Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (Korean): Difference between revisions

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			This article covers naming conventions generally followed by editors of Misplaced Pages articles on Korean subjects. None of these rules are cast in stone, and not all contributors follow exactly the same standard, although we are gradually arriving at a general concensus. If you have any ideas, suggestions, objections, or comments, please feel free to participate in the ongoing discussion on this article's ]. If the concensus changes and this page has not been updated, please update the affected rules below.
	Hello, Korean wikipedians and non-korean wikipedians interested in Korea (both south and north).

			== Summary of conventions ==
	There's also a Korean Misplaced Pages. http://ko.wikipedia.org <br>
	한국어 위키백과도 있습니다. http://ko.wikipedia.org

			* ''Personal names'': put the family name first; use a hyphen if commonly used by the person in question. Right now, the consensus is to follow the spelling of the name most commonly found in English, even if it does not conform to a standard romanization (thus, ] and ] instead of "Kim Il-sŏng" and "I Seungman"), but see also the discussion on the ].
	Let's talk about various themes about Korean items in Misplaced Pages. Here are several themes being discussed at the same time. Please do not write your opinion just at the end of this page, but tail it in each section.

	== Overview ==
	This section is an overview of the naming conventions. If you don't agree, please discuss this below. If the consensus changes, please change the entry up here.

	* ''Personal names'': put the family name first; use a hyphen if commonly used by the person in question.
	* ''Romanization'': we use the ] for South Korean/Korean topics; we use ] for North Korean topics		* ''Romanization'': we use the ] for South Korean/Korean topics; we use ] for North Korean topics
	* There is no agreement on how exactly to add the ''Hangeul'' and ''Hanja''.		* There is no agreement on how exactly to add the ''Hangeul'' and ''Hanja''.
Line 17:		Line 11:
	* The use of ''East Sea'' / ''Sea of Japan'' is ].		* The use of ''East Sea'' / ''Sea of Japan'' is ].
	* The ''historical periods'' are: Goguryeo (고구려); Balhae (or Barhae) (발해); Three Kingdoms (삼국시대); Goryeo (고려); Joseon (조선)		* The ''historical periods'' are: Goguryeo (고구려); Balhae (or Barhae) (발해); Three Kingdoms (삼국시대); Goryeo (고려); Joseon (조선)
	* The ''Three Kingdoms'' are transcribed as: Silla, Goguryeo, Baekje.		* The ''Three Kingdoms'' are transcribed as: Silla, Goguryeo, Baekje.

	== Romanization ==

	This section shall deal mainly with how we should write the Korean names in the Latin alphabet. I've put a link to the official South Korean romanization, but firstly it's quite new (therefore there exist too many non-standard romanizations in books and the internet), and further it's only the standard of one of two Koreas.

	:''See'': ]

	External link:

	:''(4) Personal names are written by family name first, followed by a space and the given name. <b>In principle, syllables in given names are not separated by hyphen</b>, but the use of a hyphen between syllables is permitted.

	:e.g.
	::민용하 Min Yongha (Min Yong-ha)
	::송나리 Song Nari (Song Na-ri)''
	<center>Excerpt from the above link.</center>

	I think we should stick to the principle. Korean names are similar to Chinese names, and Chinese names don't use hyphens, do they? --]

	:I would use hyphens when needed: Mija is okay, but Donga would be read as DON GA unless hyphenated an Dong-a. --]
	::I agree. --]

	: Xaos, this may be the official policy now (in the past, it has been different), but most people are still writing Korean names with a hyphen (a search for "Kim Dae-Jung" at Google (English language pages only) gives 53,000 hits, a search for "Kim Daejung" about 300). It is Misplaced Pages practice to use most common version of names in the English language. For Korean names, I'd say these include hyphens. It could be that this use changes, as with the shift of Wade-Giles to Pinyin for Chinese name (Mao Tse-tung -> Mao Zedong). ]

	::Well, whichever form ends up being used for titles (or any given title), just include a redirect from the other form so the two can peacefully co-exist. --]

	: Sure, that goes without saying. ]

	All the English newspapers I have access to here use the hyphened form for personal names. So does the official English website for the government of Seoul. I can't tell you what the national site uses, as I can never connect. -- ] 02:44 Oct 22, 2002 (UTC)

	Some Koreans use hyphens, some don't. I don't see why we should ''impose'' anything, both ways are in use. The main thing is keeping the order of family name and first name right.
	As for 'official', the passport and birth certificate use two words for the first name, but Koreans don't like it. Also, we should respect the common spellings, so ''not'' write "Kim Daejung". --]

	:I agree with Kokiri: just as most people spell 김 as Kim, a few spell it as Gim. If we know whether a particular person prefers to use or not use a hyphen, then we should follow that person's preference. --] 01:30, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

	Naming conventions for all Koreans should go something like this:

	:'''Syngman Rhee''' (in ]: '''I Seungman'''; ]; ])

	With the popular if ugly and inaccurate rendering first and the (S)outh (K)orean (R)evised (R)omanization for purposes of uniformity and for those who do not know there are many ways of transliterating Korean. This system could be added to all pages without confusion. ] 05:45, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

	:In principle, I have nothing to object, but think about the following points: 1. readability (if I read an artcicle, doesn't all the extra information distract?); 2. ''in SKRR'' is pretty meaningless - the abbreviation isn't used very often. --] 09:45, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

	::If we could do this in as compact and readable way as possible, it might be acceptable...but I agree with Kokiri's point that we should not use an abbreviation that we made up or some rubric that is equally meaningless to the average reader. Here are 2 possible suggestions:

	::1. (cumbersome):
	::'''Syngman Rhee''' (]: '''I Seungman''' (]: 이승만; ]: 李承晚))

	::2. (less cumbersome but still awkward):
	::'''Syngman Rhee''' (]) (]: 이승만; ]: 李承晚))

	::...article text...

	===Alternate spellings===

	::"Syngman Rhee" is written as "Rhee Sygnman" in the ] order, and according to the ] would be spelled as "I Seungman."

	::For articles on North Korean personages, we should substitute ] romanization for the Revised Romanization of Korean (sorry, but we have to keep in line with Misplaced Pages's ] policy). I suppose the advantage of using the "Alternate spellings" format is that we could even respell these names according ''both'' romanization systems! --] 15:30, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

	== North Korean Romanization ==

	I think we shouldn't apply S.Korean Romanization System to N.Korea related terms. Currently I use the M-R alternatively. ] 07:37 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

	: Why not? ]

	: Perhaps for N. Korean words, we use M-R followed by S. Korean Romanization in parenthesis. Or the other way around. --] 08:37 May 2, 2003 (UTC)

	:This is a difficult subject...but if we stick as closely as possible to the NPOV policy, it might make sense to use M-R for the North, and the Revised Romanization for the south; or use RR for the south and both M-R and RR for the north. For place names especially, I am trying to use RR for the south and M-R for the north...thus: Gangweondo (남) and Kangwŏndo (북) for 강원도. (I know strictly in M-R, we write "ui" (not "ŭi") and "wo" (not "wŏ"), but that bugs me!) On the 2003 National Geographic map "The Two Koreas", M-R is used for the North and RR for the south, with diacritics retained in Shinŭiju and Wŏnsan. --] 13:02, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC) (I posted this a few days ago but forgot to add my signature.)

	== Suggestion about inserting ] and ] in Korean Entries ==
	* Hangeul's and Hanja's in the parenthesis '''( )'''.
	* Differenciate them by putting ''';''' between them.
	* Hangeul comes first.
	*'''?''' Should we put ] and ] link before each of them ? ? If we should, let's avoid ''in''s. (See below example.)
	*'''?''' If the transliteration differs from the official romanization, should we also put it beside them ?

	#'''?''' Roh Moo-hyun (]: 노무현 ; ]: 盧武鉉 ; ]: No Mu-hyeon)
	#'''o''' Roh Moo-hyun (]: 노무현 ; ]: 盧武鉉)<br>
	#'''?''' Roh Moo-hyun (노무현 ; 盧武鉉) maybe too ''simple''. To the readers who don't have any idea about korean characters may want to know about hangeul and hanja.<br>
	#'''x''' Roh Moo-hyun (In ]: 노무현 ; In ]: 盧武鉉) ''too verbose''
	#'''?''' Roh Moo-hyun (] ; ]) ''How about this? I've already tried this in ]''

	:: I think the last option, # 5, looks very asthetic. However, there is a danger that reader might mistake such links as links to pages titled in Han'geul or Hanja.

	:: It is beneficial to include official transliteration is also useful for those who can't read Han'geul and/or Hanja. --] 08:37 May 2, 2003 (UTC)

	Here is what I'm trying to do in my new articles:

	* The '''Gyeongbu Line''' ('''Gyeongbuseon''' (]; ]) in ])...
	* '''Gunsan''' (] (]) in ])...
	* The '''Samil Movement''' ('''Samil Undong''' (]; ]; "March 1st Movement") in ])...

	I put the Hanja in the Gunsan example in parentheses because otherwise it would read "(]; ] in ])...", which seems to suggest that the Hanja is Korean but the Hangeul isn't.

	What do you think?

	--] 01:30, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

	: Maybe use ] between Hangeul & Hanja, like:
	:: '''Gunsan''' (]/]) or '''Gunsan''' (] / ])
	: --] 04:52, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

	:: A slash is a possibility. Another one is to use separate parenthese for the Hanja, which is the standard practice in Korea; but then we would have nesting parentheses.... Example:
	::: '''Gunsan''' (] (]))
	:::--] 13:06, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

	----
	I think it's wrong to forego M-R. Since this wikipedia is for people who don't speak Korean, most materials they might read outside of here would use M-R, and they would get very confused about which is which... Besides, the official system distorts pronounciation so much. We don't need yet another pinyin...

	:I don't think M-R does a much better job of accurately representing Korean pronunciation! The ㄱ (g) in 가다 (gada) is definitely not an English "k" sound; also, while "eo" might look strange at first (but it exists in the English name "George"), what is a non-Korean speaker to make of ŏ and ŭ? Nevertheless, it might be useful to romanize very common or important terms in both systems, for the benefit of those who are familiar with the M-R spelling of a term.... There's a third system, by the way--the ]--which is used in academic literature, but frankly, I think it looks horrible, and in my opinion it does a much worse job of representing Korean pronunciation accurately than either M-R or RR. I believe it's mainly supposed to represent Hangeul spelling (not pronunciation) faithfully.... --] 01:30, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

	----

	==Names of Dynasties and Monarchs==

	Well, it's time to standardize these things, as has been done (more or less?) for pages on Chinese history. I am going through the Misplaced Pages now, looking for Korean topics to add to the ] page, and of course I'm finding a lot of inconsistency in how rulers are named, not to mention dynasties.


	First of all, I saw a page entitled ], but it is called the '''Yi Dynasty''' (이씨 (李氏; I Ssi) in Korean--Joseon was the name of the country. For naming individual monarchs, however, I suggest the following format, which does not use the dynastic name but the kingdom name:

	King/Queen X (the Great) of Y

	Where X = the ruler's posthumous name (Taejo, Sejong, etc.) and Y = the Kingdom's name (Silla, Goguryeo, Baekje, Goryeo, Joseon). The few Kings who have made the title "the Great" (Daewang (대왕; 大王)) will get the name inserted. Thus:

	* ] (there was one)
	* ]
	* ]
	* ]
	* ] (민씨; Min Ssi, ]'s wife; also the name of the wife of then-King Gojong)

	Finally, I have used the ] for the names of monarchs. There are 3 reasons for doing so: (1) It is now the official Romanization of South Korea, which has roughly twice the number of Korean speakers as North Korea; (2) It is easier to type than ] (which is still the official system in North Korea); and (3) it is now the mandatory romanization scheme in South Korean textbooks. As an alternative, we could add the McCune-Reischauer spelling after the Revised spelling, in the body of the article, and/or have entries in the McCune-Reischauer spelling with redirects to the Revised Romanized spelling.

	What do people think?
	--] 23:46, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC) (Revised 16 Oct 2003)

	: Yes for standardization. As for the Joseon Dynasty... move it and redirect the other way? Also, why not add a ''link'' to this page in the talk page of each Korea related article? I didn't know about this page when I started contributing... ] 11:30, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

	::That's a very good idea...but there are a lot of Korea-related talk pages! Perhaps as we edit a page, if we can remember to add a link back here on the talk page, then we can introduce the change that way, step by step. If someone else doesn't move the Joseon Dynasty page, I will try to do it some time this weekend... --] 17:23, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

	:Just for the record, we have (quite some time ago) established that ''Joseon Dynasty'' is the most common form. ] 10:07, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
	----

	==Serious Issues with WP naming==
	Lucky I found this page! Firstly: the dynasty is called ''Joseon'' dynasty, no idea why you folks think it should be ''Yi Dynasty''. This name was used by the Japanese when they colonized Korea, surely not the right choice. Maybe you should check your facts against some literature. Secondly, why do you refer to the ''East Sea'' as ''Sea of Japan''? Can't you folks accept that one place can have two names? Again, the Japanese colony is over... I suggest you use ''East Sea'' in a Korean context (and you can still link this to ''Sea of Japan'') if you are serious about becoming a real encyclopedia. Good luck with Misplaced Pages!

	:It was I who said it should be called the Yi Dynasty. I have seen the dynasty referred to many times in Korean as ''Issi'' (이씨; 李氏) or ''Ijo'' (이조; 李朝). Joseon was the name of the kingdom, and Yi was the name of the royal family. However, after doing some checking, I see that the naming of the dynasty is a contentious issue, and according to the Korea Information Service, "Joseon Dynasty" is the correct name. I will change references to the dynasty over to "Joseon Dynasty"--but it will take a few days to fix.

	:I might note, however, that you yourself (or someone else using the same URL) wrote an article on 15 Oct 2003 about ] in which you described him as the "26th king of the Yi Dynasty." (See the page history at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Emperor_Gojong_of_Korea&action=history .)

	:As for the East Sea/Sea of Japan issue, you obviously have not been following the ongoing ] over this issue. Yes, "East Sea" is an internationally recognized name for the body of water, and this has been reflected in recent edits.

	:Finally, if you see errors such as these, the beauty of Misplaced Pages is that you yourself can change them. --] 17:44, 27 Oct 2003 (UTC)

	Why has the dynasty often been called "Yi Dynasty" instead of the official name? It is because Chaoxian/Chosen/Joseon usually refers to Korea regardless of dynasty outside South Korea. So the specific dynasty is called by rulers' family name. Such a naming convention is common in East Asia. You would know 劉宋, 曹魏 etc.

	Then, why do South Koreans believe that "Yi Dynasty" is a derogative term? Here is my theory: In South Korea, "Joseon" is a historical term. It doesn't refer to modern Korea (they use "Han" instead) but only means the dynasty there. So South Koreans forget why the dynasty is called so. And some of them unwisely associate the name with their anti-Japanism. It is a pity that Koreans do not validate rumors by themselves but accept them without questioning. --] 01:23, 2 Nov 2003 (UTC)
	: A possible reason may be the fact that those few Koreans who insist on the use of "Jeoseon dynasty" may not be familiar with the meaning and the use of the word ]. Using this logic, King Gojong (a member of the Yi family) would have started as a monarch of the "Jeoseon dynasty" and died as an emperor (the only one, to be precise!) of the "Daehan Jeguk dynasty". While no-one in Korea would support the point of view that, say, the ] was named that way by the Japanese or any other foreign power, these few nationalists insist that in the case of Korea, scholary conventions should not be followed and the name of the country, rather than the name of the ruling family should be used together with "dynasty". However, they won't go so far and, for the sake of consistancy, speak of the "Austria dynasty" or the "Holy Roman Empire of German Nations dynasty". As it is the case with the rumor that the spelling of Korea was originally "Corea" before the Japanese colonial powers changed it, this is a nationalist point of view based on folkore and urban legends, shared by very few Koreans and no serious researcher of Korean studies. This point of view can thus safely be ignored. Note that this is fundamentally different from the case of East Sea/Sea of Japan, where both names (for political and historic reasons) are in use and are equally correct.

	::Gojong was not the only emperor of Korea: his son Sunjong was emperor from 1907 to 1910. He became emperor when Gojong was deposed by the Japanese. --] 01:44, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)
	::: You are, of course, correct. I apologize. The rest of the paragraph, however, seems to be valid.

	::::Valid in the opinion of the anonymous you and the person who wrote the paragraph. --] 22:05, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

	== Historical Periods ==
	I have checked on the web and found that both spellings ''Barhae'' and ''Balhae'' are used for the Korean 발해. Actually, the government brochure I checked uses ''Balhae''. -- ] 18:27, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

	* The historical periods are: Goguryeo (고구려); Balhae (or Barhae) (발해); Three Kingdoms (삼국시대); Goryeo (고려); Joseon (조선)
	* The Three Kingdoms are transcribed as: Silla, Goguryeo, Baekje.
	(This is how we commonly use it). --] 10:07, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Revision as of 15:42, 4 March 2004

This article covers naming conventions generally followed by editors of Misplaced Pages articles on Korean subjects. None of these rules are cast in stone, and not all contributors follow exactly the same standard, although we are gradually arriving at a general concensus. If you have any ideas, suggestions, objections, or comments, please feel free to participate in the ongoing discussion on this article's Talk page. If the concensus changes and this page has not been updated, please update the affected rules below.

Summary of conventions

Personal names: put the family name first; use a hyphen if commonly used by the person in question. Right now, the consensus is to follow the spelling of the name most commonly found in English, even if it does not conform to a standard romanization (thus, Kim Il-sung and Syngman Rhee instead of "Kim Il-sŏng" and "I Seungman"), but see also the discussion on the Talk page.
Romanization: we use the Revised Romanization of Korean for South Korean/Korean topics; we use McCune-Reischauer for North Korean topics
There is no agreement on how exactly to add the Hangeul and Hanja.
For rulers use this format: King/Queen X (the Great) of Y
The use of East Sea / Sea of Japan is disputed.
The historical periods are: Goguryeo (고구려); Balhae (or Barhae) (발해); Three Kingdoms (삼국시대); Goryeo (고려); Joseon (조선)
The Three Kingdoms are transcribed as: Silla, Goguryeo, Baekje.