Misplaced Pages

Archiving. While I realise that some of these discussions might have still been commented on, I don't believe they were useful, or were going to be. I have linked to often discussed topics abve. If any of these topics need to be discussed, feel free. Please start fresh. -- Ec5618 10:07, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

While I completely agree, not your decision to make; nor was archiving anything from October necessary. - RoyBoy 22:47, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Questions about 'Origins of the concept' sections

"For over a millennium" may be an inaccurate observation. Perhaps the 'Logos' concept of Heraclitus (535-475 BC) could qualify as an intelligent agent. Even the idea of the 'demiurge' from Plato (427-347 BC) seems to fit as an intelligent agent. Also, Aquinas' Fifth Proof referenced in the paragraph is based on Aristotle’s 'Prime Mover' (384–322 BC). Do these candidates fit ID’s concept of an intelligent designer? Seems to me they ontologically fall between an alien and a transcendent God.

If they do qualify as intelligent designers, it seems like the historical origin goes back more than 2,500 years. Therefore, changing "For over a millennium" to read "For over two millennia" seems justified.

Anyone have any thoughts?

--JosephCCampana 20:30, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Good point; a correction seems warranted, with the appropriate references you mention.Gandalf2000 22:06, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I had the concept going back to Plato when I originally wrote that section. David Bergan 06:12, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Bergan, why was the time frame pushed up? --JosephCCampana 21:27, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Couldn't tell you. I haven't been keeping a close eye on things for the last couple months. David Bergan 02:34, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Ok, sounds good. I'm new here, so do I check with anyone else, wait for more feedback, or do I just make the change myself? BTW G2000, Tolkien is great, just finished the Silmarillion last week. --JosephCCampana 01:55, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I would suggest something along the lines of "For millenia, philosophers have believed that the complexity of nature's "design" that operates for complex purposes indicates the existence of a purposeful supernatural designer/creator, .. ". Note 'For millenia', which puts no upper cap on the amount of time philosophers have held this beief, and 'believed' as opposed to argued. I'd prefer 'argued' if we could refer to specific people, books and ways in which the argument was made, otherwise, I feel 'believed' covers the concept without requiring more proof.

And feel free. -- Ec5618 09:36, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

New criticism section

I did some research finally on the question of the definition of intelligence (see some archive from a few months back) and added an appropriate section. I've included the references to Dembski's only forray into the subject of intelligence which derives from a tu quoque passing of the buck to SETI and forensic anthropology with another reference to a particularly good CSICOP article about the problems posed from people who actually study intelligence (most of them are in AI/Cognitive science fields). Joshuaschroeder 08:31, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

(Tu quoque. Nice, I had to look that one up. BTW, the wikipedia definition is a little weak on that term.) It seems that it's a little premature to identify pro or con arguments based on the definition of intelligence, unless there is clearer evidence that ID proponents or critics have spent more time on the topic. If so, by all means, flesh it out. Otherwise, it seems like it might be original research Gandalf2000 15:03, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I have referenced what is written on the topic in the article already. Is there anything in particular you think is "premature"? The whole point of the criticism is that the use of intelligence as a defining characteristic is "premature". It's a point that Dembski dismisses in a very off-hand manner and it's also a point that is made more poignant by studies of AI as the article shows. Joshuaschroeder 20:18, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

You're awesome Joshuaschroeder. - RoyBoy 00:15, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

This quote not only linked to the wrong source; it is out of context: "no pre-programmed device can be truly intelligent, that intelligence is irreducible to natural processes." Those are not Dembski's words, as implied; they are what the skeptics perceive to be an underlying assumption of ID. In other words, it's a straw man to knock down. (Some ID proponents would counter that humans are pre-programmed to be truly intelligent. Others may call the point a red herring; the question is not where intelligence comes from, it's where specified complexity comes from. Nevertheless, my primary point here is not rebuttal.) Please correct the quotation.--Gandalf2000 02:22, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I disagree that the quote is out of context. The paragraph is about what is perceived to be the argument by IDists. This is a description of that argument. If you think it is an incorrect description, show a citation, but right now you sound like you've pulled a bait-and-switch. Criticizing the point being made by claiming that specified complexity is really what is interesting is beside the point because the endeavor is called Intelligent Design. If it was called "Specified Complexity Design" then I'd agree with you. Joshuaschroeder 15:28, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

You miss my main point, which is that the source is incorrectly given for the quote. The article currently reads like this:

The criticism is a counter to Dembski's argument of irreducible complexity, namely that "no pre-programmed device can be truly intelligent, that intelligence is irreducible to natural processes."

But the quote is not from Dembski's argument, it is from an article explicitly summarizing what skeptics claim to be a presupposition of Dembski's argument. the The quote is actually from Taner Edis (Darwin in Mind: Intelligent Design Meets Artificial Intelligence. Skeptical Inquirer Magazine). Further, this sloppy quotation is also linked to the wrong footnote. The footnote takes you to Jonathan Wells ("The case for intelligent design in the classroom,"). I'm asking you to please fix both aspects of the incorrect citation, or remove it altogether. (Again, in my opinion, it appears to be a straw man in a popular magazine, not worthy of encyclopedic inclusion, but I believe to omit it altogether should come from consensus rather than just my opinion.)--Gandalf2000 19:03, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

We should not give the appearance that the quote is Dembski's. I have rewritten the sentence to that effect. However, your objection that it is a strawman in a popular magazine is meaningless in the face of the fact that most of ID discussions take place in such venues. Joshuaschroeder 19:51, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Lack of objectivity

The above comments from contributors such as Joshuaschroeder provide an example of the clear lack of objectivity in this article. The level of criticism contained in the article is disproportionate. For example, the sections on "Fine-tuned universe" and "Specified complexity" are comprised of mainly conceptual criticism over anything else. Is such thinly-veiled bias necessary? If I wanted a dedicated critique of ID, I'd visit talk.origins.org.

WP:RTA before making blanket objections. The article is extremely well-cited, and its content is very objective in that it presents both sides in their entirety. That covering the responses of mainstream science is more lengthy than presenting the assertions of ID proponents is attributable to the nature of ID — it's comprised of mostly criticisms of the science orthodoxy, aside from the inferences drawn by Behe and Dembski. Your objection has already been raised and addressed in the previous archive, 16. FeloniousMonk 04:42, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Both sides of the ID debate have lack of objectivity. How's that for a worthy admission? But realizing that, we're working together to try to provide clarity of each position based on the literature. The point is not to win the argument, but to represent both sides fairly. Yes, as FeloniousMonk says, reading the archives is a good idea. We have talked at length about how to restructure the article slightly, to more clearly represent the train of thought on each side.--Gandalf2000 19:12, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't say it “presents both sides in their entirety.” For instance, the ID claim for the fine-tuning of the universe is that certain physical constants being changed would prevent any form of physical life, not just life as we know it (see Mere Creation).

Amazing, considering that we only have one data point for so-called "physical life" and that is "life as we know it". Just how do you expect us to believe statistics based on the extrapolation from a single data point? Why would such speculative pondering be considered encyclopedic? Joshuaschroeder 21:51, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Whatever its faults, ID is also not an “argument from ignorance.” It isn't the mere fact that evolution doesn't have a means, it’s also the alleged barriers (e.g. irreducible complexity, chemical problems of abiogenesis) that exist in the natural world.

The claim, “By ID's own arguments, a designer capable of creating irreducible complexity must also be irreducibly complex” is a bit fishy, and the author provides no references (the same is true with "fundamental assumption of ID that every complex object requires a designer"). Behe himself (the guy who introduced irreducible complexity) concedes in Darwin's Black Box that maybe the designer is composed of something which could have come about naturally. This is part of the reason why the question of “who designed the designer” hardly leads into any circular reasoning or logical fallacies as the author claims. Another reason is that we can tell if something was designed without knowing where the designer came from. If astronauts found obelisks and nuclear power plants on Pluto, we can rationally infer design without knowing where the heck the designer came from, and this would certainly not involve using “circular reasoning” or other “logical fallacies.” The object of ID (in biology) is not the ultimate origin of every complex thing, just life on Earth.

While the author derides so-called "arguments from ignorance", he immediately appeals to an "argument from incredulity" with his hypothetical nuclear power plant on Pluto. Are we supposed to take this seriously? Joshuaschroeder 21:51, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

In short, the web article is heavily biased against intelligent design and makes frequent (though probably unintentional) distortions. Still, it seems difficult to get an unbiased article on this issue because it is so controversial—unless perhaps we get Del Ratzsch to do it (read the book The Battle of Beginngins: Why Neither Side is Winning the Creation-Evolution Debate).

--Wade A. Tisthammer (10/20/2005)

YEC's view of ID

I think we should have a section about how young earth creationism is disgusted by and seeks to separate itself from intelligent design as its bastard child. For example: ID and President Bush—the deeper issues, AiG’s views on the Intelligent Design Movement, and The god of an old earth David Bergan 21:55, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

This may warrant a passing mention in the ID article, perhaps in the section on the distinction between ID and creation science; but details belong in the article on young earthism, or maybe more specifically in an article about AIG. (In terms of distinction, one group seeks to reconcile theism with science; the other promotes a specific biblical interpretation regardless of science.) Having recently attended an AIG conference session, I can confirm their focus was on "millions of years" as the root of all cultural decline. I'm not sure they would even want to call ID a "bastard child", as they explicitly list evolution, theistic evolution, progressive creation, gap theory, day-age theory, as all being in the "enemy" camp.--Gandalf2000 22:36, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Answers In Genesis represents only one YEC pov. Plenty of other YECs have responded positively by getting behind the ID movement. The topic would be better placed at Intelligent design movement. That article already covers the fact that the movement has been selling ID as a 'big tent' to YECs, and that doing so is a specifically listed item in the movement's strategy. FeloniousMonk 00:13, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Agreed.--Gandalf2000 01:49, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Revert war

This keeps getting added back in:

Although many Intelligent Design advocates may believe in the Christian God, the theory is not limited to him. Intelligent design is not to be confused with Creationism. Creationism acknowledges the God of the bible and the genesis story and then uses science to prove biblical claims. ID is a movement that looks at the science purely, and comes to no other conclusion then there must be intelligence.

The reason I have removed it (and I assume others have as well) is the POV, especially in the last sentence. If we'd like to discuss this, let's do it here, but I am about to make a request for someone to be blocked if it keeps getting reverted without discussion. Jokestress 19:22, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Adding this passage has been the pet project of a particular anon editor who's been at it now for at least a week. Not only does the passage have pov issues, but it is factually incorrect. ID is by definition a form of creationism. Since the passage has no place in a factual, accurate article, myself and others have been removing it on sight. I've also left cautions about adding nonsense and pov at the various IPs associated with the anon, all to no avail. FeloniousMonk 19:30, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Not only incorrect and misleading, the passage sports bad grammar as well: "...conclusion then there ..." Calling something science does not make it so. It appears to me there is nothing much we can do other than watch the page and revert, unless and until we are reasonably certain the ip(s) is(are) not being used by other contributors. Unless we request a lock... KillerChihuahua

Even though the anonymous contributor's addition is poorly worded, I think I see his/her point. Perhaps the paragraph is just meant to illustrate that ID doesn't necessarily advocate a literal interpretation of the Bible. I guess it just has to do with one's opinion of creationism. Of course ID is a form of creationism, but the two aren't synonymous given the "Young Earth" connotation that many people seem to associate with creationism. Perhaps some kind of explanation could be given to the IPs instead of just a warning about nonsense. Or perhaps since I've just mentioned it on the talk page, that should be sufficient for anyone wishing to edit the article. Having said that, I still don't see a necessity for including the above paragraph in the article since I think than an intelligent (ha) reading of the article demonstrates that ID and Young Earth Creationism are not equivalent. Indeed, there is a sidebar listing the subpages in the "Creationism" category, and Young Earth Creationism is a separate article... imagine that. -Parallel or Together? 04:46, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

revert war response

I'm sorry the grammar is bad. I'll apologize for the mistakes. The concept however, is valid. Intelligent Design is constantly misunderstood by outside evolutionary onlookers. Intelligent design may be a type of Creationism, but only because they both believe in an intelligence. Here is a piece of an article insert to help you understand Intelligent Design and it's relationship to religion. I urge everyone to make this paragraph add on work. The Intelligent Design article can become misleading to outside readers looking for a good definition of the theory.

"A design inference is compatible with belief in a Creator, but intelligent design theory is limited to the observation and detection of design in nature, not the identification of the Designer. It draws its authority from investigation, observation and logical analysis per the scientific method - not from religious text. Thus, intelligent design is not creation science, although many creation scientists are also intelligent design theorists. Creation science derives its authority from the Genesis account, which the courts have held to be a religious text. A design inference is not "creation science" and has not been held by any court to be a religion."

http://www.sciohio.org/IDdefinition.htm

ID uses empirical observations to "prove" the existence of something that cannot be proven through empirical observation. As such, it is akin to flood geology, creation science, and other attempts to use science to "prove" the existence of the supernatural. As far as the last sentence above, ID is about to be held by a court to be a religion in Kitzmiller et al. v. Dover Area School District. Jokestress 21:36, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Evolution has many unanswered question. Can information in the form of DNA develop by itself? Where are the missing links? Why is there such a large fossil gap? It would be wrong to say that evolution is science because evolution comes to conclusions without fossil evidence. The only scientific conclusion that can be claimed is that all life forms adapt to their enviroments. It is not scientific to say that all life forms evolve because of the lack of scientific evidence.

Intelligent design did not begin with the inference or assuption of a creator, that is the theories conclusion. It does not hold to any one God but to an intelligence. Intelligent Design even holds that the intelligence could be alien. Intelligent design does not hold to any religious literature. It is near impossible to establish ID as a religion and you would be mistaken to think that it is. It is a misunderstanding and ignorance to the scientists that develop the theory. Have you read any books by the advocates? (unsigned User:71.141.147.37)

Can information in the form of DNA develop by itself?

Yes, through natural selection acting upon variation.

Where are the missing links?

They are hidden in places like museums and universities.

And detailed in websites and scientific journals. - RoyBoy 02:10, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Why is there such a large fossil gap?

Why do you think there are? Why do you think there should not be any?

Evolution is scientific. It does not only draw its conclusions on the fossil record, but also genetics and comparative morphology and the convergence of these three disparate lines of evidence. Thanks. (unsigned User:Jason Potter)

I formatted the above so people can follow it. Please sign entries with four tildes (~~~~) so everyone can follow the conversation better. Thanks! Jokestress 00:32, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Bloodwater 17:36, 22 October 2005 (UTC)I would have responded before but FeloniousMonk has a fetish for banning me from the discussion.

1.DNA comes about through natural selection? natural selection can only exist in the first place because of DNA. How you you suppose that a lifeform could exist without an instruction book? 2. According to any institution, missing links don't exist. I would be interested to hear of an example of a missing link in a museum. 3. As for fossil gaps, you need to read into your theory more. It is a widely known fact that there are many large fossil gaps.

The only thing scientific about evolution is the fact that all lifeforms "adapt" to their enviroments. Even creation scientists recognize this fact. User:bloodwater 23,october 2005(UTC)

Origin of life, Thomas R. Cech are places where you find information that might enlighten you. Then again, no amount of evidence can convince the willfully ignorant. Bill Jefferys 17:49, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't think you know what you're talking about. Each of your points has passed through these pages before.

1. Natural selection also works on other levels. Sand, for example could be seen as a progression toward rocks with fewer cracks in them (sand has few cracks, so it is not easy to break it). It is conceivable that a polymer that is able to rebuild itself if it is destroyed has advantages over polymers that are completely destroyed. Selection needn't imply a biological advantage.
2. Missing links do exist, because when they are found, they are no longer seen as 'missing', but rather as part of the fossil record. Several fossils of humanoids have been found, each being a missing link, linking us to earlier 'humans'.
3. Read the comment again. Fossil gap. 'Why do you think there should not be any?' Consider this: Tyrannosaurus rex lived on this Earth for rather a long time, yet we have only ever found 7 fossils. Can you not imagine that entire species could have died out before living long enough to leave any fossil evidence. Not every species has bones, nor do members of every species drown in layers of muddy, loose sand.

I'll not bore you with a long post, but this comment of yours is completely false:

The only thing scientific about evolution is the fact that all lifeforms "adapt" to their enviroments. Even creation scientists recognize this fact.

Still, there's no shame in not knowing. -- Ec5618 18:15, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Sand doesn't think. You are comparing non-living grains of sand with intelligence. Life is the only thing on earth that is known to increase the order around itself.

Missing links don't exist. No scientific institution has a missing link. I would like to know why you think so. Even USA today says, "the only problem with missing links is they are still missing." http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2005-08-08-oppose_x.htm

Every species on earth evovled, missing links should be the most abundant fossils on earth.

You are highly mistaken.You should go back to school. At least do yourself a favor and re-think the problems with evolution. There are problems with all theories but it is willful ignorance to believe that evolution doesn't have problems.

Regardless, we should not be discussing these things. Oxford scholar F.C.S. Schiller employed the term "Intelligent Design," in an 1897 essay, writing that “it will not be possible to rule out the supposition that the process of Evolution may be guided by an intelligent design.” It is obvious that Mr. Johnson, the supposed father of ID, only made the idea of Intelligent Design popular. It is not based on relgious assumptions and therefore not religious. It is misleading in the article to call it a "Christian movement." The movement is sustained by severeral former atheists and agnostic scientists of high education. These former atheists range from men like Phillip Johnson, Michael Behe, William Dembski, and Dean Kenyon, author of "Biochemical Predestiation," are all former atheists. Dean Kenyon was made popular by co-founding the popular theory of Biochemcial predestination in the 70's. His theory answers how DNA and life came to be naturally. Dean Kenyon was confident until he began to doubt his own book. The information added and subtracted from this article appears to be governed by evolutionists. I don't expect that any amount of evidence will pursuade you to add my piece into the article. I do hope that you have enough common sense enough to see that ID is not religious. The article is misleading when you tell the reading audience that ID is a "Christian movement." Lastly, if I do not reply after a little while, it's because FeloniousMonk decided to ban me again for discussing here. Bloodwater 18:27, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I'll not bother with you any more. Suffice it to say that I used sand as an analogy, not as an example of highly intelligent life. Missing links are missing because found links are no longer missing. Links that were missing are plentiful. Evolution has problems. For one, people seem be think it's hip to dismiss it offhand. -- Ec5618 18:44, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

We may have the same mentalies. I thought it was "hip," to dismiss ID or biblical creationism :)Bloodwater 18:50, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps, in some circles. However, most people who fail to appreciate creationism don't care about it enough to visit this page, let alone edit it, whereas we often see uninformed creationists come here to spout rhetoric and debunked arguments. I assure you, most of the editors here have been around long enough to have heard almost every argument ever made for ID, and know how to debunk it. -- Ec5618 11:35, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

ID is religious. The Discovery Institute's Wedge document makes this abundantly clear. Bill Jefferys 20:32, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

What religion does it adhere too? If you say Christianity, why? Because many Christians acknowledge it too? Bloodwater 00:45, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

How do you interpret the Wedge Strategy document's call for a "a broadly theistic understanding of nature?" What do you think theism is? Chopped liver? Bill Jefferys 23:42, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

ID is religious because religious men support it? take a look at the thread at the bottom of the page. Your objections are answered. Bloodwater 00:43, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

This is not an answer. What does "theism" mean? Answer the darned question. The thread at the bottom of the page does not answer this objection. Bill Jefferys 00:49, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Please observe Misplaced Pages:Civility. You raise a valid question, though.

ID as a philosopical concept needn't be defined by its proponents. As a movement however, it clearly is. And the fact that the movement refers to its basic premise as theistic is telling, and undeniably true. What that eventually means can be debated, but ID advocates clearly see ID as a vehicle for theism. What say you Bloodwater? -- Ec5618 11:35, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

ID as a movement and as it is understood right now is, as you agree, basically theistic. The fact that one might imagine some kind of airy-fairy purely philosophical intelligent design that was not theistic just moves the goalposts from what the real discussion is all about. (I don't think you can do this, and will elaborate below). I would put it this way:

The Discovery Institute and its fellows, starting with Phillip Johnson and continuing down the line through all of the major proponents of ID today, including Michael Behe, William Dembski, Jonathan Wells, and so on, the list is very long, is clearly the architect of Intelligent Design (with capital letters) as currently understood. It is the intellectual center of essentially all current activity about ID. Intelligent Design in this sense is a religio-political pseudoscientific movement. It is not an airy-fairy philosophical position, even if it were possible to construct one.

For political and legal reasons, the Discovery Institute has attempted to keep its theistic position under wraps; unfortunately for them, the Wedge document got leaked, and they did acknowledge it as theirs. So this kind of knocks the pins out of their attempts to forge a legal position that will pass First Amendment muster.

Now, as to the question about whether a purely philosophical nontheistic intelligent design (lower case) position can be constructed. I contend that it cannot be constructed. When you talk about 'intelligent design' this clearly entails an intelligent designer. Now the Discovery Institute says that they don't care about the nature of the intelligent designer. The reason why is clear: If they were to open that can of worms, they'd be in even greater legal jeopardy than they are now. But, pace the DI, there is no reason why we should not ask the question. Well, Michael Behe says in his book that "it might be space aliens." He doesn't believe it, but he mentions it. OK, could it be space aliens? I suppose that one might imagine that life on Earth arrived through the agent of space aliens, but even that might have religious implications, as the Raelian embrace of ID shows. But, let's ignore them, does this mean that one can have a nonreligious ID by invoking space aliens? I don't think so. For then one has to ask, who designed the space aliens? They must also be complex, for if they were not, some sort of blob-lifeform that arose spontaneously, this undercuts the ID argument that irreducible complexity (Behe) and complex specified information (Dembski) can't arise spontaneously, and the entire ID enterprise falls apart. So the aliens have to be IC and CSI, and invoking space aliens hasn't solved the problem. One ends up with a potentially infinite regress of us created by aliens created by aliens created by...

Unfortunately, this infinite regress has to terminate. The universe has a finite age, and thus one can only have a finite sequence of creating space aliens. Something has to have created the first space alien, and that something cannot be part of our universe. It has to be some sort of very powerful being external to the universe. According to Gonzalez and Richards' book, it has to be capable of creating fine-tuned universes. Sounds pretty much like a god to me. What sort of god is not clear (although one might be able to look at the kind of universe we have and make inferences...this would inevitably involve questions uncomfortable to most theists such as the Problem of Evil. A good case can be made for polytheism, given the data. But I digress...

Thus, while you are free to talk in the abstract about purely philosophical intelligent design positions that don't have theistic implications, in reality that dog don't hunt. Bill Jefferys 13:40, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

We've been through the NPOV cycle endless times before, discussed it at length and see nothing that has substantially change in the aryicle or with ID, other than someone now thinks it's clearly dominated by Darwinists. Based on that, I will revert.--CSTAR 00:40, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. This is probably the most common objection seen, and one raised invariably by ID proponents who show up here. The article's content well-supported by evidence and by policy. New arrivals merely resurrecting old objections should be directed to the archives, and perhaps have why that particular objection fails to hold water explained once to them. Beyond that, they're going to have to get used to having both the pro and con of ID enumerated. FeloniousMonk 01:25, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Maybe we can make a FAQ of common objections and link it from the top of the article? Jokestress 01:32, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Good idea. FeloniousMonk 02:03, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Ah, but there's the rub. The reason the objections keep coming is because the flaws in the article still exist. I fully agree that "having both the pro and con of ID enumerated" is great. But having the con enumerated and the pro obfuscated is another matter altogether.--Gandalf2000 04:08, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Flaws? Perhaps the flaw is with those who don't know about the material deciding what "enumeration" and "obfuscation" is in regards to these subjects. Joshuaschroeder 04:53, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

The flaws have to do with the tone, structure, and characterizations in the article. It's not necessarily the material, but the way the material is presented. Animus dominates the article, an attempt to put the most negative spin on every controversial or disputed assertion -- and this is particularly obvious not on issues of content, but implications of motive and character.

Big example #1: So what that many Christians support ID and look to other Christians for support of ID? It's a fact, but it's presented as a scandal.

How is it presented as a scandal? It is simply pointed out that while IDists claim an agnostic intent, it is an inescapable fact that they are Christian theists, and many of them were creationists until the ID movement caught on. So, please, give an example of how this is presented as a scandal. It looks more like you are just upset that the subject was brought up at all, which to me looks like you aren't familiar with the issues surrounding ID (since this particular subject is very important and is the crux of much of the current controversy). Joshuaschroeder 15:31, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Wow. They admit that presuppositions influence science. I see that many of the contributors have a strong anti-Christian bias, as revealed on their User pages and contribution history. But in this article I don't see attacks against ID and arguments for naturalism framed as attacks against Christianity and/or theism, though I imagine that this contributes heavily to their means and motivation.

Contributors' views (or lack thereof) have no bearing on the subject material of any article here on Misplaced Pages inasmuch as articles are supposed to be descriptions rather than theses. You may, of course, question the motivations of contributors and criticize particular contributions that smack of bias or lack of NPOV, but a blanket condemnation such as only serves to be inflammatory and doesn't help in the editorial process. Give specific examples or stop harping. Joshuaschroeder 15:31, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

The ID movement states that it is trying to get the public debate out of religion into the realm of science and philosophy. But that can't be right; they certainly must be scheming, corrupt back-room power-brokers instead. And the ID opponents, why, they're all motivated by pure science. They have no personal convictions or presuppositions at stake because they're inherently neutral and unbiased.--Gandalf2000 15:21, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

If you can manage to rewrite a passage or section of the article to be less hostile, please go ahead. If you can do so without stating infactualities, sugarcoating the truth, or turning arguments around on themselves, your edits should not be reverted.

However, you must have noticed by now that from time to time, people drop by this page, and claim it's biased, sometimes without even bothering to read the article. If these people have a point outside of general discontentment, they have not yet made it. -- Ec5618 15:58, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Apt words: "sugarcoating the truth". It seems the primary contributions have been sugarcoating and vinegar-coating....--Gandalf2000 06:16, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Intelligent design is not an assertion it is a philosophical hypothesis. This article is horrible and in no way should it be a featured article. Intelligent design is a philosophical hypothesis, not assertion, nor is it dogma. It always has been. Recently, in the United States and ONLY in the United States the hypothesis has been co-opted by Christians in order to spread their particular dogma of Christian creationism. Not only that, but Atheists have latched onto this movement to preach their gospel that intelligent design is an assertion and thus dogma. This is entirely ridiculous and very sad. Please talk to someone with a PhD in religion and/or philosophy and ask them to explain it to you. I'm not one of those people, but I do know that intelligent design as a concept is NOT an assertion, nor is it dogma. If you want to write an article about people who believe in the concept of intelligent design, GO TO THE THEIST PAGE. --Ben 00:59, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

If we're to be accurate, ID does not qualify as a philosophical hypothesis in any meaningful sense of the term. ID offers only philosophical objections to evolution, not any positive hypothesis for the intervention of a designer. ID rests on an inference. That inference asserts that a certain premise is true — that life is too improbable to have arisen naturally. From this premise and inference the leap is made that the universe and the life contained therein are the result of some unidentified intelligent being performing some undefined action at some unspecified point in time. There is no hypothesis there, and what's is there is insufficient to discuss its scientific merit seriously, much less enumerate in the article as some "hypothesis."

Yes, ID proponents insist that their concerns are scientific and educational. And they say that their motives, wholly religious in nature according to their own statements, are irrelevant to the merits of their arguments. But the problem is there is no argument to ID, at least in the scientific sense. ID's entire contribution to science to date is an unsupported conclusion drawn from an inference that rests on a shaky premise, accompanied with a collection of criticisms of the scientific method and community.

The fact that the leader of the movement is a retired law professor shows the complete absence of scientific substance of their "hypothesis." Johnson may be an expert in law but he's an obvious dilletante in biology and science. The few ID proponents with legitimate science credentials have never produced scientific data to support their claims.

So in the absence of scientific accomplishment, ID's arguments rest solely on its proponents motives and goals, as revealed through their own pronouncements. Considering this, trying to write an article about ID without mentioning its' proponents and their motives and goals is like trying to write an article on Catholicism that ignores the priesthood. In that sense, I suppose you were right to advise us to consult a professor of religion to assist with writing the article.

Since philosophy has been brought up, Hume gutted the design argument in his "Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion" a point worthy of a sentence or two in the article I think. FeloniousMonk 03:18, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I've added to the introduction. It is ok with me now.--Ben 02:05, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

FeloniousMonk could you explain what is factually inaccurate and pov about my addition to the disambiguation intro? Thanks. --Ben 04:32, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

No problem. The dablink template you created is pov as well as factually inaccurate because your template stated that the article is "about the American idiom Intelligent Design which concerns only anti-evolutionist Theists and teleological arguments for their beliefs." You're implying that there's another non-"American" form of intelligent design being proffered by non-"anti-evolutionist Theists." ID is a uniquely American product. There is only one "Intelligent Design" — the one being peddled by Behe, Dembski, Johnson, et al. Your template was significantly less helpful than that it replaced. FeloniousMonk 04:49, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

You say yourself that ID as the article describes it is a uniquely American product, so no problem there (though, for some reason, you mention it sarcastically as if there was a problem.) Secondly, there is another form. "Intelligent Design" as the article describes it is an idiom, in that the literal meaning of the phrase "intelligent design" is removed from the description. Homophora might be a better term rather than idiom. You admit as much yourself when you say ID is "the one being peddled by..." That is an idiomatic description, based on culture, not a literal description based on the meaning of the phrase "intelligent design" (in context of course). An example of another form would be someone who believes an intelligent designer designed evolution. This means these people believe in an intelligent designer and accept the theory of evolution. Deists believe this.--Ben 05:07, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Again, your template was significantly less helpful than that it replaced; it muddled the issue. A disambiguation template is supposed to simply do just that, disambiguate. Not editorialize or expound. And you're missing the essential point that though there may be many sorts of people who believe in ID, there's really only one sort that is responsible for promoting it. Take a guess. FeloniousMonk 05:16, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Patently ridiculous. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia. My addition directed people interested in "intelligent design" in the literal sense to the appropriate page: Theism, and disambiguated the topic by providing key differences between the article's write-up of Intelligent Design and Theism. Yours does not. This article itself borders on violating many Misplaced Pages policies, including original research, personal essay, and propaganda machine. This can be sorted out by others. I only want to provide disambiguation to direct people to the appropriate topic. Maybe you forgot to read my previous post: Deists believe in both intelligent design and evolution. In fact, the link I provided even mentions intelligent design in the question about Deism and evolution and further shows that intelligent design and deism are indeed frequently confused, saying "Intelligent Design Theory" is so-called "Creation Science" masquerading as Deism."--Ben 05:38, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I apologize, my comments about the article violating Misplaced Pages policies was mainly done out of frustration. It is not integral to my point and I needn't have said it. I do believe from what I have read that it seems to me that the style of writing is very argumentative, but this for the most part is irrelevant to my main point about disambiguation. I do not know enough about the ID movement, nor have I examined the entire article closely enough to determine whether it violates policy. Note that of course I still maintain that my introduction is needed, helpful, neutral, and factual as per the reasons described above.--Ben 06:45, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

"Defining Intelligent Design as science"

I have a few quibbles with this section of the article. I've meant to bring this up before, but as active as life can be I haven't gotten around to it, and as active as this page is it's hard to keep up! Sorry in advance if these have been dealt with. Paraphrasing, the section first defines science must be, and then goes on to point out how ID doesn't seem to keep up. It says that scientific theories must be Consistent (internally and externally). I take issue to the "externally" bit. Quantum mechanics and relativity seem to be at odds on certain things, though they are both good science. I don't believe that a scientific theory must be necessarily progressive, either, although it certainly helps. "I don't know" is a perfectly respectable scientific answer. If the previous theories (in this context, evolution) is somehow totally wrong, because evolution is such an encompassing field, no rival "theory" could really match it even though it's wrong. As for a theories tentativeness, I believe this requirement merely blurs theory and movement - which is for another section. What science says and what the "scientists" say are two different things.

I realize a lot of scholarship went into the making of this article, and I do believe it is one of the better ones (it cuts through the hype and gets to the heart of the matter, IMO). I realize these arguments sort of take the bite out of endnote #21. In endnote #25 I'd like to see a link for better support, because I don't think just an assertion would convince the jaded fencesitter. JustSomeKid

Thanks for the praise and the thoughtful comments and criticism. I think most of your concerns mentioned above are dealt with by the section's second paragraph (not counting the bulleted list):

"For any theory, hypothesis or conjecture to be considered scientific, it must meet at least most, but ideally all, of the above criteria. The fewer which are matched, the less scientific it is; and if it meets only a couple or none at all, then it cannot be treated as scientific in any meaningful sense of the word."

I agree, clearly "I don't know" is indeed an acceptable answer in science. But "I don't know, so it must be the result of supernatural intervention" is not. That Quantum mechanics and relativity appear to be not externally consistent on some points is an exaggeration; both are wholly consistent within the framework of empiricism and naturalism. Finding "gaps" in our current understanding doesn’t give a scientist carte blanche to fill it in with whatever she feels like and then call it science. Obviously there are plenty things we cannot yet fully explain — but science doesn't rush to find a way to explain it immediately with supernatural forces or other intellectual crutches. This goes to why any theory must be externally consistent; if it is internally consistent but externally inconsistant with other widely accepted theories, then it can be said to be less scientific than the alternative explanations that are equally internally consistent and more externally consistent. Keep in mind that the concept of both science and theory are a spectrum in which some explanations meet more of the criteria, others meet less. Those that meet none or one or two cannot b said to be scientific in any really meaningful way. Clear as mud, right? FeloniousMonk 18:03, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Have you ever read a book by an Intelligent Design advocate? What book? If you havent, that would explain your misunderstandings. But first, have you? Bloodwater 18:54, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I've read most of the books from ID proponents, at least the major ones. I've read Behe's Darwins Black Box and Science and Evidence for Design. I've read Dembski's The Design Inference, The Design Revolution, Intelligent Design: The Bridge between Science and Theology, No Free Lunch, and the minor articles he's written. Also Johnson's Darwin on Trial, Reason in the Balance, Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds, The Wedge of Truth and the many articles he's written. And I've read the FTE's Of Pandas and People. I've also read Meyer's ID legal guidebook and most of the articles, blogs and videos on the subject. The majority of these books I own.

And you? Read many of these? How about any actual science books? Those by ID observers and critics? FeloniousMonk 19:22, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

That's very impressive but I don't understand how you can disregard it as science. Clearly it is scientific and it is based on scientific notions. How could you even begin to call it "religious," if it is not based on any know religion, but science instead. The only response to this that I have seen is that religious men support it. This reason can not be used to say that it is "religious." It seems like many people would throw down ID because it believes in an Intelligence. If science did extol the idea that there is a God, so be it.

Have you seen any DVD's by "Illustra Media?" That is a very interesting DVD series if you haven't already seen it. http://www.illustramedia.com/ 71.141.150.133 20:25, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I've seen two videos from Illustra: Unlocking the Mystery of Life, which I watched when it was shown on PBS, and The Privileged Planet, which I watched during the stink about it being shown at the Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History.

It's convenient that you should bring up Illustra Media, because it illustrates the problem here: Illustra Media is merely a front group for a creationist production company called Discovery Media . Now if ID is strictly a scientific endeavor as you and other ID proponents claim, why are creationists producing their videos? Why is it largely only the Christian right that is underwriting the ID movement? It's because ID is a scientific veneer over a religious agenda. Every single leading ID proponent has publicly admitted as much. This is cited in the articles here. Dembski, Behe, Johnson, Meyer, Wells... each has proclaimed to the faithful that they are promoting a religious idea in ID and are serving a religious goal in so doing. Until one looks beyond the Discovery Institute's pre-packaged press release-ready version of events, mistaking ID for genuine science is not uncommon. In fact, that's just the way it's designed. FeloniousMonk 22:17, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Trying to use scientific observations (such as the complexity of life) and then making untestable assertions that it was designed is not science. If you cannot test it, and/or it does not make testable predictions, you cannot call it science. To add insult to injury ID doesn't really explain origins; since it can include advanced aliens, but that doesn't specify how they did it. And that leaves the question where did the aliens come from? If one falls back to god, that doesn't explain anything. "God did it" is not scientific explanation. Understand? The premise of ID cannot be scientifically examined; even if its inferred from selective scientific evidence. - RoyBoy 22:26, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

For the record, User:71.141.150.133 is User:Bloodwater when he's not signed in. FeloniousMonk 22:44, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Again Monk, it is very true that Creationists support ID. It also may be true to say that many Creationists make videos under "Illustra Media." This is your proof that ID is Religious? If they use honest science to prove a point, that makes it religious? ID may have been made popular through Creationists organizations but the ideas did not orginate through them. The debate of intelligence in the universe can be traced to Plato and Aristotle. If Creationists thought that they should focus on science rather then the bible, how does that make ID religious? If science says yes, let it be, if that is the truth. If science says no, let it be, if that is the truth. I'm not positive but ID (the modern movement for court house purposes) may have been designed to not conform to any religion to make it easier to read about. For some reason, people are turned off when you talk about a particular God. For these reasons, ID is not religious. I go back to my previous statement,the only evidence you have for ID being religious is that religious men support it. It conforms to no religion but relies on scientific observation to infer intelligence.

One of the strategies employed by folks pushing these agendas is to utilize the fallacy of amphiboly: Confusing the issue by using language in an ambiguous way. In this case, it is by claiming that the ancient design argument is the same as ID.

It is true that the idea of a "design argument" is old, even ancient. And the term "intelligent design" has been used (rarely) before 1990. But "Intelligent Design" (note the capitalization) in the sense being used now is a brand-new religio-political pseudoscientific movement, inaugurated by Phillip Johnson and the Discovery Institute, and designed to circumvent the Supreme Court's ruling in Edwards v. Aguillard that ruled out earlier attempts to get creationism in and/or evolution out of the public school curriculum. If that decision had gone the other way, there would be no discussion of ID today. The strategy (devised by Johnson just after Edwards v. Aguillard) is to pretend that ID is a purely scientific, nonreligious alternative to evolution by not mentioning who the "designer" is supposed to be. But it won't wash.

The Discovery Institute, principal architect of ID, let the cat out of the bag when it put together the Wedge strategy document. This document makes absolutely clear not only the religious foundations upon which ID lies (in its call for "a broadly theistic understanding of nature"), but also the fact that ID is not a scientific, but a religio-political movement. The fact that there has not been any real research published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, even according the most liberal timetable in the Wedge Strategy document, is ample proof of this. Where is the peer-reviewed research? Why have almost all of the resources of the Discovery Institute in particular and the ID myrmidons in general been devoted to publishing popular books about their non-existent science and pushing political agendas, instead of doing the "dirty work" of actual research? The conclusion is obvious to those that have eyes to see and ears to hear. Bill Jefferys 00:56, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

To answer RoyBoy, ID can indeed be tested. Evolution, on the other hand, can also be tested the same way. How can ID be tested? To answer this question, you need to understand what ID advocates base their conclusions off of. A main point is that Information can not come from nothing. Information can not develop by itself. Evolution says that Information can develop by itself through a series of mutation. Of course, life must first exist for mutation to occur. An element of chance or natural law must be employed to explain the origin of life. According to Gitt Werner, now a retired professor at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology, "there is no known law of nature, no known process and no known sequence of events which can cause information to orignate by itself in matter." Dr. Gitt has also written some Creationist papers. What he says stands. There really is no natural known law that produces information. If you can identify one, I would like to hear it. Also, if you identify one, you had better report it, because the scientific community has no knowledge of it. ID is testable because you can test to see if information can indeed develop through through nothing. So far, science has not observed this. Since science has not been able to observe this you can conclude that an intelligence did indeed create some intelligent aspects of life. You can conclude this because we already know that there is no law or process in which information can originate. Darwin understood that for his theory to be valid, you need transitional forms in the fossil record. We have increased our fossil record. Still, we have not found any transitional forms in the world. All creatures evolved, why can't we find any transitional forms? These transitional forms should be the most abundent fossils but they are not. In fact, "the missing link is still missing." Can we now conclude that Evolution is not scientific? Gitt werner- http://de.wikipedia.org/Werner_Gitt , http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/w_gitt.asp Bloodwater 23:43, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, Felonious Monk. I somehow missed the For any theory, hypothesis or conjecture to be considered scientific, it must meet at least most, but ideally all, of the above criteria. when scanning through the second paragraph. But I'd still like to see the last point, about ID's tentativeness, omitted because scientific ideas themselves don't declare themselves infallible, though it's proponents might declare it so. I'm going to go ahead and omit it for now.

Bloodwater, if any concept calls for the special creation of the universe and humanity as we know it, eschewing natural causation for a supernatural intelligent entity (i.e. a deity), then it is inherently creationism, and inherently religious. It's just a circumlocutory way of saying "God did it". This isn't the evolution article. Please don't be an antievolution troll. -JustSomeKid

It's widely accepted that any scientific theory is always tentative... What objection is there to noting that? It's not as if it's original research. FeloniousMonk 01:21, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Bloodwater you are absolutely correct, information does not come from nothing. How does this impact abiogenesis and evolution? Furthermore how does that permit ID to be tested? At best, it is criticism of abiogenesis and evolution; rather than a test.

As to transitional fossils, we have found some, and evolution does not require "transitional forms should be the most abundent fossils". That is a amateurish statement based on a simplistic understanding of evolution and it exposes your lack of research. I have to cut and paste my response from the archives:

It is clear your point is invalid. Evolution requires many transitional forms; but evolution also says transitional species have small populations, have a short timespan (relative to successful species since they go extinct), and indeed because they are unsuccessful, more likely to be eaten/captured by predators/scavengers. So logic indicates low fossil frequency in comparison to successful species with much larger populations, and much longer timespans. Hence, more transitional forms does not guarantee more transitional fossils... and I don't recall insulting you Djacobs. - RoyBoy 800 00:15, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

To proclaim there is no transitional fossils it to make a dishonest argument and to invite ridicule. As to information, you should familiarize yourself with a thing called physical information. When a sun explodes; that creates a whole lotta different/new information... depending on your perspective. This means, just to be crystal clear, ANY interaction involves information... information can be lost, gained, changed, removed, added, scrambled by any number of things. Natural selection through variation is a proven mechanism to retain novel, new, different information if its useful or benign. And yes, if you weren't aware, a gene doubling itself is an increase in information in every sense of the word. If you think information is simply a byproduct of conscious beings; your definition is a tad on the narrow side of reality.

I'm happy you have some interest in sciences, I'd invite you to read material by those who engage in science as a profession; not as a means to a religious agenda. - RoyBoy 01:52, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

It's the proponents of theories that aren't tentative. But the underlying idea is always tentative if one is capable of doubting it. Dembski believe false negatives can be gained by applying his filter - isn't this an example of uncertainty? How isn't ID tentative? That it's proponents have zeal do not reflect the theory. -JustSomeKid

Dembski is absolutely clear that his Explanatory Filter does not produce false positives (and a true positive--Intelligent Design Detected--is the only thing he cares about). He claims that his EF has detected ID, and he claims that it cannot be a false positive. This doesn't sound tentative to me. Bill Jefferys 14:22, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Interesting news from the uncommondescent.com archives

While conducting my usual prowls of Dembski's blog, uncommondescent.com, for useful ideas and content, I came across some very interesting recent comments posted there involving this Misplaced Pages article and particular editors here. It seems there's a number of ID proponents there not just discussing this article there, but coordinating the conducting of the recent pov campaign we've been experiencing here . It's with no small modesty that I note that I am mentioned personally (comment #44) in very flattering terms.

This goes a long way to explain the seemingly coordinated manner in which some of these anon (and registered) editors insert pov content. Conducting a coordinated campaign to insert highly-pov content is by definition an act of bad faith. I've correlated the usernames of several users there to editors here:

• 70.128.58.87 (talk · contribs) is "higgity" at uncommondescent, see post #47
• 66.69.216.76 (talk · contribs) is "DaveScot" at uncommondescent, see posts #22, 29, and others. He's been active at William A. Dembski
• Swmeyer (talk · contribs) is "MWC" at uncommondescent, see posts #5, 8, 14, 37, and others. He was active at all ID-related articles.

It's likely I'll be able to identify the other users there that have been active here in pushing pov content and otherwise being disruptive. I'd rather give them an opportunity to come clean here and have a fresh start instead of outing them cold.

Performing a google site search of uncommondecent.com for "wikipedia" yields some very interesting results, not all of which I've read, but I'm sure you here will find time to: Correlating comments and users to to pov and other disruptive incidents here isn't hard, so have fun.

Again, for those of you at uncommondecent.com reading this, we're on to you. Conducting a coordinated campaign to insert highly-pov content is by definition an act of bad faith. Any further coordinated pov campaigning from your group there will not be tolerated here. FeloniousMonk 06:32, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the links. I hadn't read much of Dembski's blog before--and the lively feedback there. It's quite interesting.--Gandalf2000 10:18, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

But as to POV issues, it sounds like you're trying to make a scandal where there isn't one.--Gandalf2000 10:18, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not surprised in the least, and have always assumed discussions like these were going on. The same happened to Flying Spaghetti Monster, though in a much more obvious manner (obviously). This is not a scandal, though it does effectively reek of sockpuppetry.

The forum is funny read, nonetheless. The notion that evolution is unfalsifiable is painfully pervasive. And I had a good chuckle at Forum discussion should reinforce the 'scientific' theoretical value of ID while avoiding religiously drawn 'conclusions'.

The Nobel prize for medicine came up, as well. Apparently, someone is happy to note that the controversial cause of ulcers turned out to be truth, in the end. ID will surely follow suit. A geniune new idea will win through if it has merit. Merit indeed. -- Ec5618 11:35, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

The links to the contributions of the editors I provided, corellated to their posts at uncommondecent.com — something each reader will have to do on their own, show that they conducted a coordinated pov-pushing campaign at this article and at Dembski's. Doing so violates a number of the policies, guidelines and precepts we all are supposed to accept and abide by at Misplaced Pages.

Now you may not find that alarming, being that your pov is in synch with theirs and you've made many of the same objections and edits, and since you've not dedicated the hours to research and build a factual, well-rounded and well-supported ID article. Or experienced the frustration and abuse of trying to keep it that way. So it's not surprising it's no scandal to you. But to those here who hold WP:FAITH and WP:NOT in high regard, finding Bill Dembski's personal posse (apparently with his tacit consent) conducting a broad, organized pov campaign at this and other ID-related articles is indeed a scandal. Luckily it's one we don't have to tolerate. FeloniousMonk 15:27, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

A bunch of people saying "we see problems with this article, let's go try to fix them" is not scandalous at all. That's exactly the same reaction I had when I first read the ID article, so I'm not surprised to see a group of people with the same response. As to background, I have more background in philosophy than science, as you may notice that this is the area where my contributions have focused. So, to your point, I am taking the time to research before I edit.--Gandalf2000 16:06, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, they're saying quite a bit more than that. The thread clearly shows that they disagreed with the way NPOV policy is implemented and that they intended to subvert it.

As I've noted before, I appreciate your dedication and adherence to the project's policies and guidelines. FeloniousMonk 16:32, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm glad we have mutual respect. I just don't see their efforts as any more inflammatory than other typical wikipedia efforts on controversial issues. Obviously, some of them don't "get it" when it comes to making edits and participating in the discussion here. But they'll learn. (Hopefully, the first thing they learn is how to create a user account and log in.)--Gandalf2000 05:11, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

By the way, 70.128.58.87 (talk · contribs) is actually crandaddy, see #42, #44 (the flattering post), etc. Higgity is only quoting post #42. xetrov_znt 18:50, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Organized and coordinated? Maybe FeloniousMonkey should check out the wiki article on paranoia. --DaveScot

Paranoia?

Please, DaveScot, aka User:66.69.216.76 no personal attacks. --CSTAR 23:04, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree, it was haphazard. - RoyBoy 23:45, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

But is it paranoia if they're really out to get you?--Gandalf2000 05:13, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Removed personal attack, as per own request DaveScot, feel free contribute, assuming you can leave your indignation and contempt behind. But please observe WP:Civility and WP:NPOV. -- Ec5618 15:03, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks but no thanks. I have no desire to argue with leftwing POV warriors in this forum. I find it more effective to work to get representatives that agree with me into public office. Rest assured the Supreme Court won't be using this wiki article when deciding the ID question. See you there. -DaveScot

Leftwing POV warriors? "representatives that agree with me"? Supreme Court? Sounds like the Wedge strategy come home to roost. Joshuaschroeder 17:53, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Rather than comment further on DaveScot's last remark, I think it should be higlighted by placing it in a special frame box like this: <blockquote style="background: white; border: 1px solid black; padding: 1em;"> Blah </blockquote> . It will look like this

Blah

--CSTAR 18:03, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

So much for ID being a strictly scientific endeavor. So the way for ID to win intellectually is to win politically. We owe a big thanks to DaveScot for teaching us that ID is simply a political struggle between insurgents and the establishment. And also for convincingly and conclusively confirming that the Wedge strategy is well-understood by ID's lower ranks as well. FeloniousMonk 20:15, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

We really shouldn't gloat of course. An editor came, he was wrong, or at least unable to express himself. We have learned nothing we didn't already know, and DaveScot probably hasn't been convinced by our arguments. In a while, another editor will drop by, and we won't even be able to use DaveScot's comments to convince the new editor that ID is horse poo. There will always be another DaveScot, and this circus will start up again.

Though I'll admit, it feels good to see someone admit to the world that he is wrong, even if he can't admit it to himself. Yes DaveScot, run. Darn those other editors, and their leftwing POV warrior-ness. Go talk to the ignorant people who truly believe that there was ever an ark carrying animals and concentrated food, the evidence be damned. -- Ec5618 20:43, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm done gloating. Can we file this discussion away somewhere dark now, please? -- Ec5618 20:43, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

No surprise, you find people on both sides saying the issue is primarily political, since ideas have consequences. If DaveScot fails to engage in the discussion, to me he is uninteresting. Meanwhile, scientists of all stripes try to form coherent, intellectually honest theories, taking into account various evidence and various presuppositions. That's what captures my attention.--Gandalf2000 20:58, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Just for that, I'd like to buy you a drink. Cheers. Happy to have you. -- Ec5618 21:12, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Second that! You both deserve a round. Hey Ec, tell us what happened at the FSM article... you said it was similar to this situation, but worse. I seemed to have missed that one and am curious. FeloniousMonk 21:19, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

The FSM article was, as was inevitable, listed on a website (BoingBoing) which invited repetitive vandalism. On top of that, there was a great influx of people from Uncyclopedia, all of whom insisted on messing up the article, Uncyclopedia style (Along the lines of I was touched by his noodly appendage, and am now carrying his child/brood. Tell all.). It seems to have cooled down a little recently (knock on wood) but luckily several editors are keeping an eye on it. -- Ec5618 21:33, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

LOL! This is so funny. Tell me, who is the complainant and who is the defendant in Dover? Anti-religion zealots are the ones that politicized this matter. These people are so driven by their hate of religion they can't even remember who sued who. Amazing. FeloniousMonk wears his hate of religion on his sleeve. Him editing this article is the classic fox guarding the henhouse. An honest person holding such bias would recuse himself. What's really comedic is 80 years ago the ACLU sued to allow both viewpoints to be taught and now they're suing to censor one of them. I guess times really do change. But it doesn't matter. Justice eventually prevails. Ain't America great that way? --DaveScot

Substantiation for Criticism

The following statement has no attribution: ID "...has been categorized by the mainstream scientific community as creationist pseudoscience or junk science..."

For this harshly-worded critique to be attributed to the "mainstream scientific community", there should be authoritative quotes from a representative body of the scientific community, using the terms "pseudoscience" and "junk science". (NCSE doesn't count.) --Gandalf2000 09:20, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I'll agree a source would be nice. For now though, note that pseudoscience is any body of knowledge, methodology, or practice that is erroneously regarded as scientific. The reference does state that "Creationism, intelligent design, and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life or of species are not science because they are not testable by the methods of science.". So, in effect, the source does state ID is pseudoscience. The 'junk science' label was added recently, and I'll remove it, as it might have been offensive without a source. -- Ec5618 11:35, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

The quote is fine. But it would still be useful to see the loaded term "pseudoscience" being used by a representative body of science, since that is the specific claim in the article.--Gandalf2000 05:00, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Why doesn't the NCSE count? --JPotter 16:31, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

NCSE is focused on this specific debate and could be considered partisan, rather than being an organization that represents the scientific community in general. Such a source preferably has a history preceeding the controversy, like AAAS or NAS.--Gandalf2000 05:00, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

So what if the NCSE is focused on this specific debate? Who considers them partisan? Other partisans? The real question should be is if any nonpartisans in the scientific community have voiced their concerns about whether the organization should be seen as representing the community in general. The onus is on you to give that citation. Joshuaschroeder 06:05, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Certainly NCSE has a place within the scientific community, but there is a specific definition for that term, and it's broader than NCSE. In any case, the point is not whether some people within the scientific community have called ID "pseudoscience" and "junk science"; it's whether an authoritative body representing the scientific community has used such words, as that's the (disputed) point in the article.--Gandalf2000 16:00, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Rewrite section

I'd like to bring this section to everyone's attention, and suggest it be rewritten. While the section should simply point out that intelligence cannot be objectively observed, it seems to ramble on to drive the point home.

For example:

".. without ID offering what the criteria for the measurement of intelligence should be."

"How this appeal is made and what this implies as to the definition of intelligence are topics left largely unaddressed."

These lines seem to be criticising ID, instead of making note of notable criticism.

Let's wiki ! -- Ec5618 11:35, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Is it incorrect to state that ID doesn't offer criteria for the measurement of intelligence?

Is it incorrect to state that ID doesn't describe how an "appeal to designing intelligence" should be made?

I'm all for being balanced, but I fail to understand how facts with regards to the ID movement as the ones you outlined are considered rambling. Joshuaschroeder 14:54, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I realise I am not making myself very clear, but this section needs work and has gotten very little since its insertion into the article.

I do not dispute the content of the section, but rather the tone. It is one thing to suggest that ID advocates have no real benchmark for intelligence, but quite another to heckle ID.

Also, the fact that ID is not science has been repeated throughout this article several times. While it is an important point, and is clearly often misunderstood or denied, it needn't permeate every section of this article.

I've tried to rewrite individual lines, but I was displeased with the result, so I decided to bring it to everyone's attention. Better wording might be:

"Intelligent Design assumes that intelligence can be objectively observed or measured by studying a product or design. William Dembski, for example, has claimed that "Intelligence leaves behind a characteristic signature." He also suggests that many branches of science make implicit use of such a signature: "in special sciences ranging from forensics to archaeology to SETI (the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence), appeal to a designing intelligence is indispensable." While this characteristic signature is often alluded to, no way to measure or define it has yet been proposed."

Obviously the last line needs to be clearer, and the fact that this is not a hallmark of transparent science should be included. I hope I've made my objections clear. Editing help is welcome. -- Ec5618 00:10, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I appreciate your honesty in not being able to rewrite the paragraph. I have wrestled with the wording for about one month now and this is the best I could do, but I was hoping including the best version I could come up with would encourage other editors. Your version not only suffers at the end, but also at the beginning. Intelligent Design, as a worldview or way of thought, doesn't "assume" anything. The people who make arguments about Intelligent Design are the ones who do the assuming. More than that, I think what is assumed is that intelligence can be measured, nobody is saying HOW it is to be measured. This needs to be clear from the paragraph, and it looks like your edit doesn't do that. But you may be on to something. Let's try to work with it. Joshuaschroeder 06:05, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Doesn't the concept of ID, (as science as it were) depend on the existance of (undiscovered) physical proof? Doesn't ID itself then assume that intelligent can be measured? I'm willing to lean your way though, however stating that advocates are wrong is obviously less potent than stating the concept itself is based on a false or questionable assumption.

I've tried to reduce the paragraph to its basics. Once we know what the section should say, and in what order we can start to flesh it out. How's this:

"Intelligent Design advocates assume that intelligence can be objectively observed or measured by studying a product or design. William Dembski, for example, has claimed that "Intelligence leaves behind a characteristic signature." He also suggests that many branches of science make implicit use of such a signature: "in special sciences ranging from forensics to archaeology to SETI (the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence), appeal to a designing intelligence is indispensable." While this characteristic signature is often alluded to, no way to measure or define it has yet been proposed.

The concept of artificial intelligence may prove to be a problem for ID. If an intelligence could emerge out of a dynamically evolving computer program, the assertion that intelligence must be designed would be disproven.

Cognitive science continues to investigate the nature of intelligence to that end, but the ID community for the most part seems to be content to rely on the assumption that intelligence is readily apparent as a fundamental and basic property of complex systems.

I've left out the details of AI, as I don't feel this article needs it. Please feel free to edit this proposal, instead of posting beneath it. -- Ec5618 17:49, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Intelligence, as an observable quality, is poorly defined

The phrase Intelligent Design makes use of an assumption of the quality of an observable intelligence, a concept that has no scientific consensus definition. William Dembski, for example, has claimed that "Intelligence leaves behind a characteristic signature." Such characteristics of intelligent agency are assumed to be observable without ID offering what the criteria for the measurement of intelligence should be. Dembski, instead, makes the claim that "in special sciences ranging from forensics to archaeology to SETI (the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence), appeal to a designing intelligence is indispensable." How this appeal is made and what this implies as to the definition of intelligence are topics left largely unaddressed.

As a means of criticism, certain skeptics have pointed to a challenge of ID derived from the study of artificial intelligence. The criticism is a counter to ID claims about what makes a design intelligent, namely that "no pre-programmed device can be truly intelligent, that intelligence is irreducible to natural processes." In particular, while there is an implicit assumption that supposed "intelligence" or creativity of a computer program was determined by the capabilities given to it by the computer programmer, artificial intelligence need not be bound to an inflexible system of rules. Rather, if a computer program can access randomness as a function, this effectively allows for a flexible, creative, and adaptive intelligence. Forrays into such areas as quantum computing seem to indicate that real probabilistic functions may be available in the future. Intelligence derived from randomness is essentially indistinguishable from the "innate" intelligence associated with biological organisms and poses a challenge to the ID conception of where intelligence itself is derived (namely from a designer). Cognitive science continues to investigate the nature of intelligence to that end, but the ID community for the most part seems to be content to rely on the assumption that intelligence is readily apparent as a fundamental and basic property of complex systems.

Just to Defend America's Honor

Despite the common claim that this 'debate' is only going on in the United States, I feel obligated to point out that such an argument is flawed, as the debate is mostly ignored inside the United States as well, and is far more popular on the internet than anywhere else, as well as the occasional suburb or farmbelt, but for the most part (other than select internet trolls and politicians) we ignore them too, so carry on--NY101 16:35, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

You need to get out more. This issue is popular enough that the president of the United States stated his position on it. -DaveScot

• Well he's not very bright, and I don't live in the midwest, so as I was saying, non issue, keep debating it though, the internet really cares what you think--NY101 02:32, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Bright enough to court the "values" voter. No wait, that's Karl Rove's doing... my bad. :"D - RoyBoy 04:03, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

ID in fiction

Why is this section on the bottom of the article? Doesn't make sense to me. - RoyBoy 23:09, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Did you follow the links? Mostly science fiction that contains ID concepts (wittingly or unwittingly). Seemed appropriate to me, at least for entertainment value.--Gandalf2000 16:18, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

While humourous, it doesn't seem to add anything to the article, does it? It does seem to be in line with the origins of the concept section, as it too tries to tell the reader that the concept of ID is well established. But it should probably go. -- Ec5618 17:47, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I find the section entirely appropriate; it should be moved to at least before See also. - RoyBoy 21:40, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Moved the section to just before See also, and expanded on the way ID was portrayed in each instance. -- Ec5618 21:58, 24 October 2005 (UTC)