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Archives

/Archive 1: Jul 2005 - Jun 2007 /Archive 2: Jun 2007 - Jul 2007 /Archive 3: Oct 2007 - Dec 2007 /Archive 4: Mar 2008 - Aug 2008 /Archive 5: Aug 2008 - Dec 2008

Recent monorail edits disputed

Knotslanding: Thank you for your recent edits to the page Walt Disney World Monorail System. In my opinion, you are altering factually correct information to be factually incorrect. Please stop this practice, or cite verifiable references to demonstrate conclusively that your edits are valid. Notable incorrect statements introduced into these pages include:

• You reversed the terms "base" and "concourse" in the description of the platforms at TTC. Please provide a citation showing that your use of the terms reflects current practice among monorail cast members.

I will revert this edit if you are unable to provide appropriate citation. Again, thank you for working on this page, but please take a moment to verify your facts. Other editors: please see similar comment at Mark VI monorail. Roothog (talk) 05:09, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

DO you have nothing better to do? Citation BASE: HOME TO THE CENTRAL LOCATION OF THE SYSTEM BEING THE CENTRAL CONTROL BOOTH ALREADY MENTIONED IN THIS ARTICLE!!!! Dang man get off my back. Knotslanding (talk) 09:23, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh and if you want CORRECT terms. then no real cast member uses those terms. they are in the handbook (if you can find one) but CM's say things like "TTC Express line, or TTC Epcot line or TTC resort line or Contemporary express line, ect. So if you want to remove the whole paragraph, fine by me. Knotslanding (talk) 09:47, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

As the usage of "Base" and "Concourse" is specified in the current Monorail Operations SOP, it's not available as a cite for Misplaced Pages, but I can say from first-hand experience that your information IS incorrect. Having worked in the department as a driver and trainer for six years between 1999 and 2005, and having kept in contact to the present time with many railies that continue to work in the department, I suspect that I probably have just a bit better knowledge of the subject matter than you. You continue to say that the Epcot side is known as "the Base" apparently on the basis of the location of Central's tower, but fail to acknowledge the history of the station - the entire Epcot side of the station didn't become operational until 1980 or so, and the "Base" designation had been in use by the department for exterior/lagoon (Yes, LAGOON, not "interior") for years prior. Rather than change the station name that everyone was already familiar with, the moniker "Concourse" was adopted for the Epcot side (and Central's new home). As mentioned in a previous edit, if there is doubt, one can always call Transportation Base in the Westgate building at the TTC for confirmation, or feel free to ask any monorail cast member you happen to see. Also, Cast Members may refer to the stations as "TTC Express", "TTC Resort", and "TTC Epcot" when speaking directly to guests to avoid confusion, but internally the stations in question are ALWAYS known as "Base", "Concourse", and "Epcot". The information in question is uncited in the article anyway, so what exactly is this supposed "factual information" being based on to begin with? If you prefer to continue to argue the point, I suggest the entire portion of the article be removed on the basis of being uncited, rather than be incorrect. NormalVisual (talk) 04:31, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

1999-2005 huh??? Gee then I guess my study of Walt Disney world and the Walt Disney World Monorail System since the early 1980's till present day and having almost literally grown up in the MK,is nothing compared to your whole six years of working there huh? Maybe you need to go back and re-read the hand book. Also might want to do a little history lesson. from 1971 till 1981 before the EPCOT line was opened, the MK lines were the base. However when the EPCOT line opened along with it the central control booth, then the EPCOT line became the BASE. Now as for names of the line. BOTH the MK lines go around the lagoon. It makes no sense for one to be called lagoon and one not. No they are not called Interior or exterior either. They are referred to as RESORT and EXPRESS. The central Control booth calls them that. The monorail shop calls them that. Monorail pilots call them that. How do I know this? Well, other then my MANY MANY trips in the cab of a monorail listening to the pilot talk back and forth to the base, and with quiet a few of those rides being during training sessions. I have also heard a few of the recording of monorail com chatter. Oh wait, now you being Mr. know-it-all and working on the monorails for a whole 6 years will tell me the radio calls are not recorded right? There is no point in deleting CORRECT useful information from the article just because you feel that after a whole 6 years of driving a monorail and that being 2 years ago, you think you know everything about them. You continue to make your changes and I will continue to come back and fix them. Knotslanding (talk) 09:08, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

I guess this says it all. A guest who has no experience driving the trains, no experience actually working the platform, has never visited the inside of either the Concourse or Epcot console areas, has never been inside the monorail shop (taking the steam train tour and seeing the downstairs area doesn't count), but has ridden in the cab of a train a lot, "heard a few recordings" (and yes, everyone in the department knows the radio chatter is recorded, and the recordings often come into play when a driver is accused of a VOCP), and *maybe* has even been in the cab during a MAPO check obviously knows more than a cast member that worked there for several years, trained personnel in both platform operations as well as driving (being a trainer requires a whole different certification above and beyond just being a driver, incidentally), and is still in regular contact with several of the central coordinators and a number of other monorail cast, including a couple of the maintenance folks. Fix the article all you want because I refuse to argue anymore. Enjoy wallowing in your ignorance, and understand that you sound like a complete fool trying to compare 20 years of riding the trains with even six weeks of actually driving them, especially to those of us that actually do have that experience. Oh, and as regards the Base/Concourse dispute - the next time you're down there, see if the cast will let you take a look at the schedule sheet - there's an identical copy at every station. The fact that you'll find more than twice as many people assigned to Base as there are assigned to Concourse should be a very strong indication of which station is which. You'll also find that the sheet indicates Base is almost always staffed later than Concourse, owing to the fact that the Epcot beam is usually shut down before the lagoon (resort) beam is. NormalVisual (talk) 10:35, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

You keep talking a lot but you have yet to show any facts proving you know what your saying. You throw a few things like "I worked there for 6 years." and "Check the staff sheets." but if you had any real brains, being a CM you would have a copy of the hand book and could scan pages with proof and show them... Guess that would flatten you half @$$ attempted at being Mr. Know-it-all. I never said I ONLY got my knowledge from riding the trains and listening to a few recordings. But I would bet after almost 30 years of studying them and WDW, I know more then you think. And don't hand me the crap of "I worked there I know it all. I have talked to CM that have been driving Monorails for a few years that don't even know what model train they are driving. "Mark what?" So your "I drove the monorails for 6 years. " don't impress me any. BTW next time you are there, stop into the monorail shop and ask some of the guys that have been there for over 20 years for a history lesson. You might learn something. BTW No I have not taken the steam trains tour. But I Have been deeper into the Monorail shop then 90% of the monorail drivers ever even dreamed of. I have seen them being worked on. I have been there early in the morning when they are powered up for the first time that day. So don't pretend to think that I am just "some guest" that has ridden the monorail a few times. So I suggest you take you petty six years of driving experience and go drive the buses. Knotslanding (talk) 11:20, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Attention NormalVisual and Knotslanding! I would like to remind you that as per Misplaced Pages's official policy on No original research, your opinions and/or personal experiences are explicitly prohibited from being included. A good rule of thumb is "cite it or forget it." --Kralizec! (talk) 15:33, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes God know's we don't want someone that ACTYALLY knows the information to post it. We have to rely on *IF* they can post a link to the same information. So I guess that makes Wikipeda not an encyclopedia, but nothing more then a link hub for the internet. Knotslanding (talk) 21:53, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Little added info direct from a CURRENT monorail driver. Me:2 Monorails have white deltas on them Coral and Lime. Coral has a delta to identify it from what color? Him:Pink and Orange. Me:Lime has a delta to identify it from what color? Him:Green And if you care to read it yourself: Knotslanding (talk) 11:30, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Rather than continue to edit war over the lines in question, I added {{fact}} tags to the disputed parts. If we cannot find a reliable, third-party, published source that can be used to cite the information one way or another, then the disputed parts should be removed from the article. Is a month enough time for everyone to do their research and insert citations as needed? --Kralizec! (talk) 14:14, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

The information should never be removed. It is part of the article and is useful information. so not I don't think a month is long enough. The cite tags need to be removed and the information left alone. Knotslanding (talk) 14:54, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry you feel that way, but you may wish to review Misplaced Pages's official WP:SOURCE policy. It states in part that the "threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth." The section in question has been disputed by NormalVisual, and if the listed "facts" cannot be verified either way, they should be removed. --Kralizec! (talk) 15:25, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

BLAH BLAH BLAH, God Forbid we have TRUTH in an article. The facts have been in this article for some time now. And only now that some "Mr. Know-it-all" comes along and thinks because he was a driver for a few days he knows all about them. Remove the information. I will wait till things die down and add the FACTS back. Knotslanding (talk) 21:50, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Six years is a bit more than "a few days", and you continually gloss over the fact that I was a *trainer*. It was my job to actually teach people the system terminology, how to run the stations and drive the trains, and Disney actually paid me money to do so. Being a trainer also meant that we had to demonstrate a much more thorough knowledge of the system than most drivers. They thought highly enough of me such that I often got the people that had failed previous checkouts in order to try to salvage them before transferring them. They also thought highly enough of me to make sure I was in a train (Black, along with 11 other very good drivers in the others) during New Year's Eve 1999 because they really weren't sure what the trains were going to do at midnight, and wanted people in them that could handle anything that came up. But, as you say, there's no possible way the knowledge of a driver that worked the stations and was behind the console 52 weeks a year for six years (as opposed to "a few days") could POSSIBLY compare with that of someone that rode in the front cab a lot over 30 years and might have gotten the occasional peek at a couple of backstage areas. As I said, I quit on the edit war because I'm not going to continue to argue with or correct someone that's just too ignorant and hardheaded to know what he doesn't know. I absolutely am disputing the correctness of the article on a number of points, but I just don't care anymore whether it gets fixed, so enjoy your little personal kingdom on the Internet. Kralizec! - as regards citations for the article - that's going to be a bit tricky, as it's information internal to Disney and as such is covered in Disney's Monorail Operations Standard Operations Guide (SOPs), which are going to be the only truly objective and authoritative source. Unfortunately they're considered proprietary and covered by copyright, and Disney has *no* sense of humor about such things. I personally would be fine with just removing the disputed content, but I'm done trying to ensure it's correct. NormalVisual (talk) 17:16, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Normal Visual is correct. If it matters that much, I will scan my drive training manual that shows the station locations where Base is the original part of the TTC station and Concourse is the Epcot side.

Regarding Resort/Lagoon names, recently management has attempted to rename the beams from Exterior and Lagoon to Express/Resort for operational continuity with what is used toward guests. These names however have not been change on ANY operational station console in the system as of December 2008. If you walk into the console at the Transportation and Ticket center, the voltage indicators are CLEARLY labeled exterior and lagoon. The LMCU2 train console will show the beam as Express/Resort.

If you say so, your wrong, but if you say so. I fixed it back to the correct information.. I am sure you or someone will come along and try and change it back, I will wait 24 hrs and fix it again.Knotslanding (talk) 21:55, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Narration section

| accessdate = 2007-10-05 }}</ref> During the system's early years, the trains featured Wagner's narration of the sights and scenery along the way, as well as information on special events, the resort, and the monorail system itself. Since that time, other announcers have provided these narrations, yet the "stand clear" announcement remains in Wagner's voice. This is at least partially due to the fact that the audio for the doors is generated via a separate system than that for the rest of the spiels.

I will agree with that. that is not what I was undoing and I guess I forgot to leave the tag in the revert. Knotslanding (talk) 04:49, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

I am changing it back to "narrations" instead of "spiels." A spiel is a sales pitch. To narrate something is to explain as it goes along. The speech they give is a narration of what's going on. The article even calls it a narration twice just three sentences earlier: "...feature Wagner's narration..." and "...provided these narrations..." This suggests to me that narrations is the more appropriate word, either way (talk) 04:57, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Spiel is what it officially called by Disney. It is not a narration, even by your definition. He is not telling a story, he is telling what you are seeing and where you are going. Explaining things about the park, ect. That is a spiel. I fixed the other miss-uses of the word narration too. Knotslanding (talk) 21:53, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a source that shows this is officially what Disney calls it? either way (talk) 21:56, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes. take a trip to Florida, Cali, Hong Kong, Paris, ect Any Disney park you choose. Ask any cam that works any attraction (including the monorails) what the speech is called. Guess what they will say.... Just guess. IT'S A SPIEL!.Knotslanding (talk) 22:03, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

This is original research. What we need is reliable sources that say that Disney calls it a spiel, not "I heard it from a guy..." either way (talk) 22:06, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

No you need to accept the fact that this and EVERY other Disney article on Misplaced Pages, and the internet calls it a spiel. ALso maybe pick up a little book called a Dictionary once in a while. Knotslanding (talk) 22:19, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Again, as I told you, a spiel is a sales pitch. What exactly are they selling by telling you "there on the left is a lake"? No, they're narrating the scenery as it goes past. They're telling what is there, which is a narration. Again, this is original research...you need to provide sources rather than say "well everyone says it". either way (talk) 22:22, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

That's why they are called SAFETY SPIELS right, because they are trying to sell you something... huh? well, maybe trying to sell you your life. Narration is telling a story Like The voice over in Grinch. This is not a story. You want facts. There is a site you can go to. www.google.com It has TONS of information on the matter. Knotslanding (talk) 22:26, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

You really need to drop your attitude, seriously. You will likely be blocked again if you remain hostile like this. Again, spiel = "a usually high-flown talk or speech, esp. for the purpose of luring people to a movie, a sale, etc.; pitch." Narrate = "to add a spoken commentary to (a film, television program, etc.): to narrate a slide show. " They are adding spoken commentary to the monorail ride. Unless you can provide reliable sources that say that Disney calls it a spiel, this should be narration throughout that section, either way (talk) 22:32, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Front cab riding

Almost all of the front cab riding section has needed sources since April 2008. Since this has been tagged as such for eight months, I removed most of it yesterday. It was now restored, without sources added to it. I believe that this section should be removed unless it can be sourced. either way (talk) 22:02, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

And NONE of the front cab ridding section needs sources. however there is one part that is requesting source when a image of the card is even posted. (or was) You removed it to be vindictive. Knotslanding (talk) 22:05, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

No, I removed it because A. the image was a copyright violation and B. there was no reliable sources given. either way (talk) 22:06, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

The image is not a copyright violation. And there is no need for sources in that section. There is nothing said in that section that requires sources. But as I said the image itself was a source. This article has WAT too many "sources needed" tags. The article can sit here for years with the same information. then a new Misplaced Pages mod joins and just because THEY don't know of the information, they want to throw in a citation needed tag. A lot of information cannot be cited as it comes from manuals that are not available for the public.

But you know what. Just as in the past, I will let YOU make your changes. I have a copy of this article and the CORRECT information saved. In a few months after you have gotten over your power trip, I will come back and fix the article. It's amazing that this article has sat here this long with no problems. Then all of sudden YOU show up and all hell breaks loose. Take a hint. Go find another article to harass. Knotslanding (talk) 22:17, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

1. Cite error: The named reference PSCOTDdwt was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

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