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South-Tyrolian toponymy

Sorry, I am not an expert in this, so I cannot give details. One example that I am personally aware of is the village of Rio Bianco, a translation of the German Weissenbach.

There is a list of traditional Italian names for places in the Province of Bolzano compiled by Professor Fabrizio Bartaletti, Univ. of Genoa. Examples are Appiano, Brennero, Brunico, Dobbiaco, Fortezza. Some of the traditional names were different from the ones used today:

Corné became Cornedo, Nova Tedesca became Nova Ponente, Sterzen became Vipiteno, Terlá became Terlano, Oltemo became Ultimo, Nova became Nova Levante. See: http://www.unionfs.com/12d2449.html

I did not find the complete list on the Internet. The list includes only 100 names. I assume that the names not on the list are not traditional but made up by Tolomei.

I would suggest that you find and consult the following scholarly articles on this subject:

F. BARTALETTI, Geografia, toponomastica e identità culturale: il caso del Sudtirolo, in “Miscellanea di storia delle esplorazioni XXVII”, Genova. 20021, pp. 271-314.

F. BARTALETTI, Un atto di coraggio per l’Italia: abolire i toponimi italiani introdotti dal fascismo in Alto Adige- Südtirol, in “Studi geografici in onore di Domenico Rocco” (a cura di F. Citarella), Napoli, Istituto di Geografia dell’Università di Genova, Vol. II, 1994, pp. 619-630.

If you can find these publications, please let me know what they contain.

Note that there have been similar renaming procedures in other places such as the renaming of Italian place names in France or Slavic or Turkish place names in Greece (see Ptolemaida, Slavic toponyms for Greek places).  Andreas  19:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, you don't need to tell me there have been renaming of places around the World. :-) I've looked into some references. In some ways I'm pointing out that this grand renaming of places in BZ is not really the case. Some people like to claim that all the Italic names used in BZ are inventions, but in fact it is a very small amount. Even Nova Ponente was known as Nova much earlier than it was every known as Welschnofen (a German renaming, by the way :). I think in some cases instead you had names of towns converted from the dolomite Latin to national Italian: Bolzan -> Bolzano. Icsunonove 19:45, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The Latin Bauzanum gave rise to Bulsan, Bolzano, Bozen. Many place names in BZ are of Ladin origin, and were italianized in the same way as place names in other areas of non-Tuscan language. I have no examples at hand, but perhaps looking at the toponymi in Val di Non would be interesting. I would think that place names ending in -o such as Taio would be different in Nones, a language closely related to Ladin. (see also my talk page)  Andreas  20:45, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Alive, and quite well

Hey, yes, I've been away, and will reply to you tomorrow when it's, well, less late for me. I took time to vote on the Isarco poll, because I discovered I missed the one for the Autonomous Province of TN and thought it was a shame.

Ah, I see Andreas' question on the name "Tirolo" before 1815: it was indeed colloquially used, although not loved by everyone. But for instance, you could find letters from John Eugene Leitensdorfer (an officer under gen. Eaton in the early XIX century), a man from Pergine who chose that pseudonym when he moved to Louisiana, addressing his letters home to "Tirolo, Italia" - both a recognition of the regional name no doubt he used in his youth and of the local prevailing nation. Conversely, Alto Adige was well present before 1919 - after all, Tolomei's "Archivio" circulated since 1906, if I remember well. It is really complex, as all our beloved area is. Feel free to point this out to AndreasJS, more imput would surely be fine. Cheers, Tridentinus 03:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Introduction to the Prontuario

You are good in Italian, would you like to summarize the Introduction to the Prontuario? This would be useful in order to counter misconceptions about the Italian names in BZ. Here is the link: http://xoomer.alice.it/tribunale/prontuario.pdf

Skip Mori's preface and go to page 1 after page xiv.  Andreas  16:29, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Languages-dialects

In fact, there is no definition. There is a jokeful definition that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy. Normally one would say things like "Bavarian is a dialect of German". For linguists, this is more or less nonsense. For example, Limburgish is spoken in the Netherlands, but it is more or less identical to the local language of Aachen. There are also political misuses of the terms, such as Macedonian is a dialect of Bulgarian.

I found the Nones toponyms interesting. It brings me back to the question it an -o ending in an Italian toponym is authentic (stemming from a Latin -um). For Nones place names (and for all other place names in regions of Italy with -o-less local language), the question is since when toponyms with an -o have been used. In TN, Tuscan has been used as the language of administration for a long time (since when? Did Tuscan succeed Latin immediately?) The -o names are in this sense traditional. This is relevant because in BZ, Tuscan has not been used as the language of administration before 1919. Therefore, place names ending in -o are (in my opinion) a-posteriori adaptations made by Tolomei (apart from well-known places such as Bolzano or Merano).  Andreas  22:19, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Isarco

I replied to your inquiry on my talk page. Pasquale 16:31, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Staying cool

Well thanks, but I suppose staying cool is really a lot easier when you're not as much personally invested in a topic and only provide an outside opinion to help get things going. I assume to some of you on both sides of the fence it may seem like you're wallpapering fog, but I'm also sure it's a question of giving it your best shot and be extra civil and mature, and not e.g. comment on the other side, much like Lar sensibly suggested. —AldeBaer 22:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Re: hey

I think he thinks that the topic ban proposed by Future Perfect at Sunrise on the ANI board was something "official", and that you implicitly accepted it.--Supparluca 10:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Re: look at this

I actually find this more worrying.--Supparluca 19:41, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know, that stuff gets to be kind of laughable after awhile. Icsunonove (talk) 19:49, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Re: your counter

No, you can use {{Template:User contrib}}, or {{User:Supparluca/User contributions}}, or you can create a subpage of your user page, write the template there and use that (I just cutted and pasted the code at Template:User contrib for my subpage; note that it is useless... you can just use the common template).--Supparluca 21:59, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

hello

Hello, I am a Chinese, my English is not very good, so please locations!--Hwaia A. Wong Talk —Preceding comment was added at 04:18, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

South er, bolzano er adige er

It looks like the CfD will be a keep. I have no problem with the article content - as you say it explains the issues well. If the article title seemed stable, I would want the category to match as usual. Personally I don't like the hybrid nature of the current one - at least we have redirects for these problems. But if there seemed to be a real concensus, of course I would follow. Johnbod 18:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you

For remaining professional. We gain more ground working together and respecting each other's opinions, even when they differ.

The only thing I'll say counter is that it really isn't a "German" thing at all. Remember first and foremost that a lot of the English language is Germanic-based... the root language of English is Germanic. So a lot of the translations into English may sound Germanic - especially when you take into the account the region we are discussing. Yes, there is Italian - and you have definitely pointed out the Ladin base and origins (consider that a lot of Ladin sounds Germanic - what is the root?). But the majority of the region is still German, and that means that the strongest influence for translation would be German-based. Thus, the official province website states "Autonomous Province of Bozen - South Tyrol" based on their translation. It doesn't make it incorrect if it isn't matching the Italian government (remember they are autonomous in nature and have some semblance of flexibility), nor is it weighing soley in the hands of a web developer (I know the CEO of the company I work for regularly reviews the various pages of our website). It just is - and I'm sure that they would have been corrected by now if their actions were withdrawn from a governmental representation.

Anyway - thanks again. Rarelibra 04:50, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

By your statement, I can see you define the roots of English a bit too literally. Just because it is classified as a Germanic language, doesn't mean its roots are in the German language! :) Do you know that 60-70% of the vocabulary (the true heart of any language) of English is derived from the Latin/Romance languages? So, your statement about translation into English may sound Germanic argument doesn't make a bit of sense. I know both Italian and German, and I can tell you that there is much more of a relationship between the former (vocab. and grammar wise) than the latter. Anyway, and again, you give too much credit to that BZ website. If it was under such strong review there wouldn't have been so many inconsistencies which have never been updated. They don't even reply to multiple e-mails from various parties asking for clarification. I think you e-mailed them, did they ever reply? Doubt it. :-) Lastly, you assume too much by the nature of "Autonomous" in Italy. It is not in the same league as places we typically hear about such as Tibet, Kurdistan, etc. Even with the autonomy of certain regions in Italy, there is still less self-governance in those relationships than what we have in our own US Federal-State structure. In many ways this is part of the slow push to a Federal structure that has long been desired in Italy. If you think by crossing the border from Verona to Trento you are going to feel like entering some "autonomous republic".. you are in for a surprise. :-) Icsunonove (talk) 23:20, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:WLA

This user wants you to join the Los Angeles area task force.

(♠Taifarious1♠) 02:04, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Please see meta:Talk:Stewards/elections_2007#Votes_to_remove

You need to crosslink your account. You can do this by doing an edit here (to your user page, perhaps) saying you have an account on Meta named Icsunonove, and then on Meta, giving the diff of the edit here by the account on en saying it is you on en. Or you can if you want set up a fullblown WikiMatrix like my userpage on Meta references. Thanks again for your support, hope this is not too much trouble. ++Lar: t/c 03:51, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Germany Invitation

Hello, Icsunonove! I'd like to call your attention to the WikiProject Germany and the German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board. I hope their links, sub-projects and discussions are interesting and even helpful to you. If not, I hope that new ones will be. Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Germany | finger on pulse Misplaced Pages:German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board | finger on pulse

--Zeitgespenst (talk) 16:53, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Reply

Good to hear from you. Nothing new underneath the sky. I've tried to re-start the discussion on the title of Province of Bolzano-Bozen, but that's all. --Checco (talk) 20:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Test--12.25.168.146 (talk) 16:39, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Scouting

	You are invited to participate in WikiProject Scouting, a project dedicated to developing and improving articles about Scouting.
	You may sign up at the project members page.

— Rlevse • Talk • 23:14, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

History of South Tyrol

Hi Icsunonove, I'd like to hear your opinion on some heavy editing which is being done on the History of South Tyrol (yes, it's been moved again) page by an anonymous user. I have made my objections clear on the talk page, it would be nice to have some more users take a look at the situation. Thanks, Pcassitti (talk) 18:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

My summer is going quite well, thank you :) So you' ve been to Trentino recently? As you probably know, currently the European Football (Soccer) Championships are being held in Austria, which means there is a lot of things going on.

Regarding the changes made to the History of Alto Adige/South Tyrol article, I have tried to explain some of my objections on the talk page. Basically, it seems to me there have been arbitrary changes without adding new relevant information, instead adding bits and pieces of the stuff we agreed to keep separate in other articles, and the Background section is so filled with information about italian irredentism that now it makes up more than half of the article, talk about content forking. Referenced material has been removed and some of the wording subtly changed. For example, it is clear that substituting "south tyroleans" with "german speakers" is quite problematic when talking about the reaction of the populace to certain policies, and writing that today's area of South Tyrol in roman times was part of "Regio X" is just plainly wrong (apart from the fact that it was agreed to keep the history of the area before WWI in a separate article). But since these are the opinions of a single person I thought I'd ask some other users to have a look, as I have no wish to start an edit war over it. Pcassitti (talk) 19:03, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

• I just wanted to drop you a note to let you know that I've read Misplaced Pages:Subpages again. When I saw History of Alto Adige/South Tyrol, I immediately assumed it was an impermissible subpage. I now realize that the slash was an intentional part of the name. I disagree with naming pages in this fashion, and will pipe up on the talk page, but I will also go along with the current consensus. Cbdorsett (talk) 03:56, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Hmmmm - now THAT's interesting. I just checked the page itself, and found that it is now named History of Alto Adige-South Tyrol. I think that is a much better solution. Cbdorsett (talk) 03:58, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi Icsunonove, finally I find some time to dedicate to Misplaced Pages again. The situation on the articles "History of South Tyrol" and "Tyrol" has been getting worse, the same anonymous user keeps pushing his POV and refusing to enter any debate on the talk page. He apparently decided thatthe Article "Tyrol" is really about the "county of Tyrol" and changed it accordingly. If I changed it back it would just need to an edit war. The only solution seems to be to semi-protect both articles and then try to incorporate some of the changes made by the anonymous user (since not everything he added is wrong) into the article. What's your opinion? Pcassitti (talk) 07:06, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

You are simply a liar. I've largely discussed and sourced all my statements. And I always answered to your complains. Thus I know that,in lack of arguments, you prefer the option to block the article;-). Don't forget that the you are the POV-pusher here. Your theory about the Italian Army winning the battle of VV against undefended soldier and after the end of the war, is one of the most incredible forgery I've ever read on wiki. Regards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.13.167.236 (talk) 21:00, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your rational contribution to the discussion at ANI. But as the old axiom says, "No good deed goes unpunished." Rarelibra is now persistently accusing you of anony-socking him, in multiple threads. Thought you deserved fair warning. :-(
User_talk:Future_Perfect_at_Sunrise
User_talk:Rarelibra#Map_shenanigans
Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard#Topic_ban_needed_for_two_edit_warriors
arimareiji (talk) 20:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Re: province of italy page

Hi, the article about the region has the right image now: Rarelibra didn't revert the last edit by Checco. Regarding the Provinces of Italy article, you can find the last part of a summary of all the edits here. Nothing has changed since then. (Also, I replied to your comments about the name of the file of the image here. You could have missed that. It seemed to me that also Rarelibra doesn't consider the name of the image a problem). I was thinking of waiting until Rarelibra goes to Iraq and then restore the article, but I slightly doubt it will happen...--Supparluca 20:21, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, I think he came around to using the multi-name pages. I'll update it now, and see if people still want to debate it. I'm tired of these people like PhJ and Gryffindor saying we are Italian-POV pushers, where consistently we've been asking for multiple names to be used. I love how extremists like to say, "no it is you!" :) Icsunonove (talk) 20:29, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Surprisingly Rarelibra did't revert my last edit. Wow (maybe he missed it because of other subsequent edits by bots).--Supparluca 09:05, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Ortisei

All my hints can be found in WP:NCGN. Briefly: don't use raw google, use one of the more reliable engines; use control phrases to avoid false positives; don't trust Google's English-language bit, and so on. What the locals use is a fact for the article; it's not what matters to us: what does English use?

I remain bizarrely impartial; my interest here is our process, in the hope it will be useful to the reader, and avoid move wars.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:38, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I will admit to one prejudice. I am pleased by the argument that if Ortisei and St. Ulrich are close to tied, we should use Urtijei (excuse the spelling); it annoys both you and Gryffindor, and after the trouble all of you cause, that feels right :-> Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:48, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

You are nuts. :P Only Gryffindor wanted a uni-lingual approach. Replied on your talk page. Icsunonove (talk) 04:05, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Fine, I apologize; it's late here, and I may be confounding you with some other Italian editors anyway. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:16, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I put so much into my bio page, and yet it goes unread. *sob* I'm an American editor.. :P Replied again on your t-page. Icsunonove (talk) 04:21, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

There, there. But has pain in the arse become naturalized in Los Angeles? News to me. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:09, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi! I would like to tlak to you if possible! :-)--12.25.168.146 (talk) 16:38, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Umm, ok, but then you probably should make an account. Otherwise, it is a bit difficult to talk with you. :-) Icsunonove (talk) 07:10, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Re: BZ

Well, the situation is a bit more balanced now, largely thanks to you probably. But anyway, this is just internet; the real problem is what many people say and do in the real world in regard to this province!--Supparluca 08:45, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Loves Art

First off, I apologize for the spam. You are receiving this message because you have indicated that you are in Southern California or interested in Southern California topics (either via category or WikiProject).

I would like to invite you to the Los Angeles edition of Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Loves Art, a photography scavenger hunt to be held at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art (LACMA) on Saturday, February 28, 2009, from 1:00 to 7:00 PM. All photos are intended for use in Misplaced Pages articles or on Wikimedia Commons. There will be a prize available for the person who gets the most photos on the list.

If you don't like art, why not come just to meet your fellow Wikipedians. Apparently, we haven't had a meetup in this area since June 2006!

If you are interested in attending, please add your name to Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Loves Art#Los Angeles County Museum of Art. Please make a note if you are traveling to the area (train or plane) and need transportation, which can probably be arranged via carpool, but we need time to coordinate. Lodging is as of right now out of scope, but we could discuss that if enough people are interested.

Thank you and I hope to see you there! howcheng {chat} 23:59, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Re: Commons

I'm aware of the mess that there is on Commons, but I don't care very much, unless it affects wikipedia.--Supparluca 15:25, 10 January 2009 (UTC)