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Revision as of 08:56, 1 November 2005 editAdam Carr (talk | contribs)26,681 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit Revision as of 09:05, 1 November 2005 edit undoJPD (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users9,850 edits →Category:Australian Aboriginal mythologyNext edit →
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****Cat:Aboriginal gods (22) ****Cat:Aboriginal gods (22)
There are some deities who seem to be specifically goddesses according to the article such as ]. However, given the relatively small numbers why have a subsection below ''Category:Australian Aboriginal deities''? I propose a merger of ''Cat:Aboriginal godesses'' and ''Cat:Aboriginal gods'' into ''Category:Australian Aboriginal deities'' which would have 38 articles, not too large and removes anachronism as per comments by Dalziel --] ] 19:43, 31 October 2005 (UTC) There are some deities who seem to be specifically goddesses according to the article such as ]. However, given the relatively small numbers why have a subsection below ''Category:Australian Aboriginal deities''? I propose a merger of ''Cat:Aboriginal godesses'' and ''Cat:Aboriginal gods'' into ''Category:Australian Aboriginal deities'' which would have 38 articles, not too large and removes anachronism as per comments by Dalziel --] ] 19:43, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

:I assume the original purpose of the gods and goddesses categories was to have them as subcategories of {{cl|Gods by culture}} and {{cl|Goddesses by culure}}, which seems worthwhile to fit in with the general scheme. It is also true that some of the articles use the words "god" and "goddess", but on the whole the standard of these articles isn't that high, so someone with more knowledge might well be able to recommend renaming the categories to Australian Aboriginal male deities/spirits or something better. ] ] 09:05, 1 November 2005 (UTC)


== Public Domain images from NLA == == Public Domain images from NLA ==

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This is a list of current deletion debates involving Australian subjects. One assumes Australians are more likely than most to know whether they are Misplaced Pages-worthy. Remove as resolved. WikiProject Deletion sorting also maintains a list of transcluded Australia-related deletion debates.


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Category:Australian Aboriginal mythology

Is it really appropriate to refer to 'Australian Aboriginal deities', 'gods' and 'goddesses'? I mean, we're talking about a religion that is essntially animistic, as I understand it, right? So 'gods' and 'goddesses' aren't really accurate terms in that context, are they? I'm going out on a limb here, I could be wrong. And I'm not sure what alternate terminology to use in the place of these. Anyone? -Dalziel 86 13:59, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

The current heirarchy following reformatting by JPD is

There are some deities who seem to be specifically goddesses according to the article such as Kunapipi. However, given the relatively small numbers why have a subsection below Category:Australian Aboriginal deities? I propose a merger of Cat:Aboriginal godesses and Cat:Aboriginal gods into Category:Australian Aboriginal deities which would have 38 articles, not too large and removes anachronism as per comments by Dalziel --A Y Arktos (Talk) 19:43, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I assume the original purpose of the gods and goddesses categories was to have them as subcategories of Category:Gods by culture and Category:Goddesses by culure, which seems worthwhile to fit in with the general scheme. It is also true that some of the articles use the words "god" and "goddess", but on the whole the standard of these articles isn't that high, so someone with more knowledge might well be able to recommend renaming the categories to Australian Aboriginal male deities/spirits or something better. JPD (talk) 09:05, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Public Domain images from NLA

Previous discussion copied to Template talk:PD-Australia

Please clarify - what is the rule for newspaper artwork such as cartoons and illustrations? Adam 14:06, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

For artistic works other than photographs and engravings (so including drawings, paintings, sculpture) it was "life plus 50" and is now "life plus 70". If the creator is unknown, it was "first published plus 50" and is now "first published plus 70". So if the creator died before 1 January 1955 or is unknown and the work was first published before 1 January 1955, then the work is out of copyright. This "in general" applies even if the creator was an employee of the newspaper which holds the actual copyright. See the tables of the duration of copyright datasheet for more info. Geoff/Gsl 22:36, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Am I the only one that thinks the information in this thread is handy enough to be in its own article linked to this noticeboard... great stuff... Agnte 23:02, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I have copied this discussion to Template talk:PD-Australia. This page is now due to be archived as it was 65kb long and this particular thread was starting to get very lengthy to follow.--User:AYArktos | Talk 23:13, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
I heard back from a senior legal officer at Copyright Australia and they said that the National Library has probably not created a new work through the process of scanning the images and placing them online. So the images are still under public domain. If you where to approach the library for a high quality reproducation they may place you under contractual restrictions as to it's use. I will also post this on the above mentioned talk page. --Martyman-(talk) 01:44, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
As my eyes glaze over at the first sight of anything even remotely legalistic, I'd like to recap the situation abd ask for clarification. I understand that I can use this 1950 image of Sir Thomas Playford from the NLA site as it doesn't give details of who the photographer was and ergo his/her date of death. I can also use this NLA image of Thomas Playford II dating back to early 20th century. However, can I use this image of Frank Walsh from the Parliament of South Australia website? The image was presumably taken later than 1955 but the site says "Apart from fair dealing permitted by the Copyright Act, the Parliament of South Australia grants visitors to this site a licence to download and display its copyright material for private and non-commercial purposes only", which to my non-legal mind indicates that we can display the Frank Walsh image on Misplaced Pages.
Any clarification would be gratefully accepted. --Roisterer 08:45, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
According to Jimbo non-commercial use images are no longer permitted. The pre-1955 photos are in the public domain -- it doesn't matter who took them (though it would be polite to give attribution where possible) or when it was published, if at all. Any photo taken after 1 January 1955 is not going to even begin to contemplate the merest thought of possibly being public domain until 2025 so you have to get the approval of the copyright holder to release it under a free licence. I don't know whether you can argue it is "fair dealing" to use a copyright photo of a person in an article about that person. Geoff/Gsl 10:13, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
  • As per Geoff, the Wikimedia foundation does not accept any restriction such as non-commercial use only. You would need to claim fair use. To understand more you really need to look at Misplaced Pages:Copyrights. The way to navigate is really going to be Fair use - if you claim Fair use, you need to ask whether anyone will challenge it? As per the discussion about media releases, I would think not.
I came across this page Misplaced Pages:Boilerplate request for permission which has some proformas for requesting permission and Misplaced Pages:Successful requests for permission which is where you need to file successful permission requests. --User:AYArktos | Talk 10:21, 25 October 2005 (UTC)


Crown copyright

I don't know if the same has been happening to you guys or not, but a large number of Canadian government-related images (portraits of political figures, etc.) have been deleted under an apparent conflict between the provisions of Crown copyright and the provisions of GFDL. I have requested clarification on the extent to which fair use can be applied. (Misplaced Pages is governed solely by American copyright law, because that's where the servers are located, so fair dealing isn't applicable.)

Consequently, I'm hereby asking for some Australian participation at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Crown copyright. Thanks. Bearcat 00:48, 24 October 2005 (UTC)


Melbourne and Sydney meetups

Hello Australian Wikipedians. :)

I'm going to be in Australia for the X|Media|Lab conference in November, and it would be great to meetup with some Wikipedians while I'm there, so please see Misplaced Pages:Meetup/Melbourne and/or Misplaced Pages:Meetup/Sydney. Angela. 03:59, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Indigenous categories

The cycle in the Indigenous Australian categories is now broken, and the graph is mainly in line with the proposal above. Th main differences are that I left A.A.music as a subcat of A.A.art, Native Title has not been renamed as yet, and I.A.leaders and I.A.politics are separate categories on the same level. It occurred to me that it might be worth making a new category:Indigenous Australian history. JPD (talk) 16:50, 26 October 2005 (UTC)


Australians at RfA

Two Australian editors have been nominated for adminship: Tony1 and Scott Davis. Please take the time to consider these nominations, and perhaps lend your support. Voting for Tony end October 31st whilst voting for Scott ends November 3rd. Thanks, --Cyberjunkie | Talk 15:51, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

College admissions

I've expanded the Australian section at this page (and created a redirect from University admission) - please add to it as you see necessary. Cheers Natgoo 00:07, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

State Route Shields

File:AU-SR.png
State Route Shield Template.

Just letting anyone know I have now added an attractive template of a general state route shield for use on roads. This design is based on many different ones used on Misplaced Pages, and I believe this is a good standard one to use for all states and territories using state route shields. Comments are appreciated on the design. I will soon complete a set of these of all the state route numbers used in Australia for use on all wikipedia articles on Australian roads. I am using a general Bold MS Sans Serif font which is generally used on Western Australian roads. The older style, thicker font is being is being phased out Australia wide for state route shields, so this was the most appropriate. Boochan 08:25, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't think we ever use blue shields in South Australia. We use green shields with yellow text prefixed by a letter. --Scott Davis 09:55, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Scott - I've seen the green with yellow text used in SA, Vic, Tas and NSW, generally for all road/highway signs like this. -- Chuq 10:09, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Hmmm... Well its still relatively widely used in Metro Areas of all Capital Cities, and Rural areas of WA, NT and some of QLD. SA, TAS & Country/Main Routes of VIC use the alphanumeric system. NSW just has a lot of National Highways. - Its just the previous ones were low quality JPGs or have very unusual formatting, so I just created a new cleaner, more accurate template. Boochan 11:06, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Links

Does anyone know why blue links are sometimes underlined and sometimes not? is there a formatting edit war going on somewhere? Adam 10:17, 30 October 2005 (UTC)


Industrial Relations

What do you all think about merging WorkChoices into 2005 Australian industrial relations law reform? While I think WorkChoices certainly warrents an article, I also think much of what is said in it should be said in the more general article and that a consolidated article is perhaps better at this stage. Thoughts?--Cyberjunkie | Talk 13:42, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

The OED defines "reform" as "the amendment of some faulty state of things... a change for the better... improvement or rectifying of something faulty or inexact." The word therefore cannot be used of Howard's legislation, since it is hotly disputed whether it is "a change for the better." It should be Australian industrial relations legislation, 2005, and if someone doesn't move it there, I will. Adam 13:53, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I've saved you the trouble, though like AYArktos says, someone will have to move it again when the bills make parliament. J.K. 01:59, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I think the article should be called by either the name of the bill or the package. Is it called the Industrial Relations Amendment Bill 2005? The article's name should incorporate the word Australian as per the example of Australian Anti-Terrorism Bill 2005. I agree the article on WorkChoices should be merged with 2005 Australian industrial relations law reform. --A Y Arktos (Talk) 01:01, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the bill is called, since it hasn't been introduced, tabled or even published. We might be able to find out another way, but I'm unsure how. It will probably be an amendment to the Workplace Relations Act 1996. I think we can say pretty safely that the Liberals won't have the words "industrial relations" in its title: they'll use their PR term - "workplace relations". --Cyberjunkie | Talk 01:37, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

There is also the problem of the Howard Government's increasing tendency to give legislation propagandistic titles. The bill might well be titled the Happy Future for Everyone Bill 2005, and I don't we could call our article that. Australian industrial relations legislation, 2005 is accurate and neutral. Adam 08:11, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

The DPMC is terming the bill Workplace Relations Amendment (Reform) Bill (.rtf) in its legislative schedule. The House cites five amendments as follows:
  • Workplace Relations Amendment (Better Bargaining) 2005;
  • Workplace Relations Amendment (Extended Prohibition of Compulsory Union Fees) 2005;
  • Workplace Relations Amendment (Fair Dismissal Reform) 2005;
  • Workplace Relations Amendment (Right of Entry) 2005; and,
  • Workplace Relations Amendment (Small Business Employment Protection) 2005.(.pdf)
Given the number amendments, I think Adam's title will suffice for the time being. Still, what about the proposed merger?--Cyberjunkie | Talk 08:39, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

ACOTF

Well, it's that time of the fortnight again. Sport in Australia received the most edits and editors since I've been doing ACOTF, even though it was longer to start with than most. It was ACOTF from 16 October 2005 to 30 October 2005

  • 24 contributors made 62 edits
  • The article increased from 2.12 kb to 5.39 - 3 times longer
  • See how much it changed

The new Australian collaboration of the fortnight is the Melbourne Cricket Ground.

I'm also wondering about changing the tie-breaker rules - comment at the talk page. --Scott Davis 14:00, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Australian Featured Article Candidates

There are currently two Australian articles up for featured article status at the moment. Waterfall Gully, South Australia and Canberra, please feel free to drop by Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates to lend your support or suggest improvements. --Martyman-(talk) 00:43, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


Melbourne cup

Which horse are you betting on tomorrow? :) I created this 2005 Melbourne Cup article with a table of horses Astrokey44 12:49, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Removing non-free images

Adam Carr has informed me that I need to request the permission of this group to edit certain articles. Therefore, I am requesting your permission to remove some images from Template:AustraliaPM. As the images are not under a free license, they fall under the "fair use" rules. Those rules state that non-free images cannot be used anywhere but directly in articles; use on templates is forbidden. I would like to remove the following images:

--Carnildo 04:22, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

We had a discussion on this very page on which images we can use (see "Public Domain images from NLA" above) and the response was that all pre-1955 images are in the Public Domain. Ergo, many of the images you list would be public domain (at first glance, at least 10 PM's listed died prior to 1955). Unless, as usual, I have completely misunderstood something here. --Roisterer 05:04, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
move them to the article then or remove them from the template, the actual image doesnt need to be deleted Astrokey44 05:10, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Why is it OK to use a photo in an article but not in a template? Adam 05:11, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I think the idea behid the template image purge is that there is no justification for fair use if you stick a fair use image of Bob Hawke on an unreated article like Edmund Barton.--nixie 05:22, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
American Fair Use entitles you to use copyrighted material in articles directly about the copyrigthed material, for such uses as parody or critique. Copyrighted photos of other prime ministers on a specific prime ministers page would not qualify. Australia's fair dealing criteria may be different, but I am not sure if that couts as we are uploading to the US. --Martyman-(talk) 05:23, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Some of them are not even copyright. Xtra 05:16, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I have replaced the copyright status for all of teh images pre-Menzies as they are in teh Public Domain. Not sure about any of the newer photos. --Martyman-(talk) 05:21, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Xtra previously posted on this page:
Under international copyright treaties a country will only recognise foreign material as copyright if the country it is from recognises the copyright. Therefore if it was made in Australia and Australia does not recognise copyright in it, then no other country will.
I have been unable to find a reference to support this, and remain of the view that images in the public domain in Australia are not necessarily so in the U.S. I am concerned that these images are being incorrectly retagged. Snottygobble | Talk 05:31, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
I have all sorts of qualms over the Australia-PD template, especially if people are using it on unpublished images released by the NLA or NAA that under Australian law are copyright in perpetuity.--nixie 05:39, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
The DMCA contians the following text which seems to imply that the US does not protect copyright once it has lapsed in it's home country:
Restoration of Copyright Protection
Both treaties require parties to protect preexisting works from other member
countries that have not fallen into the public domain in the country of origin through
the expiry of the term of protection. A similar obligation is contained in both the
Berne Convention and the TRIPS Agreement.
Also I am under the impression for photos taken before 1955 in Australia their publishment date does not come into the equation. --Martyman-(talk) 05:44, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Copyright is a national right, not an international one. The only reason why America recognises Australian copyright is because they have signed a treaty known as TRIPS, which is compulsory for countries who want to be members of the WTO. If you look at your local copyright act you will notice indicia of this. See for example s32(1) of the Australian copyright act which defines an author as an Australian - a qualified person is an Australian (see s32(4)). This only extends to foreign works due to application of TRIPS. Hence, copyright only exists internationally if it is recognised locally. Xtra 05:48, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

This PDF document gives the copyright durations for various publicaitons in Australia. --Martyman-(talk) 05:54, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

There's also the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works. Article 5(1) supports Xtra. --Scott Davis 06:16, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

As mentioned, my eyes glaze over at the sight of legalese, so if someone could wake me up at the end of this discussion and tell me whether all the pre-1955 images I have been adding to various articles are fine or need editing, removing or photoshopping in an image of me in the background holding a rubber chicken. --Roisterer 06:53, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

What he said. Adam 07:06, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I can see why you didn't complete law. If there is no copyright in Austalia, there is no copyright in the US. see Martyman's link above for what is no longer copyright. Generally, anonymous works pre 1955 are no longer copyright. If the author is know it is 50 years after the author's death if pre 1955 or 70 years if post 1955. Or something like that. Xtra 07:22, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

That is not what we were told previously. We were told that images created in Australia before 1955 were absolutely free of copyright, regardless of the author/photographer's identity or date of death. Do you believe this not to be the case? (One of the reasons I didn't continue with law was the realisation that lawyers can never agree about anything). Adam 07:35, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

This may be the case for other copyrighted works, but photographs are simple. Pre-1955 = Public Domain fullstop. --Martyman-(talk) 08:01, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Here is a replication of sections 33 and 34 of the Copyright Act

33 Duration of copyright in original works
(1) This section has effect subject to subsection 32(2) and to section 34.
(2) Subject to this section, copyright that subsists in a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work by virtue of this Part continues to subsist until the end of 70 years after the end of the calendar year in which the author of the work died.
(3) If, before the death of the author of a literary work (other than a computer program) or a dramatic or musical work:

(a) the work had not been published; (b) the work had not been performed in public; (c) the work had not been broadcast; and (d) records of the work had not been offered or exposed for sale to the public; the copyright in the work continues to subsist until the end of 70 years after the end of the calendar year in which the work is first published, performed in public, or broadcast, or records of the work are first offered or exposed for sale to the public, whichever is the earliest of those events to happen.

(4) A reference in the last preceding subsection to the doing of an act in relation to a work shall be read as including a reference to the doing of that act in relation to an adaptation of the work.
(5) If, before the death of the author of an engraving, the engraving had not been published, the copyright in the engraving continues to subsist until the end of 70 years after the end of the calendar year in which the engraving is first published.
34 Duration of copyright in anonymous and pseudonymous works
(1) Subject to subsection (2), if the first publication of a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work is anonymous or pseudonymous, any copyright subsisting in the work by virtue of this Part continues to subsist until the end of the period of 70 years after the end of the calendar year in which the work was first published.
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply in relation to a work if, at any time before the end of the period referred to in that subsection, the identity of the author of the work is generally known or can be ascertained by reasonable inquiry.

A photograph is an artistic work (section 10(1))

Please ignore the 70 for pre 1955 images, as the Act was ammended.

But it demonstrates that if the author is known, the relevant date is their death. Xtra 08:12, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Known to whom? Adam 08:56, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

  1. "Watiyawanu / Mt Liebig - MacDonnell Shire". Archived from the original on 2011-04-06.
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