Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 02:28, 23 October 2005

Avianca Flight 52

Nice work cleaning up Avianca Flight 52.

Icd 00:40, May 10, 2005 (UTC)

KPBI and SKBO

Thanks for getting that template in there on PBIA. Also, on the El Dorado page, have you flown there? Would it be worth adding a line about how the Colombian Air Force shares the runways?

-- Nuggetboy 21:07, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Miami International Airport

Since you can't personally vouch for the references in the history section, you could start noting references (try Google print. For me it is quite effective) whenever you add new material to the article. I didn't mean to direct the comment about references and history to you especially, but you should note that you take responsibility for any articles submitted for FAC. Another thing, for comments relating to other's critiques, please place them in the FAC listing. That way, more people can be able to help. Pentawing 21:41, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Columbine High School massacre

I looked over the article and placed my thoughts on the FAC listing. There are several problems with it that I am going to take care of. A word of advice: it is best to place an article through Peer Review first before submitting to FAC (though I have seen articles go directly to FAC without Peer Review and still become featured). For this article, since it still strikes a nerve amongst others, I personally can't see its easily becoming featured on the first try. Pentawing 22:30, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

I expanded the introduction of the article. Looking over it again, there are several problems that still need to be addressed, notably the description of the massacre. As I noted before, it is long winded with too many details. Maybe you could try to trim it down a bit, since much of the article consists of the description of the massacre but not on the aftermath.

I don't know if the article is ready for FA. The massacre is still a touchy subject (I can't imagine how it is in Littleton), and I am not an expert concerning several issues that the event touched upon (e.g. gun control). For such an event, the article must be the best the Misplaced Pages can produce (I applaud your willingness to take on such a difficult endeavour). You could try to nominate the article again for FA, though in its current state I am not confident that it will succeed. One thing you could try is to contact the other users who critiqued the article during the first attempt at FA and during Peer Review for more advice. I also saw from the discussion page that there are several people involved. Try asking them for more ideas if you find yourself at a dead end. Pentawing 01:28, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

The only content that I think should be included is more mention about gun control, notably legislation and lawsuits. From what I remembered after Columbine, legislation concerning the need for background checks and other regulations at gun shows was introduced. I vaguely recalled that there was a lawsuit against the maker and seller of the TEC-9, though I could be wrong on this.

Aside from that, you could resubmit the article for FA if you wish. However, be prepared to shorten the article and/or move some of the content into a sub-article since it is now at 38 kB, which someone might bring up. I will probably sit out on the vote, but I will try to help if at all possible. If there is nothing more, I wish you the best of luck. Pentawing 23:59, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

I saw that you decided not to pursue FA for the article. I know how frustrating it is, but given the subject matter, there are going to be problems that one will encounter (please keep in mind that, though I truly dislike it myself, politics are at work around Misplaced Pages, especially for controversial issues, and I have seen a lot of them. If you don't believe me, try George W. Bush, which has a "disputed neutrality" tag on it). However, don't be discouraged. At least you know how the FA process works. You could try again with a less controversial topic, and hence be successful at the end. A great way of learning the FA process further is to critique articles, especially ones that interest you, that have been nominated and continue critiquing until you feel satisfied with the article. That is how I learned about the FA process in the first place.

In the meantime, I might help with the image issue. The only thing I need to know is the source of the images (for that I need the website addresses or report title if the source is on paper). That way, I could determine what is the correct tag and write the rationale if necessary.

Again, don't let this failure let you down and distract you from writing good informative articles (or God forbid cause you to leave Misplaced Pages. From the work I have seen you do, you certainly have the potential, and Misplaced Pages needs more good people). You said it yourself that this was the first time you submitted articles for FA. At least next time you know what to expect and be ready for it. Pentawing 21:36, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

• The changes to the article are excellent, especially the inline references. I hope you didn't take my objections the wrong way--I just wanted this article to be as good as it could be. This will especially help when the article is featured on the front page and get subject to massive edits by everyone and their mother. In addition, 45k is not too long for a feature article. The 32k blurb at the top of the edit page is evidently from a year or two back when Misplaced Pages's template gave people with older browsers problems is the article was longer than 32k. My understanding is that this is no longer true. In fact, a number of editors feel that no article should be nominated for FA status until it is at least 32k long. Anyway, excellent work and I will now support the FA.--Alabamaboy 12:50, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

• Good work. I think this article is now ready to be nominated for featured article status. I've noticed before you've added the article to Peer Review or the Featured Article Candidates and then later removed it. But I would suggest it's more productive to let the article run the full course of nomination. That way you can get everyone's opinion before you submit the article again. Cedars 13:16, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Don't worry about it. I totally understand how these things can get to you (I went through the same process with my featured article African American literature). You know, I'd put the link to the article's current FAC back up since you've addressed the concerns raised (I think the other user's concerns were related to images, and I believe you also took care of those). This way people can see that you are addressing people's concerns, which is the main thing that people want. As for the front page, certain articles do attract more than their share of vandalism and bad edits--and, unfortunately, the Columbine article will probably be one of them. All you can do is put out the best possible work and then keep an eye on the page for the day it is up. African American literature will be on the front page on Aug. 25, so I'll let you know after that how it went :-). If you need any support on this article or anything else, just let me know. Best, --Alabamaboy 13:37, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

• I am attempting to address the image issue that was brought up. The one image where the source is not noted is Image:Evacuating Columbine.jpg. What is it? As for the library map, how strongly do you want that included in the article? If it isn't that necessary, the image can be removed. Thanks. Pentawing 23:47, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
  • I need the exact source (e.g. the website from which you got the image from). I have no problems with the lead image, though it doesn't capture the essence of the shooting (the image could do just as well on the Columbine High School article). As for the vote, I will try to get around to that this week as I am still looking over it (at the moment I am leaning towards support, and no I am not moderating the FAC so I can vote. It is just that I want to be sure of my vote before proceeding). Anyways, good work. If this article does become featured, someone should give you a Barnstar for this, though some believe giving barnstars is a stupid idea :-0. Pentawing 23:59, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
    • Happy to help. As for article size, the article being greater than 32 kB for featured status is a misconception; it's how comprehensive the article is that counts (there are featured articles that are less than 32 kB). Anyways, I am going to add more in the long-term impact section tomorrow to make it more comprehensive. Pentawing 00:50, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
      • I am leaning towards the image of Patrick Ireland (if that is his name) being pulled out by the police officers. I recalled seeing that image on the evening news when Columbine occurred. Pentawing 00:59, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
        • Looked over the article, added some things, did some more copyediting, and finally voted. As far as I'm concerned, you have done good work, especially for such a difficult subject. Now all that has to be done is wait and hope that there are no further problems. Pentawing 00:02, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
          • On average about a week and a half to two weeks, if not longer depending on the amount of concensus. That is really up to Raul654, so if you want to really know you should ask him. I believe you may have some issue with my vote (which suggests it wasn't too enthusiastic), but when it comes to difficult issues I want to see the best that Misplaced Pages has to offer (I only started to get really involved with Misplaced Pages in April-May of this year, so I haven't seen everything yet :-)). Even so, the article is good work, and don't be surprised if you find me (or yourself for that matter) improving the article even when it reaches featured status. You certainly haven't let the first few failures let you down, which is a good thing in Misplaced Pages where anything (mostly good but also bad) can happen. I'll keep watch on the article and hope that there are no further problems. Pentawing 00:33, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
            • I am looking over the article in more detail. Usually a weak support doesn't kill an article's chance at being featured (I did the same with Louisville, Kentucky, which became featured). I might change my vote to plain support later this week after I finish going through the article one last time. Pentawing 00:57, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
• I'm sorry, but I don't think I can be of much help with the images situation. It is very frustrating, I'm sure, that you can't get the article featured (or are having troubles) because of certain people being irrational sticklers for images. (Due to my relative inexperience at Misplaced Pages--I've only been here a few months--I'm no expert when it comes to pictures.) Best of luck to you, though. --Matt Yeager 23:52, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
• I'm afraid I don't know much about about the issues surrounding images. For what it's worth, though, the same user raised questions about images in an article of mine during a FAC. This user does this with almost all FACs. In my case, I made a good faith effort to put copyright info on the image pages and politely replied to him why these images could be used under fair use. Try doing this. If you attempt to fix the problem that might be enough (especially if you can get rid of one or two of his major objections). Hope this helps. --Alabamaboy 00:29, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I see you took my advice even before I gave it. I think what you've already done should help. Even if he doesn't remove his objection, the fact that you tried to correct the situation should help the FAC.--Alabamaboy 00:31, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm a little bit excited about the article on the front page--after all, I researched and wrote the thing b/c I want people to read it. However, I'm worried about the vandalism and bad edits that will also come its way. Still, better to be read than not. Best with your article.--Alabamaboy 00:36, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Just wanted to add one more thing. I was just rereading the article and it is now truly amazing. You have produced one of the best article on Misplaced Pages. Congrats.--Alabamaboy 00:54, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

In reply: You say the existance of the documents were not known. What about the documents contents. Can you put anything in involving that? --ZeWrestler 16:04, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

• Congratulations! I just found out that the article has become featured. Since you have placed a lot of work into the article, and faced a near crisis at one point over objections and other issues (which nearly caused you to give up), I have decided to award you The Resilient Barnstar! Please note that until now I have never awarded something like this, and given that I don't have a barnstar myself, I am new to the entire process (I was thinking of awarding you the original barnstar until I settled for this one). Again, keep on learning as well as the good work! You certainly deserved this. Pentawing 19:42, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

There are two ways for the article to make the front page:

• Nominate it for the front page on the Today's Featured Article talk page
• Wait for it to automatically get on the front page (which happened to my first FA, SS Andrea Doria, which will be on the front page tomorrow).

I'll let you decide whether or not you want to nominate for the front page or wait for it to reach the front page. At the moment, there is little or no activity with the article though I will continue to monitor it. Hope everything is alright in south Florida (I wasn't really following the news, plus the weather here in Michigan is very calm so I apologize if I seem a bit insensitive concerning the situation with Hurricane Katrina). Pentawing 19:58, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

NSR

You left a message at User talk:NSR about him inserting the goatse image into an article. That was actually done by an impostor, User:N5R. Just letting you know. --Golbez 22:02, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

Assistance with African American Literature needed

Congrats on getting the Columbine article to FA status. It truly deserves it. I apologize for not dropping a line about the FA upgrade earlier, but I've been involved in a discussion at Talk:African American literature. As you may know, African American literature is an article I recently brought to FA status. Anyway, one editor has an issue with how the article is structured b/c the article describes Black literature while following the history and politics of African Americans. To him, bringing history and politics into a literature article is wrong b/c the article should totally focus on art, form, aesthetics. I've already pointed out that Black lit is tied in with the history and experiences of Black people in this country. I also showed that Literature of the United States, English literature, Tamil literature and so on follows the basic sociological and historical framework that this article uses. This editor has made very few edits to the English Misplaced Pages (only 62!) and most people--through the FAC process and in comments now--have agreed that the article is currently set up very well. However, another user has suggested mediation and such, even though I have agreed with almost everything the other editor has suggested (with the exception of a total rewrite and restructuring of the article). I'm about to go crazy over this. I mean, this other editor has contributed nothing to the article except to say he hates it and now I'm expected to agree with everything he says? Any help is greatly appreciated.--Alabamaboy 01:58, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Regarding school districts

Many articles about school districts are being made on Misplaced Pages. I changed the linking to public school for the Jefferson County Public Schools link on the Columbine High article back to a "dead" link to a future location for an article about the public school system. WhisperToMe 20:18, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Be glad To Watch Your Articles

Hope you get everything back up and running soon from the huricane. Don't worry about me--I received the help I needed on the article. I will be happy to watch your article and will do so until you get back online. Best,--Alabamaboy 22:09, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your vote

Thanks very much for your vote of support on my Jean Schmidt article. I'm pleased to say it is today's featured article of the day. PedanticallySpeaking 16:53, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

Columbine High School massacre

I looked through the article and did some copyediting. So far, I didn't see many problems with grammar and spelling, though there were some information that were repeated (of which I corrected). Other than that, there are no other problems. Pentawing 22:28, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

• Perhaps (I think the article is good and haven't seen any major problem with it, but then again I haven't spent a lot of time on it recently). But you can go ahead and nominate it. But be aware that if the article makes it to the front page, it will be subjected to a lot vandalism (I have seen this done with SS Andrea Doria, which forced the administrators to protect it from further vandalism). Nevertheless, I don't see any problems with your going ahead with this. If you are still unsure, you can ask others who critiqued the article what they think. Pentawing 00:45, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
  • When the article is protected, it cannot be edited until the protection is removed. As far as I know, article protection can only be done by administrators (which I am not one of them), but in any case you might want to find a friendly administrator who will do that (if you haven't found one already). For more on this, see Misplaced Pages:Protection policy. Pentawing 00:57, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
    • Glad to know that the article will be on the front page. Best, --Alabamaboy 18:12, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Date Template

I'm not sure where to go or who to talk about the date change. You might try raising this issue in the general forums. Wish I could help more.--Alabamaboy 13:09, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi. I noticed your question:

1. Select Preferences
2. Select Date format
3. Select the format you want
4. Select Save (bottom of page)

That should do it! hydnjo talk 01:01, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

And I thank you for putting the "Mainpage date to come" template on Talk:San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge. I'm a strong advocate of documenting an article's Mainpage date.

Your preference info could get lost if you changed browsers or deleted any WP related cookies somehow.

And, congratulations on your Featured Article. Counting the days 'till Mainpage are we? ;-) hydnjo talk 12:38, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Miami-Dade Schools

I'll be quite frank in telling you that it's not a topic in which I have any particular interest. I have several long lists of redlinks to fill for courts, cases, law schools, state parks, etc., and I'd be lying if I said I would get to another project of this scope anytime soon. However, there are plenty of Wikipedians who are interested in expanding information on primary education venues, and you should have little difficulty finding them. Cheers! -- BDAbramson 22:06, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Accipiter

I reverted your minor change to Accipiter, not because it is wrong as such, but because of possible confusion due to the difference in usage of hawk in North American and British English -hope this is OK, jimfbleak 06:06, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Krop

Sorry about the deletion. I'm trying to make an article for all the schools in the county, and I was trying to go for a more uniformed look. I felt that some of the information deleted is cluttered and irrelevent, such as specific student achievements; only school achievements should be noted, or group achievements. The article becomes full of lenghty, sometimes useless information when you note such specific details. Also, I think the deleted section needs to be rewritten for better wording. If you'd like, try to blend in all the information into shoter paragraphs without making so many subcategories, especially dedicating an entire subcategory to just one sentence, this makes the article look very cluttered. You can keep the information about students that went to MIT and Harvard, and the visit by the Prince of Monaco, as well as the information on the school's naming, bomb threats, and the magnet program but all that information on students receiving awards really pertains more to the specific student than the school. Once that student graduates, his or her achievement becomes irrelevant to the school. Also, can you help me create articles for the lists on the M-DCPS page. Right now, I'm working on high schools and my friend is working on elementary schools but we hope to eventually have an article for every school in the county (high schools will be have more info and pictures, while middle/elementary and other schools will be stubs). Thanks. PRueda29 13:44, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

• Apology accepted. However, according to the consensus when the article went through VfD, a school article needs to be appealing for the School, Parents, current Students and Alumni, in which case it is not that bad to include some personal achievements. In my view, after adding more and more news and bits of information, some of the less relevant information can be deleted. It's something like planting 2 trees for each tree that you take down, instead of burning the whole forest.--AAAAA 00:16, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Other Remarks

Okay personally, I dont think there should be any remarks such as gifted school and bilingual school as a lot of schools are bilingual and have gifted programs.

I ask first because I dont want to do something wrong and be blamed.

Also I may update the list of magnet schools. I have a list of them and what they specialize in.

Abel 04:30, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Oh alright then (about the magnet schools). I might add though what they specialize in if it's alright.

I'm going to hold off the Milam article for a while so I can get updated info. My schools website hasnt been updated in ages but this year we're switching to online gradebooks and my teacher hs designed the new webpage so I'll use that for eference later on.

Alright, night and thanks for guiding a n00b. Abel 04:45, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Where is Columbine?

Yes, I am familiar with the area. The reason for saying it is near Littleton is because most media incorrectly reported that the school was in Littleton. However, saying that a place is near this and near that is generally not a great idea in a lead paragraph. For one thing, it begs the question "how near?"—one mile, fifty miles, north, south, east or west. Probably not that many people who want information about Columbine really care that it is near Denver. But some will, so why not say is in Denver metro? Those that are hazy about where Jefferson County is will then have a compass point. You seem like a serioius editor, so I will trust your judgement on this. Sunray 18:59, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Since you didn't respond, I checked the article to see what you had decided to do and note that you made no change. I suggested that saying something is "near" something is problematic because it is imprecise. In the case of Littleton, it is necessary to state that because of the misunderstanding about the school being located there. In the case of Denver, it is different. If we are going to say it is near, it would be best to say how near and preferably a direction. That is cumbersome. So I propose (again) that we say that Jefferson County is in the Denver-Aurora Metropolitan Area. If you cannot live with that, I suggest we eliminate any mention of Denver. Sunray 16:18, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Your additions are a definite improvement. Thanks for working with me on this. Sunray 16:26, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Response to Your Response to My Edit on Columbine

I don't know whether you've seen Bowling for Columbine. Once you have, reconsider. WAS 21:05, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, if it really isn't a problem, I think it might merit a note in parentheses after the other items. But I didn't mean to cause that much trouble... at least, not over this. WAS 21:44, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

WTF, fuggedaboudit. Just, I think it works for the article. But I don't give. Do what you like with it, live and prosper, etc. WAS 21:50, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I don't care. Add it back, if you think it'll be a good addition. WAS 22:01, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Resource for Miami-Dade schools.

You'll surely find this website to be a very useful tool in writing articles on Miami-Dade schools. I added info from this site to the article for W.J. Bryan Elementary School. -- BDAbramson 03:33, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

• Ah, lesson #1: school articles don't get deleted on Misplaced Pages. Too many people are too committed to keeping them. -- BDAbramson 03:58, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
• Thank you for all the great work you've put into the Florida-region school articles. Do you have access to a digital camera? Bahn Mi 22:06, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
  • The reason I asked is that I am in the process of assembling a Schoolwatch photographers organization, and thought you may be able to assist in capturing schools within your area. If you happen to come across one please let me know! Bahn Mi 20:26, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Mainpage date to come

Hi, I noticed that you placed this template on the talk page for Tamil people, today's featured article. Thank you for doing this - User:Hydnjo and I have recently gone through the archives dating back to Feb 04 and placed the mainpage date template on the talk pages of all relevant articles, simply cos we both thought that mainpage status was worthy of note. Adding the 'date to come' template is obviously a big help, as it having it there will remind others to change it to 'mainpage date'. User:Raul654 didn't appear too enthusiastic about institutionalising the placing of the 'mainpage date' template on appropriate talk pages, so thank you for keeping it up - if we carry on for long enough it'll become standard practice anyway. Cheers, --HighHopes 08:54, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. The template has actually been placed on all the old ones (Hydnjo did the majority), so nothing left there - it was simply a matter of making sure this practice is kept up, as the template is fairly new and before this, an article making the front page wasn't recognised as such within its namespace. If you do see that the talk page of a MP article lacks the mainpage date template, it'd be great if you could stick it in - I'll do it is often as I can myself but I just don't want the routine to be kept up. Thanks, --HighHopes 09:22, 24 September 2005 (UTC) P.S. Well done on the Columbine article - very good it was too.

Let me add my thanks again. I would think that all of the Wikipedians that push and pull an article to featured promotion and then on to Mainpage position (as you did with Columbine High School massacre) should be proud, and feel that their article should carry a recognition of that accomplishment. That's why I'm so intent on the "Mainpage date" thing. And BTW, I disagree a bit with your user page declaration that your "Privileges" are "None!". You have the privilege to write, influence, change minds, edit articles, and pretty much do all you want to do in this place. But you already know that so I'm pretty much "preaching to the choir". Keep up your good work and I'm sure I'll see you at WP:LA one day. --hydnjo talk 00:35, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

That mysterious little arrow...

I read your post of hydnjo's page...if my guess is correct, I think you are referring to the arrow that shows up whenever you edit a subsection. If you edit a subsection instead of the full page, that arrow will show up.

By the way, you're doing an excellent job on Misplaced Pages! :-) --HappyCamper 20:46, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Miami - Dade County Schools

I originally created most of the elementary school articles on this page. I did it before I knew there was such a controversy with school articles and once I found this out I stopped, but since I'm not a sysop I couldn't delete them. The main reason I stopped was because the project to create these articles is so massive I'd rather just not have to do it. Thus, I support your deletion of the elementary school articles though I'm abstaining from voting. I do want to know though if you believe that high school articles should be kept as well? Also, should I create middle schools articles, or just leave them as a list? What about Magnet high Schools, adult education centers, alternative schools, charter schools, etc? I don't really believe these articles are schoolcruft because they are linked to the district's article and are daughter articles of it. Also, I didn't create them out of personal interest, I just didn't want 300+ red links on the district page. I'm not yet done with the high school articles, but I want to know if anyone would object to them or not? I would be against deleting the high school articles as I do think High Schools are notable, but I don't want to deal with 31-39 AfDs one day. What do you think? PRueda29 01:49, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

First off, sorry it's taken so long to get back to you on this. Secondly, I don't have an opinion on magnet schools, adult education centers, etc. I just haven't thought about them. As far as the elementary schools go, I just don't feel that having an article for each school that is going to remain a stub is suitable. To me it's like characters from a popular television show like The Simpsons or movies like Star Wars. The show/movies themselves are notable and should have articles but the minor characters can very easily be summed up in lists. I think that the whole is greater than its parts. The Miami Dade County school system is a worthwhile inclusion but to have an article about every little school in it doesn't seem worthwhile. Take one of the schools at random, you just have a name, school colors, address, enrollment date, and principal's name. To me, that's a yellow pages entry basically. But if you take all those articles and put them into a list a user can see just how vast the school system is by the number of items. The stubs are just too microscopic of a view. As far as high schools are concerned, I know I'm not going to win the fight to limit their articles but again, I'm going to have to say that most are not notable enough to have their own article unless maybe you wanted to include info on their sports teams and the number of state titles they have won in their particular sport. Columbine High School could have an article based on the fact that a major event in the lives of several hundred people took place there. Information could be written about like how the school has changed since the shooting, what new policies were put into place, and the social repurcussions from what happened. But Columbine H.S., to me, is the exception, not the rule. But then I'm just a guy in front of a keyboard. I hope this all made sense and if you'd like to discuss it more, I'd be happy to do that. Dismas| 03:19, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Re: Phishing on front page.

thanks for the tip, i'll look into that when i get a chance. ZeWrestler 17:35, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Can I get your vote?

I have been nominated for an adminship and I was wondering if I could get your vote. If you feel inclined, please go to Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Alabamaboy and cast your "yes" or "not in a million years." Many thanks.--Alabamaboy 02:28, 23 October 2005 (UTC)