Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 17:26, 16 October 2005

See User talk:172/Talk block 1, User talk:172/Talk block 2, User talk:172/Talk block 3, User talk:172/Talk block 4, User talk:172/Talk block 5, User talk:172/Talk block 6, User:172/Talk block 7, User:172/Talk block 8, User talk:172/Talk block 9, User talk:172/Talk block 10, User talk:172/Talk block 11. User talk:172/Talk block 12, User talk:172/Talk block 13, User talk:172/Talk block 14 Talk:172/Talk block 15 for old talk.

• User:172/Anti-senility devise

Award

I was impressed by the amount of information you contributed to a number of articles on Brazilian History. Without your input, the Brazilian History Series would certainly not be nearly as informative as it is now. You deserved this award, of which, incidentally, you are the very first recipient. Congratulations. Regards, Redux 23:13, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your message on my talk page. Indeed Brazil doesn't get nearly enough attention, especially in the more "complex" topics. That's why I thought you were the perfect recipient for this award, since I rekoned that, without your input, there probably wouldn't even be a series on Brazilian History (most Brazilian contributors are focused in making only small changes, correcting little details, but they seldom give significative contributions to articles on topics such as history). As a matter of fact, I'm just getting around to making some interesting contributions to the Brazilian History Series, starting with the Empire of Brazil article. What you wrote is already quite comprehensive, but I just have a few passages that I feel will make the article even more clear and complete (although I'm not a graduated Historian, I've studied quite deeply the country's history – and I can say that quite a bit of the stuff you've added aren't even in High School textbooks, so even Brazilian teenagers, who are studying that at school would have something new to learn from the article). I'm just waiting for a slower weekend (and for the website to start functioning normally again) to do it. Once it's done, I'll drop you a note. I'd certainly welcome a peer review from you. Regards, Redux 03:21, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I also congratulate you. You truely earned it. I saw your message that you wanted to have some help on a few nations. I am sorting through the Russian stubs now, trying to add things and combine things. I just want to see what you wanted to do. Zscout370 04:14, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Global Warming

Need you to take a look at Global Warming there is a gang revert war going on that is removing dispute tags. Stirling Newberry 17:18, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 20:04, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)) Or, put another way, enough people disagree with your version that you can't keep it up there. But why should this require an admin to come in on your side?

Global Warming protected

I am not very happy about the version you protected. The new revert war in the article was started by User:Stirling Newberry at 14:30. SNs (Stirling Newberry) version was reverted by Silverback, WMC, VSmith and myself (Marco Krohn). Cortonin and SN reverted it to "their" version assisted by two new users "Munnin" and "WikiWarming".

Please check the user contributions by these two new users: "Munnin" edits are very rare and are strongly correlated with the edits of SN, meaning that Munnins edits appear always on pages SN edits too. "WikiWarming" has one(!) edit only. I find this at least highly dubious. I know that there is a possiblity by asking the developers to get a hint if two or more users were controlled by the same person. If it is possible for you please ask the developers about that since I believe that using fake accounts in this way, i.e. to circumvent 3RR, is in violation of the Misplaced Pages policy. For the given reasons I also ask you to protect the version by WMC and others and not the one of the first reverter SN.

Anyway thanks for stopping the revert war -- mkrohn 22:22, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hi Marco, it seems you haven't read about the wrong version. Thanks for stepping in, 172. Perhaps now that it's protected we can discuss the structuring of the article in a civilized and productive fashion, rather than simply edit warring it into oblivion. — Cortonin | Talk 23:04, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't quite agree with you that any version is the "right" version. One user started an edit war and it is likely that two sock puppets were involved in order to keep one version. In consequence this means that using multiple accounts give you an advantage in an edit war and at least a probability of 50% to enforce one version.

I cannot access the meta page you linked to at the moment, but I am sure that you are correct with what you are doing. Could you please answer my other request concerning the detection of sock puppets? Thanks, mkrohn

Please remove protection on Global warming it wasn't needed

Protection wasn't needed and you preserved version that resulted from the revert of a one edit user (possible sockpuppet).--Silverback 13:13, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 20:04, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)) I second this. I've listed it on Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection for unprotection.

ayuda

Hi, I don't know how busy you are at the moment, but if you have the time, could you cast your learn'd eye upon Alberto Fujimori? There are a couple of Fujimoristas, users Messhermit and HappyApple, who are attempting to whitewash various aspects of AF's presidency, notably that he didn't flee Peru but left to attend a conference (I kid you not!) as well as his role in the Japanese embassy hostage crisis. I have requested citations in support of various of Messhermit's allegations but none have been forthcoming and I feel I am being drawn into an edit war. Thanks, -- Viajero 16:11, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Never mind, situation under control. -- Viajero 03:19, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

1992 L.A. Riots

Heya, 172. Just curious - what motivated you to move this article to "1992 LA uprising"? My understaning is that it was not, technically, "a popular revolt against a constituted government". Just wondering. – ClockworkSoul 05:08, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• 172 - This change creates a number of double redirects that aren't automatically forwarded. For now, I'm changing this back, and then we can figure whether it needs to be changed. – ClockworkSoul 05:21, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Works for me, I suppose. It just seemed somewhat unconventional. I'll rollback my rollbacks now. – ClockworkSoul 05:24, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Three revert rule

You have been blocked for 24 hours under the three revert rule. If you wish to appeal please contact another administrator or the mailing list.Geni 20:57, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Take another look at the page history; there were only three reverts. The last edit was a modification of the text. You seem to have been fooled by Silverback. 172 23:30, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't think 172 should have unblocked himself. Even if the block was done in error. That was, in my opinion, very unprofessional. Samboy 02:05, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Global warming protect again?

Beg pardon. Could you please explain just what is going on here? The page was unlocked, and several editors were actively discussing needed modifications and possible changes. Stirling zips in and does a couple of reverts with no discussion on talk. This was resisted strenuously by those involved in the discussion and reverted with comments. Then SN pulls a fast one with an unannounced (not even a comment) revert and gets you to lock the page with his fav. version. You two would seem to be cooperating behind the scenes to the disservice of Misplaced Pages. Please explain. -Vsmith 03:52, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'd also like to draw your attention to the following, from Misplaced Pages:Protected page:

• This ability is only to be used in limited circumstances.
• Add {{protected}} (or {{vprotected}} for vandalism) to the top of the temporarily protected page and make mention of the protection in the edit summary.
• List pages you protect on Misplaced Pages:Protected page

Quite aside from the matter of the remarkable timing of your page-protection, I'd be nice if you at least followed the procedure. Alai 04:05, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

RfC

Hello there. I am recently being listed on RfC. Feel free to comment as you wish to. I regard it as a way out and to have the matter settled. Thanks. — Instantnood 20:47 Mar 1 2005 (UTC)

Thank you very much. :-D — Instantnood 21:51 Mar 1 2005 (UTC)

sigh

Misplaced Pages is increasingly a social club with no regard for professional expertise

I daresay that's a problem, but one that has been with us since the beginning. I have no comment on the legalistic side of this dispute (much less do I want to take sides), but I have understanding for your frustration (which may induce unwise courses of actions, sometimes) dab (ᛏ) 19:44, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is much worst than that. It is a pefect tool for misinformation campaigns like the creatonist one.--LexCorp 18:02, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What changes to wikipedia would make you a "more efficacious user"?

Evidently having sysop powers wasn't enough. If you are an expert as you say, then you don't need wikipedia to get published. Why not produce your own website so that it can be cited here like other sites with some authority are. That way you can give full reign to your authorial territorialism. If History of Russia is an example of your work, you need to come to terms with the Soviet Union's sordid past. Only mentioning the "reforms" of post-Stalin leaders without mentioning the continuing suppression, oppression and murder.--Silverback 15:17, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You decry a total disregard for expertise in this community. Yet you have shown exactly this attitude yourself on the GW page, where the only one with any formal expertise (at least, formally declared) is me (William M. Connolley 16:23, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)).

My question is that Misplaced Pages incourages experts, since there are some areas where certain insight is needed. If that is the case, when why do you decry it? Zscout370 16:29, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 16:41, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)) I would be happy if wiki encouraged experts, and I do indeed decry the "disencouragement". I've experienced it myself. But what I was trying to point out was 172's hypocrisy: he wants to be taken for an expert, but won't accept the same elsewhere. I've read, with interest, Larry Sangers stuff on this; and the responses to it. I can see the difficulties. But 172 needs to be consistent.

If that is the case, then how can someone be "declared" as an "expert" on a given topic? That could be endless talk all by itself. Zscout370 16:53, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 17:38, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)) An interesting discussion, but we're trespassing on 172's page. I'll continue on your talk.

Ah, well

I can't say much. I'm sorry to see you go. Loss of an editor like you contributes to a "tipping" point in Misplaced Pages, in which the encyclopedia's chances of becoming dependable in any contentious subject fades further from reality.

I especially can't argue with your points about the users who are interested mainly in the debates and the internecine warfare. It is especially bad when such policies as the 3RR become a nesting ground for folks watching edits so they can play Keystone Kop.

Yes, these things are part of any organization, but it's problematic when the institutions of social bureaucracy increase, but the means of improving the product decrease. This is not so different from any of a number of voluntary organizations where, whenever someone proposes a way of furthering the organization's purpose, the seconding of the motion is immediately followed by the chap who says "this is invalid because we are considering new business, and this is old business, since someone proposed a similar motion 14 months ago." Then someone else rises with a point of order, and others insist we must check the phases of the moon first to see if the Goddess smiles on the venture, but can't because it's cloudy and proposes we adjourn until a clear night. Then someone else says we can't adjourn because there is a matter of open business on the floor.

This is immediately followed by a rustling sound. It is 65 copies of Robert's Rules of Order being opened simultaneously.

I'm afraid Misplaced Pages is what it is. I don't think it's hopeless since it contains a lot of useful information on technical topics. But predicating one's pleasure in participation on progress toward perfection is a formula for misery. I hope you'll lurk and put in your two cents whenever the spirit moves you. Misplaced Pages has problems, but is not so hopeless that it can afford to lose an intelligent voice. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 18:36, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Your decision to quit

Totally understand you. To work on political issues in English Misplaced Pages is the horror itself. And to be an administrator in that area is the horror in square. I've gone through this just few weeks after I joined the Misplaced Pages, I think you remember that case. I was forced to concentrate on other topics, to preserve my nerves. But they surprisingly turned out to be much more calm and friendly to encyclopedical-style edits. It helped me a lot. May be this may help you too? Nevertheless Misplaced Pages takes a lot of time. May be I'll leave it or become less-frequent here too in the future. Best wishes. Cmapm 00:48, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Read the article on Kennan which seems to be mostly yours. As far as I can see good stuff. Sad you are leaving but guess one can get a bit fed up. As for Misplaced Pages I believe its like democracy - the worst there is, but the best we have.

And with time I believe there will be a more finely tuned system of adding credit to various contributors. And even though I can see the reasons for you leaving, I think the really important thing about Misplaced Pages is its reach (some 6 millions users and growing, 500 thousand+ pages etc...). And - best of all, we all know its not perfect - and will never be, so we are all sceptic when we read some stuff here.

Anyway - all the best to you and believe we see you back here soon...:-) Ulflarsen 18:36, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Farewell

Abe, 172, or whatever you would prefer to be called, I can't say I always agreed with you, but I will miss much of what you had to contribute. We all make mistakes now and then (I find they get more frequent, not less frequent, with time...a sad truth about me, if not the universe in general), and I think the areas you worked in here -- highly contentious even in the calmest of times -- put you in more tough positions than most of us. I'm sorry it went that way for you -- it doesn't serve as a blanket excuse for any mistakes you made, but I think it calls attention to the real problem of making NPOV a reality in your subject area. Perhaps when you look in on us in a year or two we'll have taken steps to resolve the problem: I hope to contribute something in that area, and if we succeed, I hope you'll consider coming back, not to watchdog articles (which always leads to trouble, alas, even for the best-intentioned) but to contribute to a serious scholarly endeavor worthy of expert knowledge like yours. Enjoy your retreat into real life, and may you find success there, Jwrosenzweig 00:54, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"Roads go ever ever on

Under cloud and under star

Yet feet that wandering have gone

Turn at last to home afar.

Eyes that fire and sword have seen

And horror in the halls of stone

Look at last on meadows green

And trees and hills they long have known."

—J.R.R. Tolkein, The Hobbit

Farewell, 172. Take as much time as you need on wikibreak. I, for one, will look forward to your return. Until then, I wish you well in your endeavors in the real world. Goodbye. --Neutrality 01:24, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)

As Cmapm said, undertaking admin responsibilities multiplies one's exposure to Wikstress. I edit a lot, but I've always wimped out on being an admin, for that reason. Perhaps you should consider coming back (after a rest) just to edit. Even if you leave the political hassling to other people, there's still plenty of useful work to be done. Not everyone here is part of the problem. Also, thanks for including me in your list of people you'll miss. You've made many valuable contributions, so your praise is meaningful. JamesMLane 19:09, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

172, I didn't interact with you that much, but I've seen you around enough to know that you were a valid contributor to the 'Pedia, and I'm sorry to see you go. I myself have also scaled back my Misplaced Pages editing, but I can understand leaving the project entirely. Misplaced Pages is what it is. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 20:17, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)

Well, if you're really gone, farewell. I shall carry on, and look to your return some day. john k 20:53, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I concur with what's been said above. I can understand your frustration with the 'pedia, it is certainly imperfect but I'm not sure what could be done to improve it. You are right, decisions do seem to be made on the basis of who has got the most friends, and who is part of a particular cabal.

Perhaps you should come up with some suggestions as to how it could be improved. As far as I can see you have been the victim of a politically motivated witchunt by certain users. I wish I could have been more help, but I am pretty useless at office politics.

I've seen you leave before, so perhaps you'll come back sometime?. Perhaps you could make some edits anonymously, and perhaps edit some completely uncontroversial subjects for a while, to get your blood pressure under control. Best Wishes G-Man 23:00, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'll echo most of what's been said above -- I'm sad to see you go, and a little flattered by my inclusion in the note on your user page. Your contributions are some of the best I've seen on Misplaced Pages. As with all work, I'm sure they sometimes reflect your own biases, consciously or not. But that's hardly reason for much of the venom directed towards you, some of it from editors who ought to look a little closer to home when it comes to NPOV. In any case, I hope you'll consider returning if the situation improves. RadicalSubversiv E 01:54, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sorry to see you go. Please consider changing your mind. I enjoyed your constructive contributions in Russia related articles a lot. Besides, not only I disagreed with some of your edits, I sometimes found your reactions a bit short-tempered. However, I understand a stress of being subject to ideologically motivated attacks, so I might have been as upset if I were you. But please reconsider and return to improving the articles. Some attackers are better left ignored. If they succeded in chasing you out, it is a loss for a Misplaced Pages and for the commnon good. Irpen 06:14, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)

I do not really know you as I am mostly active on the Dutch wikipedia ... but from all the work of you that I have seen coming by in the past year Misplaced Pages and therefore I will surely miss you. Waerth 07:03, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I haven't worked with you on Misplaced Pages but I've admired your contributions. I'm sad to see you go but understand why you're leaving. I share many of your frustrations with Misplaced Pages and I unfortunately view these frustrations as impossible to solve. Misplaced Pages is unfortunately "a social club with no regard for professional expertise," as you put it. Anyway, good luck in the future and I hope to see you back here someday. Aoi 11:17, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

172, thanks for your contributions, especially around africa. Wizzy 18:28, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)

ArbCom case opened

The case brought by Netoholic has been opened: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/172 2. - David Gerard 15:15, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Aargh!!! Don't leave!

This is truly a sad day :( one of our best contributors has left... please, if you ever check your messages give me an email. I'm sorry that it's come to the point where you have left this project... I've been trying to setup a baseline project where a revision of an article gets chosen as the most reliable "reference point" if you will. If you're interested, email me. If you have suggestions you want to make anonymously, let me know also. I'll try to incorporate them - if you want attribution I can do it, if you don't I can make it so that you aren't mentioned at all.

Lastly: thank you for your most valuable work on Misplaced Pages. You'll be sorely missed around here! - Ta bu shi da yu 00:02, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

your? email about my revert

Hi 172. I got a mail (I won't cut and paste here since it is private email) which claims to be from you asking for me to revert a change I made. Please confirm that and I'll try to do what you ask. I also emailed it, but I understand you aren't reading that, so I'm putting this request here as well.

Don't go

I too am sorry to hear that you have stopped contributing although I can understand why you, like many other good editors, have chosen to do so. Good luck in your future endeavours and I hope that you will find it worthwhile to rejoin the project at some time in the future. Cheers -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:30, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, what the fuck is this? Get your lazy commie ass back here! As your capitalist overlord, I demand it of you!.

Seriously though, come back soon. TDC 04:37, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)

On the other hand, take some time off and recalibrate. Honestly, the whole reason I came here, around a year ago, was because I have been kicked off or hard banned from nearly every board on earth. Yahoo, MikeMalloy, DU, Indymedia (and most of its affiliates), Alternet, MotherJones, CheCafe (the list oges on and on) but after coming to Wiki, I find myself in an environment I truly enjoy. No longer are my talents (if you consider provocation and torment a talent) going to waste. I feel that my contributions are no longer just a way for me to delight in my more sadistic pleasure but a way for me to tell the world everything I know about a circulating fluidized bed boiler. This really is a remarkable experiment, and for the life of me, I don’t ever see myself leaving. There are very few places on the web as dynamic and engaging as this. Sure, there have been times where I have been inactive or just way too busy, but like anything else you have developed a particular taste for, you always come back to it some day.

I sincerely hope you do as well. TDC 04:57, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)

172, I just wanted to say how greatly I value the truly mind-boggling amount of high-quality work you have provided the encyclopedia with. Like many have stated above, I wish this was evident to more editors (I think it is, though, at least for those who contribute substantive content as the comments above clearly illustrate). Very best wishes, El_C 21:42, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Bye

Bye, 172. As you already know, I came to similar conclusions about Misplaced Pages a while ago. Of course, Misplaced Pages is not the be-all, end-all of everything, there are green shoots amidst the ashes. I have more to say about that on my user page, which I hope you visit. Ruy Lopez 00:50, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You have to come back

D*mn you, people! Look what you did! You made one of our best leave Misplaced Pages for good... 172, whenever you feel right, come back. I don't know you personally, but I know you good enough from your articles on Russia. We just can't afford to let you go. Try to ignore those people who did you wrong and continue to contribute. KNewman 12:00, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

Gone?

And just when I was starting to learn why you acted the way you do. I didn't always agree with what you did, but hmph, you were always very tenacious. What a bother that you're going. :-( Kim Bruning 14:59, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Kim Bruning 14:59, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Kennan

172, we didn't always get along, but I must congratulate you on your article on George F. Kennan. It is brilliant, and I hope that you consider returning, so that you might bestow on wikipedia more articles of that caliber. Respectfully, Mackensen (talk) 00:00, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I just read the Kennan article you wrote. I'm envious. Well done! —thames 01:17, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Naturally, I'm enticed. Will read it soon! El_C 01:46, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Image:TrangBang.jpg Added to IFD

I added Image:TrangBang.jpg to IFD again. --Wgfinley 22:11, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You are the best Misplaced Pages contributor, in my view

Well (ironical smile :-)). Although, the reason is rather in myself, now I'm quiting. However, I'll not come back, due to that reason :-( Just wanted to let you know, that from the very first my login you were the most valuable Misplaced Pages's contributor for myself. My best wishes. Cmapm 23:19, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Kennan

I've decided to let you do as you please with the Kennan article. Originally, I was going to add this new Gaddis article to it but I decided that you're more qualified to do it than I am. If The New Republic requires a subscription for you to view the article, you can email me and I'll send you the full text.

I hope you enjoy the rest of your time at Misplaced Pages and/or your retirement from it.

Dave (talk) 20:48, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)

PS Should I add the relevant stuff from the Gaddis article to containment, or would you like to do it yourself?

Dictators

Of course I know what I'm doing. —Seselwa 05:51, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Go to Anarchopedia or Infoshop's Open Wiki

If you're through with Misplaced Pages, you can contribute articles to Anarchopedia or Infoshop's OpenWiki. Even Demopedia or dKosopedia.

One thing that would bring people I think is if the Great Soviet Encyclopedia was translated and put up on those sites. A translation with an open copyright. Too bad I don't know Russian! Ruy Lopez 06:52, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Goodbye from Piotrus

I am sorry to read you are dissapointed with Wiki. I still see this project as having great potential, and producing fairly NPOVed articles. I hope you will get over your dissapointment and come back - while we might have differed in opionions sometimes, I believe that in the end we always worked out a compromise that made our articles - like the PSWar - much better then in the beginning. In any cases - good luck in whatever you do. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 18:24, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Arbitration case - final decision

A decision has been reached in the arbitration case relating to you. You are requested to clarify this issue by stating whether you wish to continue as an admin of Misplaced Pages. If you do, then this case will be reopened and the evidence on both sides fully assessed. If you do not, then - as you previously requested - your admin abilities will be removed until such a time as you decide to return in that capacity. If you do not wish to reply to this question, then it will be assumed that you have chosen to leave the project and do not wish to keep your admin abilities. Please see Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/172 2#Final decision for further details and the full decision. -- sannse (talk) 23:01, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sure, I'm fine with remaining an admin, though it still does not seem any more likely that I will return as anything more than a very occasional editor, at least at the present stage of Misplaced Pages's development (without a formal system of review). If that means the case will be reopened, you guys are free to waste your own time on those dubious "charges." My own take on the process is that that my admin abilities should not be taken away; the case brought against me was total bullshit, and letting malicious users use arbitration to drive off legitimate contributors does not at all help the encyclopedia's progress. 172 13:14, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm pleased with your decision, 172, and welcome back! Indeed, let them reopen it, you and I both know you have nothing to hide. El_C 13:18, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, but I'm not returning. I'm just trying to get things settled on a couple of articles. Once that's done, it'll probably a while before I make another edit, though I'm considering writing a new Cold War article. 172 20:00, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

historians working on digital projects

I’m an historian working at the Center for History and New Media at George Mason University (http://chnm.gmu.edu/) and we are very interested in digital historical works, including people writing history on Misplaced Pages. We’d like to talk to people about their experiences working on articles in Misplaced Pages, in connection with a larger project on the history of the free and open source software movement. We thought your lengthy experience working on so many varied articles on Misplaced Pages would be particularly interesting. Would you be willing to talk with us about your involvement, either by phone, a/v chat, IM, or email? This could be as lengthy or brief a conversation as you wish.

Thank you for your consideration.

Joan Fragaszy jfragasz at gmu.edu

Trey Stone and Davenbelle

Hi! Trey Stone has Requested Arbitration with me:

• Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Trey Stone and Davenbelle
• Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Trey Stone and Davenbelle/Evidence
• Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Trey Stone and Davenbelle/Proposed decision

• There is also an open RfC on Trey Stone

One of my earlier encounters on Misplaced Pages has sought arbitration with me; thought you'd like a note. Hope you come back!

Sincerely, Davenbelle 01:46, May 14, 2005 (UTC)

Welcome back — at whatever level of involvement. — Davenbelle 18:11, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

Welcome Back

Just saw you revert the Cold War article, I figured I come by here and say hello.

As for the article itself, what parts of the article was deemed to be original research? What are some of the main objections of the article? Zscout370 (Sound Off) 13:08, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Good to see you editing, 172. ;-) I hope you're staying. SlimVirgin 20:06, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, but I'm not. I just happened to stop by a few days ago, and I'll leave again once I can get things settled on a couple of articles. 172 19:57, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

RfC etc

Hi, just noticed your restorations to Efraín Ríos Montt. Indeed, trey Stone is an enormous problem. I opened an RfC for him several weeks ago:

• Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Trey_Stone

He initiated an arbitration case shortly thereafter to which I have contributed evidence:

• Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Trey_Stone_and_Davenbelle/Evidence#Evidence_presented_by_User:Viajero

The ArbCom is currently voting on the matter:

• Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Trey Stone and Davenbelle/Proposed decision

See also the dicussion on the talk page, where some important issues are being raised about sources and sanctions:

• Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for arbitration/Trey Stone and Davenbelle/Proposed decision

I think this case is important because it will indicate whether Misplaced Pages will tolerate the sloppy, ill-informed scholarship of POV-driven editors.

-- Viajero | Talk 13:08, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I understand. The least I can do for you is try to keep Ríos Montt from "redevolving", if you know what I mean. ;) -- Viajero | Talk 13:30, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Arbitration - what happens next

Thank you for the reply above. As I'm sure you are aware, your admin abilities have already been removed because of your lack of response to the decision. As we stated in the decision, this was assumed to mean that you did not wish to retain your admin abilities. If you have now decided to return as an admin, then "I'm fine with remaining an admin" is not enough.

If you want your admin abilities back, then you need to make a clear statement of that and apply to the committee for the case to be reopened. Reopening the case will only be considered if you have responded fully to the allegations made on the evidence page of the last case. Your admin abilities will be restored at the closing of the case, unless the committee's decision includes their removal. We will do our best to hear the case as quickly as possible. -- sannse (talk) 11:35, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Dont you lot have anything better to do with your life. Such as, let me see, writing an encyclopedia perhaps?. Or even better, stop driving out sensible contributors with an anal retentive obsession with petty rules and self serving politically motivated "committees". And let the sensible people write an encylopedia, which is after all what we are surposed to be here for. How does that sound? G-Man 20:09, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Well said G-Man. Luckily writing an encyclopaedia does not depend on a bunch of wannabe lawyers - the rest of us are just getting on with the tasks at hand :) Dan100 11:04, May 31, 2005 (UTC)

Heh. You're making up the rules as you go, I can tell. And it'll work. I'm not going to waste so much time on that bullshit case to get you to review it, even though you and the other members ought to, if you care anything about serving legitimate contributors. 172 19:55, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

ack

The detective agency? Boys and their toys.

Please check one thing before you go: slight discrepancy over 2003 election in Guatemala. Did Supreme Court first approve, later reject candidacy of RM? Inconsistency b/w text that was in intro and that in in final paragraphs. See my last edit. Pls correct if necessary. TIA. -- Viajero | Talk 20:15, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out. (I think its time for me to get a new prescription for my glasses.) No, there was a reversal because there is a separate Supreme Court and Constitutional Court. He was registered as a presidential candidate in mid-July by the FRG-packed Constitutional Court. In late July the Supreme Court challenged this decision. The Constitutional Court then promptly overturned the Supreme Court decision, and he was allowed to run. 172 21:23, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Ah, ok. Everything is clear now. Let's hope that this version stands for awhile. Take care, -- Viajero | Talk 22:11, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

HTML

Hi. Do you know what happened in this edit? ✏ OvenFresh² 22:35, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Montt Ríos

I have just archived the talk page and pressed upon SqueakBox to take a business-like attitude to any remaining differences. FWIW, I have not had any conflicts with this user before, but he is quite definitely an Einzelganger. I hope we can wrap this up without too much further fuss. -- Viajero | Talk 11:02, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Pigs on the wing is not Lir

There is no way that POTW is Lir. There is overwhelming evidence from their contribution areas that POTW is British whereas Lir is known to be American. FWIW, my own experience with POTW is that he is more argumentative than the average Wikipedian. Pcb21| Pete 12:04, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Kennan

I think I've fixed all the British- American conversions, sorry about that I had the spell check on the wrong variety of english :) --nixie 01:01, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

other wiki's

I see you've been de-opped in other move one would expect somewhere like Misplaced Pages. As I've said many times, I think you should consider helping build up a wiki like Anarchopedia or dKosopedia or Demopedia or even Infoshop's OpenWiki (when it is up). It's natural at this point of time for Misplaced Pages to be the main site, but specialist competitors like Sourcewatch are already superior in their own niches. Misplaced Pages may always have the best quantum mechanics articles, but specialist niche wiki's are sure to overshadow it. For myself, I write the article I want and post it to Anarchopedia, Infoshop's OpenWiki (when it's up), and sometimes Demopedia or dKosopedia depending on the topic. I also save a copy on my local computer. Misplaced Pages is a place where I'm usually fighting, but that's OK, since my real content is going elsewhere, I find the sisyphean efforts to get a page like Khmer Rouge normal less frustrating (the page has been in a revert war since 2003 and is currently locked). Anyhow, shoot me an e-mail or something. Many seem to come down with this syndrome of becoming frustrated with Misplaced Pages, not listening to others who say Misplaced Pages is hopeless and that they should concentrate positive, creative effort on other wiki's and fighting for here, and eventually swear off wiki's altogether. I'm confident an alternative wiki will come to pass, but it needs to reach critical mass, and I seem to be the only one trying to do that (although there are liberals doing a watered-down version of what I'm proposing, but I wouldn't post half my articles on Demopedia and dKosopedia - although many of yours would be acceptable in that land of liberal/soc-dem'ery). Anyhow send me an e-mail. Ruy Lopez 00:50, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Back?

I didn't know you were back? Welcome back  =Nichalp (Talk)= 06:01, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

Fidel Castro

As any President of any republic, I belive that Castro deserves a infobox that can show its political position in Cuba. Also, Castro's political influence in cuban politics has nothing to do with the introduccion of an Info-box in his article. I don't understand a real motive to prevent one from being created. Please, feel free to write at my talk page. Messhermit 22:18, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• You are right in that part: Castro's power comes from the Communist Party of Cuba. The position of President (and as the one of Prime Minister before) lack a real, democratic support. But even in Presidents with only ceremonial power, an info-box is placed. I will revert it, and if you want I can state that his real power derives from the Communist Party. Thanks for stating that part, any help or advice is welcome. Messhermit 22:47, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• • I'm currently doing those info-boxes for the presidents of Pakistan and Peru, since I realices that the presidents of other countries have this type of organization. Another one for Irak would't hurt no one I guess :P. Thanks for the Info, and I will put much more info in Castro's box, putting his position of General Secretary of the CCP. Messhermit 22:59, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Kapil

I'm not interested in his RfC. He will be banned in good time but will return under a new user name. It's the behaviour that is problematic, not the username. RfCs are an utter waste of time; RfArs ditto. I think you've done good work in discussing his problems with him and that's marginally less of a waste of time, because at least the calm discussion discourages other trolls from thinking that the articles in question are going to be easy marks. The way action against him will progress is exactly that: those who oppose him stay polite as far as they can, show that his stance is biased and allow him to step outside the norms of WP. In my way that is what I've done. I've explained that he must defend his placement of the tag with sources, and not just his own personal insistence that the article is biased (it's not perfect but it's hardly worth tagging as not neutral). For your purposes, reverting it once more will serve to provide you with more grist for your mill: if he reverts again he breaches the 3RR and will have one more offence on his very long jacket. If he does not revert, he must present material on the talkpage. Finally, he will tire of the process. Grace Note 05:47, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

On 21:29, 14 Jun 2005 Neutrality blocked "User:Trey Stone" with an expiry time of infinite (Vandalism, trolling.) I'm not too familliar with this Trey Stone person, largely because I tend to avoid these sort articles (for very obvious reasons) and, for reasons which go beyond the scope of this, I don't place much faith on them to end up even remotely adhering to (in this case, what is) their greatest enemy's intelligencia, U.S. academia, which I obviously also take issues with (both when comapred to academias of other Western countries, as well as critically beyond). But it appears Trey was acting like a provocateur, creating all this tension which put everybody on edge. I think Kapil is willing to contribute his knowledge, learn from others, and collaborate professionally, if the atmosphere is calm so everyone can relax. In a sense, though, there will be others users like Trey Stone, like Kapil, like you, like myself, etc., and much of these sort of events will be repeated. The key is to able to draw some lessons from it, so that it dosen't prove to be a waste of time (and lest we forget, there –are– some out there who wish for it to be just that). Yours, El_C 00:54, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

OMG

you leaving wiki doesnt make any difference. as we both know wikipedia does not depend on you in anyway, as you leave another douzen experts or what not join the ranks. even if you have written many good articles there are countless other good articles written by a whole bunch of people. --GregLoutsenko 12:39, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I couldn't help but notice...

...that you came back recently and did some editing and writing...well good for you...as they say...absence makes the heart grow fonder. Be well and do try to ENJOY yourself here. Don't let the mob get to you! Best wishes, IZAK 08:53, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think he is, IZAK. I also think he likes the excitment. ;) Speaking of which, have a look here, 172. Heh. El_C 08:58, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You are responsible for this

As always Trey Stone is attacking the very same articles, making reverts, presenting the same circular arguments on talk, and declaring that while he has time to revert and POV articles, he does not have time to do any actual reading on these subjects. 172 02:11, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The article you cite says:

i don't have time to read your personally-selected books on this subject, no. i am getting ready to go to college and am looking to do things with my friends before i leave over the summer -- wikipedia is not high on my priorities. and my arguments have been far more substantive than your condescending "well this is the reality" attitude. J. Parker Stone 02:35, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

He isn't being very nice, it's on the fringe of a personal attack. Is that your problem? --Tony Sidaway|Talk 02:40, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

oh come off it. being less than genteel to an editor who continually refers to my edits as "POV vandalism" is not "on the fringe" of flaming. J. Parker Stone 08:39, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Protection reigns supreme, four articles and counting. With more sought? Who do we thank, 172? -- ElC 04:10, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Note:Regarding the images you have removed .Please note he following-even if you dislike certain peson or his/her contribution to wikipdia it does not mean you should immedeatelly delete the content. Some other people have other opinion. Please consider the talk pages first. Gabrichidze 12 : 12 June 21, UTC

Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/History of Poland (1945-1989)

I'd appreciate your comments on this article. I did my best to make it NPOV, but as you well know, there is a limit one person can NPOV such a topic - your view would be most welcome. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 00:18, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Tnx for the comments. Perhaps you could vote on renomination at Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/History of Poland (1945-1989). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 4 July 2005 11:31 (UTC)

I like your changes. But one question: is satellite state you removed incorrect? Puppet state is perhaps to POVed, but satellite seems NPOV and correct to me. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 6 July 2005 20:44 (UTC)

About the elections: Halibutt provided some sources in talk, I will try to look for more (and English) soon. For now, I translated the Polish Wiki on 46 referendum, which I also linked from History... article (it was very important, shame I forgot about it till now). See Polish people's referenda, 1946. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 8 July 2005 10:56 (UTC)

Some very interesting comments were added at FAC by User:Fifelfoo. Now this is what I call 'constructive critisism'. I tried to address some of his remarks, but I'd appreciate your help in this. He does make a lot of good points, but I feel my knowledge is simply not enogugh to adress all of them. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 13:19, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

new alterna-wiki

Check out Red Wiki, the newest addition to the crowd, a red alternative to the anarchist Anarchopedia, and liberal/socdem Demopedia and dKosopedia. Ruy Lopez 01:49, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Puppet state

I'm in the process of converting the list into text form so that we have more specific information that's easier to verify (such as constantly stating "the communist bloc claimed South Vietnam was a US puppet state", "North Korea to this day claims that South Korea is a US puppet state", etc. etc.) Is this an acceptable compromise to you? If so, then I implore you to not remove the list quite yet. — Phil Welch 06:32, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I realize I'm probably the last person you want to hear from at the moment, but as a show of good faith, I want to apologize for before, and tell you that I've recently removed just about all of the content in the article I couldn't directly verify. I encourage you to inspect the article and, if it is to your approval, to remove or revise the dispute tag yourself. I've also taken the liberty of going back to the talk page and striking out some of the more catty remarks I made since I'd like to take them back (and maybe if this cools down we can agree to Misplaced Pages:Remove personal attacks entirely).

To reiterate, I am very sorry things turned the way they did, and I hope we can move on productively. — Phil Welch 30 June 2005 12:28 (UTC)

Three revert rule

You have been blocked for 24 hours under the three revert rule. If you wish to appeal please contact another administrator or the mailing list.Geni 08:49, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Unblocked. Only three reverts by my count. Mackensen (talk) 12:15, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sources

Hi. I don't know if or when you might read this. I've nominated the article Empire of Brazil for peer review and intend to nominate it for Featured article status. So far people seem to feel that the article is very good, but that it lacks indications of sources and references. I've argued that you might not have included them because you could have written the bulk of the article from memory. I'm assuming this, of course. As the main contributor (by far) to that article, would you consider adding some of the references you might have consulted? Or, if I'm right, would you mind dropping a note to let the community know that the source for the article was indeed your own memory? Thanks. Regards, Redux 03:03, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your help! This will go a long way to getting the article featured. Regards, Redux 1 July 2005 15:47 (UTC)

RfA thanks

Thank you for your support for my adminship. Cheers, -Willmcw 05:35, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)

more on alterna-wiki's

You said that because of the popularity of Misplaced Pages, it should be concentrated on as opposed to alterna-wiki's. I don't see this as a Manichaean thing, I can work in both. I waste time making changes here, then I actually write articles elsewhere.

To me the Khmer Rouge page is symptomatic of the problem. There has been a battle over it since 2003, yet it is more or less the same. It is completely Sisyphean. Adam Carr is the main culprit, but CJK, A2Kafir, Rangek, Husnock, RickK and even Trey Stone have all decided to rewrite history so Sihanouk's role in 1975 is written out of history. I should note that I considered this a very minor change, but even this is not possible - I have seven (or more) people against me, and who is on my side?

As far as Google searches, Google will find any wiki and people will be driven to it. For example, I created an article on Sourcewatch in 2004 that got over 10,000 hits. It is #5 on Google for Alexis de Tocqueville Institution. Misplaced Pages is #2, but it took Misplaced Pages some time to catch up, Sourcewatch used to be higher up. One problem is Sourcewatch changed it's name from Disinfopedia, which I'm sure hurt it's rankings. The point is Google is more concerned with the content, not where it is. Misplaced Pages just happens to have a lot of content.

Going back to the Manichaean thing, I don't see why one has to work on one or the other. If one works on an article for days, uploading it to a wiki other than Misplaced Pages takes about a minute (unless there are new pictures). And on the other wikis "reformed Maoists" like Adam Carr, the Trey Stone's when they're not banned and so forth won't set upon the article to destroy it.

You said alterna-wiki's have potential. They do, but if no one contributes to them, they won't. They have to be built up. If you spend days writing an article on George Kennan - upload it to another wiki! I usually leave radical topics to radical wikis, but that one could have even gone on Dkosopedia or Demopedia, which are liberal/soc-dem wikis. If no one is contributing material, the potential will never go anywhere.

You should give it a try. Fights over the Fidel Castro page, or the fight over the Khmer Rouge page going back to 2003 are wastes of time, I think. I would have thought the pulling of your admin status would have an effect on you. It seems inevitable to me that a viable leftish wiki encyclopedia pops up, hopefully it will have the base of Dkosopedia and Demopedia, but the militancy of Anarchopedia, Infoshop's Openwiki and Red Wiki. Ruy Lopez 6 July 2005 00:53 (UTC)

I have recently found out about those 'other' Wikis, and I consider them a waste of time. One: they are inheritantly POVed, each of them is designed to support one or another ideology. I wouldn't trust them as much as any political party or 'true believer'. Two: they are smaller, have fewer contributors and are generally less comprehensive. Three: each minute of time spent editing them is a minute spend on doing something that will be seen by fewer people then on Wiki, thus does less good and is a minute wasted. Fourth: The truth points to itself. Wiki is NPOV. If I can FA controversial articles like the Polish-Soviet War, Polish September Campaign, History of Poland (1945-1989) and History of Jews in Poland (soon, I hope), or see FAs on subject like Swastika, then I feel pretty certain there is hope for Wiki. Don't let small quarrels and exceptions turn you away. Me and 172 had our own little fight on PSWar, but in the end, I think it resulted in the article being much better and NPOVed. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 6 July 2005 20:51 (UTC)

The other Wikis are inheritantly POVed, but I don't think that they purport to be guided by NPOV. Their mission, it seems to me, is to offer an alternative perspective, which can be interesting if they attract good writers. 172 6 July 2005 21:07 (UTC)

I'm unimpressed and I don't want to change my vote. It needs much more NPOVing than has been done. Everyking 7 July 2005 01:08 (UTC)

Your protégé

Your "protégé" seems to need more "mentoring." I doubt that couching him on how to harass users like El C is part of the training under your "mentorship." I know that you disagree with El C and Ruy Lopez's POV-- so do I-- but I hope that you understand how this crosses the line. 172 7 July 2005 19:42 (UTC)

I dunno. I always had the impression that my political views are far closer, as a far left Brit, to El_C's and Ruy Lopez's than to Trey's--he seems to be some species of extreme right winger, politically. Nevertheless you're perfectly correct, he shouldn't be harassing people. Looking at the diff you cited, it looks like he's arguing that he isn't trolling. He calls El_C Che, though. Do I take it that El_C finds that offensive? --Tony Sidaway|Talk 7 July 2005 20:06 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I'm sorry that I was mistaken about your views. (BTW, I'd always assumed that you were also American too.) The Che comment is utterly inappropriate, as Trey Stone is certainly using it as a term of derision. The comments on how El C and Ruy Lopez also have "their own language" are also insulting and condescending. 172 7 July 2005 20:11 (UTC)

You're right. I'll tell him to stop being nasty. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 7 July 2005 20:28 (UTC)

coupla things. first, i am not an extreme rightwinger, at least not in the U.S. (center-right) -- maybe i'd be considered that in Britain, i don't know. secondly, no 172 the "Che" was not derision -- since his name is "El C" and he has Che's picture on his page, i thought his name was short for "El Che." and lastlyyyy... i've never seen Marxist terminology used so heavily in an argument before (to essentially insult Adam's comments as "tabloid propaganda.") that's all i'll say on that subject. i got Sidaway's email on this. J. Parker Stone 7 July 2005 22:39 (UTC)

Once again,I was speaking of his worldview and methodology and the overgeneralizations posed by his argument, you and him can disagree all you want. Please cease trolling me, personally, unless the Arbitration Committee give you license to do so. And we are not on first name basis regardless of what you think I am called, User:Trey Stone. That is all. El_C 7 July 2005 22:46 (UTC)