience fail at the last moment in welcoming this fait accompli --Narson ~ Talk • 22:21, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I wish you were part of the taskforce Narson- I've never seen you comment so much since over the last day! I do thing you are making too big a drama out of this, when so seldom dipping into it before. the admin merely made a per-policy decision anyone could have done - and nobody was 'robbed' of an ROI poll. Many 'opposers' to change were admitting that keeping the name 'Republic of Ireland' wasn't really the central issue - and we were all focusing on Ireland, where the real problem was. I know you've had half an eye on things - but I wonder if you know how much has been covered? I'm happy with what I see as a natural progression here, even if it wasn't the route I expected. The "Mixed Ireland" status-quo bunch have had their chance to progress their own often-hidden preferences (and some of them did have them), and believe me, they stonewalled and they block-voted to breaking point. --Matt Lewis (talk) 23:18, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Should I retort that you arn't making a big enough drama out of it? :) TBH last I saw of the taskforce it had stagnated. The RoI/Ireland (State) page remained on my watchlist from...god knows when I last contributed there. I am amazed at what you guys managed to achieve and hell, as I've said, the /result/ is likely what I would want. However the process? Meh. This was a cock up. and I realise it is no-one fault really. A mistake was made. However, the actions after that mistake are just trying to perpetuate the cock up. There needs to be a solution that is /just/. For something to be just, process must be followed. Then the issue can be buried. Until then, you just leave an open wound, for lack of a better term. I truly admire what you have achieved in forging a compromise with Sarah and how much she has worked to compromise with you. It is just in the haste to act a lot of the good in that process was negated. --Narson ~ Talk • 23:32, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

This is absurd

Two big points:

1. There was no need to change the status quo. The Republic of Ireland/Northern Ireland/Ireland compromise matched our other treatments of geographic areas with multiple governments (i.e., People's Republic of China/Republic of China/China/Taiwan). You're never going to make everybody happy with stuff like this, but it was a stable and accepted solution by the vast majority of the community.
2. The debate took place in a small corner of the projectspace, with little input from the community at large. This may perhaps be the most obscure corner of the encyclopedia to hold a discussion on a move as major as this. Re-arranging our Ireland article names forces the renaming of the entire categorization structure (a long and tedious process in and of itself) and the renaming of hundreds of subsidiary articles, as well as dozens of templates related to European and European Union topics. This is a huge huge debate. Rather than being held in the article talkpage (where it had been shot down back in September), it was shuffled off to a distant hidden corner of the WikiProject Ireland project space. When the discussion took place there, it became a hivemind scenario. While I have no doubt as to the good faith of many of the editors, Tariqabjotu included, this is unreasonable and unfair to the community. While I certainly sympathize with the need to provide for an orderly debate, this was a bit overboard and ultimately (and unintentionally) disenfranchising.

Therefore I urge the reversal of the moves and the opening of a new straw poll, advertised throughout the community noticeboards, in which this debate can be carried out fairly and equitably.--Hemlock Martinis (talk) 22:44, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

On point two sir, I doff my cap. You put my point eloquently. It is the process that appears to have gone awry here, despite I am sure good intentions. --Narson ~ Talk • 22:54, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

For an American administrator to write all that, clearly without researching anything!! I don't like the emotive language, and talk of "hivemind" either. I have not been part on an 'obscure corner' of anything thank you very much. Read WP:IDTF and do not risk offending decent people who have given their spare time to work for a better encyclopedia. I've spoken to several admin now who have voiced regret with the status who (from top dogs to lesser known ones), but who have said it is too difficult/dramatic/unapealling/etc/etc for them to try themselves to change so is best kept/worked on if possible. The 2-state forking issue simply grew out of hand in the end. I'm not having all the hard work, the article locks, endless debate and dramas etc 'glossed over' by an ingnorant bold-text intrusion like this. Really - I mean it. People have done nothing but work - and people on all sides accepted there should be some kind of change in the end. Thousands of messed-up meanings of Ireland in articles have now been put right. Ireland was never my own argument originally, but it stopped me from editing Wikpedia, and I am kind enough to do as much of the tidying-up work as I can. --Matt Lewis (talk) 23:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

That is starting to get a bit own-ish Matt. --Narson ~ Talk • 23:15, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I wrote it neither as an American nor as an administrator. I have nothing but good faith that you've been working hard towards solving this dispute, I merely take issue with the manner in which you carried it out. This discussion has widespread effects and implications and should not be left to a workgroup to hammer out in isolation. If you are confident that your conclusions as to what should happen with the Ireland articles are valid, then they should be subjected to the community as a whole for approval. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 23:18, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Simulation12

I know i'm not an admin, but here me out. You probally remember Simulation12, the so-called "kindergartner" who's recently been blocked for indefinitley. Ever since then, i've been keeping a close eye on PBS Kids aricles in case Riley tries something sneaky, like using a sock-puppet account. I noticed someone named "Marcellusb" who also edited children's articles. Most of his edits are unconstructive and/or vandalism. I know that it's a long shot, but i think he may be Riley. He keeps creating useless articles and creating pages that are just copied from pre-exsisting articles. I have no clue what to do, i've already contacted Gladys, so i'm hoping that someone may come up with a solution (AKA Block him).(Elbutler (talk) 21:28, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

• Marcellusb (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for the lazy. Protonk (talk) 21:38, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
• Can you post some diffs of Simulation12 (talk · contribs · page moves · current autoblocks · block log)'s edits that match this editors? Likewise, can you post some diffs of this user that are clear and obvious vandalism or deliberate errors (I'm looking through the contribs now). Protonk (talk) 21:46, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Hmm... i can't find anything similar (beside creating non-imporatant articles for Martha Speaks), i was so sure. But the edits are still disruptive. Elbutler (talk) 21:52, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Wait! this edit by Marcellubs, is similar to this edit by Simulation12. Elbutler (talk) 21:54, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

That strikes me as a pretty tenuous comparison. I'd AGF for now (Trust but verify, of course), it isn't outside the realm of possibility that there are two users who create disruptive/test pages on PBS entries. If you think of some more obviously disruptive edits then bring them here. If I'm missing something obvious (like a string of obvious vandalism), then feel free to say so. :) Protonk (talk) 22:53, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Just remembered a cool tool. Only one article has shared edits between the two users. May not be a sock. Or if it is, it may be a sock designed specifically to get around a ban, not edit identical articles. Protonk (talk) 23:17, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, Gladys has been asleep all day (I'm on vacation, I can do that!:) and just now logged on to edit. I'm not 100% sure this is Sim12; in fact, I'm not even 50% sure. There are some similarities, but more dissimilarities, IMHO. I'm definitely not dismissing ElB's concern, though; I say we watch and wait. (Though it does strain credulity that two separate editors would be creating trivial articles about "Martha Speaks"--if only because it's easily one of the crappiest PBS Kids' shows I've ever seen, nearly as crappy as "It's a Big Big World". Seriously, PBS has kinda lost the plot.)GJC 23:44, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Yet another sock of banned user User:PoliticianTexas

IP editor 98.23.200.247 (talk · contribs) has the same modus operandi as banned user PoliticianTexas (talk · contribs), to wit:

• fascination with New Mexico Activities Association, New Mexico politics, New Mexico high schools, New Mexico population figures (see long series of edits at New Mexico
• many edits required to get it right
• no edit summaries
• use of copyvio images e.g. Diane Denish
• deleting maintenance tags without actually making improvements: example

How about a block on this IP? Thanks. --Uncia (talk) 21:30, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

• Some reasonable overlap between this IP and the known socks of this user. I leave it up to an admin more familiar w/ this user to block this IP, but I'll nose around a little more. Protonk (talk) 23:14, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Blocked. I'm very familiar with this user. Tan | 39 00:27, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

User:ChildofMidnight repeatedly editing Glamour (disambiguation)

Hi, I'm having a problem with the Glamour (charm) article. The article in question is about a glamour which is an object or item that gives the wearer or owner the appearance of style or glamour, for example sunglasses or a Ferrari. It's an admittedly slightly archaic meaning of the word, but I have found a reliable source for that particular usage, which is quoted in the article; and there was no other article in the wikipedia that covered glamour in that sort of sense at all. Even so, the article is still very much only a stub.

Unfortunately, User:ChildofMidnight basically doesn't like that particular definition, and keeps rewriting the disambiguation page description so that it doesn't match the definition given in the article, essentially so it misrepresents the article, as well as making it overlapping with other definitions which are already linked from the disambiguation page and are covered in different articles.

I really don't want to get into an edit war, but I don't see how his edits are benefiting the wikipedia, and he just keeps making what I can only consider to be weird edits.

I could sort of understand it better if he was actually editing the article or even discussing it on the talk page there or whatever, but just repeatedly modifying the disamb page like this to misrepresent the article is kinda weirding me out.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 22:15, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I think you should try discussing this on Talk:Glamour (disambiguation) and User talk:ChildofMidnight before making such a big deal out of it. I've gone ahead and notified ChildofMidnight (talk · contribs) of this discussion - something you should have done yourself. Toddst1 (talk) 22:21, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

this is what is caled a content dispte and not reall y what WP:ANI is here for. Smith Jones (talk) 00:06, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Opinion needed--block, or no block?

A while back, I ran across this user when I reverted one of his edits and placed a warning on his talkpage. In response, I received this. Well, needless to say, that kind of thing immediately lands a user on my "watch this guy" list, and so when his edits pop up on my watchlist, by and large I try to check them out. As you'll see from his talkpage, he makes a lot of questionable edits , and doesn't seem overburdened with clue. I'm doing my damndest to AGF and not to call it vandalism, but I'm also out of ideas, in terms of how to make this kid a better editor. IMHO we're rapidly reaching the point of decision; do we let him keep making bad edits and follow him around with the broom and dustpan, or do we stop him from editing, since he doesn't seem to pick up advice? What do you all think? GJC 02:17, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

• If he's not a kid he's doing a good job of faking it. Protonk (talk) 03:15, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
• At 153 edits over the last month he isn't too much of trouble to clean up after (solely in terms of volume, of course). I'd say steer clear of the nuclear option for now. Protonk (talk) 03:17, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
  • If not a block, what would you recommend? I mean, 153 edits doesn't seem like a lot, unless you're the one who ends up fixing them...and he just happens to be hitting all the articles I have watchlisted. What do you suggest? GJC 11:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps a firmly-worded suggestion to seek a mentor? Of course we must be welcoming and accommodating to new users, but in return we do expect the gradual acquisition of Clue. If that's ignored, I'd suggest we have little choice but to encourage them to go and find another website to play on. EyeSerene 12:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

user:docartemis

There's a problem here that I'm not quite sure how to handle. docartemis (talk · contribs) has had an account since Oct 2007, and during that time has done nothing except add external links. Until today the total number of edits was 9, but just today there were 18 more edits, all adding links to podcasts hosted on http://docartemis.com. The website is owned by Ginger Campbell, M.D., and the podcasts actually appear relevant to the articles, so I don't think this needs to be handled harshly, at least at the start, but on the other hand I don't think the links can be allowed to stay. I bring this here because it seems delicate enough that it ought to be handled by an admin. user:JHunterJ has left a message on the editor's talk page concerning this, but I think something stronger needs to be done. Looie496 (talk) 03:42, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

See how he responds to the warning before considering him a spammer. Daniel Case (talk) 05:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I'd wait too, this may get handled editorially. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:59, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Pioneer Courthouse Square

This page has been full protected for 3 months in apparent contravention of Misplaced Pages standards. From the wikipedia protection policies: "Brief periods of full protection are used, rarely, when a large number of autoconfirmed accounts are used to make a sustained vandalism attack on an article." In this case it appears it is not autoconfirmed accounts editing the article. Also 3 months could hardly be considered "brief." Also note, (again from protection policies)"Persistent vandalism, or the possibility of such for high-trafficked articles does not usually provide a basis for full-protection." I hesitate to say this is an abuse of power, but it certainly appears to be an overreaction. This article should not be protected, or at the most -extreme should only be semi-protected. Yofton (talk) 20:49, 30 November 2008 (UTC) This template must be substituted.

The wikilawyering on our rules as to when and where protection is used is one thing. But the rules as written allow for variation. You can, and should, argue which changes you need to make on the talk page of the article; or even argue for unprotection - but not on the grounds that we're not obeying our own rules. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 21:06, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

If the new user has concerns, he is free to go to that article's talk page and propose some ideas. It's also worth pointing out that full protection was only applied on the 29th, due to persistent vandalism. Prior to that point it has largely been only semi-protected, and in fact wasn't protected at all for 11 days preceding, until the siege by various sockpuppets of User:Pioneercourthouse forced the issue. Baseball Bugs 04:05, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Endorse protection. The article is the target of continuous sockpuppet disruption.  Sandstein  07:10, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

The unbelievable persistence of the single-issue sockpuppets is what forces us into this result, in my opinion. Full protection is a desperate remedy, but it is needed in this case. If the article were not being so strongly attacked, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Inviting Yofton to join in discussion will probably have no useful result, just as with the prior warriors on this topic. Anyone who keeps trying to insert the same few sentences for two years probably feels very strongly, as shown by Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Pioneercourthouse, which names 30 sock accounts. But this person doesn't feel strongly enough to make a convincing argument on the article's Talk page, one that includes a proper reference. EdJohnston (talk) 21:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Protecton seems perfectly reasonable given the single-minded disruption of this person. As evidenced in the checkuser case linked above, semiprotection was circumvented by a few accounts to further disrupt this page. At this point, since this issue has been around for two years, it may be time to get the ISP involved... — Scientizzle 21:42, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Wow, I make a comment about how an article should get unprotected and I automatically get labeled a "sock" on my userpage? I really don't appreciate that. I wonder if the Pioneer Courthouse Square "vandal" got pi**ed after he was treated poorly by Misplaced Pages editors like I have been. Ever thought that might be driving his "vandalism?" I glanced through the discussion history on Pioneer Courthouse Square and it seems that at various times he/she has been willing to work with the community but they have treated him like s**t. Stop treating me poorly just because I suggested a page ought to be unprotected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yofton (talk • contribs) 23:48, December 1, 2008 This template must be substituted.

At least this one's not writing in fake broken English. It's kind of sad, though - I was hoping he could find a citation for his ongoing claim - that the homeless in the Square are mostly harmless, except for the occasional murderer. It was kind of funny the first time, but it gets old after awhile. He nees some new material. "A funny thing happened on the way to Pioneer Courthouse Square - I met a guy wearing one shoe. I asked him, 'Lose a shoe?' He answered, 'Nope. Found one.'" Baseball Bugs 00:13, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

User:My2sense2wikip Repeatedly Keeps Adding Extreme Fringe Conspiracy Theory Source to Seductive Poison

My2sense2wikip (talk · contribs)

This user continues to add the source John Judge at ratical.org, which espouses the extremist fringe theory that "Jonestown was an experiment, part of a 30-year program called MK-ULTRA, the CIA and military intelligence code name for mind control", in violation of WP:Reliable sources.

Despite explanations to him about Misplaced Pages policy on the matter, he has repeatedly added it several times, for example, here, here, here, here, and here.

He also promises to continue with this behavior, stating "These edits here won't end. I promise you."

In addition, he has repeatedly engaged in uncivil dialoge, such as "stop being a liar" and "There was government complicity with Jonestown and you clearly have an agenda to discredit The Black Hole of Guyana by condemming it as fringe."

Finally, the user admits that the reason he keeps adding information about relatives of the author Deborah Layton to the article for the book Seductive Poison (information not relevant to the book, but perhaps notable to the author's life) is that he thinks that the redirect of the author's name to the book article is some kind plot to drive book sales:

"If someone had an entry article about Deborah Layton that didin't automically relocate to this article I would include these entries there and to this article . . . Someone who made that automatic re-direct probably had an agenda to plug this book and divert people away from her personal background."

Also note that an IP user (69.22.221.46) made the exact same edit as My2sense2wikip just 27 minutes before his repeated additions here. Mosedschurte (talk) 04:50, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

• He's been blocked for edit warring. I want to take this moment to remind you strongly that you were edit warring as well. It takes two to tango, as it were, and you continued to revert his changes just as he continued to add them. He is blocked and you are not because he was inserting the material and he logged out to revert you as well. I haven't checked to see if the subject of the article relates to a living person and so would be excempt from WP:EW, but if it is not please remember that it is better to leave a page in the "wrong" version and seek some assistance than to continue to revert. Also, do not mark edits like his as vandalism. I know they are unconstructive and belligerent, but WP:VANDAL specifically notes that non-vandalism edits are not to be referred to as vandalism. Protonk (talk) 05:09, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I stopped after I realized I'd also reverted quite a few times and started this entry, which I should have done in the first place. Re the EW point, the article itself isn't on a living person, but it is also the target of a redirect of the author (Deborah Layton), who is still alive. That's actually what the addition was about. The one vandalism undo was an error I made clicking the wrong link (I clicked it while viewing the revision page instead of the usual undo from the history page).Mosedschurte (talk) 05:15, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

It's ok. You clearly didn't have ill intent and it would be unfair of me to block you as I did him. I just want you to be very cautious around this in the future. As for the vandalism thing, I understand. I have seen plenty of established users mark non vandalism edits as vandalism and I feel it is important to point it out when it happens. Hopefully this fixes the problem for a while. If you think you can find any socks this editor might have created (as it seems that IP is his and has been for some time), bring them to this thread or (preferably) to the suspected sock-puppet noticeboard and we can deal with them swiftly. Protonk (talk) 05:22, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Britain's Josef Fritzl

I boldly closed the AFD as a speedy keep (as a non-admin, obviously) due to the nomination being done by a banned editor. I closed it as such as I thought it was within WP:NAC as well as clearly within the speedy keep criteria to do so. As expected, one of the users to sided for deletion does not agree with the outcome (). My rationale (I am echoing from my talk page response) is that banned editors are not supposed to edit and are to be reverted on sight, which includes banned editors AFDing articles. I do not think ignoring the rules is wise here as it sets a bad example in regards to banned users; it doesn't matter how constructive their edits may happen to be. Banned users are not supposed to be editing in the first place, and it undermines the work and tough decisions made by those who have decided to ban those users.

If the consensus among admins feels that I was incorrect in the AFD closure, then feel free to revert the closure. MuZemike (talk) 07:49, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but I have to side with Ironholds here. From WP:SK:

In this case the consensus was developing despite the nominating user's status and should not be interfered with. After all, things created by banned users are not automatically deleted but may be kept if that is more useful to the project. Regards SoWhy 08:35, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Amazing for how many cases we actually have written policies. I agree with SoWhy (and thanks for digging up that policy bit.) Any objections if I just re-open the AfD? Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Do it! --Orange Mike | Talk 22:58, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

sock puppetry: user:Shato

There's an SSP report for user:Diva industries that has been sitting untouched for a few days. A new sock has just shown up, user:Shato, doing the same pattern of linkspam. I've added it to the report, but I bet nobody notices it. Can something be done to prevent the spam from accumulating? Is there a possibility of blacklisting http:skeptiko.com, the site that is repeatedly being spammed by this guy? Looie496 (talk) 07:50, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

User:Shato has apologised and asked for some advice on their talk page. I've left an explanation - TBH, looking at some of those External links sections I can see why they thought their link was appropriate too :P Hopefully that will be the end of the spamming, but please re-report if not. All the best, EyeSerene 12:01, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

User:Reenem

This user has been editing Yom Kippur War battles recently. He keeps adding unsourced material. I've given him a warning today over Valley of Tears, which he ignored and kept adding unsourced information into that article and others. His talk page (permanent link) shows that he was warned about this many times before, including a final warning in November, yet he continues. Looking through his contributions, it doesn't look like he ever used a ref, an edit summary, or an article's talk page. He also created a few new articles: Battle of the Sinai, Battle of Syria and Kilometer 101, three quasi-articles with no references (among other issues), which should probably be deleted or turned into redirects, but it seems to me like it would probably lead to a lame edit war. I believe admin intervention is due. Thanks in advance, Nudve (talk) 07:54, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I've redirected all three of those articles to Yom Kippur War - they were completely unsourced and better covered in the main article anyway. Regarding the editor, they do seem to have a case of IDHTitis, but I'm reluctant to block at this stage; despite the lack of sources no-one's yet accused them of making it all up. However, as a last chance to obtain some clue, I've suggested they find themselves a mentor, so the ball's in their court... EyeSerene 13:21, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

User:Philip Baird Shearer's unexplained talk page actions

Admin User:Philip Baird Shearer made a drastic edit of Talk:Roma people without explaining the reason for removing threads, WikiProject banners, etc. This may have been a failed archiving attempt, but, since it was not explained in an edit summary, I have felt obliged to revert it as suspected talk page vandalism. —Zalktis (talk) 08:38, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Clearly an error, explained minutes later. No time was given between posting on his talk page and coming running here. Please assume good faith in future. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 08:45, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Point taken. I have apologised on PBS's talk page. —Zalktis (talk) 08:51, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

a letter to editor to inform a potential conflict !

Dear Editor, Well I want to mention here a fact that i have noticed on Misplaced Pages n is disturbing a large population f the world. And the fact is that an article about Prophet MUHAMMAD ( PBUH) shows his pics as well which is extremely disturbing for all the muslim population in the world who visit and see this article in wikipedia. It is so as in our religion it is not appropriate to make a sketch of our Holy Prophet and even impersonification in any form is not allowed. I dont know if any one before me has discussed this fact here or not but i as a regular user of wikipedia and as a responsible citizen of this world requests you to kindly take out all small pictures n sketch which some one has posted on wikipedia and are representing ( and thats a mistake n offense for large number of muslim population and may create a big conflict ) Our Holy Prophet. I hope you will care for emotions and will respect our religious facts and will take it out so that we may continue using wikipedia once again with more ease. more to hear a good news soon from you. Thanks.

Kindest regards, Nuktaa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nuktaa (talk • contribs)

We have discussed this ad nauseam in various places on Misplaced Pages and have decided as a community that Misplaced Pages's no-censorship rule overrides all. We respectfully request that, if an article on Misplaced Pages offends somebody, they avoid visiting that page. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 09:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Nuktaa, please see Talk:Muhammad/FAQ as this may help. Pedro :  Chat  09:48, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

• I wonder how difficult it would be for our devs to provide an ignore list for the casual reader? One that pops up so you can add various names, places, whatever, so you can be sure that you will not be perturbed by accidentally reading about them... If possible, could they trail it with a test subject of Kenny Rogers being made unavailable for anyone in Cornwall? LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:58, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

User:90.201.74.222 vs wp:v/wp:blp.

Please block 90.201.74.222 from again putting back unsourced material in BLP Franklin Foer. VRTS ticket # 2008110610005047, user talk page warning, article talk page explanation, 222's threat to keep putting back unsourced material. -- Jeandré, 2008-12-01t12:09z

I've blocked the IP for 24 hours for edit-warring, and threatening to continue to do so; given their reverts you could also have taken this to WP:AN3. Page semi-protection may also be an option if this continues from other IP addresses (drop a note here or at WP:RFPP). EyeSerene 12:30, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/DinoKingFan11

Don't know what to do here, so I'll ping this here notice-board-thingamajig. The above user is on the very edge of disruption. They add information about "new" episodes for various cartoon articles. Most of the episodes are non-verifiable, and most (if not all) of their edits have been been reverted by numerous people. They're contributions are not constructive, nor are they being communicative (messages on the user talk page have been unanswered). Notification of the discussion has been placed. Yngvarr (t) (c) 14:45, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm. Isn't there a serial sockpuppeteer that does exactly this? Will have a dig in the archives. CIreland (talk) 15:51, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

You may be thinking of User:Squirepants101/Danny Daniel or Misplaced Pages:Long term abuse/Komodo lover. This case doesn't appear to match either of those very well though. —BradV 17:34, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Block evasion and harassment by User:Ragusino, part #2

This guy does not quit. Just to bring everyone up to speed, User:Ragusino got blocked 31 hours for 3RR violation by Tiptoety . He completely ignored the block and continued to edit and harass with his IP, which resulted in an extension to one week by EdJohnston , and again to one month . After that he immediately proceeded to harass me on my talkpage by posting his "detective nonsense" and reverting my edits (see history ). I gave him some time to give up on his own and, when that failed, reported him here on WP:AN/I . Jayron32 then semi-protected my talkpage for 24 hours which apparently does not deter this guy as he duly resumed his harassment once the short-term protection expired.
I feel a block extension would not be overkill, and may deter him from further harassment. As far as I'm concerned, I'm getting sick of his messages and I hope someone will find the time to semi-protect my talkpage, preferably for a longer period this time. --DIREKTOR 17:12, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Request to look at Monegasque

I would be appreciative if an admin can take a look at good faith editor Monegasque. Placing biographies into categories, the problem is that the user's basis is the surname of the article subject ONLY. That's it. If the person has a Welsh surname (or it sounds like it could have originally been Welsh), they are categorized as a Welsh American. If the person's surname is English, they become an English American. It doesn't matter if the person had one, single English descendant 200 years prior. The surname could have been a stage name or a married name - doesn't matter: they're an English American. This might seem innocent, but it is categorizing not based on fact or referencing - merely the subject's surname. Several folks have kindly mentioned similar observations on the user's talk page, but the user's tireless work continues. An admin's kind words of clarification would be very helpful because a ton of misinformation is being sprinkled around in Misplaced Pages daily. Best, A Sniper (talk) 17:24, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

User Srkris

Srkris (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The first block in the log on December 2006: "Repeated incivility and probable copyright violations after final warning. Persistent and frivolous charges of Wikistalking after administrator explanation that no Wikistalking has occurred." Srkris recently returned to editing and has recommenced with this problematic conduct in November 2008 - some examples specified below:

• Uncivil edit summaries:
  • (Mitsube - clueless reverts)
  • (Undid revision 254810541 - if you are clueless, stop !!!)
  • (Ever heard of linguistic periods? They merely represent stages of the development of languages. Stop your clueless reverts.)
  • (rv Dbachmann, you are clueless about extant Vedic vs historical vedic of the early vedic period.)
  • (ever heard of metrical and other restoration of vedic?)

• Uncivil commentary:
  • Suggesting a professor who is an editor is incompetent
  • You missed the wood for the trees, that's all I pointed out. Ultimately I got blocked for trying to protect referenced content from being removed. I have no wish to come between your edit wars. Have fun.
  • Dbachmann is also then your Voice of India worker, look he enlarged it first. Have fun reverting. The professional linguist User_talk:Dbachmann#Persistent_vandalism_of_Sanskrit_page said something in your talkpage, remember? Atleast I'm trying to contribute content with the good intent of improving the article (like I did to pronouns section, compounds section etc) much of which were repeatedly reverted in bad faith by you-know-who. Sudharsansn, the sociolinguistics professor, hasnt made a single meaningful contribution to any of the sanskrit-related language articles. Need I then go into the question of who is disruptive and who's not?
  • Diff of Srkris warned about incivility
  • It is obvious who has behavioural problems (perhaps from childhood). I had to indicate the consensus that was reached a long time back to not include images of current musicians because of POV concerns raised by the same editor then who makes these POV inclusions of images now. Talk of adamancy, hypocrisy and pure stupidity. Kindly dont edit unless you really understand what's written at WP:NPOV. Just because DKP is your favourite artiste or her grandmother doesnt merit an exception for wikipedia. - unsupported accusations.

• Frivolous charges against more than one user:

• Wikihounding me by editing on pages I've edited or created, where he has not edited before:

This is similar to the disruptive and uncivil behavior of User:Sarvagnya, who although was found not to be a sockpuppet, engages in similar unacceptable behavior. Srkris has also been disruptively warring on multiple articles, including Sanskrit (which he was blocked for recently) and related articles, as well as Carnatic music. He fails to comply with content guidelines or policies, or similarly on conduct issues.

It appears that the only purpose here for is to use this site as a battleground against multiple editors and persistently engage in misconduct. Whether this is through direct violations of policy, or POV pushing, it's simply not unhelpful for this project. This, and more, may also be evidenced in his contribution history.

I request that Srkris be banned from editing Misplaced Pages. Ncmvocalist (talk) 19:15, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

ec - You upload copyvios, somebody calls you on it and you want them banned. Sweet! Sarvagnya 19:48, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Fair use/copyvio images are an area of concern for me (I nominated some images Ncmvocalist had uploaded for deletion when he mentioned this issue to me) but the issue is still a serious one. Srkris has been persistently attacking Ncmvocalist and others despite warnings- poor image uploads from other editors have nothing to do with it. J Milburn (talk) 20:14, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Copy vivo violations does not mean that one has to violate civility to point them out.Taprobanus (talk) 21:09, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

ec- Maybe antagonism, team tagging and browbeating with uninformed reverts like the one mentioned here has something to do with it. Sarvagnya 20:26, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

In order to keep this discussion orderly, please raise copyright concerns in a different thread. I fail to see the relevance. Durova 20:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry.. but if you're happy to accept random links as evidence of "wikihounding", you might as well bear with me while I point out that there's been no wikihounding whatsoever in the three links Ncmvocalist has dumped above (under "wikihounding"). Unsubstantiated accusations are personal attacks and there's plenty of it in Ncmvocalist's message above. I have not yet heard what Srkris has to say, but I've heard what Ncm has had to say and I see quite a few holes in his accusations. Sarvagnya 20:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Please do address any shortcomings in the presentation. It would be more effective to do so, however, if you parse individual instances with diffs and explain the background, rather than making broad assertions. Durova 21:38, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Definitely a problem. The editor had very low activity from January 2007 until September 2008, and the behavior itself hasn't changed. Badly out of step with site standards, demonstrates no receptiveness to feedback. Durova 19:21, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The fact Srkris continues to attack other editors and behave in a completely inappropriate way, despite warning after warning, block after block suggests to me that he is not going to change his ways. J Milburn (talk) 19:38, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I will, of course, provide this link to a WQA report filed today by Srkris against Ncmvocalist. ►BMW◄ 19:42, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, please note the diff I used under frivolous charges. Cheers, Ncmvocalist (talk) 19:45, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

If you refer to the WQA report, please note that I suggested that this be brought to AN/I. To me it seemed clear looking at the evidence presented that this was an entirely frivolous report with no justification whatsoever and seemed to be abusing dispute resolution processes to make a point. Having taken the time to review this editors past history it would appear a number of editors and admins have tried to educate Srkris about wiki processes and the standards of behaviour expected. That seems to have failed, his contributions seem to be unnecessarily confrontational and disruptive. Justin talk 20:11, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I presented a very strong case to do the same just a few weeks ago, however, Srkris did get banned for something different. Right now, he is engaged in edit-warring with me in the Sanskrit page and has intimidated me several times. Srkris repeatedly talk about my profession, 1, 2 and 3 even this is something he inferred from my mention of that in another talk page. However, when I replied back and asked him to mind his own business and stay away from my profession, in a rightfully intimidated tone, he jumps on me by reporting at the board. Now he takes one extreme step further and in spite of having gotten me banned for 12 hours, looks at my routine and wants it extended further. Now those who have dealth with Srkris really know that he is here only to push the Aryan-Sanskrit supremacy agenda and out on a rampage against all Wiki processes and guidelines. He has no place in Misplaced Pages and his continue presence after six blocks is only a failure of the policies and guidelines. Now Srkris is going to come back here and start going on the frivolous offensive against write everyone and try to get Ncmvocalist or myself banned elsewhere by intimidation. That is also being recorded here. ] (] · ]) 20:50, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Btw, some of the comments that both of us, Ncmvocalist and I missed mentioning:

• This is for the Sociolinguistics professor - look who first..

• Sudharsansn the sociolinguistics professor

• The professional linguist said something in your talkpage

• Sudharsansn, the sociolinguistics professor, hasnt made a single meaningful contribution to any of the sanskrit-related language articles

Within a day, he has brought up my profession four times. Now this is extremely inappropriate. First, he peeped into another userpage to find about my mention of being a Sociolinguistics professor. Second, he brings it up in unrelated talk pages. Third, he brings it up to degrade one's profession and makes it look as though Misplaced Pages is a place only for people like him, who should actually find themselves a job at Voice of India, and not for academics. This is extremely uncivil. If any of you even remotely understand how irritating it is to have some disruptive, uncivil editor repeatedly talk about one's qualifications!! ] (] · ]) 21:10, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

From Talk:Sanskrit -

Wow! Wow. And you're complaining that he called you a "sociolinguistics professor"?! Wow and good luck. Sarvagnya 21:48, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Please turn down the heat and let's have a reasoned discussion. Durova 22:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the history through the talk pages, this seems to be the style. Goad editors into making a comment, then complaining of incivility, quoting the involved editor out of context. Look at the complete history Talk:Sanskrit#region. I speak as a completely uninvolved editor who stumbled on this when I noticed a post on wikiquette alerts. I've also noticed that Sarvagnya and Srkris seem to act as a tag team, I believe a check user has eliminated the possibility of sockpuppetry but there does seem to be a strong indication of off-wiki co-ordination. Justin talk 22:44, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Sarvagnya, I know that you are very concerned about your POV buddy Srkris without who you would feel very lonely in several edit wars involving the two of you pushing a blatant agenda, including your presence here backing him by trashing me. I have been blocked for 12 hours for making that comment, so I cannot be prosecuted for that again and again. The point, however, is the fact that Srkris is literally goading people into making comments and then, as Justin has suggested, quote them out of context and get them blocked so that he can unobstructedly continue with his usual thing. I had requested for a checkuser some time ago, between Sarvagnya and Srkris and apparently it got cleared. However, it becomes evidently clear that both of you are indeed working a tag-team, perhaps, offline coordination. It is time such disruptive coordinated POV behavior gets penalized. Otherwise, it is seriously pointless to have pages and pages of guidelines and policies. ] (] · ]) 23:35, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

So any two editors who disagree with you on a talk page are in cahoots? And may I point out to you that stuff like "POV buddies" is uncivil and borders on a personal attack. Cease and desist. This applies to Justin too. Sarvagnya 23:45, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest you 'cease and desist' templating the regulars with meaningless warnings for policies they havn't breached. Really, there is no point to it. --Narson ~ Talk • 00:05, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

"The Network" resumes

(If you're not aware of this issue, please see here for a recap)

Looks like I ticked off "The Network" pretty good. They're now attacking Tampa, Florida and letting me know that they're back. They've also attacked Benjamin Franklin Bridge, as they started to do before Thanksgiving. Have we found out if that picture can be locked yet? EaglesFanInTampa 21:58, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

How depressingly childish from people so privileged. Still, a week's semi-prot on the two articles will give the rich boys time to get bored and move on to urinating in public or whatever these fraternities do in this day and age. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 22:06, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

While I wholeheartedly agree they need to get a life, I don't think a week-long semi-protect will work (or else I would have gone to WP:RFP); just look at the histories of Camden, New Jersey and Cooper River (New Jersey) after their weeklong blocks were removed. I personally believe that the pic needs to be locked, like was discussed in the previous thread out here on ANI. I know that locking pics is usually reserved for penis and poop pics, but let's be real; what articles, other than the ones now, really need a pic of the 1906 San Fran earthquake? It's not a generic smiley, or even a bombed-out landscape in some unknown land. We know when and where it is, so shouldn't that be enough to restrict its insertion? EaglesFanInTampa 23:24, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

User:Threeafterthree

Threeafterthree (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is revert warring across perhaps a dozen and a half articles I created up to (but as of now not exceeding) WP:3RR on a style dispute. His edits (adding the adjective "American" to the first part of the first sentence in each bio, and in many cases deleting more specific statements of residency and scope of professional work), were in my opinion clumsy and degraded the articles. Giving him the benefit of doubt on the close cases I selectedly reverted about half of the edits. So far so good, that's how BRD/consens works.

Now the problem. Without discussion the editor simply reverted his changes back. I asked him to stop and self revert, he refused. I reverted some back myself with explanation. He reverted his changes back in, going up to WP:3RR (for example, here) claiming that because he is acting per the MOS my opinion does not count.

At my insistence he brought the issue up at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (biographies)#Nationality in the lede of bios. The discussion is new but there is already a difference of opinion on the subject of how to describe nationality, and a fairly strong sentiment that this is a case-by-case decision for editors of each article. Undaunted, and after many warnings by me to stop edit warring, he just expanded the edit war to other articles I edit, continuing that I need to get consensus to stop him. Check out these edits, which are occuring after the informal dispute resolution on the MOS talk page in full swing. So he's edit warring while participating in dispute resolution, not instead of dispute resolution. Plus, he's going down a list of my articles, and no others, so whatever his intentions it feels a lot like harassment and wikistalking.

We've dealt before with contentious editors who make mass article edits and edit war to enforce their positions, claiming that WP:CONSENSUS does not apply to them because they know the WP:TRUTH about the guideline. A quick check shows that this editor has been blocked three times in quick succession last month for edit warring against consensus on what he considers style matters, the most recent on Barack Obama - I hope he did not follow me from there.

I do not wish to edit war, but I need a way to engage in reasonable editing. You may or may not agree on the style edits but as a behavioral matter I'm completely boxed in. If I do nothing he makes bad edits to articles I've worked on. If I revert the worst of them he will edit war up to 3RR (I wonder if he would break 3RR but I'm not about to find out - that's what ANI and consensus are for). He won't wait for consensus or discussion. And he's doing it to all of the bio articles I've worked on.

Could someone please warn him to follow process rather than edit war and/or deal with him if he continues? Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 22:23, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Wow, that looks rather inappropriate. Tom has very obviously followed Wikidemon to a number of articles just to make a point. Grsz 23:14, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Is it possible to find out from him what it was, exactly, that provoked this methodical and most likely retaliatory behaviour? If it's — excuse me — tit for tat, addressing the tat might discourage the tit? — Writegeist (talk) 00:07, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Advertising image

An image is being repeatedly put into the article Cat litter. IMO it is advertising. I've now removed it three times and another editor has also removed it. CBHA (talk) 23:26, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I've reported the IP editor as a probable spambot. --GoodDamon 23:32, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Wow, I didn't know that was the world's greatest cat litter. I'll have to go out and get some now - and I don't even own a cat. (Or vice versa.) However, a more appropriate photo might be a cat litter box, with "before" and "after" photos, if you get my drift. That would dispell any questions the casual reader might have about the product. Baseball Bugs 23:39, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

That's too funny. World's greatest cat litter indeed. Some cat litters are just born great, some achieve greatness through hard effort, yet others have cat litter thrust upon them. Wikidemon (talk) 23:41, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Single-Purpose Accounts fighting each other

Dear Admins, if you did not ever edit in any article related to Scientology you should have a look at this. I am not interested in Scientology much but I got attacked instantly when adding a scholar reference to Dianetics some days ago. Now I am suspected to be the "sockpuppet" Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Highfructosecornsyrup of a banned editor by User:Cirt. Admin Cirt is busy adding a lot of content to scientology articles himself and IMHO seems to do this to discourage me to give my opinion. Something does not seem right here. Shrampes (talk) 00:21, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards