Talk:Greg Louganis: Difference between revisions

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	:What? Unethical? HIV is not transmittable by being in the same pool with someone who has the virus. It's debatable if even drinking their blood would cause infection, the HIV virus simply is not that tough, you need to do a more direct transfer. The only risk to the attending doctor who stitched him up would be a needle prick from a needle that ''drew'' blood from Louganis then pricked someone else. It's possible but not terribly likely in this instance. And divers in Olympic competition requiring stitches is also a rarity and that severity of an accident is the rare exception unlike team and contact sports. ] 06:39, 2 February 2009 (UTC)		:What? Unethical? HIV is not transmittable by being in the same pool with someone who has the virus. It's debatable if even drinking their blood would cause infection, the HIV virus simply is not that tough, you need to do a more direct transfer. The only risk to the attending doctor who stitched him up would be a needle prick from a needle that ''drew'' blood from Louganis then pricked someone else. It's possible but not terribly likely in this instance. And divers in Olympic competition requiring stitches is also a rarity and that severity of an accident is the rare exception unlike team and contact sports. ] 06:39, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

	:: We know ''now'' that HIV isn't transmissible that way. But in 1988 things were less certain. There was a lot of unnecessary fear. As I mentioned, it's the perception of danger, not necessarily any actual danger. No one would have objected if Louganis had antibodies (as he had for HIV) against any number of not-easily-transmissible diseases, viral or bacterial. Antibodies against a specific infectious organism in the absence of symptoms indicates a functioning immune system that has defeated the infection. But the whole premise of HIV as AIDs supposes that antibodies to HIV in the absence of symptoms are a sign of ongoing latent infection that must be treated for life with chemotherapeutic drugs. If you adhere to that belief, then Louganis was unethical in competing, as indeed he (or any other athlete in a contact sport) would be today. Your comment that "The only risk to the attending doctor who stitched him up would be a needle prick from a needle that ''drew'' blood from Louganis then pricked someone else" is curious. That "someone else" was obviously the doctor, as I pointed out. As for the rarity of the event, it is indeed rare but that is hardly a valid point. The doctor was potentially exposed ''after'' the rare event, not before. The swimmers were '' potentially '' exposed at any moment, according to many misinformed people at the time. Louganis could have warned them all, rarity or not. It wasn't medically necessary as it turns out, but it surely was ethically. ] (]) 17:15, 2 February 2009 (UTC)		:: We know ''now'' that HIV isn't transmissible that way. But in 1988 things were less certain. There was a lot of unnecessary fear. As I mentioned, it's the perception of danger, not necessarily any actual danger. No one would have objected if Louganis had antibodies (as he had for HIV) against any number of not-easily-transmissible diseases, viral or bacterial. Antibodies against a specific infectious organism in the absence of symptoms indicates a functioning immune system that has defeated the infection. But the whole premise of HIV as AIDs supposes that antibodies to HIV in the absence of symptoms are a sign of ongoing latent infection that must be treated for life with chemotherapeutic drugs. If you adhere to that belief, then Louganis was unethical in competing, as indeed he (or any other athlete in a contact sport) would be today. Your comment that "The only risk to the attending doctor who stitched him up would be a needle prick from a needle that ''drew'' blood from Louganis then pricked someone else" is curious. That "someone else" was obviously the doctor, as I pointed out. As for the rarity of the event, it is indeed rare but that is hardly a valid point. The doctor was potentially exposed ''after'' the rare event, not before. The swimmers were potentially exposed at any moment, according to many misinformed people at the time. Louganis could have warned them all, rarity or not. It wasn't medically necessary as it turns out, but it surely was ethically. ] (]) 17:15, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
	:::Sorry, this moral clause rests entirely on a reasonable person thinking that Olympic diving would result in a bloody accident. If this were a more violent sport or even a team to team combat sport where injuries of this nature were more common then maybe, but this isn't that. The other swimmers were never exposed unless they were shooting up dirty needles or being the passive sexual partners in anal intercourse with him. Shall we put ''that'' in the article? There is no reasonable way anyone foresaw him breaking his head open or any other medical accident involving his blood coming out. Given the prejudice against people with AIDS as well as overt homophobia in sports it would have been a career ender for Louganis to openly discuss his HIV status with anyone who was not not bound to confidentiality. ] 03:20, 3 February 2009 (UTC)		:::Sorry, this moral clause rests entirely on a reasonable person thinking that Olympic diving would result in a bloody accident. If this were a more violent sport or even a team to team combat sport where injuries of this nature were more common then maybe, but this isn't that. The other swimmers were never exposed unless they were shooting up dirty needles or being the passive sexual partners in anal intercourse with him. Shall we put ''that'' in the article? There is no reasonable way anyone foresaw him breaking his head open or any other medical accident involving his blood coming out. Given the prejudice against people with AIDS as well as overt homophobia in sports it would have been a career ender for Louganis to openly discuss his HIV status with anyone who was not not bound to confidentiality. ] 03:20, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

			::"Other swimmers were never exposed." Again, we know that now. But according to the common perception of HIV at the time, Louganis' especially put the ''doctor's'' life at risk. Many of us are now perfectly sure that Louganis didn't actually do that, as we don't accept the theory that HIV is the sole or even partial cause of AIDS. As for your rhetorically asking me whether dirty needles and anal sex should be a part of the article as well, I can only quote a line from ''The Mystery of Marie Roget'': "Observe, here, the laughable confusion of thought!" As far as I'm concerned the accident needs no further elaboration because there was, it turns out, no danger at all. HIV doesn't cause AIDS so why dwell on an accident that couldn't possibly have caused AIDS in an unsuspecting person? What ''is'' at issue is simply how HIV was perceived by many at the time, and whether the ethics of Louganis' choice merits discussion in the article. Probably it doesn't, if only because it is (obviously) too contentious to remain unedited, one way or the other, for long.

			::Finally, I question the presumed rarity of diving-board accidents. To watch Olympic divers in their routines is to be immediately aware of the danger of a head-hit on the board. There are plenty of videos available online of diving-board accidents, and people have been using diving boards for a long time. But this point is irrelevant to the discussion, since we both agree that the HIV in Greg Louganis' blood was not going to be causing AIDS in anyone -- even, apparently, Greg Louganis. ] (]) 18:40, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Revision as of 18:40, 5 February 2009

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Previous discussions without headers

I am removing the bit about his head injury and AID's, since it seems dubious at best that researchers did not know aids could not be transmitted through chlorinated water. One, chlorinated water kills just about everything (hence the point of it BEING chlorinated), and two, the whole paragraph sounds like a hark back to the 80's when drinking from the same cup from a person with AID's meant you could get the disease. Considering the constant filtering and change of water in a swimming pool (particuarly a large scale, professional olympic pool), the fact that they cleaned off the diving board of his blood, and the fact that it was chlorinated, the paragraph about his being HIV positive and hitting his head seems a stab at him. SiberioS 03:57, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

No, that really was a concern at the time. Therefore, it should remain (and it has been replaced). Kurt Weber 04:56, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Did he really win 2 world championships in 1982, I thought 1 per year. Go Bruce!!

There was no real reason to delete the bit about the head injury.... Nar Matteru (talk) 02:01, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Technically speaking

In 1994, Louganis publicly announced he was gay and took part in the Gay Games. The following year, in 1995, Louganis also announced he had AIDS, something he had actually known since early 1988. He was dropped by all of his corporate sponsors except Speedo, which has stayed with him to this day. Did he have AIDS in 1995 or was he just HIV positive? --Eddylyons 20:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

By all appearances (see the pix on his website). Louganis was and is merely HIV-positive to this day, although he claimed in 1995 to meet the CDC's clinical definition of AIDS . He probably did, for what it's worth. It's a curious case, like that of Magic Johnson. Both men have had HIV for twenty-odd years, yet seem to show no sign of AIDs. I've commented on this in Johnson's Talk section, where I point out the difference between him and those who are known to have taken antiretrovirals for years: the latter group are dying of accelerated old age. I suspect that neither Louganis nor Johnson are taking antiretrovirals but the matter probably doesn't belong in their articles. Eye.earth (talk) 00:31, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Gay stuff

I'm thinking that this next line while funny is not factual.

In 1995, Louganis's autobiography, entitled Diving into Uranus: The Greg Louganis Story

and this one...

Louganis went on to win his first world title in the same event, yet he still liked to be behind Italians.

is silly and while possibly true, I think not needed.

Introduction

I have changed the introduction of this article back from reading "is a gay American diver" to "is an American diver". The change had been made recently by an anonymous contributor and did not accord with current Misplaced Pages editorial practice. - Mark 09:52, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

accident

This article should say more about the accident. 70.92.103.13 06:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

The way the media handled the accident was truly disgusting and cruel. It never occurred to the media to ask how badly Greg was hurt or whether his injury was dangerous or life-threatening8) and even the year that Louganis admitted his HIV-positive status (1995) as well as his concurrent admission that he knew six months before. Instead, all the questions were about whether the blood in water was dangerous for other athletes.66.65.129.159 (talk) 03:06, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Whether you think HIV causes AIDS or not (and I don’t think it does), it was surely unethical for Louganis to compete, because he knew he was HIV-positive months before the 1988 accident. The issue is the perception of danger, not necessarily any actual danger. (The doctor who stitched up Louganis' bloody head without wearing protective gloves probably got a good jolt upon learning in 1995 about a possible exposure seven years earlier. ) I think that’s the source of the controversy, and hence the argument as to whether the accident deserves greater mention in the article. But I'm curious about those who think that the news media's emphasis on the perceived danger posed to others by Louganis' blood was unjustified. Presumably they also don't believe that HIV causes AIDS and thus object to any undue emphasis on what turned out to be a non-existent danger. Eye.earth (talk) 03:36, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

What? Unethical? HIV is not transmittable by being in the same pool with someone who has the virus. It's debatable if even drinking their blood would cause infection, the HIV virus simply is not that tough, you need to do a more direct transfer. The only risk to the attending doctor who stitched him up would be a needle prick from a needle that drew blood from Louganis then pricked someone else. It's possible but not terribly likely in this instance. And divers in Olympic competition requiring stitches is also a rarity and that severity of an accident is the rare exception unlike team and contact sports. -- Banjeboi 06:39, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

We know now that HIV isn't transmissible that way. But in 1988 things were less certain. There was a lot of unnecessary fear. As I mentioned, it's the perception of danger, not necessarily any actual danger. No one would have objected if Louganis had antibodies (as he had for HIV) against any number of not-easily-transmissible diseases, viral or bacterial. Antibodies against a specific infectious organism in the absence of symptoms indicates a functioning immune system that has defeated the infection. But the whole premise of HIV as AIDs supposes that antibodies to HIV in the absence of symptoms are a sign of ongoing latent infection that must be treated for life with chemotherapeutic drugs. If you adhere to that belief, then Louganis was unethical in competing, as indeed he (or any other athlete in a contact sport) would be today. Your comment that "The only risk to the attending doctor who stitched him up would be a needle prick from a needle that drew blood from Louganis then pricked someone else" is curious. That "someone else" was obviously the doctor, as I pointed out. As for the rarity of the event, it is indeed rare but that is hardly a valid point. The doctor was potentially exposed after the rare event, not before. The swimmers were potentially exposed at any moment, according to many misinformed people at the time. Louganis could have warned them all, rarity or not. It wasn't medically necessary as it turns out, but it surely was ethically. Eye.earth (talk) 17:15, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, this moral clause rests entirely on a reasonable person thinking that Olympic diving would result in a bloody accident. If this were a more violent sport or even a team to team combat sport where injuries of this nature were more common then maybe, but this isn't that. The other swimmers were never exposed unless they were shooting up dirty needles or being the passive sexual partners in anal intercourse with him. Shall we put that in the article? There is no reasonable way anyone foresaw him breaking his head open or any other medical accident involving his blood coming out. Given the prejudice against people with AIDS as well as overt homophobia in sports it would have been a career ender for Louganis to openly discuss his HIV status with anyone who was not not bound to confidentiality. -- Banjeboi 03:20, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

"Other swimmers were never exposed." Again, we know that now. But according to the common perception of HIV at the time, Louganis' especially put the doctor's life at risk. Many of us are now perfectly sure that Louganis didn't actually do that, as we don't accept the theory that HIV is the sole or even partial cause of AIDS. As for your rhetorically asking me whether dirty needles and anal sex should be a part of the article as well, I can only quote a line from The Mystery of Marie Roget: "Observe, here, the laughable confusion of thought!" As far as I'm concerned the accident needs no further elaboration because there was, it turns out, no danger at all. HIV doesn't cause AIDS so why dwell on an accident that couldn't possibly have caused AIDS in an unsuspecting person? What is at issue is simply how HIV was perceived by many at the time, and whether the ethics of Louganis' choice merits discussion in the article. Probably it doesn't, if only because it is (obviously) too contentious to remain unedited, one way or the other, for long.

Finally, I question the presumed rarity of diving-board accidents. To watch Olympic divers in their routines is to be immediately aware of the danger of a head-hit on the board. There are plenty of videos available online of diving-board accidents, and people have been using diving boards for a long time. But this point is irrelevant to the discussion, since we both agree that the HIV in Greg Louganis' blood was not going to be causing AIDS in anyone -- even, apparently, Greg Louganis. Eye.earth (talk) 18:40, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

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