Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 09:40, 21 February 2009

A request has been made for this article to be peer reviewed to receive a broader perspective on how it may be improved. Please make any edits you see fit to improve the quality of this article.

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

There have been attempts to recruit editors of specific viewpoints to this article, in a manner that does not comply with Misplaced Pages's policies. Editors are encouraged to use neutral mechanisms for requesting outside input (e.g. a "request for comment", a third opinion or other noticeboard post, or neutral criteria: "pinging all editors who have edited this page in the last 48 hours"). If someone has asked you to provide your opinion here, examine the arguments, not the editors who have made them. Reminder: disputes are resolved by consensus, not by majority vote.

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to complementary and alternative medicine, which has been designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Archives and other information

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Homeopathy article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65Auto-archiving period: 30 days  Homeopathy has been listed as one of the Natural sciences good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. Article milestones Date Process Result September 14, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed September 27, 2007 Good article nominee Listed October 8, 2007 Good article reassessment Delisted October 13, 2007 Good article reassessment Delisted October 19, 2007 Peer review Reviewed October 25, 2007 Good article nominee Listed February 9, 2008 Peer review Reviewed Current status: Good article This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Skepticism High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science, pseudoscience, pseudohistory and skepticism related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SkepticismWikipedia:WikiProject SkepticismTemplate:WikiProject SkepticismSkepticism High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Homeopathy (inactive) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Homeopathy, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.HomeopathyWikipedia:WikiProject HomeopathyTemplate:WikiProject HomeopathyHomeopathy Pharmacology This article is within the scope of WikiProject Pharmacology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Pharmacology on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PharmacologyWikipedia:WikiProject PharmacologyTemplate:WikiProject Pharmacologypharmacology ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Alternative medicine This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative medicine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Alternative medicine related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Alternative medicineWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative medicineTemplate:WikiProject Alternative medicineAlternative medicine Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Alternative views High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative views, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of significant alternative views in every field, from the sciences to the humanities. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion.Alternative viewsWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative viewsTemplate:WikiProject Alternative viewsAlternative views High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Medicine Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Medicine, which recommends that medicine-related articles follow the Manual of Style for medicine-related articles and that biomedical information in any article use high-quality medical sources. Please visit the project page for details or ask questions at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine.MedicineWikipedia:WikiProject MedicineTemplate:WikiProject Medicinemedicine Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 61, 62, 63, 64, 65

This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

Peer review status

I just now revisited my peer review of the lead of about six days ago. Around 25% of the review has been addressed. That's a good start, for an article that is obviously as contentious as this one. More please! (It will help encourage future reviewers. :-) Eubulides (talk) 23:00, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of that peer review. Very well done! It needs to be placed here and worked on, IF we can get some time to do useful things, instead of being diverted by disruptive elements and socks. -- Fyslee (talk) 00:15, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

It's easy enough to include from here; please see below. Eubulides (talk) 00:34, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, transclusion works nice, but it's not as easy for all editors, especially newbies, to work on it right here. This talk page is the official homeopathy talk page with far more viewers than the peer review page. I was actually thinking that it should be copied as a whole, rather than a transclusion. Then everyone could work on it here. -- Fyslee (talk) 16:51, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Homeopathy

Previous peer review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch peer review

• A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for February 2009.

This peer review discussion has been closed.
Homeopathy has been a controverial subject, but has finally reached a reasonably stable, high-quality form. I think it's time that we begin - finally - to move it towards FA. Please review it in that light, with advice on moving forwards.

Thanks, Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 23:41, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Note: Because of its length, this peer review is not transcluded. It is still open and located at Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Homeopathy/archive3.

Original synthesis and missing sources

There are at least two instances of original synthesis in the lead.

The first sentence of the third paragraph states: Homeopathic remedies are generally considered safe, with rare exceptions. Two references are cited in support of this statement, but neither addresses the first clause. This is completely non-controversial, but should be cited regardless. Neither do these references address the issue of whether these particular instances of dangerous substances remaining after dilution are the most notable. It is likely that a quality reference treating safety could replace these.

The final sentence of the third paragraph, as Eubulides notes above, treats worldwide prevalence while only citing specific sources. Use in Germany is probably a better special case, anyway. - Eldereft (cont.) 06:58, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

It looks like worldwide prevalence could be addressed by this WHO book. Does anybody have access? - Eldereft (cont.) 07:35, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Google Books has that book, in Full view format (you can read all of it for free). Eubulides (talk) 08:36, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

On the matter of safety, it's a frequently made claim, but it generally relies on the same argument that homoeopaths reject when it is brought up as a reason to suppose that the remedies have no effects at all: that the remedies are so dilute that they can't produce side-effects. There may not be much reliable literature on this point. Brunton (talk) 12:43, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh, so they do - link. Not sure how I was getting only the front and back covers, thanks. - Eldereft (cont.) 17:06, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Because there is a map volume and a text volume, the latter of which does not display. meh. - Eldereft (cont.) 17:35, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Nonlocality

The section #Research on medical effectiveness currently mentions without defining local vs. nonlocal models, cited to a paper in Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. If this viewpoint is relevant, it should be explained and expanded. If not, it should be removed. - Eldereft (cont.) 08:31, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

It seems to be a reference to Quantum mysticism (on a quick read). I say junk it for now, even if the "effect" is "nonlocal" the correlations could be tested for - just like in QM. However, it isn't, so it can be tested directly, and this adds nothing. Verbal chat 08:45, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

It generally invokes "weak quantum theory". I've added a reference for this. See also Lionel Milgrom's work on the same topic, for example this paper, and the associated "eletters" from Daniel Chrastina. Milgrom has published somewhere over a dozen papers on this topic so far. Brunton (talk) 12:33, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Wow, that sure is a ... novel ... interpretation of quantum mechanics. Is patient-practitioner-remedy entanglement mentioned in any of our nice general reviews of the field? If we keep this, it really needs to be made clear that this is not actually based in physics. - Eldereft (cont.) 19:14, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps homeopaths consulting rooms are for some reason non-local boxes (these are more powerful than QM entanglement, involving polytopes and stuff - crazy). Milgroms stuff is, I believe, fringe (or at least minority) amongst homeopaths and shouldn't be given much weight. Verbal chat 22:28, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

If you want to see how homoeopaths view QM, you could always try "Wiki4CAM". Brunton (talk) 23:31, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Ethical and safety issues - timeline on GMC case

In the GMC case mentioned, the timeline is a little off. According to the GMC fitness to practise panel's decision The quotation given ("She just cannot take ANY drugs – I have suggested some homeopathic remedies") was 8 days, not two months, before the patient's death. The earliest comment about medications mentioned in the decision was on 22nd June, with the patient dying 1st September. I'm not sure where the "four months" in the article comes from, it doesn't seem to be mentioned in the sources cited. I'm hesitating to change this only because 1) it involves what is effectively biographical material about a living person (i.e. the doctor) and 2) the FTP panel's decision is no longer on the GMC site - is web.archive.org considered a reliable source for pages it's archived? Brunton (talk) 13:00, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Web.archive.org normally is, provided the sites the things come from are themselves reliable. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 13:57, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks - I'll make an edit. Brunton (talk) 14:06, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Can someone give me a tip about how to cite a page from the GMC retrieved from web.archive please? Brunton (talk) 14:09, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Just like any other ref, only using the URL of web.archive. There is no requirement for a URL to be from the original source. -- Fyslee (talk) 16:34, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I've added some more details from the original FTP panel decision to set out the timeline. Brunton (talk) 19:16, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Lead: "the principle that ultradilute preparations..."

From the current lead: "the principle that ultradilute preparations treat the same symptoms caused by ingestion of the undiluted substance". The principle is simply that "like cures like". Hahnemann's original observation was that material doses of cincona bark, which could treat malaria, produced malaria-like symptoms in healthy volunteers. He introduced the dilutions because material doses of substances that produce symptoms had a nasty tendency to make the patient worse. Since the mid 19th century, although the remedies used are pretty much always dilute or ultradilute, the "provings" (through which homoeopaths attempt to identify out what symptoms a remedy will produce, and therefore what it should be used to treat) are pretty much always carried out using the potentised remedies, not the undiluted substance. This needs to be changed in order to not give the wrong impression, from whatever point of view one looks at it (the mention of ultradilute preparations is often cited by proponents of homoeopathy as the sole or major argument against homoeopathy, so either way it's something of a strawman). Brunton (talk) 14:02, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Potentization and similia similibus curentur should both be mentioned at the outset (ed. as concepts - specialized terminology belongs in the body), as they are the defining principles of homeopathy. I would be amenable to wording placing "like cures like" first or with greater emphasis as long as some semblance of simplicity and clarity is retained. Please make a concrete proposal for discussion here? - Eldereft (cont.) 17:18, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I would suggest amending the first sentence to "Homeopathy is a form of alternative medicine based on the principle of the law of similars, which states that disease can be treated using remedies that would cause the symptoms of the disease in a healthy subject."

Perhaps as a second sentence (not so sure about this one - don't quite like how it reads): "Homeopathy characteristically uses remedies "potentized" by repeated dilution and succussion, which are often so dilute as to contain none of the starting material." Brunton (talk) 19:09, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I really don't think it helpful to begin the article with a lengthy section of unexplained jargon, some of it in Latin. "Potentised", "succussion", "similia similibus curentur", and "law of similars" should not appear without being explained. As explaining them is both complicated, and simpler words exist - "strengthened by dilution", "shaking" "like cures like", and "like cures like", respectively - I see no need to use homeopathic jargon until the main body of the article. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 19:42, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

OK, how about:

"Homeopathy is a form of alternative medicine based on the principle that disease can be treated using remedies that would cause the symptoms of the disease in a healthy subject. It characteristically uses remedies prepared by repeated dilution and shaking, which are often so dilute as to contain none of the starting material." Brunton (talk) 22:10, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Forget that second sentence: I should have paid more attention to what is already there! Brunton (talk) 22:14, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Agree with Shoemaker's Holiday re: jargon (amended comment above).

I think Brunton's proposal is workable, though stylistically loose (concision and clarity matter for FA). How about: Homeopathy is a form of alternative medicine using preparations whose effects on healthy persons correspond to those of a disorder. Remedies are prepared by repeated dilution and shaking, and often contain none of the starting material. - Eldereft (cont.) 22:23, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Brunton has the right of it - striking second sentence in favor of third sentence of current lead. - Eldereft (cont.) 22:27, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it should imply that the preparations actually produce the effects in healthy people: there have been a number of properly double-blinded "provings" of remedies at 30C (the potency recommended by Hahnemann for provings) which have found no actual effect. See for example Brien S, Lewith G, Bryant T. Ultramolecular homeopathy has no observable clinical effects. A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled proving trial of Belladonna 30C. In view of the available evidence, surely it should say that it is "based on the principle that..." rather than that it actually does it. Brunton (talk) 23:18, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

"...whose effects on healthy persons superficially (or "have some resemblance to the symptoms of a disorder") correspond to those of a disorder." would be more accurate. Just because a substance can produce (for example) a fever, doesn't mean it produces all the other symptoms of a certain disease in which fever is just one of the symptoms. Poor Hahnemann got off on the wrong foot because he (unknowingly) was allergic to cinchona bark and it caused a reaction. Starting with that already corrupted starting point, he created a whole system. -- Fyslee (talk) 23:41, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not certain about using "superficially" or "have some resemblance to the symptoms of a disorder". Homoeopaths claim that they attempt to precisely match all the individual patient's symptoms (even down to things like food preferences). Brunton (talk) 23:49, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Dantas (2007) is fairly harsh on the replicability of the provings themselves, too. I am going to defer to other opinions on this for now - I agree that we must describe the system without assuming it. We could insert based on the principle of between "medicine" and "using" in my proposal above, but that reads kinda meh. - Eldereft (cont.) 23:57, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Brunton, they may "try" to do it, but it will still be a superficial resemblance, and to the best of my knowledge I've never seen evidence that they actually do what they claim. The only way to really get all the symptoms would be to give the patient the real illness, not by making a proving. Lab tests won't show the same results as with the real illness, so any similarity will only be a resemblance. We are, after all, dealing with an illusion. -- Fyslee (talk) 02:42, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, and that's why I don't like the wording "...preparations whose effects on healthy persons correspond to those of a disorder". The preparations appear to have no real effects, so we need to avoid implying that they do. The current first sentence of the lead is not actually true and therefore needs to be changed, in my opinion, so since we have some sort of consensus as to the meaning we're aiming at, if not the precise wording, I am going to change it to "...based on the principle that disease can be treated using medicines that would cause the symptoms of the disease in a healthy subject." I think this states reasonably clearly the basic principle of homoeopathy, and can't really see how to make it any more concise. If anyone can edit it down further without losing any of the meaning... Brunton (talk) 08:30, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

This change is for the worse. The lead sentence should make it clear that homeopathy treats people with heavily diluted preparations. The current lead doesn't do that: it puts off the dilution until near the end of the lead paragraph, which is way too late. The lead sentence should mention heavy dilution. Omitting dilution from the lead sentence of Homeopathy would be like not mentioning the spine in the lead sentence of Chiropractic. Eubulides (talk) 08:44, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

We need to describe what homoeopathy is in the first sentence. The basic principle is "like cures like". Extreme dilutions are not exclusively used. Perhaps we could swap the order of the second and third sentences? Brunton (talk) 09:34, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Extreme dilutions may not be exclusively used, but they are at the core of homeopathy in practice and must be in the first sentence. The situation with Chiropractic is similar: chiropractors do not exclusivly treat the spine, and the traditional chiropractic philosophy is about "Innate Intelligence" rather than the spine per se; but as a practical matter the spine is at the core of chiropractic, just as extreme dilutions are at the center of homeopathy. Core characteristics should be in the lead sentence. Eubulides (talk) 09:47, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that the dilutions can be included in the first sentence without making it unwieldy. Certainly the word "ultradilute" that was originally there has no place here (see comments about jargon above), and we need to be careful to give a concise view of what homoeopathy actually is rather than the "sceptic's version". I'm swapping the sentence order - how does it read now? Brunton (talk) 10:04, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Better, but it'd be better still to mention dilutions in the first sentence. It need not be unwieldy. Here's a first cut:

"Homeopathy is a form of alternative medicine that treats a disease with medicines that would ordinarily cause the disease's symptoms, heavily diluted under the theory that this makes the medicines stronger as a cure."

This lead sentence captures the two central axioms of homeopathy; the current lead sentence captures just the first one. Also, this lead sentence captures the notion that higher dilutions are supposed to make the medicines more powerful, a central notion of homeopathy that is entirely absent from the lead right now (!). Eubulides (talk) 10:31, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

If we can insert a qualification such as "often" or "usually" before "heavily diluted", this sentence will get strong support from me. Otherwise – a little white lie in the leading sentence is normally OK, but then the rest of the article (and, ideally, the lede) needs to contribute to an understanding that the situation is slightly more complicated. --Hans Adler (talk) 11:55, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

The first sentence is still not quite right, certainly as homoeopathy is currently practised. The idea that "provings" are carried out using material doses is often suggested by homoeopaths (see the comments about allium cepa here, for example) as it makes the whole thing appear perhaps slightly less implausible, but this is not the case - provings are carried out using potentised remedies. The evidence from double-blind provings strongly suggests that the medicines do not ordinarily cause any symptoms. We should not be including this myth in the lead. Brunton (talk) 12:08, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Excellent point. I just verified that according to Hahnemann (Organon, 6th ed., §128) provings are done with 30X pills. It would be nice to also have a modern source saying that that's still how it's done. --Hans Adler (talk) 14:09, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

It's a little difficult to find anything definitive. All the provings I've found published on the internet (e.g.here) seem to use potentised remedies, but I'm having problems finding a reliable source that details how provings are carried out. Here's a description of proving from a book published in 2000, stating that "the homeopathic medicine or a placebo" is administered, and contrasting this with toxicology reports on drugs which it describes as "a toxic proving instead of a harmless homeopathic proving" (last two paragraphs of p. 215). There may be something better out there. Brunton (talk) 14:36, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I've found a better source for this, I think: Kayne, S. B. and Caldwell, I. M. (2006): Homeopathic pharmacy: theory and practice. 2nd Ed. Elsevier Health Sciences at p. 52: "While, in the beginning, Hahnemann used mainly mother tinctures and low potencies for homeopathic provings, he later switched to centesimal dilutions (30c), and many of his followers did the same. Most recent provings have been conducted with ultramolecular dilutions (>12c). It is highly unlikely that any original molecule is present in such medicines." Perhaps this should be included in the section on provings. Brunton (talk) 23:17, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Brilliant. My opinion on homeopaths' common sense has just dropped a bit further. This is how to debunk a topic, not by shouting or namecalling. --Hans Adler (talk) 08:50, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I've edited the start of the second paragraph of the "Provings" section to include this (and to split up what was becoming a rather unwieldy sentence) Brunton (talk) 22:08, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I tried to change Eubulides' proposed leading sentence to account for Brunton's objection. It wasn't easy, and I had to change the sentence structure completely.

"Homeopathy is a form of alternative medicine which is motivated by the two ideas of using medicine that would ordinarily cause the patient's symptoms and diluting it heavily to amplify the desired effect."

Brunton, I think you wanted to remove the similia similibus bit completely, but could you accept this as a compromise between brevity, homeopathy's self-concept and objective truth? --Hans Adler (talk) 02:11, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

That lead sentence works for me; thanks. Eubulides (talk) 09:55, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I find that acceptable - good work. It might need a comma after symptoms, and preparations might work better than medicine. - Eldereft (cont.) 14:24, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with "preparations". Personally I am not bothered by "medicines", but in the past some editors have been, and making the change should reduce the danger of drive-by reverts. I also have a vague feeling that there should be a comma, but at the same time I feel that it's potentially confusing because the preceding phrase is sufficiently long that you have to think (just a little bit) about whether it contains only one of the two ideas or both. I am happy either way. --Hans Adler (talk) 15:08, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Some interesting sources

Some of these might contain useful stuff for this article, but we need the original sources if possible:

• Where Does Homeopathy Fit in Pharmacy Practice? From: American Journal of Pharmaceutical Education | Date: January 1, 2007| Author: Johnson, Teela; Boon, Heather
• Homeopathy is worse than witchcraft - and the NHS must stop paying for it. From: The Daily Mail (London, England) | Date: May 1, 2007
• Is homeopathy really hogwash? From: The Spectator | Date: October 22, 2005| Author: Wakefield, Mary
• Is homeopathy a natural fit for practising GPs? From: The Scotsman | Date: December 18, 2006| Author: Lyndsay Moss
• Is homeopathy possible? From: The Journal of the Royal Society for the Promotion of Health | Date: September 1, 2006| Author: Milgrom, Lionel R
• Homeopathy makes no sense but science takes a look anyway From: The Boston Globe (Boston, MA) | Date: July 17, 1995| Author: Judy Foreman, Globe Staff
• The great homeopathy debate From: Press and Journal, The Aberdeen (UK) | Date: October 27, 2007

-- Fyslee (talk) 17:32, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I've found the Spectator piece, but I'm not sure how useful it is, as it's a comment piece, and one that contains some unchallenged statements that appear to be inaccurate (for example "In the Lancet trials, for instance, they gave the same remedy to each patient" - while this is a common claim from homoeopaths, Shang et al included trials of individualised homoeopathy if they fitted the criteria), and a serious rash of anecdotes. Brunton (talk) 17:55, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Full text of Johnson & Boon: Where Does Homeopathy Fit in Pharmacy Practice?

There's an abstract of the Milgrom article here; it seems to be pushing his appeal to quantum mechanics.

The rest look to be newspaper comment/lifestyle pieces. Again, not sure how useful these would be as sources. Brunton (talk) 18:07, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Some of them would be only useful to document opinions commonly held. Opinions aren't regulated by MEDRS and are often sourced from V & RS such as newspapers. Some may contain quotes of notable scientists and other persons, which could be used in other ways. -- Fyslee (talk) 18:38, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I'd throw out anything by the Daily Mail. That newspaper is known for manufacturing one controversy every day, with little concern as to whether they're right or wrong. I agree with the view expressed in the headline. But they are not something we should be using. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 22:09, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Generally I'd agree with you on that. In this case though, while for some reason the story carries a Mail reporter's byline, it appears to originate with Professor Michael Baum, so might be a useful source for mainstream medicine's attitudes. Brunton (talk) 23:23, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

It's a letter full of his unsupported (within the letter) opinion though. I don't think it would qualify as an RS for anything other then a "Media coverage of homeopathy section". I'm also quite confident that people will be able to find several people with a Doctor of Medicine who are speaking in favour of homeopathy. We can't hold up any single opinion as representative of mainstream medicine. If we want the opinion's of medical doctors we should go to peer reviewed medical journals. JamesStewart7 (talk) 13:55, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Quote box

from Greek ὅμοιος ("like") + πάθος ("suffering")

Is it just me, or is the pull-quote box (copied to the right) one of the least elegant and worst ways to handle entymology? Explanations of the entymology, translations, and the like are almost universaly handled inline within the lead, I see no reason to make this article an exception. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 19:18, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I think it depends on the article. Some etymologies (especially the Asian stuff) take up most of the first line and really break up the reading process. They are thus distractions and the box works well. If it's only a single word or two, then an inline solution probably is good enough. Just deal with it on a case by case basis. -- Fyslee (talk) 19:38, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Maybe it should start with the word Homeopathy, just to make it look nicer? Verbal chat 22:13, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I like having an etymologybox (obviously), but looking back now we do not state the alternate spellings of homeopathy - should those go there or as a parenthetical after the first word? - Eldereft (cont.) 22:31, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Good point. We should definitely mention alternate spellings, and those alternate spellings should also be used as redirects to this article (they probably are already). -- Fyslee (talk) 23:47, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Not to be a dick, but what we are discussing is etymology, not entomology. Bit of a difference. I agree that boxes, in general, should be avoided. As should vicious insects. Skinwalker (talk) 01:52, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Oops! Fixed my typo. That was a Freudian slip after seeing SH's. Now I'll let SH fix his. -- Fyslee (talk) 02:38, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Alternate spellings and suchlike should go in the box too, not in the main text (where they would detract from the lead sentence). While we're on the subject, the current etymology is too brief, and needs expanding; it doesn't transliterate the Greek into Latin letters, and this runs afoul of Misplaced Pages style gudelines. Eubulides (talk) 08:48, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Contradiction in History section

There is a seeming contradiction in the History section, Rise to popularity and early criticism subsection. In it the article claims there was relative success of homeopathy in the 18th century. However, if homeopathy was not even coined until 1807 and was not practiced until after Hahnemann concieved of it in the very end of the 18th century as described in the subsection Hahnemann's concept, how could homeopathy have enjoyed any success in the 18th century? I was going to change the 18th century reference to 19th century as an error, but saw the next section talked about criticism of homeopathy beginning in the early 19th century. I therefore am not sure if the error is in the dates of when homeopathy began to be practiced or in the reference to it becoming popular and relatively successful in the 18th century. Both cannot be accurate. The Seeker 4 Talk 16:46, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Fixed - changed to 19th. - Eldereft (cont.) 17:24, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Multiple papers in a single ref-tag

Current reference fifteen contains three papers, each of which is cited properly elsewhere. I fixed this here. Rather than sift through the last sixty edits, can someone just tell me why this odd, confusing, and misleading style is being used? - Eldereft (cont.) 17:12, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh well, just one of those things with collaborative editing, I suppose. Fixed again, so no worries. - Eldereft (cont.) 15:28, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

References

Please keep this section at the bottom. TO ADD A NEW SECTION, just click the EDIT link at the right and add the new section ABOVE this one. Then copy the heading into the edit summary box.

Lead

Instead of, 'Claims to the efficacy......', somewhere down where people can't read it immediately, I feel we should have it right in the beginning, 'Homeopathy is an ineffective alternative system of medicine.........'. This should be followed by the pseudoscience and quackery sentence. Misplaced Pages rules say we should have criticism in the Lead. I thought I'd discuss it before doing it.-NootherIDAvailable (talk) 09:40, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

• Requests for peer review
• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• Misplaced Pages good articles
• Natural sciences good articles
• Old requests for peer review
• All unassessed articles
• GA-Class Skepticism articles
• High-importance Skepticism articles
• WikiProject Skepticism articles
• WikiProject templates with unknown parameters
• Unassessed pharmacology articles
• Unknown-importance pharmacology articles
• WikiProject Pharmacology articles
• GA-Class Alternative medicine articles
• GA-Class Alternative views articles
• High-importance Alternative views articles
• WikiProject Alternative views articles
• GA-Class medicine articles
• Mid-importance medicine articles
• All WikiProject Medicine pages
• Peer review pages with semiautomated peer reviews