Misplaced Pages

http://www.golan-syria.org/ There's a website from the Syrian perspective. No Syrian calls the Golan Heights "The Syrian Heights". They are known in Arabic as "al Jolan", more specifically "al Jolan al mu7talla" (the occupied Golan Heights). See the Arabic Misplaced Pages article for more proof .Yuber 20:22, 18 October 2005 (UTC)ا

Unless you bother translating that .ar article, or acknowledging my querry for a precise citation from that source (not simply repeating the url, I have already seen it in your edit summary), I will continue to object. It sounds plausible that its usage as cited in the .en Golan Heights articles and above is largely tangenial, in that sense (historically, politically), but I expect slightly more effort on your part in making your claims explicable here, in this English-language WP. Also, see my comment about reverts and discussion here. 21:20, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I think you have demonstrated that the name "Syrian Heights" is used. I don't think you've demonstrated that this is specifically the Syrian/Arab usage, or that it is used in contrast to "Golan Heights." It seems to simply be an alternative to "Golan Heights" - one of your sources uses both terms in the same paragraph. john k 22:02, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I live in Syria (though I'm not there at the minute), and I have never heard them called the Syrian heights, but simply the Golan. The majority of the sources for "Syrian heights" cited above seem to be Israeli, and none of them appears to be Syrian. Also, it's not clear how many of them are actually using it as a name for the heights as opposed to a description, and one is clearly talking about a putative future renaming. What on earth is going on here? Palmiro | Talk 22:25, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I am answered. Thanks for the explanation and for your insights, Palmiro. Much appreciated. 23:36, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Not really after a vote

Hi. I'm happy to leave this page name as is. I feel the title could be better, but it could be worse as well. There has been too much unpleasantness as well, not just at the beginning but still ongoing. Thanks, Andjam 01:58, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Good, becuse Misplaced Pages ia not a democracy. I sincerely suggest you place greater efforts at coming across more diplomatically with your objections, reducing rather than increasing unpleasentness via declarative accusations, ones which you should really follow through or not comment on at all, in my opinion. I am refering of course to your "Territories under Israeli control moved to Israeli-occupied Territories: Renaming as promised and agreed upon"-titled section and accusations of what was allegedly "made-up," which to quote you (italics and all), is so not cool. Thank you in advance for reading my comment's content without implied malice or harrassment. 06:50, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Subtleties of Misplaced Pages:Ownership of articles

Well, now that most of everyone is sick of me, and having failed to improve the article and discussion substantively, my work is done here. Have a good one. 20:38, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Agent 69.193.242.60, about fifty percent of your edits to the article were not half-bad, and I enjoyed your most recent reply to Andjam, although you could have been nicer to my "agent provocateur" in the unredlink-archive affair. :-) Good hunting! --saxet 00:56, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I am not comforted by your enjoyment, nor in your observation that "about fifty percent of edits to the article were not half-bad." 05:49, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

You could always assume good faith; of course you don't have to, but you could choose to do so. --saxet 07:51, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Anyway, silly discussion this, if you feel so inclined you can on User talk:Dervish Tsaddik read about my POV regarding Misplaced Pages:Ownership of articles. --saxet 08:50, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I found it riddled with about half-good truths, distortions, general evasiveness, personal attacks, and frankly, hypocricy. 10:44, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

There's no need to be sorry. And although I do appreciate your honesty I wish you could have been a little bit more specific than that. And maybe (since you brought it up) share some of your opinions regarding 'the ownership issue'. --saxet 13:26, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

To further the interests of honesty, I should mention that I wasn't actually sorry — that was a rhetorical devise. And I'm not at all interested in commenting on various Misplaced Pages essays and policies, and most certainly am against entering into a polemic with you on the "nature of primates" and 'the everyone's a hypocrite' sell/cop-out argument, the nature of "somewhat" and what being seemingly inexplicably drawn to selective expressions of imperialist domination —and imperialist-lackey dependency and submission— in my opinion amounts to, and so on. You were the one who chose to engage me, also about the contents of your page, otherwise I would not be offering my opinion. 16:44, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Whatever you say.. compañero/compañera. --saxet 18:00, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Wow, what a peculiar response. I'm not Ayn Rand nor am I Jimbo, my politics is in direct opposition to both. 18:27, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Peculiar indeed. Well, Ayn Rand is (thankfully) dead and Jimbo is a character in The Simpsons, so I kind of figured you were neither. If you would make an effort to understand the concept of language-game, it is quite possible that you youself will become a brilliant prose writer. Then it's also possible that a hypocritical imbecile such as myself will have a chance to understand what you are trying to communicate. --saxet 19:46, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Or so you say, in-between vaguely-explained insults. 20:21, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, so I say, without implied malice or harrassment. AGF really. --saxet 21:04, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Whomever you are, I don't believe you would call me Ayn Rand without implied malice. 21:24, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Sure you know who I am, as I know who you are. The reference to Ayn Rand was made since I thought your abstract read like it was written by an Objectivist. A friendly advice: if you want to know something; then ask, If you want to say something; then say it. Don't hide under the cloak of stilted cowardice. --saxet 01:56, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

And as I've said; you could always assume good faith; of course you don't have to, but you could choose to do so. --saxet 02:26, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, no, I did not know about your other account, nor do I see why I should care. Elsewhere, I'm finding your diatribes rather innane, absurd and unfocused. You also seem to be in the habit of straying into personal comments too often amid multiple links per-sentence to WP:AGF. 05:21, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Of course, you could always simply repeat yourself word-for-word, but in my opinion, that smacks of intellectual lazyness. 05:21, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Another thing that might strike you as intellectual laziness would be if I borrowed the phrase "You also seem to be in the habit of straying into personal comments too often" from you Sir Commandant. --saxet 11:34, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Not a particularly well thought-out response. Your various name-calling are childish; your attempt to come across as sophisticated is strikingly sophomoric and pseudointellectual. 12:45, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Are you arguing yourself now? You claim that I'm "name-calling", and you also made an 'objective assessment' that I strive to come across as "sophisticated", which couldn't be further from the truth. Just as I'm not an auxiliary, I'm not, in the slightest, refined. Anyway, I've said all that I wanted to have said on this page, and since this pissing contest, unlike a game of chess, can't be won, I will leave the debate (and the page) in your capable hands. --saxet 15:29, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Here's faintly hoping. Characteristically muddled till the end, I feel that your various transpositions are dishonest. But enough about my weaknesses. 01:31, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Could the two of you (saxet and nameless editor) please move your discussion to your personal talk pages? Marsden 16:28, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I didn't mean to discourage you, nameless editor, by undoing or changing so many of your edits. Most of your links and content changes, I liked and tried to keep. I did think, however, that many of your changes made the article less encyclopedic in style. Marsden 15:21, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Not that I don't strive to reach the heights your brilliant prose, but your reversion seemed too wholesale cut & paste. I might not object if there was a bit more of an explanation and effort. Please attempt to be more communicative and precise with future contributors. 16:44, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I tried to salvage what I could of your changes, but at a couple points you'd combined too many sentences for me readily to remove the conversational writing style, so I just cut and pasted the prior wording. A couple things that you could do, nameless editor, in order to make your efforts more efficient are:

(1) Start a Misplaced Pages account with a user name. Most people don't naturally keep track of series of numbers, so there is real potential for your excellent contributions to be confused with the crap than other anonymous editors leave here.

(2) Take smaller bites. In this article, you came from out of nowhere and made a bunch of primarily stylistic changes throughout the article. You seem to be, as most people are, and as I certainly am, enamoured with your own writing style. But not everyone will share your capacity to appreciate how wonderfully you write, and indeed, with the changes you made, I was struck that the article had come to read like an encyclopedia article plus some comments added by someone as if writing notes in the margin. Had you made a couple minor changes, you might have been more proficient at maintaining the encyclopedic writing style, and other people (like yours truly) would have been more able to make minor changes to each of your edits without, as you say, seeming to make wholesale reverts.

(3) Tone down the attitude. No doubt you really are God's gift to the rest of us, but it betrays a lack of experience in working with other people that you so cavalierly offer your input and act hurt when it is not heart-warmingly received. Have pity on us lesser mortals, if nothing else.

Hope that helps!

Marsden 16:28, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Not really! Again, you don't need to insert a double space in-between sentences. Which brings me to the point of how it's always easier to offer stylistic and otherwise criticisms than it is to recieve and truly reflect on them. Also, please try not to project such an acerbic tone with your comments, it can easily be read disparagingly. Back on topic: I am not at all attached to my written word; as in my admittedly clumsy writing style and poor orientation with a written narrative. But by copying portions of text, it just did not seem as if you compared my changes closely enough, which was hurtful. My advise to you in being more communicative from the outset, and I'll add now, less metaphorical and more porsaic, stands. 01:31, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

If Saxet or any other registered users feel that I was trying to increase unpleasantness, I'd be willing to read how they feel I've been unpleasant in my talk page. With regards to the archiving (mentioned elsewhere), I was only trying to restore the archive to what John K had created. Andjam 13:28, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Andjam, I did not feel you were trying to increase unpleasantness. --saxet 13:38, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Ok. My mistake. Andjam 13:59, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

No problem, I've also made those kind of mistakes. --saxet 14:49, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

explain like im a two year old

explain to me like i'm a two year old: if the iraeli army marches in and controls the territories, how can one possibly argue that they are not occupied?

"The term "Occupied Territories," especially when capitalized, is commonly used to refer to the Israeli-occupied territories"

"The term "Occupied Territories," especially when capitalized, is commonly used to refer to the Israeli-occupied territories" Unbehagen, I'm astonished you would consider this claim to be properly referenced, and not "original research", considering the rather vociferous objections you made to rather better cited information about the modern day use of the term "Zionist terrorism" on the "Zionist terrorism" page. Can you explain how the "Zionist terrorism" phrase was original research, and the claim listed above is not? Alternatively, please restore the paragraph you keep removing at Zionist terrorism. Thanks. Jayjg 02:54, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

There is a difference between trying to prove EXCLUSIVE use and COMMON use. Do you really not think so? If so then it is I who am astonished! Unbehagen 12:03, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

While proving exclusivity in anything is difficult, the citations provided on the other Talk: page show that as well as anything can be shown. Jayjg 17:05, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Jay - is this really controversial? Are you saying that the Israeli-occupied territories are not referred to as the "Occupied Territories" or "occupied territories," without modifier? see here for a google news search on "Occupied Territories" - there are 474 results, a great number of which are relevant. Are you really saying that it is original research to say that the term "Occupied Territories" is used to refer to the subject of this article? Or am I missing something. john k 03:24, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

To begin with, I think a more typical present-day use of "Occupied Territories" refers to the West Bank and Gaza Strip, not the Golan Heights, and certainly not the Sinai desert. More importantly, I'm trying to find the standard of original research that is going to be used for these kinds of articles. For example, if you look at this Talk: page, and the edit history of the article, you will see that an extremely high standard for original research is being set by Unbehagen. Specifically, he's insisting that the results Google and Library of Congress searches consist of original research, and that one must actually quote a reliable source which makes this claim - yet here he (and you) seem to consider them not to be original research. We should strive for some consistency in our application of policy here. Jayjg 17:05, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

The Sinai is not occupied anymore, so that's hardly fair. Beyond this, I don't think anything in the statement says that "Occupied Territories" is necessarily used to refer to the Israeli-occupied territories as a whole, just that it is used to refer to the Israeli-occupied territories - perhaps we can clarify on this, but the statement itself hardly seems controversial. Beyond this, it sounds as though you are making a WP:POINT violation here - as to the Zionist terrorism article, I have not expressed an opinion there, although I will say that Unbehagen has a point in saying that "commonly used" should require a much lower standard of proof than "exclusively used" or "almost exclusively used." john k 18:00, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Also, you said you added the "cite" thing based on talk, but I don't remember any discussion of this at all ever. john k 03:34, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

The discussion was about inclusion of material about water resources without sufficient balance. Also I think removing a request for citation without actually providing a citation, or in lieu thereof resolving the issue on the Talk: page, is bad form. Jayjg 17:05, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I've provided a google news link which gives many examples of major media using the term "Occupied Territories" in this context. At any rate, it seems pretty clear that this is not an issue of citation - it is an issue of phrasing. This statement could probably be phrased better. But there is nothing controversial about the idea being conveyed. As to bad form, violating WP:POINT is also bad form, so that's rather the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it? john k 18:00, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Are you objecting to "commonly" or to "used". I agree "commonly" is a matter of interpretation and may need a citation. "used" is a simple matter of fact - a citation which shows usage ie a reference to "Occupied Territories" which clearly refers to the land is question is a valid one. I actually think you're breaking WP Policy on Making a Point and carrying on the "debate" from Zionist Terrorism - which is very different - here. If so please show some good faith and reason. Unbehagen 11:57, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Please see my comments above - striving for clarification and consistency in policy application is not WP:POINT, and you appear to be applying the policy in vastly different ways on these two pages. As for "commonly used", that is actually less objectionable than "used", which, in my mind, implies exclusivity. Jayjg 17:05, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Jay - of course it is WP:POINT. The issues are not basically similar. "Proving" the rather obvious fact that the term "Occupied Territories" is commonly used to refer to either the Palestinian Territories or the Palestinian Territories+Golan should only require a pretty low standard of proof - some citations by major media ought to be sufficient. To prove that something is exclusively used is essentially trying to prove a negative - you have to show that the term is never used in any other way. A single counterexample blows up the whole point. Now, you and Unbehagen may disagree on whether you've demonstrated enough proof as to whether or not "zionist terrorism" is exclusively used by nuts, but this has absolutely nothing to do with the issue on this page. john k 18:00, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

It was hardly WP:POINT - I was trying to establish a standard for what we consider "original research". What is actually WP:POINT is Unbehagen's continued removal of the information on the Zionist terrorism page, even though the allegedly contentious word "exclusively" has been removed. He now uses a different rationale for removing the information, claiming that sources need to be cited, ignoring the many sources provided on the Talk: page. Maybe you could take a look at that. Jayjg 03:31, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Jay - I have changed the opening to deal with your objections. I hope the new version meets with your approval. john k 18:01, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

John, the matter had already been covered in a separate section of the article. Maybe that section should be moved to just after the intro, but your change was pretty clunky. Marsden 18:10, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I think it's much more clunky for the first sentence of the article to link to a section later on in the article, but maybe that's just me. I'm obviously open to other suggestions, though. john k 18:22, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Let me take a stab at it. Marsden 18:35, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Looks much better. Out of conflict, a better article arises! Almost enough to restore my faith in wikipedia. john k 21:54, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm impressed, nice work to all. It's good to see things taking a better turn. --MPerel 00:03, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Not too bad, if I do say so myself. Until the next "improvement" .... Marsden 23:23, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Good solution on the section, Marsden; and good rewrite of the intro, JK. As for my hit-and-run re-naming of Territories under Israeli control to the current title, let us never speak of it again! El_C 03:04, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm getting a bit sick of the whole insist on tertiary sources thing - which I note is a favourite tactic with Israel/Palestine articles. Basically you insist ont he form of words "X is used to refer to" - then insit on examples not of X refering to but of X being used to refer to. A classic is the Occupied Territories article. It's eeasy to find references to the phrase "Occupied Territories" and it's clear from what this refers to. It's very hard to fund references to "occupied territories is used to refer to" (which is a meta search searching for a secondard source showing uage not a secondary source of the fact). Fortunately this is a pattern I've now recognised and will be trying to ensure doesn't proliferate. "No Original Research" relies on secondard sources not secondary sources showing evidence of other secondary sources. Unbehagen 22:16, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, it's insisting on secondary sources for claims, not tertiary sources. And I'm getting rather sick of your double standards on that page - first deleting the information based on the notion that it was "original research", then insisting here that the only "original research" was the word "exclusively", then, when that word was removed, deleting it on the grounds that there were no citations, ignoring all the citations on the Talk: page. Jayjg 03:31, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

The neutrality of this section is disputed

I don't have much time, but I want to help facilitate a new discussion concerning the two current npov-section tags. I'll leave it blank for now and hope a productive exchange ensues wikimagically therefrom (hopefuly I'll be able to revisit it next week). Yet another proverbial hit-and-run from yours truly! El_C 03:04, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

The West Bank and the Gaza Strip

Alright, to begin with, who finds this section to be POV, and in what respect? john k 16:42, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I do. It has information about the water resources inserted there, which, as you've said yourself, does not even belong in this article. Furthermore, the information has been inserted for the purpose of creating a POV that Israel is holding on to the territories because of the water resources, ignoring at least a half dozen other important reasons. This has already been discussed at length above. Jayjg 03:34, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

The information clearly belongs. Jay, if you and John Kenny need some remedial education about the water situation in the Occupied Territories, that can be addressed. But the information belongs. Marsden 04:12, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Please note that an assertion is not an argument. Jayjg 12:14, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying, Jay. I don't think I've ever said that the water resources issue definitely does not belong in the article. I do think that it shouldn't be the only piece of specific information presented in the article. It seems to me that the key to NPOVing this is not to remove the water issue, which is clearly important (while, admittedly, not being uniquely important), but to add other material. john k 23:07, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

The Golan Heights

Same question here. Who finds this section to be POV, and in what way? john k 16:42, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

See comment above. Jayjg 03:34, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Ski resort

I've added a citation and some additional info on the Golan Heights. If anyone still has objections to it appearing in the article, I'd appreciate it if they list them here rather than edit-war, and possibly list what topics they feel are halal and which are haram for the article. Thanks, Andjam 12:02, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Now the resort has been moved from the Golan Heights to the West Bank. Andjam 14:53, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

And now reference to it has been removed from the article completely. Andjam, the ski resort information doesn't belong here; it makes the article ridiculous. Insert it again without a reference indicating it as an consideration in Israel's continued occupation of the Golan Heights, and I'll begin a vandalism complaint against you. Marsden 15:15, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Here is a comment left on my talk page on this matter, Andjam: "Ski resort???? That's very funny and very sad at the same time." Marsden 15:44, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

As I understand it, this ski resort does have some strategic importance. As noted, the Alpinistim trains there, and the Alpinistim is important—but guess why? Its main purpose is to defend Mount Hermon, and why is it important that Mount Hermon be defended? Because the headwaters of the Jordan rise there, and the Jordan supplies Israel with . . . you guessed it: fresh water. I'll see if I can find some sources on this. —Charles P. (Mirv) 20:18, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism complaint

Jayjg -- who has serially removed the references to water resources in the Occupied Territories because they are allegedly not relevant, in spite of the ubiquity of opinions to the contrary in published writing on the matter, and that including it allegedly creates a POV slant -- has restored the sentence, "The Golan Heights contains the only ski resort under Israeli control" in two separate reverts, the first time noting that the ski resort information was "as material as the water crap" that he'd been deleting before, and the second time after I warned him that I'd file a vandalism complaint against him if he restored it again. Enough is enough, and I'm filing the complaint. I'm going to ask that he be banned from editing this article for a month, and I understand that I'll need someone to second my complaint. I'll post a link to it when I've completed it.

Marsden 14:21, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I restored the information before your "warning"; have a look at the edit times. As for the information itself, it's clear that you've expanded the scope of the article from what I had orginally argued it should be held to. Since expanded scope seems to be the consensus here, I'm respecting that consensus by restoring the information User:andjam added regarding other unique reasons why Israel has interest in these territories. I think the article needs other relevant information too, regarding Israel's unique wineries in the Golan, and the Israeli greenhouses in the Gaza Strip which produce prodigious amounts of produce for the Israeli and world markets. If you object that that content, rather than edit-warring it out (as you edit-warred other content in), why don't you express on the Talk: page why it is you feel the information doesn't belong here? You've been explicitly asked to do so, above, but appear to have simply reverted User:andjam, rather than responding to him. Jayjg 22:32, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I responded to Andjam at his talk page, but thanks for your concern. Marsden 01:49, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Marsden's response included repeating that my contribution was "cr**". He also justified of the use of that word, claiming that Jay had used it to describe my contribution. Within minutes of him talking to me, he sent messages to half a dozen other people on this dispute, asking them for support. Andjam 13:44, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I've seen his comments there, they're very insulting. As for "crap", far from describing your contribution that way, I instead acquiesed to Marsden's insistence that the scope of this article needed to be broadened. I've explained that to him, so I'm not sure why he would present a patently false claim and attribute it to me. It is troubling that he would insist that the scope of the page be expanded, but then exclude obviously relevant material under that expanded scope, and even threaten other editors for including that material. Jayjg 18:05, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

On "patently false": here is what Jay wrote the edit comment in restoring the comments on the ski resort: "it's as material as the water crap." This faithfully represents his obsessive past objections to the information on water resources, but also equates the materiality of the ski slope information to this. If Jay would like to make the argument that, in spite of his edit comment, he believes that the referenced and broadly supported information on water resources is "crap" but the silly and broadly condemned information on the ski resort is somehow more valid, that should be very amusing. Marsden 19:03, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

My personal feeling is still that the article focus should be narrow. However, personal feelings notwithstanding, I have acqueised to your insistence that the scope be broadened, even though I personally disagree with that rather unilaterally enforced decision. It astonishes me that you would now attempt to criticize me for agreeing to your parameters for the article; apparently I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't. Jayjg 20:20, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Let's not be so phony, Jay: it is not my insistence, but rather the consensus of people involved in this article that information on water resources belongs in this article. I also strongly expect that the consensus of people involved in this article will be that the ski resort information does not belong, and I believe that you -- recognizing this as well -- realize that it would only further blacken your reputation if you were to persist in inserting the ski resort information into the article, including quite possibly tangible penalties for vandalism. The extent of your "agreeableness" seems to be delineated quite clearly by what you recognize you won't be able to get away with. Really, you're damnable if you do and damnable if you don't -- you have shown absolutely no acceptance of the consensus that your preferences for this article violate NPOV, instead moaning about me getting away with "revert warring" and enforcing "my" parameters and insistences on the article, and probably, if I looked further afield, grousing about how an "inappropriate POV title" has been used here "... for the time being." The only difference between when you do and when you don't, Jay, as far as I have seen, is whether or not a stick is held over your head. So get used to having a stick held over your head, Jay, because clearly that is all that keeps you from promoting what not just me but the consensus of people involved in this article see as your POV. I honestly wonder with you if there is not some sort of anti-gentilism going on with how contemptuous you are of a lot of people. In any case, I have figured out how I can most effectively deal with you, and sadly for you it involves holding a stick over your head. Marsden 20:56, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Apparently as part of the complaint process, I need someone to leave a second message to Jay at his talk page requesting that he not restore the ski resort sentences. Marsden 14:28, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Please keep in mind that "complaint processes" tend to look at all aspects of an issue. Your implication that only you may decide what is relevant to the contents of this article will be only one of the issues examined. Other issues examined will obviously include your almost ceaseless series of personal attacks against a number of editors, particularly me, and your admitted wikistalking for the purposes of reverting. My experience with "complaint processes" is that they have a way of rebounding on the complainant, but feel free to do what you wish. Just a bit of friendly advice. Jayjg 22:32, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Jay, I think you should be careful here that you are not WP:POINTing. Are you only supporting inclusion of the ski resort material because it's a way to prove your point about the water resources material? That being said, I don't see why the ski resort information is necessarily irrelevant. It seems to me that the best way to look at the sections dealing with each of the occupied territories is to view them as epitomes of the main articles Golan Heights, Palestinian Territories, East Jerusalem, and Sinai Peninsula (or whatever, for the last one). The ski resort is probably insignificant enough that it should only be mentioned at the main Golan Heights article (where it is, at present, not mentioned), but I'd be interested to see other arguments on that front.

In terms of the water issue, which seems to be the main one here, the Golan Heights article makes it clear that the Israeli government itself has stated that water resources, along with strategic position, are one of the key reasons for Israel maintaining its control over the Heights. Why can't we say this, then? john k 23:16, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

John, as I made clear to Mirv, Marsden has insisted that the scope of the article be expanded to include reasons why the various territories have value to Israel, against my vociferous objections. Well, it seems the consensus (or his edit warring) support his view, but now that he's opened Pandora's box, he cannot insist that only the things he thinks are important to Israel can be included in the article. Tourism is a huge industry in Israel, and has already been mentioned on this Talk: page (by Ramallite) as a reason for Israel's holding the territories - certainly the only ski resort in Israel contributes to that. As well, military uses are obviously critical to Israel, given its position, so it's difficult to understand why listing the Golan's unique capabilities as a training ground for soldiers should be deleted. Of course, I'm interested in finding consensus on this page as to what is relevant and what is not, but I don't think it should be decided by Marsden edit-warring out what he disapproves of, in the same way he previously edit-warred the water material in. Jayjg 23:36, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Numerous sources on the importance of water resources in the Occupied Territories have been offered. I'm sure you and Andjam won't add information about wineries or greenhouses or ski resorts to this article unless you have sources that can show that they are material concerns in Israel's continued presence in the Occupied Territories, because to do so would be original research. As I mentioned to Andjam, the articles on the individual territories would be more appropriate repositories for information on them that is not particularly relevant to the occupation. Thanks, by the way, for your "friendly advice." Hopefully you'll cease trying to make this article a laughingstock, so we won't have to find out if Misplaced Pages's complaint process is as dysfunctional as you claim it is. Perhaps, on the other hand, having as much experience with the complaint processes of Misplaced Pages as you do is not something to be proud of. Marsden 01:49, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

You deleted a citation I made, Marsden. Making false accusations of original research is a form of personal attack. Andjam 13:44, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Jay, discussing tourism in the article as another potential reason seems fine to me, if citations can be found. My main objection to the ski resort issue is that it seems pretty small-time, and no citation has been provided. Beyond this, it seems rather unlikely to me that too many tourists come to Israel for the skiing...but, as I said, I have no inherent objection. It clearly ought to be mentioned in Golan Heights if it is mentioned here, though. john k 18:02, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Other points:

• It has been said that I didn't mention anything about the ski resort in the Golan Heights page. That is true, but I did add information to the Mount Hermon page before this dispute. If I were to add the info to the Golan Heights page, who would say it wouldn't get edit-warred out?
• Winter sport is one of my interests in wikipedia. Heck, I've even edited the page! This is not even my first middle eastern-related winter sport article.
• I've not objected to water being mentioned in this article. If people wish to argue Jay is a hypocrite, fine, but that is not a valid reason to remove my contribution to the article. The consensus seems to be that resources of the areas under dispute are fair game for the article, as the article already mentions a number of those.
• As the only talk Marsden has been willing to do on this page so far has been under the category of "Vandalism complaint against Jayjg", I'm going to add the ski resort info back in.

Thanks, Andjam 13:44, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Marsden, please, no personal-attack headers. SlimVirgin 18:57, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

It's an attack against his action in this article, not against him. Marsden 19:03, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Please cease using section headers for personal attacks - this is viewed strongly negatively by the Misplaced Pages community. Article Talk: pages are for the purpose of discussing article content, not other editors. Jayjg 20:20, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

A complaint that someone is supposedly vandalizing an article is not a personal attack. If it were, nobody would ever be able to claim that someone is vandalizing an article, as personal attacks are banned everywhere on wikipedia, not just article talk pages. That said, I think it would be better to avoid using section headers in this manner. john k 20:53, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Further: I think that Marsden's actions in terms of the section header could easily be described as a failure to assume good faith and perhaps as a violation of wikiquette. But we should be careful and precise - it is not a personal attack. john k 20:56, 31 October 2005 (UTC)