Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 07:38, 3 February 2009

Archives
Archive 1	Archive 2	Archive 3

Meran's climate area

I think Meran should be included among the cities in the Adige's Valley climate area. User:Skafa/Sign 22:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

NPOV title?

Recently I had the opportunity to do some research at the Library of Congress in Washington, DC, which is one of the most comprehensive libraries in the world. Remembering of our long discussions on the best title for this article, I took a look at several geographical atlases to see what expression was most used in the Anglo-Saxon world. I was surprised to understand that no atlas used "Bozen", as they all used either "Province of Bolzano", "Bolzano" or "Alto Adige", when dealing with our dear province. In particular, everyone can look at The Times Atlas of the World and find out that in Plate 76 (Tenth Comprehensive Edition, 1999), the province is named "Bolzano".

It is not my desire to open now a new infinte discussion on the issue, but only to observe that the most neutral title for this article is "Province of Bolzano". I have a lot of respect for German-speaking South Tyroleans and I even support their final desire of independence (if they desire it), but, as we are trying to make an enclycopedia and not politics, I cannot keep from saying again what is true and what is not. As I said I do not want to start again an infinite discussion, but I hope that one day we will find the consensus to change this title. It seemed neutral even to me at one point, but, as we are writing an encyclopedia in English and not in German or in Italian, we should use the expression most used in that language and in the Anglo-Saxon world, that is definitely not "Bozen". --Checco (talk) 10:41, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I totally agree with you, as you know. I already "knew" that in English the Italian names for places in this province are used, without even checking, because that's just common sense.--Supparluca 16:14, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

If you don't want to start a new infinite discussion, then what is this message about? You already wrote about your visit to the library of congress in december, when we where debating if the term "South Tyrol" should be included in the title of this article. Now suddenly you remember that the term "Bozen" wasn't in the atlases either? Excuse me, but you are not very credible. What I see here is an attempt at removing the german names from the title of this article one step at a time, and I find it hard to believe that this is because of a NPOV issue. I think most users will agree that the current title is a good compromise, neutral, and conforming both to the official naming of the province and the common use in the english language. Pcassitti (talk) 09:36, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I repeated exactly what I told you before, but, as I like to be precise, I wanted to let you know at least a source that I consulted. You can think everything you want, but the problem is that "Bozen" is not NPOV and against the praxis of using the most commonly used term. Moreover "Bozen" is not used at all in English, as I had understood doing that research. I'm very happy that you support the current compromiseas the most neutral solution, because when Icsunonove and I proposed it, we were accused of being Italo-centric (a big accusation for me!). I like to express my opinion and my opinion now is that this title, although being a good compromise if compared with the previous title of the article, does not follw the "common use" rule. Last but not the least, I just remind you that this is English Misplaced Pages not German Misplaced Pages. --Checco (talk) 10:24, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The fact is that we don't deal this way with other similar situations, not even in this same country (where there are places with Slovenian/French/Sardinian/... groups). This could be considered a NPOV issue.--Supparluca 11:52, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

As you said, for many users the taking away of the "South Tyrol" in the title was already perceived to be italo-centric and POV. Nonetheless the current compromise has been reached. Suggesting at this time, just over a month after the last debate, that we change name yet again will inevitably fuel the controversy and cause another debate, and I can tell from the way the last one went that at the end of it the current title would still be the one most people could agree upon. So I ask you, what would the purpose be? The name is NPOV, it is official, and it is widely used in english, no matter what you found in the atlases of the library of congress. I find it intriguing that while visiting a library where you could have read any interesting book of your choice you actually chose to spend time looking for the name "Bozen" in old atlases. Did you at least look at every one of them? Have you made a statistic, properly referencing the data? If not, then I would not take your findings as an objective argument, and besides, they would be against the no original research rule. So if you want do discuss a change in the title of the article I suggest you reread the pages of past debates and see if any of your arguments have been addressed before, and since they have, maybe you should check if you have any new inputs to give. If not, the discussion following your attempt at name-change would be really pointless and just a repeating of old arguments. Pcassitti (talk) 16:08, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I thought that the current title was a good compromise and I continue to think the same thing, but I can't keep from observing that it is not the most NPOV title, because truly "Bozen" is not used in English. The users who live in the United States, for instance, confirm this. My message now is no infinite discussion, but hope for a new consensus (one day) on a more NPOV solution. I can't understand what is your argument, but for attacking me. --Checco (talk) 16:17, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not attacking you. But it is not good practice to keep pushing for a certain solution again and again in the hope that it will eventually get through. A consensus has been reached, and it should be accepted. As for your statement that "Bozen" is not used in english, if you cared to read the past discussions you would find plenty of arguments which show the opposite, arguments that I am not going to repeat since it would be absolutely pointless to reopnen a debate which has already been settled. Pcassitti (talk) 16:38, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Pcassitti, good to hear from you. Actually what Checco said is 100% true though. In English (at least in the USA), we use Trentino-Alto Adige and Bolzano. In general the names used are simply what is used in the national language of Italy (or whatever other country). Just as in Trentino (or most any other region in Italy), the local-language names aren't used in maps, encyclopedias, etc. We have made a certain special agreement in the case of BZ, for better or for worse. Note that Checco and I were among the editors who pushed for the current shared-naming convention, which has significantly reduced the bickering on here (FINALLY). The original names were literally English translations of the German-POV, full stop. :-) Relax, we got everything covered very well now in the T-AA/ST page and BZ page, or is it not the case? Icsunonove (talk) 22:59, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

This page is wrong. for english language the administration has decided to use the german name as its stated on the official home page of administration www.provincia.bz.it - Luca - 02 July 2008

The same page where they also state Province of Bolzano/Bozen and Province of Bolzano in English? Also, this is English wikipedia, so we don't need to follow a vague decision to use the "german name". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.251.19.195 (talk) 17:27, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Please translate the Geography > Climate section!_Climate_section!-2008-02-12T07:29:00.000Z">

While this section is very well appreciated, there are many terms not terribly intelligible to a native English speaker. It seems to be a quick translation job. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.67.230.180 (talk) 07:29, 12 February 2008 (UTC)_Climate_section!"> _Climate_section!">

South Tyrolean parties

There is a lot of work about South Tyrolean parties in en.Wiki... who wants to give a hand?

It would be very useful to translate into en.Wiki articles:

• de:Südtiroler Volkspartei (see South Tyrolean People's Party)
• de:Union für Südtirol (see Union for South Tyrol)
• de:Die Freiheitlichen (see The Libertarians)
• de:Süd-Tiroler Freiheit (see South Tyrolean Freedom)
• de:Südtiroler Heimatbund (no article yet in en.Wiki)
• de:Grüne (Südtirol) (see Greens (Province of Bolzano-Bozen))

Morever, there are other parties without an article both in de.Wiki and en.Wiki (Partei der Unabhängigen, Freiheitliche Partei Südtirols, Soziale Fortschrittspartei Südtirols, Wahlverband des Heimatbundes and Tiroler Heimatpartei), while Social Democratic Party of South Tyrol and Democratic Party of South Tyrol need expansion. Can anyone write at least a line or two on these parties: having an article with the name of the party translated would be incredibly useful.

Help, help! --Checco (talk) 20:28, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Climate section

There is no reference, and, as far as I know, no data for some of the places in the text. True data can be found at: http://www.provinz.bz.it/hydro/wetterdaten/index_i.htm http://erg7118.casaccia.enea.it/Pagine/Index.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by DaveH 87 (talk • contribs) 08:42, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Mountains

as required by naming convention I googled the mountains:

• Ortler:
  • Ortler 37,700
  • Ortles 13,800
• Muntpitschen: (a Swiss Romansh name)
  • Muntpitschen 77
  • Monpiccio 0
• Weißkugel: (border mountain with Austria)
  • Weißkugel 1730
  • Palla Bianca 740
• Wilder Freiger: (border mountain with Austria)
  • Wilder Freiger 739
  • Cima Libera 330
• Hirzer: (entirely inside the province of Bolzano)
  • Hirzer 1440 (to avoid wrong positives -"hotel" & various first names have been deducted from the search - without deduction result would be: 3130)
  • Punta Cervina 10 (to avoid wrong positives -"hotel" & various first names have been deducted from the search - without deduction result would be: 51)
• Hochfeiler: (border mountain with Austria)
  • Hochfeiler 1760
  • Gran Pilastro 217
• Dreiherrnspitze: (border mountain with Austria)
  • Dreiherrnspitze 164 (to avoid wrong positives -"via Picco dei Tre Signori" (a street in Rome) has been deducted from the search)
  • Picco dei Tre Signori 38 (to avoid wrong positives -"via Picco dei Tre Signori" (a street in Rome) has been deducted from the search)
• Dreischusterspitze: (entirely inside the province of Bolzano)
  • Dreischusterspitze 298
  • Punta dei Tre Scarperi 7
• Marmolada: lies in the provinces of Belluno and Trento
• Cima d'Asta: lies entirely in the province of Trento (the mountains lie south of the Val die Fiemme and Val di Fassa which are both part of Trento)
• The highest mountain in the Western half of the Dolomiti, which lies inside or is on the border of the province is the:
  • Saslonch/Langkofel/Sasso Lungo 3,181m - it lies on the border between the province of Trento and Bolzano and is the only mountain with a Ladin name too:
    • Sassolungo 11,400
    • Langkofel 3620
    • Saslonch 642

Based on the above data I have edited the table on the page; --noclador (talk) 19:19, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, I'm most familiar with the Ortler in English, so you got that one right. ^_- Icsunonove (talk) 08:16, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Adesc Aut

The claim that the term Adesc Aut is used in the Ladin language is not correct:

• Usc di Ladins (the newspaper): 0 Adesc Aut, 231 Südtirol, 19 Alto Adige, 46 Sudtirol
• Istitut Ladin "Micurà de Rü" (the language and culture institute): 0 Adesc Aut, 84 Südtirol, 223 Alto Adige, 0 Sudtirol
• Union Generela di Ladins dla Dolomites (the three- provincial political association): 0 Adesc Aut, 203 Südtirol, 78 Alto Adige, 0 Sudtirol
• Jent Ladin Dolomites (the party): 0 Adesc Aut, 478 Südtirol, 225 Alto Adige, 9 Sudtirol
• Amisc dla Ladinia Unida (the Reunification Association): 3 Adesc Aut, 313 Südtirol, 1150 Alto Adige, 103 Sudtirol

lets sum up: Adesc Aut 3, Südtirol 1309, Alto Adige 1695, Sudtirol 153 - in total Adesc Aut gets 565 hits; and if one removes the regions name Trentin-Adesc Aut from th google search we get 69 hits - in short: fringe theory. Adesc Aut is almost only used to name the region, but even that very seldom (338 hits) - the province of Bozen doesn't even use the term once on its homepage , neither does the region of Trentino Alto Adige , or the province of Trento nor the province of Belluno ... also Adesc Aut is unknown by google books . I therefore changed the line in the introduction. --noclador (talk) 03:21, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't know, adesc aut returns almost 20,000 hits for me. There must be some kind of regional variation. --Piccolo Modificatore Laborioso (talk) 12:09, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

And differently from what is reported in the current versions, they do use the umlauts in südtirol.--Piccolo Modificatore Laborioso (talk) 12:17, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

If you google "Adesc Aut" you get indeed over 20,000 hits; but always control what the results are: Adesc Aut returns 20,000 hits and the first hit is "ADESA, North America's premier vehicle auction operator." Google is assuming that Adesc Aut is a misspelled ADESA Auto. now if you realize this google error search anew with "Adesc Aut" -Adesa and voila 717 hits refining that search further to exclude wiki related results (our articles and the many copies thereof) add -wiki and now you get 565 hits - and this is the true figure. So, whenever doing a google search look at the first 20-30 results to avoid wrong positives. As a result you will see that no official institution and no Ladin association uses Adesc Aut.

also the two sources given are useless: both do not refer to the province but the region and the padaniacity.org article is copied from the www.noeles.net: so one source is a copy of the other! that's a big no-no! also noeles.net uses Adesc Aut 71, Alto Adige 251 and Sudtirol and its variations (Südtirol, Sudtirolo) 1360 times... Adesc Aut is but a fringe theory - looking at the minimal use and the sources I dare say Adesc Aut was added through original research by an editor. --noclador (talk) 14:50, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Fringe theory and original research. LOL. Noclador, Adesc Aut was added because it was shown in the context of an Ladin website concerning official affairs. Icsunonove (talk) 06:33, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

• Stop trying to destroy culture Noclador, it is getting very old. There was a link to an official institution using Adesc Aut, that now happens to be broken. That does not mean that we then delete the information. It is a valid term, and there is no benefit to erasing a word... UNLESS you have an agenda. I noticed Hochetsch was also deleted. I guess that is also not fitting with the agena. Icsunonove (talk) 07:16, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

It was not a official institution as you claim - official institutions do NOT use Adesc Aut! Also Adesc Aut is a translation of Alto Adige and is not used in Ladin to describe the province of Bolzano - there is no Ladin name for the province and Ladins use therefore Alto Adige or Südtirol! Adesc Aut is not Ladin culture - if wikipedia administrators ask for it I can ask the head of Istitut Ladin "Micurà de Rü" and the president of the Union Generela di Ladins dla Dolomites to write a email to ORTS that states that Adesc Aut is "un nome storpiato italiano" (a deformed Italian name) and that it is a falsification to claim that Adesc Aut is used by the Ladins. Hochetsch was deleted by your friend Suppaluca . So go report me - you who have no clue about Ladin! The Ladin scholars are waiting. --noclador (talk) 07:30, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

LOL, I know and speak a dialect of Ladin, a language of my ancestors before your's came here, I'm certain. :) You definitely do not say "Upper" before "Adige", it is the other way around in Ladin grammar. I have now shown four links that mention Adesc Aut, and indeed there are official translations in Ladin that use Trentin-Adesc Aut or Trentino-Adesc Aut. In Ladin the word is not Adige. It is a word that sounds like Adesc, Ades, or Adis. It is definitely not Adige. Also, there are MANY variations of Ladin my dear Noclador... Icsunonove (talk) 07:38, 3 February 2009 (UTC)