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Policy archive

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License for userpage images

I recently created an image tagging template, template:userpage-image, for images used on userpages. The template specifies that the images are not "free", in that they may not be used outside userpage space, as fx I want the privacy of deciding who can use my image of myself.

I though this was the obvious way to go, as it seems perfectly reasonable to me. It doesn't matter to Misplaced Pages's goal of building a 💕 that the images are non-free, as long as they are only used on userspace pages. It is also my impression that I was simply writing down existing practice.

Now template:userpage-image as been put on templates for deletion, and the userpage images which used it has been listed on IFD as non-GFDL images. If this goes through it seems to establish policy that all images in the future must be GFDL. Surprisingly, the consensus so far seems to be delete, though as far as I can see no arguments with merit has been put forth for deletion. So I am asking that people take a look, and hopefully vote keep :). Thue | talk 00:03, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

It's been put up for deletion because it violates about half our rules for images. Among other things, it's effectively a by-permission license (disallowed by Jimbo on May 19), it doesn't allow re-use (same), it does not permit commercial use (same), it violates the rule that all user-owned images uploaded to Misplaced Pages must be licensed under the GFDL (see the text on the upload page), it violates the principle that this is a free content encyclopedia, and I'm sure there are other policies it violates. --Carnildo 04:17, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I am aware that the template clearly violates the literal wording of a number of policies and rules. But those policies were established to make Misplaced Pages a 💕, and in no way does allowing non-free images on userpages compromise Misplaced Pages's basic goal. I think it is fundamentalist thinking to enforce those rules in this case, when the template is clearly not in conflict with the idea behind the policies. See also the policy Misplaced Pages:Ignore all rules Thue | talk 08:00, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Just to underscore my argument that non-free userpage images is current practice: Board member User:Anthere of the Wikimedia foundation, which is the controlling body for Misplaced Pages, uses an unfree image on her userpage (Image:DSCN3334.JPG)... Thue | talk 16:16, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

• I've floated a couple of proposals for this area on wikien-l, aiming to keep our copyright status clean whilst allowing such restricted images. Comments welcome. Shimgray | talk | 14:11, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Would it be possible to retain copyright of the image, but claim fair-use on your userpage? --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 21:10, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Existing policy is that fair use can only be claimed for article pages; images tagged fair use and not linked from articlespace are considered unused. Policy is then to get rid of them, because we're not a hosting service for copyrighted material - they don't benefit the project just sitting there, and they're actively a legal hazard to keep around. Yes, these caveats don't really apply for userphotos - you're not going to sue wiki for hosting an image you uploaded - but it seems to be currently thought that having no exceptions and thus no ambiguity is better than the small benefit of allowing userphotos. Does that make sense? Shimgray | talk | 01:03, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I received a message stating to me that images I uploaded (as the author) can not be tagged with a copyright by the Misplaced Pages Foundation. One particular image titled "Le Marche.JPG" seem to create a problem (see Ariele's talk page for further details). Can someone explain? Ariele 12:58, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages and autism

Should Don't bite the newbies apply to autists? I am concerned that in two recent cases, one of which is up before the arbitration committee, newcomers exhibiting what appears to be autistic behavior, not obvious vandals and not obvious trolls, have been abused and alienated because other editors did not understand their behavior.

Perhaps Misplaced Pages needs a policy or guideline to enable Recent changes patrollers, who are often the first to notice new editors, to recognise autistic editing patterns and welcome autists in a more appropriate manner.

• More on that here --Tony Sidaway 06:24, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

• Don't bite the newbies should of course apply to everyone. The question at hand is whether it should apply more to people suspected of being autists. I think it should be applied evenly to anyone who seems to genuinely want to be helpful, whether or not we suspect they are autists. Are they courteous & accepting of constructive criticism & trying to improve? If so, then we should work with them regardless of why they are making mistakes. If not, then what difference does it make if they are autists or not? If not, they are never going to be positive contributors ... their attitude, whatever the source, prevents improvement. And, how do we make the determination of likely autism anyway? I looked at the talk pages of the two editors you mention. Wiki brah seems repeatedly insincere to me; Maoririder seems well-intentioned but challenged. Isn't that what we need to know over the long haul. Of course, we should also Assume Good Faith where possible, but sometimes that defies rationality ... one of the reasons vandal blocks and RFC and arbitration exist. Derex @ 07:45, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

• I don't see any particular reason we should treat contributions differently based upon some supposition of some or another "ism". Misplaced Pages is not therapy; our goal here is to produce the best encyclopedia we can; and if contributors for whatever reason are unable or unwilling to abide by the policies and structures here, why should it matter if they're autistic, schizophrenic, mean, depressed, incurable optimists, or whatever. It's certainly not for people on RC patrol to try to guess whether a person is a troll or an autist; taking a look at Wiki brah's contributions -- in particular the dozen or so inane articles that he started that were deleted, such as Anal sex in Brasil, List of Reasons why Doing Cocaine in Brasil is fun, Jesus Fish on Cars in the U.S.A., not to mention his bizarre templates -- what "autistic editing patterns" here distinguish from non-autistic nonsense generators? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 18:47, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Exactly; consider users based on their edits not on labels inferred (perhaps rightly, perhaps wrongly) as a way of explaining the why behind the edits. Courtland 19:03, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Otherwise we'll need labels to apply to article fragments which require special care due to reasons for edits, as opposed to the content of the edits. That way lies templateitis. (SEWilco 19:20, 11 October 2005 (UTC))

• I don't think it's as simple as judging everybody the same. Whether we want to or not, we tend to judge intentions by actions. Understanding that some editors may not interpret a communication in the way that we expect is part of required civility. I see this as a way in which Misplaced Pages can enable good editors to function within Misplaced Pages, by avoiding pitfalls which can be observed in interactions with "Martians", or "Weird" editors (to avoid a problematic pseudo-medical diagnosis) who clearly show both competence, willingness and good faith in their editing but may exhibit unusual patterns of editing. --Tony Sidaway 13:17, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

• Can you give some concrete examples of how we would be able to recognize this? I think I can recognize intent, despite an odd editing pattern, by observing interactions on talk. I have no idea how to recognize an autistic editing pattern. But I think I do know how to recognize a trolling pattern of editing: wiki_brah's obsession with anal sex, jewish women, & cocaine. Derex @ 14:12, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

• It's possible he is a troll, but in general the best way is to do voluntary work with autistics for a while, and you'll soon get the hang of it. If they're acting inapporpriately but in an apparently confused way, then that's a hallmark of autism. Same with obsessions with certain subjects. Also liking patterns.

Incidentally, a lot of people on wikipedia, paticularly the bureaucratic, will be autistic. They like rules and regulations, arbitration comittees, steering groups, memoranda, etc etc, and it's the sort of thing that autistics (I'm talking here mostly about people with aspergers or higher functioning autists) would do.

BTW, a very strong contra-indication of autism is a sense of humour. Anyone who's funny, unless they dervive their humour almost exclusively through obscure references to films/Simpsons episodes (you know the kind of person I mean ) is not autistic. Spankthecrumpet 19:34, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

So we should (a) tell a joke (b) check if they are on the arbitration committee (c) figure out whether they are confused, or just stoned, or (d) all volunteer to work with autistics? While I like the idea of being sensitive about special needs, I still think the intent barometer is the relevant one and also the one we can reasonably assess (besides being an arbitrator). Derex @ 19:52, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Assume good faith and don't bite anybody... but bad edits are bad edits even if they are done by someone with special needs. It's easy to fix an edit. It's beyond our scope to allow bad edits from well-intentioned people who may be suffering from a malady or drug though. If it looks like a bad edit it probably is. Pedant 16:35, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Image licenses

After reading this on UninvitedCompany's user talk,

Misplaced Pages no longer permits combinations of the CC licenses that include the NC or ND clauses, because they hinder reuse. They have been discouraged for some time and have been prohibited for new images since May. If you are able to have the files relicensed under CC-BY-SA or GFDL you can re-upload them. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 01:39, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I came up with an idea. At least in my case (probably others too), a lot of the pictures I want to put up are mainly for my user page, or to show others something that I need help identifying. The ones I would put on my user page are the ones that I would most want to have NC or ND clauses, so the obvious answer is to allow such clauses, but only allow those pictures to be displayed on user pages. Can I get some feedback on this idea? CanadaGirl 02:43, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

All images on Misplaced Pages must be under a free license. Free content is a foundation issue for Misplaced Pages. Non-commercial images uploaded after May 2005 can be speedied. Different licensing for user-pages is not an option. Superm401 | Talk 07:36, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

If a NC image adds value to an article and cannot easily be replaced with a free image, then it should stay until a suitable replacement can be found or better licensing terms can be obtained. I find it deeply offensive, having been asked to remove content in the French wikipedia with no other explanation than "Jimbo said so". Finally coming across the explanation above, I find its ideological purity grating and ham-handed, when it results in the exclusion of content that enhances the educational value of Misplaced Pages. I thought education was a "foundation issue" for Misplaced Pages, too. Maybe I'm just too naive. Wouldn't want to stand in the way of freedom of commerce, would we now. God knows there isn't enough of _that_. --Girouette 03:35, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps actually reading Meta:Foundation issues might help. It is not a question of impeding freedom of commerce, really. It is a question of impeding freedom. Any non-commercial image is one that can't be distributed to our mirrors. Any non-commercial image is one that can't ever be published as a hard copy, because those publications would inevitably have to charge at least a nominal fee. For maximal freedom in the sense of liberty, not price, we have the NC rule. If you have a problem with Jimbo's authority on the Wikimedia projects, you have the right to leave. I don't recommend it, but it's an option. Even better, if you left, you could take our content with you. That's the power of freedom. Superm401 | Talk 05:32, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

OK, so I read the Foundation issues page. Actually, I did read it a while back, when I did not feel so directly concerned. "Jimbo said so" is indeed a perfectly sufficient explanation in this corner of the universe. With all the talk about the power of freedom, you'll forgive me if I momentarily forgot the bit about supreme authority being in the hands of one man. I will therefore remove the offending content (and only that ; everything else, I freely donated and will not take back). --24.37.241.111 12:21, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Is you advice to request a relicense to GFDL of any pictures uploaded "By Permission" (like Comet picture) from the copyright owner? I had used an old "standard form" email to ask for this permission, and now it seems this is no longer "allowed". Or might it be enough to dig out the email exchange with the owner? Awolf002 14:02, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Articles about Companies

Hi, I noticed that there artciles on larger companies such as "Rolex", "Breitling", etc.

I would like to write a small article about my company, which is not such a huge company. I know the policy states that this is not a place to advertise businesses, and that would not be my sole purpose.

I am wondering what differentiates articles on companies such as Rolex from the type of article I am proposing to write?

Wouldn't it be fair to say that if an article is allowed about 1 company that it should be allowed for all?

I appreciate your support.

Small companies tend to be a pain to verify and there are issues of original reseach. There is also the issue of wether such a topic would be encyopedic.Geni 05:00, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

There are some rough guidelines on this page regarding what corporations and products might be suitable for Misplaced Pages products. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 05:02, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

"I would like to write a small article about my company, which is not such a huge company."

to avoid problems, I would wait until someone else writes about your company, otherwise it may easily be construed as vanity or advertisement. Also, as you say, it's a small company. Is there some notability which would make it worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia? Is the information about your company available elsewhere or is it your own original research? Original research, vanity articles and articles that are {or might be reasonably assumed to be) advertisement are generally not allowed by Misplaced Pages custom and policy. Pedant 17:47, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I significantly differ in my views from those expressed by User:Pedant. I would say not to hesitate writing about your company here; I work for a multinational that has an article here and I have contributed to it from time to time without feeling that I should recuse myself based on my affiliation. There mere fact that you have asked what you have here indicates that you are aware of the potential for POV and the introduction of trivia, which is far more than I can say for a lot of editors. User:Pedant has pointed you to probably the best place to start. Also, the matter of "original research" should not go so far as to keep you from including personal observations that do not appear in a web or printed resource (this has been recently and vigorously discussed at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (proposals)#Writing from personal experience). Remember also that there are several levels of writing about a company; perhaps first you would want to determine whether your company exists in the several lists that might contain it; perhaps a full article is not warranted right now but only a mention of something significant in the context of another article. Regards, Courtland 01:02, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Can the nominator retract an AfD before it has run its course?

In the past week, I have seen two occasions where an article was tagged with {{AfD}}, then the nominator saw that several users voted to Keep, and then changed his/her mind and removed the AfD tag before the nom has run its course. Is that permitted? In one case I retagged the article, even though I agreed that it needed to be kept, and voted so. --Rogerd 03:27, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

If pretty much everyone agres that a page should be kept, and particualrly if the nominator has withdrawn the nomination, and admin can and often will clsoe the AfD early as a speedy keep. The nominator should usually withdraw by strinking out the parts of the nomination he now does not agree with, and inserting a comment/vote in which he changes his view to keep (or whatever). The nominator should not, IMO simply remove the afd tag -- leave that for the closer, who should not be a person deeply involved in the discussion, as the nom clearly is. DES 03:44, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

On the other hand, if it's not the case that "pretty much everyone" has voted to keep it, then the nominator shouldn't have any special power to kill the discussion. Other editors who favor deletion have refrained from listing it because it was already listed. It wouldn't be fair to them if the first person to list the article were given a preferred position. JamesMLane 05:13, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Quite true. But the nominator publicly changing his or her view often has a powerful effect in persuading others to do likewise. Not always of course. DES 16:30, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree, it sounds like both of you are saying that the AfD shouldn't be removed by the nominator, regardless of how the voting is going, but should be removed only by an admin, either at the end of the voting or if he/she deems it worth of a speedy keep or speedy keep. Thanks for the input --Rogerd 05:21, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Correct. Strictly speaking, to close an Afd as keep one does not need to be an admin. But one should be an experienced wikipeidian, and not involved in the particular debate. I would advise leaving speedy keep decisions to admins. I have seen people vote "speey keep" as a sugestion to a potential closer. DES 16:30, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Due to the sheer numbers of articles listed in Afd, many editors are trying to hurry things along. I sometimes see articles deletes after a day or 2 rather than 5, if consensus is already clear. You now see speedy keeps done sometimes too, also presumably to save time. IMO, if the nominator withdraws and there's not much serious opposition, closing the Afd is fine. However, there should be no prejudice in such cases against another Afd- if any editor feels there's a legit reason to delete, he should not be silenced just because there was a speedy keep. In general, this probably won't happen much - if controversy is anticipated, the Afd should be left open. Friday (talk) 17:19, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I am getting conflicting opinions here. Friday is saying that what I saw may be OK. Others are saying it has to be an admin. In both of these cases, there was clear consensus that the article should be kept, including the nominator (who changed his mind). --Rogerd 21:15, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Please take my remarks as my own personal opinion, not an attempt to explain policy. However, policy may be a bit grey here. The reason admins primarily close afd's is that deleting of the article is often required. Non-admins can and do close Afds sometimes when a deletion is not required. In practice, if consensus to keep is clear, it's unlikely there will be any controversy, no matter who closes it. Friday (talk) 22:57, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Friday here. Howver, closing an AfD, even a pretty clear speedy keep, is probably not something someone on his first month of editing should try. Besides, speedy keeps are relatively easy, someone will grab one pretty quick. It is the really tricky cases that sit unclosed. DES 02:37, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Fair use and Crown Copyright

Please review Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Crown copyright, a discussion of how Crown Copyright relates to fair use (created by Bearcat). Superm401 | Talk 03:11, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Expertise counting extra on AfD's

I have recently seen it contended, for the first time in my experience, that being an "expert" on a topic should give someone's opinions additional weight in an AfD. This claim was made here: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Able and Baker (2nd nomination). (Note that the outcome of the AfD is irrelevant here; I might end up changing my vote anyway.) The claim was supported with this quote from Jimbo, which I don't read as having anything to do with expertise. Rather, I tend to assume "credibility" and "reputation" refer to having a track record of editing in good faith—which means doing enough research to "vote" in an informed way. I can't see how giving special emphasis to "expert" editors on AfD's makes any more sense than giving them special rights in the article namespace—which, I understand from WP:NOR#The role of expert editors, we don't do.

Obviously, of course, experts will likely be able to cite reputable sources, and sway people to their opinion in AfD's. I am referring only to the contention that the admin closing the debate should give the single "expert" user's opinon extra weight in the debate.

I'd like to hear other views on this, or maybe be referred to previous debates/discussions that shed light on this. It doesn't make sense to me at all, but I could be wrong. -- SCZenz 22:52, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

It has to be done on pure numbers, IMO. How are we to judge whether any particular voter on AfD is an "expert" or not? Until we have a system of assigning expert users in the way that we do admins I can't see how this is workable as it would mean that action could no longer be taken on weight of votes alone, you would have to go in and research who was making each vote. --bodnotbod 22:59, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

As the would-be expert in question, I prepared User:Snowspinner/Webcomics prior to asserting my expertise, and I am happy to back up any part of that with evidence via e-mail as needed. Snowspinner 23:07, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I count the numbers, but I also look to see what people are saying. I think common sense still has to come into play. After all someone may post a very good point at the end of an AfD that runs against the fall of the votes (the previous voters may voted without the knowledge of this late info). I don't think we can have experts, but I think we do have to listen to convincing voices. After all, if some truly is an expert, then they should be able to convince us of the encyclopaedic worth of something. If they can't do that, then they probably aren't experts in the first place. --Gareth Hughes 23:10, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

That would work better if there were reason to believe that everybody actually read deletion debates while voting anymore. Snowspinner 23:38, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith. There doesn't have to be reason to believe it. -- SCZenz 23:40, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Bad faith has made itself more than apparent. Snowspinner 23:46, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

But I don't think verification is the issue here, or at least it's only part of it. Regardless of whether expertise can be verified (in general, I'm not sure it can) it's not clear that it should count more even if it can be verified. I think we all know it doesn't in the article namespace, so the question really is why information that's inadmissible in articles would be admissible in AfD's. -- SCZenz 23:13, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I just read what Jimmy Wales said about it. I think the issue now has to be whether one wishes to challenge Jimmy on his "trust the expert / admin instincts" view. Because I see little value arguing here when, ultimately, those who take the "expert / admin instinct" side of the argument can point towards Jimmy's pronouncement as policy. I have to say, I was rather surprised at his view. I can understand it, but of the flaws inherent in either course of action, I would have thought abuse is far more likely in the hands of the few than of the many voters. I struck out my comment as ill-founded. --bodnotbod 23:53, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. Jimbo's statement is a completely separate issue; there's nothing there about expertise. It refers to the "judgement and credibility" of wikipedia editors, which I take to refer to their history of editing in good faith and making sensible decisions—not to external expertise they claim. -- SCZenz 23:56, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, you're right. He doesn't mention expertise. Um... I'm too much in need of sleep to now add anything useful. But I'll strike out my previous comment as unhelpful in this debate. --bodnotbod 00:15, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I think there is a role for expertise, but it very rarely will come into play. For instance, let's say that someone sporting an IP address for a name steps up and says "I think that you can't delete the article Fastidius Ungerus of Rome; I am an expert in Roman History and that person was KEY to moving the Senate forward on Point X". In a situation with an anonymous user, that just has to be laughed at, I think; but in the event where someone is verifiably a scholar of Roman History and has penned books and articles on which Misplaced Pages would draw as reference material .. that should (must) be taken into account in the decision making process. Like I said, rarer than a long-tailed manx, but still to be considered. With all deference to other folks here, I wouldn't invoke this type of mantle of expertise for someone who has only authored faithfully, long, and well on Misplaced Pages; they must demonstrate that their expertise extends beyond Misplaced Pages, into the "real world". This, by the way, is a criteria for promotion beyond a certain level in some types of organizations (particularly research organizations), demonstration that people outside of the company see the candidate as an expert in their field. Courtland 04:17, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Why wouldn't the expert in your example have to cite an article somewhere? Surely he could. -- SCZenz 04:25, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

It depends; verifiability is not always dependent on ability to support by citations. However, being a recognized expert doesn't suddenly lead to suspension of Misplaced Pages guidelines regarding citations. Courtland 12:26, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

But it does seem like some rules for use of sources in article-writing are suspended for evidence given in AfD's (esp. to determine notability), or at least a large fraction of Wikipedians think so. Are there any relevant policies/guidelines on this, or discussions somewhere? -- SCZenz 16:16, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

One thing that should be mentioned in this discussion is time. When providing an edit to an article, we have an attitude of "eventually." If I, as an expert, am busy, and do not have time to go do research to find a great quote, and it waits for a week or two, no harm is done.

Deletion debates are completely different. They have a five day window, after which it is inordinately difficult to overturn them. Which means that experts are expected to do all necessary citation and sourcing work on a deadline, or else the article will be deleted forevermore. That's not reasonable. If deletion debates are going to have a deadline, we have to also be more permissive in giving people who know what they're talking about preference, citations or no. Snowspinner 19:05, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I'll buy that. I just think it should be reflected in other users' agreement with the expert (as is happening in the AfD I cited above), and not—except in extraordinary circumstances, like a new, list minute expert opinion—counted extra by the closer of the debate. -- SCZenz 19:13, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Image:Hepburnandtracy.jpg

Why this pic haven't be deleted ? What are you doing here ? Do you know other projects needs to copy your pics ? We need trust your content, please do something. I don't understand what kind of policy you do. I know other projects needs you to be more grave. Petrusbarbygere 02:28, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Since the image doesn't meet any of the criteria at WP:CSD, it will have to wait 5 days before it can be removed, given that there are no objections to it's removal at WP:IFD. -Greg Asche (talk) 21:28, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I've taken off the IFD tag, as I see no reason it should be deleted, and no such reasoning was ever added to the IFD page. ~~ N (t/c) 20:42, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

In the context of an article about Katherine Hepburn, the picture surely qualifies for fair use. Misplaced Pages is in no trouble here. However, if you copy it and distribute it, you are in the wrong, unless you also have some claim to fair use. To see an image's licensing status, click on the image and read the image's license from the page that opens. Pedant 17:55, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Keep rendering wiki-lks with underlining

The traditional and valuable underlining of lks w/in WP (& i presume into sister-projects) has been coming and going, as if someone is working on that code & testing it live. Hopefully that is not proposed as a new standard. If someone prefers it, then it should become a Prefs choice: lks are the lifeblood of WP, and making them less visible is bad not only immediately for users but also for WP in the long run. (I hate to think what the 5-10% of color blind users would do; the blue-vs.-black contrast is low enough for my normal vision.)
--Jerzy•t 19:52, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

It's already a preference, under "Misc". It's possible to control the formatting even more finely with one's personal CSS file. I don't see any recent changes to link formatting in any of the MediaWiki skin messages (Monobook.css, Common.css, Cologneblue.css, Amethyst.css, Chick.css, Nostalgia.css, Simple.css, and Standard.css), so it's not clear where (or why) this might have happened. —Charles P. (Mirv) 20:22, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Some time agor the default prefernce settign for those not logged in, or who have never selected a preference seems to have changed. Thhis has no effect on anyoejn logged in who has a preference specified, as i understanf things. I belive that teh default setting for "Underline links" used to be "always" and it is now "browser default". DES 20:46, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

_ _ Hmm. I'm confused! Always is set, & i've not tampered with it -- except if changing from classic to mono about a month ago counts -- at least in the last year. I presently have multiple windows open, with an old one showing the underlining & several new ones showing no underlining (and some logically related differences i could describe). I think the first time i noted any lack of underlining was Friday.

_ _ However, i did, a month or two ago, try to change my copy of the CSS (only with regard to background color, which seemed to work while i was previewing it, but not once i saved it!). I'm going to try flipping it on & off with prefs, and reverting to the original CSS in case the change of skin or CSS editing is the culprit. (Or is it worth deleting the CSS after i save the versions off-line?) Additional directions to explore in, if those two fail, continue to be of interest!

_ _ I show Classic under my Skin tab, but not yr "Standard"; is that either a slip of the tongue or the old name?

_ _ (IMO this should be moved to VP (tech) if it goes on much longer.)
--Jerzy•t 21:34, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

• If you have several windows open with different undelrline style on links, check if soem are in a not-logged-in status. (look for the log-in link in the upper right corner, and the absence of a move tab, among other differences). I often find that a particualr browser instance somehow is treted as not-logged-in, and displays links in a non-underlined way. DES 21:40, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
• Thank you for your persistence in helping. In answer to these latest suggestions, i have left two open windows (that were refreshed in one case between 19:52 and 20:16, and in the other between 20:22 and 21:34) that show no underlining. Both have "log out" and my username, & thus must be logged in in the eyes of WP. (I.e., i infer those instances presented the cookie at the time they were refreshed, which must be what you mean by "being treated as logged in" IIRC.) All others since i went to Never, then saved, then went back to Always, & saved, have been underlined as before. (There's a minor wrinkle i haven't time now to re-check & describe accurately.) I've also copied the current Monbook.CSS back on top of my personal one, with no discernable effect. (When i try Never or Browser default, i again lose the underlining.) I will try cycling my setting in this way before complaining again, but i'd be grateful for comment on the wrinkle, which i should manage to get described in next 6 hours.
  --Jerzy•t 22:33, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
  
• There was a time a month or perhaps two ago when I saw the underlining come and go; at the time I interpreted it either as was suggested here (someone tinkering with code) or a load-related problem impacting on access to the MonoBook (default) skin which I have always used here. I haven't seen this happen recently (weeks). Courtland 23:25, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
• The other symptom that was too murky by then to describe from memory was per my notes a recollection of not seeing any boxes with the link (as opposed to piping) when i hovered the non-underlined lks. "It only happened once, so it didn't really happen." It may be that i hovered long enuf for the underling to show, but moved away too fast for the slightly slower box to show up as it does now. (Also, i don't want to believe in this symptom, as it seems hard to blame on the server, which must have had some kind of involvement with the underlining since cycling the Prefs setting fixed it; by same token, i don't want to believe in having client & server problems coincide. I prefer to believe my observations were careless!) Thanks to all.
  --Jerzy•t 08:48, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
  

Uploading .pdf images

Hi,

I've been patrolling images the last few days and noticed a few instances of people uploading .pdf files. Image:Turinys.pdf is an example from today. What is the intention of letting people do this? It won't show up as an image in our pages. (And, probably beside the point, it's not really a free format.) Tempshill 22:06, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

It's discussed briefly on Misplaced Pages:Media. IMO, it's as much an image as Ogg Vorbis recordings are -- it's just an artifact of MediaWiki that file uploads are in the Image namespace. I'd say to treat them case by case like any other content -- complete sources belong on Wikisource, non-free content is a copyvios, things that should be images or wikitext should be converted, and PDFs that function best as PDFs to support articles stay. The usefulness of Image:Turinys.pdf specifically seems questionable given that it is unlinked and Cyrillic, though. — mendel ☎ 04:13, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Proposed changes to arbitration elections and policy

In response to Jimbo's intervention, I've offered a proposal regarding the Arbitration Committee elections, which would affect how the arbitration system works generally. Please direct comments to the linked page. --Michael Snow 04:42, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages articles about people are badly titled

I am deeply troubled that Misplaced Pages uses a badly biased naming scheme of entries for people. I have two important things to say.

A., Why there are articles titled like "Marilyn Monroe"? It should only exist as a redirect! Why is "Norma Jean" a redirect, when it should be the title of the article about the silver screen godess? You can't escape your name. When you are born it is written in both the church book and the state/secular register. Everything else or later is just a pseudonym. Especially the artists and celebs change their pseudonyms often, e.g. why move the silicon megabreast scandal lady article every two weeks when a certain "Pamela Anderson" adds Denis or Lee to her signature?

Policy is to use the most common name, to reduce confusion by readers. This is a bit of a judgement call but seems to work (but see Gdansk). ~~ N (t/c) 12:16, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Even if that is a common TLA and far from the most common usage of that TLA? See Avi as an example. Vegaswikian 21:50, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages should always use the birth name of people, because that is the only thing unchangeable and objective. An encyclopedia must have stability and lack of stability is currently the biggest problem of wikipedia.

I don't follow. ~~ N (t/c) 12:16, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Also, this would eliminate inherently controversial article titles like "Queen Elisabeth II" or "Pope John Paul II". These should only exist as an automatic redirect that points to the person's birth name, wich is the article title. The USA does not recognize any kind of nobility or monarchic title. Many many people and countries of the world are offended by such claims of title, since the idea of nobility and feudalism are against the nature and the only source of authority is the body of population. Since Misplaced Pages is an encyclopaedia, which is a kind of thingie invented by the enlightment movement, it should follow that philosophycal ideology, which states liberty, egality, fraternity and thus all people are equal by nature and that is unchangeable. Thus inheritable or feudal/religious titles are out of the question.

For Misplaced Pages to explicitly take an anti-monarchial position would be POV. These people are most commonly known by their titles. ~~ N (t/c) 12:16, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

For Misplaced Pages to follow any ideology at all would be inherently POV. Misplaced Pages is in the business of objectively documenting facts and occurances, and thus needs to use either the most commonly recognized name or the name that the person self-identifies with (in most cases these are the same). If Misplaced Pages did otherwise, it would be going out of its way to push a particular viewpoint, which is bad and quite the definition of POV. -- Tyler 17:31, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

If you use the birth name only and always the birth name of people for article titles, not even the monarchists can accuse you of bias, because it is an objective matter of fact, written in ink on the register's paper. As a sidenote, monarchs can be removed and that happens sometimes. If this happens you do not need to change the name of the article, only its contents. E.g. there is a very small finite possibility the crowned lady of UK will end her days cleaning streets in the Islamic Republic of England, where UBL is the ajatollah. In this case neither article needs to be renamed if you use the birth names.

Renaming articles is easy and not that obtrusive. ~~ N (t/c) 12:16, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

No, that's wrong. Someone who holds a title that they are best known by continues to be referred to with that title in histories after they have died or been deposed. There's no reason that Pope Pius X should be renamed simply because he's not the current Pope. -- Tyler 17:31, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

B.,

> Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (people) starts from the idea that names in the format > <First name> <Last name> are usually the least problematic as page name for an article on a single person.

Please note, even this sentence is very problematic, because most non-native speakers of english cannot reliably remember what "first name" and "last name" mean and the whole idea is inherently ambigious. Please always use the phrases "family name" (e.g. McPherson) and "given name" (e.g. John) so everybody understands what is it about!

But whether "first name" = "given name" depends on the language - see Kim Jong-il. ~~ N (t/c) 12:16, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Indeed. I briefly worked with Far Eastern students at a UK university; one of the standard password-generation algorithms involved the first name and surname. It was essentially random which way round the system had decided their names went...

To address the original problem - "birth name" being eternal is a relatively local phenomenon anyway. In some western countries alone -

• a name can legally be changed irrevocably with nothing more than personal whim - I decide that henceforth I am to be known as John Smith, and that's the end of it
• historically, someone could be known by a geographical name - see, say, Leonardo da Vinci, which is much the same as the US President being "George of New Haven" - with the correct name being almost unknown (or potentially even unrecorded)
• a child can be registered at birth with no name given to the registrar, simply "infant child" or the like
• may be changed for political or personal reasons in adulthood; if we named Pope Alexander VI as Rodrigo Borgia, we'd still be 'wrong', as he was Rodrigo Lanzol until he was 14
• historically, may have been latinised - Carolus Linnaeus rather than Carl Linnaeus, or the great Erasmus

When someone is known most commonly in English by a name different from the "correct" one in their native language, we use that. So why not extend the same courtesy to those whose native language happens to be English? Shimgray | talk | 13:39, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Regards: Tamas Feher from Hungary <etomcat at freemail.hu> 195.70.32.136 11:53, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't know for certain, but I would imagine Misplaced Pages is not alone in listing Norma Jean under the article title Marilyn Monroe.

Misplaced Pages is an encyclopaedia, which is a kind of thingie invented by the enlightment movement.

Can this go at the top of the Main Page please? --bodnotbod 12:23, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

The current policy is fine. "Marilyn Monroe" is the name she went by as a public figure, which I believe ends the discussion. If the terms "first name" and "last name" are unfamiliar to readers in some countries, well, they can learn. It's not worth having a bot go through and try to correct every single culturally-local term in Misplaced Pages. Tempshill 16:16, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Burning Man, images, GFDL, and unusual image restrictions

We've encountered some unusual issues in regards to image use and the GFDL on Talk:Burning Man. The Burning Man event requires that all attendees agree not to use images they take at the event for commercial purposes.

We are attempting to obtain permission from the Burning Man organization to use some pictures on the page, but they are leery of releasing images under the GFDL. Even reporters and other members of the media, who are given special permission to make commercial use of images they take, must agree to very restrictive uses of those images which are probably incompatible with the GFDL. The discussion is two fold: is there a way to get the BMorg to agree to our use of the images, and if they do not agree what do we do? This is an unusual issue with which I am having some difficulty applying our image policies and may not be an area which has come up in exactly this way before.

Background on the discussion can be found at Talk:Burning Man#Images of/at Burning_Man and Talk:Burning Man#Letter to Bman's Media Team. The most recent updates and ongoing discussion can be found in Talk:Burning Man#Dialogue w/ Burning Man Media Team 2.

Comments from those more experienced in these issues appreciated on that page. Kit 01:54, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

If they do not agree, we delete the images. You say they are available for non-commercial use only: that makes them speedies by decree of Jimbo unless and until agreement is reached. They have the option of releasing them into the public domain, of course, but I don't suppose they'll like that much either. You may be able to rope in someone from the Foundation for assistance. -Splash 01:59, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Isn't the person who takes the photo the sole holder of the copyright? How can the Burning Man org regulate the copyright under which photos taken by attendees fall under? -Greg Asche (talk) 02:26, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Using a small number of photos, for which no free alternatives exist, in the context of illustrating the Burning Man article itself would in my judgment qualify for a fair use tag. It is not as good as having a GFDL image, but it allows them to maintain the ownership they desire while asserting our legal right to make limited, educational use of otherwise copyrighted materials. Dragons flight 02:35, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Someone might take pictures without participating in an agreement, and own the copyright. Are we supposed to enforce an agreement in which we are not participating? (SEWilco 03:01, 27 October 2005 (UTC))

First of all, we are under no legal obligation to enforce an agreement to which we are not a party. If a photo has been legitimately released under the GFDL, we can use the photos however we want, provided we abide by the terms of the GFDL.

The agreement does state "commercial use of all imagery taken at Burning Man is forbidden without express permission". If someone releases photos they have taken at Burning Man under the GFDL, and those photos are subsequently used commercially, the photographer may be in violation of the agreement. Given that, I think it would be wise to advise our users who upload photos from Burning Man and attempt to release them under the GFDL that doing so may be in violation of their contract with Burning Man, and that they should consult their lawyer before doing so. I do not think that Misplaced Pages and the foundation are at legal risk for using Burning Man photos which have been released by the photographers under the GFDL, so any policy we adopt should not be justified by an argument that using those photos puts us at any legal risk.

The question about the legal risk to the photographers themselves, though, is less clear. Unfortunately, the agreement is poorly worded and so the legal situation is murky. This restriction only prohibits attendees themselves from commercially using imagery taken at Burning Man. Since the agreement is only between Burning Man and the attendee, if taken literally, it cannot really be construed as applying to anyone else. There is a reason that lawyers use lots of verbiage in contracts: so that the status of situations like this are never left vague. If I were them, I would have made it say something like "Attendees shall not themselves use, cause to be used, or allow to be used any imagery taken at Burning Man for any commercial purpose." This would have made clear what they have left vague. If this ever were to go to court, I think the fact that the agreement did not say that would put Burning Man at a serious legal disadvantage. Furthermore, there is a question of whether or not a clause limiting the use of photos in this way would be legally enforceable. In my opinion (and IANAL), Burning Man would lose a case if they tried to sue an attendee who released photos taken at Burning Man under the GFDL.

Now that this has been brought to their attention, I would expect (and hope) next year to see the agreement spell out this restriction more clearly, so that people can make more informed decisions about whether to agree to the contract. However, the question of whether or not such a restriction is legally enforceable remains open. Nohat 09:35, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, just to clarify: the images are owned by the original copyright holder who took them while attending the Burning Man event; however, attendees technically agreed to not release photos for commercial use without permission of the Burning Man organization's media team. The biggest question is, are we (that is Misplaced Pages, as I won't be submitting my own images in violation of this) or should we be bound by this restriction?

IMHO I would like to see us abide by the restriction because it shows Misplaced Pages is a good citizen, but I recognize it might set a very bad precedent.

The second, smaller question is, is it fair to represent the GFDL as potentially protecting against use of images taken at Burning Man in corporate advertisements? This seems to be the major concern of the Burning Man media team, but in my reading of the GFDL if, for example, Coca-Cola were to use an image of Burning Man which had been placed into the GFDL in one of their commercials, they would also have to release the commercial itself into the GFDL. In addition, my understanding is Coca-Cola would also have to somehow either include the entire text of the GFDL in their ads or link to Misplaced Pages's copy of the GFDL in their ad? Kit 07:56, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I am the copyright holder of one of the images in question; Image:Neonman.jpg, which had been released under the GFDL. Can I now revoke that somehow and retro-license it under, say, FairUseAndPermission or somesuch? - Ali-oops 08:49, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

If you can't relicense for some reason, as the copyright holder you can license another copy of your image in any way you wish. You can make copies from your original and you can do whatever you want with them. The GFDL only applies to the one version to which the GFDL is attached. (SEWilco 13:32, 27 October 2005 (UTC))

I should point out that "any way you wish" depends upon your wishes, which are affected by your limitations. If you're under a contract that you have to pay (or be paid by) someone $100 whenever you make a copy then this will affect your decisions. (SEWilco 13:44, 27 October 2005 (UTC))

Whilst you can't "relicense" images, what this discussion has shown is that you weren't legally entitled to release it under the GFDL in the first place, so that "license" is meaningless... does that make sense? Tagging it FU - not FUAP, since as we've seen you're not controlling all relevant rights - might be a useful solution in the interim, if you do feel it is fair use in that context. Shimgray | talk | 13:17, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

We don't know the photograph's background. Maybe it was taken through a telescope from outside the area. Maybe the photographer got in without having to agree to anything. Is there a WikiResearch service? But if Misplaced Pages is not party to an agreement then why is this an issue? Anyone can scribble something, but that does not require everyone to obey it. (SEWilco 13:32, 27 October 2005 (UTC))

People with such photographs might want to consider licensing them with {{Limited Use}}. This permits reuse, including for commercial purposes, but only in connection with a proper encyclopedic article about the subject or in which the subject is referenced. There is also {{Limited Use-person}} for pictures of individual people. That might avoid the problems that the Burning Man agreement was intended to deal with. Whether this would adaquetely protect such a photographer is a legal question, and IANAL, and i haven't even seen the text of the Burning Man photo agreement so i have no useful opnion. DES 15:46, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Images and video which are reproductions of an event or performance (especially one occurring on private property) are considered to be derivative works of that performance and hence require the copyright permission of the performers. Examples of this that are often defended are movies and sporting events. I can not just go into a movie theater, video tape the movie, and resell it. That is a clear violation of production company's copyright. Similarly, I can't take photos or video at a sporting event (e.g. a football game) and then go distribute those without the express permission of the authority managing the event (e.g. the NFL). The same rules apply to performance art (especially on private property) though an artist defending their rights in that case is more uncommon.

As a matter of law, if we knowingly allow to be violated the copyright of a third party, then the contributory infringement clause of US copyright law can apply. Which is to say that even though we are not parties to the agreement, if we redistribute content under terms we know to be invalid, then we could be culpable as well.

There are some gray areas here. For example, the copyright would nominally vest in the performers, and without some statement of assignment, it is not obvious that the Burning Man Group has the authority to dictate terms of use. (Maybe such an agreement is part of the permission to attend the event?) So, I would not be sure that Burning Man would win the legal dispute; however, for us there is a simpler solution that avoids the potential problem. In the context, there are very good grounds for fair use and since the only thing we are worried about is the non-commercial clause, no one would have to violate the terms of their agreement if we argue that fair use is our rationale for inclusion. Dragons flight 15:50, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

{{Limited Use}} seems perfect, except that it appears to be up for deletion and not in keeping with Misplaced Pages's principles, at least according to some. I was under the impression that {{Fair Use}} images are frequently subject to deletion -- am I mistaken on this? Would this not apply to Burning Man images? Kit 10:56, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

{{Fair Use}} images are subject to deletion when they do not qualify as fair use where they are used. Examples

• "Fair use" image that is not used in any article. There can not be any "fair use" if the image is not used.
• The image is missing essential information (typically, its source) so that a judgement on fair use can not be made.
• The image is only used in a context that is clearly not fair use (such as using an album cover with a picture of a dog to illustrate Dog where the album or artists are not under discussion).

So, there have been a number of deletions of "fair use" images where the tag was misused.

--Tabor 19:21, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Do you think images taken at Burning Man dealing with the event or related topics would qualify as fair use? Kit 19:57, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Plenty of major commercial publications have run pictures of Burning Man in articles about the event. How do they get around this? -- Jmabel | Talk 02:48, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Their photographers got permissioin from the Burning Man media team, who object to the images being entered into the GFDL because of the unlimited commercial use clause. i.e., if a picture appeared in Time Magazine the photographer got permission to publish the photos in that magazine, but agreed not to publish it elsewhere such as a stock photography service. The media team is concerned/objects to the way they would no longer control the future uses of images posted to Misplaced Pages, and how it could, they fear, eventually end up in an advertisement as a consequence. Kit 03:03, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Proposed change to removing personal attacks reference on WP:NPA

Please see Wikipedia_talk:No_personal_attacks#Proposed_edit_of_remedies_re_removal. -- SCZenz 17:44, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Proposed change to "No Original Research"

I proposed a change to Misplaced Pages:No Original Research to deal with photos taken and uploaded by Misplaced Pages editors. See the talk page section here. The gist is: It's OK and doesn't count as unallowed original research, since photos are generally illustrative and do not propose ideas. Thanks - Tempshill 19:05, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

When has it ever come up that a photo is unallowed original research? SchmuckyTheCat 19:41, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I'll not take the blame for this :), but I'll point you to a discussion where it has been brought up ... Misplaced Pages:Village pump (proposals)#Writing from personal experience. I've not read the specific proposal, but I think in principle it is ok to put it down as clarification, particularly in this day of tighter copyright vigilence around images. Courtland 20:12, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

It does seem like a no-brainer, but somehow in the current policy page it states that photographs count as original research. This (obvious) proposal clarifies that they aren't. Tempshill 15:35, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Not a fan of the infobox

Hi. I'm not a fan of the infobox. I've been creating articles on cities, the ones that were put up automatically in late 2002. The majority of them are the same as when they were first uploaded, but about one in four have some different info as well and I write that in manually. However! I'm not a fan of the infobox at all. I don't see it saving time anywhere, as you still have to write in each section as you would in a basic table, and moreover a lot of them are way too complex.

Check this out: this monster of an infobox (for me). What is this if defined call 1 business? If a web page exists, call 1 and then it gets added? This is way too complex for Misplaced Pages. Why not just add an extra line to a table if you need it? I keep all the tables from the original article if I can see the code and simply cut and paste it over, but not this. Plus, I heard that our Misplaced Pages (Ido) doesn't even have some of the software needed for some of the functions - that's what I was told when I asked a question on the helpdesk. Does anyone agree that this is too complex? I don't see an infobox saving anyone any time, least of all me. Unless I am missing something really obvious that would fix everything and make the infobox a marvel of simplicity, but somehow I doubt it. mithridates

On your "monster", US_City_infobox, there should be Usage information on Template talk:US City infobox. (SEWilco 04:07, 28 October 2005 (UTC))

Well thank you for that, but that's exactly the point. People have been going willy-nilly about the talk page discussing how it works when in my opinion we should just have a source code that can be cut and pasted. Don't forget that there seem to be a few dozen people working on that one infobox, but most languages don't have that luxury. I'm sure I'll cave in a bit and make a box for us that works but I love it when the source code is right on the page and I only have to change the language itself. Mithridates 08:58, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Uniformity across languages

• Uniformity across languages. A Misplaced Pages English-language policy proposal for the naming of persons and events uniformly across foreign languages. HanumanDass 03:52, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Question about consensus and disambiguation

Say there is an article title, and

• Over 90% of the general public (outside wikipedia) interpret it to mean subject A
• but over 90% of the academic community, from all sides of bias concerning the general subject, interpret it to be extremely ambiguous, equally being able to refer to subject B, due to reasons C.

What should the article contain?

• Only subject A, very briefly mentioning subject B, and reasons C (i.e. only one or two sentences in a very long article on subject A)
• Subjects A and B in equal measure, with reason C explained
• A disambiguation page between subject A and subject B
• A summary article summarising subjects A, and B, with seperate main articles

This concerns talk:Ten Commandments, but my question is asking what the general principle is in Misplaced Pages when this sort of issue arises? --francis 21:50, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Well the general rule seems to be "if there is a big consensus, like 90% of the general public interpret an article title the same way, make it an article, if less, make it a disambig page". If the general public and the academic community disagree, there seems to be no consensus and a disambig page would probably be better suited even though the public makes up 90%. What does "Ten Commandments" mean in the academic world, btw? Peter S. 02:11, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

That it is ambiguous, being a reference to both Ritual Decalogue (Exodus 34) as well as Ethical Decalogue (Exodus 20).

Amongst many others, these academics include

• Goethe
• Jewish Encyclopedia
• Encyclopaedia Biblica (editor: Rev. T. K. Cheyne, M.A., D.D., Oriel Professor of the Interpretation of Holy Scripture at Oxford University, a while ago)
• Martin Noth
• Richard Elliot Friedman (one of the most respected living biblical scholars)
• Israel Finkelstein

--francis 12:35, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

As this discussion pertains to Ten Commandments, I suggest remaining answers are collated there. JFW | T@lk 21:46, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

the problem of trivia sections

There's an unfortunately widespread tendency among editors to create, at the end of the article, a section entitled "Trivia" or "Miscellaneous facts" or somesuch, where they place a bulleted list of a few facts that they couldn't fit into the article anywhere else. There are two big problems with this:

1. This is a gawdawful way to write an encyclopedia article. I don't think anyone would dispute that well-structured paragraphs are far superior to random lists of facts.
2. They grow. When editors happen upon an article with one of these tumors, it's easier for them to add another item to the list than to integrate a fact into the existing structure of the article. People being lazy creatures, they often choose the former course of action. And so the section expands, and expands, and expands, until it's fully one quarter the length of the rest of the article's real content (excluding references, external links, cross-references, and suchlike): http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Amiga&oldid=26750909#Trivia is an egregious example, but it's far from unique.

It's relatively easy to nip this in the bud, when the list contains only a few items. When it has metastasized, as in the Amiga example above, fixing it becomes a herculean task: for every fact on the list, one has to check that it's accurate, check that it's not duplicating anything else, and find an appropriate place for it. This is not easy. If it isn't fixed, however, it not only makes the article look bad and read poorly, but actively contributes to its degradation, as editors add to the list rather than the structured prose above it.

So:

• Am I the only one who thinks this is a problem?
• If not, what can we do to discourage it? Policies and guidelines on this seem to be lacking, but for a bit at the end of Misplaced Pages:Guide to writing better articles.

I am inclined to think that removing such lists to the talk page, or a subpage thereof, is the best solution. The information is not lost or buried in the history; editors can, at their leisure, integrate the facts into the article properly; and the section is no longer actively causing damage. Would there be support for a Misplaced Pages:Trivia section guideline along these lines? —Charles P. (Mirv) 20:22, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

For the time being I made Misplaced Pages:Trivia section redirect to Misplaced Pages:Trivia (see below) - I suppose such suggestions can be taken up there (and/or on wikipedia talk:trivia of course). --Francis Schonken 09:13, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I would disagree. I think it helps keep a concise record of information regarding a given subject, especially in the case of media. In cases of something that spands several series, integration of such information would require more expansion in an already limited area (which tends to cause another article being created to accomodate the size). It is easier to go directly to a certain factoid rather than having to process the entire subject. However it depends on how well the information would be integrated into its respective topic as well. Ereinion 21:35, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I disagree as well. I tend to call those sections "Notes" because that's what they are: notes. Look at The Deadly Assassin for an example of an interesting, informative section that adds greatly to the article. Attack of the Cybermen is another interesting example, because the "Authorship" section was originally contained in the notes, but I merged it out so it wouldn't envolope it.--Sean Black | Talk 22:18, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Alright, so it can work well in articles on pop culture topics. But consider the trivia sections in these articles: . . .and on, and on, and on. Can one say the same about these? —Charles P. (Mirv) 00:32, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't really like these sections in the articles I work on. For example, take Jimmy Carter. That article contains:

Miscellaneous

   * On October 14, 1978 President Carter signed into law a bill that legalized the homebrewing of beer and wine.

That point is accurate, but it somehow really is fairly trivial, in comparision to other things going on at that time (hostages being held in Tehran, etc.). I don't really think it belongs in the main chronological part of the article, but I also don't like it the way it is. Morris 00:18, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

That's another problem; such sections become a magnet for stuff that is at best tangential to the subject of the article. In the example above, that fact is highly relevant to homebrewing (where it is mentioned) but really not very relevant to Jimmy Carter. (Often these tangential additions concern pop culture references to the subject of the article; Marduk is a particularly bad example of this. But that's another rant. . .) —Charles P. (Mirv) 00:47, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

No, I think you're right there. If you can't find a section to integrate the fact into, you should probably leave it out. And on Marduk- I think a "References in Popular Culture"section is useful, and it lets those of us into fictioncruft to have a presence, while not intruding on the "real-life" stuff. It's a good compromise.--Sean Black | Talk 02:27, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

There's trivia and trivia. While this is supposed to be a commonsense thing, some editors (usually anons) seem to have difficulty with this. I've had this on Golem and Metatron, two articles where the trivia section at some point was longer than the remainder of the article. Pop culture references are two-a-penny. In seventy years few people will remember The Simpsons. JFW | T@lk 03:03, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. The Simpsons is astoundingly popular, it's the longest running animated television series ever, and will be for some considerable time. The validity of including particular bits of trivia depends on their relevance. Is the work critically acclaimed? Does it have a large fanbase? Is there a significant ammount of material on Misplaced Pages about it? You can't remove all pop culture references, nor can you reference all of them. For example: Albert Einstein appears (briefly) in the Doctor Who serial Time and the Rani. I would expect this to be mentioned in Time and the Rani, maybe in List of Doctor Who historical characters, but not in Albert Einstein. Like I said, it's about a compromise between the crufty and the real.--Sean Black | Talk 04:05, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I recently revived wikipedia:trivia: that had been a separate (proposed?) guideline a long time ago, then it became for several months a redirect to wikipedia:importance (but that guideline is "proposed" for ages without coming to a conclusion). Then someone changed trivia to redirect to BJAODN. Then I revived it as a separate guideline proposal a few weeks ago, and this morning it got sorted in category:wikipedia notability criteria, a wikipedia guidelines subcategory.

Guidance on "trivia lists"/"trivia sections" can be found in wikipedia:trivia#Trivia policy. I don't know whether I did a good job of describing the present policy regarding trivia in that section (I can only say that during the week the revived trivia guideline proposal was on wikipedia:current surveys nobody commented on that section). So please have a check whether that section answers the present questions, and improve and/or suggest improvements on its talk page. --Francis Schonken 08:51, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Split en.wikipedia.org

It is really disturbing. Again and again yankee treat en(lish-language).wikipedia.org as US.wikipedia.org and remove anything that does not fit the lone gunman republican worldwiew. Especially sociology and related is impossible to improve, because social rights, egalitarian society and similar issues are always erased by american and blairist british vandals. Articles are maliciously misrepresented, e.g. editors make sure "social democracy" always appears described as an evil ideology fellow travelling with communism, when in fact it is a form of capitalist governance, which brought great prosperity and universal happiness with high quality of life for swveral european countries.

In general anything that does not appeal to money counting honest yankee is POV and gets deleted. European (rest-of-the-world) brains are so differently programmed from US brains that there can be no common experience or understanding between the two races, the anglo-saxon and l'homme. American way of thinking is very mechanical and legalistic (e.g. weapons ban in schools not OK due to interstate commerce) and always remains impossible to understand for europeans, who think what a jungle it must be where kids bring guns to schools! Americans always view themselves with the society as something useless or possibly evil, which they should tweak and exploit to serve their individual interests, while europeans think one's search for happiness can only be successful if it doesn't hurt but rather contribute to the common good. It looks like americans are first and foremost their own self-gods, who prey on whatever life offers them.

This is a recurring experience and repels many non-US people from contributing to the current en.wikipedia.org. I am sorry to say, but the solution to this problem is to make en.wikipedia.org split and create separete en-us.wikipedia.org and en-rest-of-the-world.wikipedia.org. Currently US based editors have numerical superiorty and are always vigilant to revert any of your un-eagle-ish additions, so what remains is a dubya-approved lecture book meant for the sunday school, rather than an encyclopedia. I may not stay here for long if this frustration remains. 213.178.102.147 14:32, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Maybe it's because of the kind of articles that I edit, but I don't think there are more Americans. Also, people complain at the slightest Americanisation, but if anything is Europeanised no one bats an eyelid. Also, articles are meant to be neutral, feel free to help! Martin 14:46, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

It sounds like you're frustrated about several specific articles. If you point out which ones, then people might be interested in checking them out for problems in the edit history. I disagree with several of your points above and it is of course silly to say that all Americans think there shouldn't be a weapons ban in schools. Tempshill 15:47, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

User:213.178.102.147, you might like to look at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countering systemic bias and the talk page with that article. Philip Baird Shearer 16:03, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm a British Wikipedian who's been editing a lot for 18 months and I don't recognise the portrait being painted by the questioner. But, yes, it would be useful if Martin could cite some examples. --bodnotbod 16:11, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

A side issue: U.S. federalism

BTW, as an American, I'd like to comment on a remark made in passing above: "weapons ban in schools not OK due to interstate commerce". Unlike, say, departments of France, U.S. states have (limited) sovereignty. The Interstate Commerce clause of the U.S. Constitution is one of the few bases on which the federal government may intervene in local matters. They tried to use it as the basis of a federal ban on weapons in schools. The courts, probably correctly, ruled that this was farther than the notion of "interstate commerce" could stretch, and that this was simply not a federal matter. Many, perhaps most, states and localities have laws against weapons in schools. The issue was simply that this was considered not to be a federal matter. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:00, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Apparently, requiring your judges to obey the law is a "lone gunman republican worldwiew", and probably Bodnotbod doesn't recognize the issues above because he's a "blairist british vandal". We gotta assume good faith here, but I don't think this policy page should be a soapbox for insulting countries or cultures. If you have specific frustrations, please do bring them up though! -- SCZenz 09:34, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

NOR policy update needed

I think that photos, which are intended to make a specific point, should not be uploaded to Misplaced Pages unless they have been previously published by a disinterested, reputable 3rd party.

Flikr.com, weblogs, partisan political web sites (dailykos, freerepublic, etc) and such are not acceptable, but commercial news organizations and commericial publishers and to a lesser extent, non-profits would be ok. There is simply too much opportunity out there to stage photos, for example:

Supporters of Candidate A take Candidate B's signs and make a big mess in a parking lot with them and leave also a lot of trash like water bottles and sandwich wrappers.... the Wiki caption for this reads, "trash left behind after local rally for B".

Clearly it's a staged photo intended to make a point. If the control parameter of "intended to make a point" is not enforced, the excuse regarding the above scenario would be "I found the trash & signs in the parking lot and merely snapped the photo". Such assertions could not be disproved, opening a pandora's box of scheming opporunities.

Rex071404 06:27, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

How does one define "intent" and "make a specific point"?

• Image:Crumbs saucer fork.jpg: Saucers are used for things other than holding cups.
• Image:Crumbs saucer fork.jpg: Dirty dishes exist.
• Image:Crumbs saucer fork.jpg: A fork.
• Image:Crumbs saucer fork.jpg: There is no spoon. (SEWilco 07:09, 31 October 2005 (UTC))

One does not need to "define intent". Rather one only needs to make clear that a photo can be not will be, but can be deemed an NOR violation if it's obvious the intent is to "make a specific point", see my hypothetical example (above) or this actual photo, which caused an actual edit dispute at John Kerry and which was a personally produced, primary source created by the Wikipedian who uploaded it.

• Image:Private support for JK election.jpg

You wouldn't deny that this particular photo is "intended to make a point" would you?

Here is another hypothetical: Around where I live, there are many Mennonite families, all of which (that I know of) have "Bible verse" signs in front of their homes. A safe photo to show as an example of one of those would be when there is a non-confrontational verse such as "Honor your father and your mother" (10 commandments, #5) displayed. However, a photo of a Mennonite family sign with the verse saying "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16) might not be. Or what about "I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes unto the Father except by means of me" (John.14:6)? This would clearly be "intended to make a point" and a very controversial one at that!

Rex071404 07:49, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Images don't make points by themselves. They only make points if they're put wrongly into articles. For example the "private support for JK election" really only illustrates that someone, somewhere supports John Kerry—if there were a problem, it would be where it was included in an article and how it was captioned. -- SCZenz 08:02, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

It's true that only when they are put into articles can they be objected to (on any basis). Even so, a photo with an explicit text or other loaded message which is intended to make a specific point and which was created by the Wikipedian who uploaded it, certainly is fraught with risk (see above). If the NOR policy is not made more expansive to address this point, more finagling can sneak in (see above). Rex071404 08:13, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Pictures illustrate articles, I don't think they prove their content except for what they explicitly show. Thus, if there was no reputable source that covered a particularly egregious trash-leaving at a rally, you couldn't cite it and therefore you couldn't put in a picture to illustrate it. Since the trash business only shows there was some trash lying around somewhere, without other citation it wouldn't be appropriate to put in any article except trash. Even if the picture showed it was at the site of the rally, it doesn't illustrate anything relevant about the rally without the citation. -- SCZenz 08:17, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

You miss the point, if loaded photos such as that are allowed to get uploaded/used by Wikipedians who create them, then an arms race of loaded photos can start. Poltical related pages are contentious enough without letting sneaky editors cheat to get biased/loaded/POV photos -which they created- into the articles. Read Talk:John Kerry and also the edit history for John Kerry to see how that photo was actually defended! Rex071404 08:24, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I think you may be missing my point, so I'll be clear. There's no problem with images being uploaded, because Misplaced Pages isn't an image repository; there's only NPOV problems with how they're used. If we did have some way to deleting "inherently POV" images, it would only move the debate from the argument about using the picture in the article to the argument at the image deletion. I fail to see how this would help anything. -- SCZenz 08:53, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

To clarify "there's no problem with images being uploaded," what I meant is that we don't gaurentee the quality of our images to anyone, we only try to gaurentee the quality of our articles. -- SCZenz 09:01, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't want problem images (of the type I refer to above) deleted. Rather, I want a clear NOR basis for objecting to them in articles. Rex071404 09:10, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I think you already have basis to object. I don't think pictures can be used to illustrate something they don't show clearly. And I don't think they ought to be used to illustrate something that isn't significant to the article and cited—but you will need consensus to decide what's significant to the article, and there's no way around that. -- SCZenz 09:24, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

The kind of general ban on Wikipedians' photos that Rex wants would clearly be wrong. There's no NOR problem unless the photo is offered to prove a point about which there's a good-faith dispute. No one is denying that Kerry had some supporters in Arizona or that some Mennonites quote the Bible. Such photos are merely illustrative. On the other hand, if an editor were to offer a photograph of a house displaying a sign that read, "All hail Satan, praise the Dark Lord," and wanted to label it as a photo of a typical Mennonite house, that would obviously be unacceptable. Among the actual examples Rex cites, though, I don't see a problem. A photo of a sign quoting John 14:6 doesn't make the point that Jesus is the only path to salvation; it makes the point that there's somebody who lives in a house and who believes that and who cares enough to put up a sign. Reporting an opinion is acceptable under NPOV. For a non-hypothetical example, this photo by a Wikipedian shows a stained-glass window in which Jesus is depicted with a halo. The photo doesn't assert that Jesus is divine, but only that the monks at Buckfast Abbey believe he is. JamesMLane 12:56, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Your example with "stained glass" has no text on a sign, which is part and parcel of my concern. As for John 14:6, there are many editors on this wiki who 100% reject that message and would be offended at it. Original research photographs must be innocuous and one which did this (see next), would not be:

Supporters of Candidate A take Candidate B's signs and make a big mess in a parking lot with them and leave also a lot of trash like water bottles and sandwich wrappers.... the Wiki caption for this reads, "trash left behind after local rally for B".

Allowing editors to argue viewpoints via the proof of photos which they themselves supply, is indeed unacceptable.

Rex071404 13:44, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Y'all are trying to create a new policy where one isn't needed. All of this falls under Misplaced Pages:Verifiability. If a credible source hasn't identified or reported on the subject of the photograph, then any caption beyond "This is a pile of trash someone took a picture of" is unverifiable. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:46, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not a Christian, but I'm not even slightly offended by Christians believing in John 14:6. They're entitled to their point of view. So, if I see Mennonites quoting the bible, I go "Yep, they're Christians, and they like to put up quotes from the bible," which is what the picture was supposed to illustrate, yes? I also fail to see an important difference between images containing text and those that don't. Symbols can "make points" too, and you seem to think for some reason that text in an image "makes the point" that the text is true. -- SCZenz 17:42, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

What about the example of the staged candidate A & B? Rex071404 22:31, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Documenting an alleged trash-leaving without a reputable source having mentioned it would be inappropriate, and I think you can make a solid argument that a picture someone took doesn't count. Also, WP:AGF and common sense both imply that Wikipedians have better things to do than staging pictures to discredit politicians they agree with. -- SCZenz 07:12, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Image requests

Hi I'm passing on a request from the Talk:John Prescott page. Is there anywhere on WP to post image requests? as the above page, & a few others, need pictures. Thanks AllanHainey 13:17, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Try Misplaced Pages:Requested pictures. -Splash 15:13, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Entries on Template:In the News

After User:Silsor removed the entry on ITN about "President George W. Bush nominates Samuel A. Alito, Jr to the United States Supreme Court"., we both got into a discussion about the quote on Misplaced Pages:In the news section on the Main Page that says "It should be a story of an international importance, or at least interest."

My question: is there any sort of good way one can determine if a news story qualifies for that criteria so one can add it to ITN, or remove an entry if it does not fit? Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 17:59, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Tangent for a moment: personally, I do not like that portion of the criteria, as I find articles that are not of international significance quite interesting. It is usually what isn't coming out of every major news outlet that I find most interesting. In other words, give more love to the obscure articles from small/often ignored countries.

As for your question, I think the unofficial method that seems to be used by most people is how high the article ranks on http://www.bbcnews.com or Google News. As for making those "official" qualifiers... meh. --tomf688 04:18, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Use of subpage for extensive references

On the Jehovah's Witnesses-related pages, there are regular arguments over exactly what JWs believe. Each party provides long lists of quotes on the talk page, which soon get archived and forgotten.

The Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Jehovah's Witnesses is working on redoing the pages to include references for all claims about their beliefs, but there are often claims of out-of-context quoting and contradictory references. (JW publications often do this.) Nearly every statement will need a reference as these are highly disputed pages, and this will lead to a very large references section.

It would save a lot of time and space if a subpage could be used to quote the references and their contexts. I know subpages aren't used for this normally, but I think this would be a useful exception. --K. AKA Konrad West TALK 02:31, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

You might want to bring this up on Misplaced Pages talk:Cite sources.--Sean Black | Talk 04:30, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Okay thanks! --K. AKA Konrad West TALK 05:06, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Is Arbitration enforced?

Are Arbitration decisions enforced? In Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Climate change dispute#Remedies are several remedies, but the corresponding Enforcement section does not list any actions. Was nobody banned, and no actions taken? (SEWilco 07:21, 1 November 2005 (UTC))

Remote use of content

I am somewhat confused about the policies and rights concerning the remote use of Misplaced Pages content. What I am specifically interested in is whether Misplaced Pages allows one to dynamically use (or "remote load") articles, or parts of some, on one's own web site.

To give a more concrete (albeit totally hypothetical) example: Say, one has a web site that publishes news related to American and British jazz charts. Now, the website would have a database that includes the different artists and a record of their chart positions. This database would be used to generate individual artist pages so that a visitors could in one view see, for example, how artist X's albums have charted over the years. Yet, it would be nice to have a biographical introduction to the artist as well. The question then is, could one dynamically use, for example, the first paragraph of a related Misplaced Pages article (which usually gives an overview) on one's own page, of course with the relevant acknowledgements about the source of the content?

The use of Misplaced Pages material appears to be allowed under the GNU Free Documentation Licence (http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Contact_us#Copyright_issues). However, remote loading appears to be prohibited (http://en.wikipedia.org/WP:FORK#Remote_loading). Yet, I am not totally sure if a "mirror site" in this context also means a web site that remote-loads only a relatively small part of the whole Misplaced Pages? This is especially unclear to me as Misplaced Pages in fact offers, even seems to encourage, a way to remote-load data from Misplaced Pages (http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia%3ADownload#Why_not_just_retrieve_data_from_wikipedia.org_at_runtime?).

It then seems that while the use of content is allowed, using it dynamically (i.e. remote-loading it) is not? Does this apply even when the content used is only a very small part of the whole of Misplaced Pages?

Of course, restricting remote-loading is understandable considering the potential extra traffic generated for Misplaced Pages servers (especially web crawlers are mentioned in the "Remote Loading" text quoted above). However, if this is the only reason why remote-loading is prohibited, would the following then be allowed: Instead of loading the page content from Misplaced Pages every time a user visits one's website, the content would be loaded from a mirror-like file on one's own web site. This file, then, would be kept relatively up-to-date by rewriting it once a week or so by remote-loading the Misplaced Pages article. This would not generate more than one extra hit per week per article and would hence probably not significantly strain the Misplaced Pages servers.

I wonder what the views on all of this are?

--Vili 11:10, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

The restrictions are entirely based on reducing load on the servers. For you to update a cache weekly would be perfectly acceptable, so long as you follow the GFDL. Cheers, ] 19:35, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

WP:WEB

This somewhat moribund discusion could use broader community input. Currently has strong focus on webcomics, but this is an area where we could clearly use a guideline re: WP:MUSIC.
brenneman 06:34, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

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