Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 09:02, 5 November 2005

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Closed and resubmitted for new debate; the current debate has turned into a partisan political argument which has grossly clouded the basic issue. Bearcat 09:02, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Alan Shefman

This afd nomination was incomplete. Listing now. —Crypticbot (operator) 04:17, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

• (The anon nominator's reasoning is "False information posted, Not notable, attempt to use as advertising for his company, attempt to use as political tool". —Cryptic (talk) 04:27, 30 October 2005 (UTC))

Delete not notable, false info. posted, no other vaughan councillor posted, involved in crimminal activity, speading propaganda, racist against some ethnic groups (see http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/world01/canad-school.htm ), never served as national director of b'nai brith he was employed by b'nai brith in a minor role but was fired, fired from Ontario human rights commission, asked to leave and then he resigned as school trustee — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.231.242.98 (talk • contribs)

• Speedy Keep (without prejudice against a legit AFD) - Anons who blank pages should not be able to nominate. The above cited story seems to actually give the person a little bump of notability. I think this AFD should be de-listed. After removal, if somebody else wishes to nominate them (based on them being merely a local politician), than I would respect that. --rob 11:42, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

• Speedy Keep Seems to be factually correct as far as I can see. Motivation for original Vfd seems to be due to an argument and not in good faith. , .--Alicejenny 11:54, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

• Delete if kept then update with fatual information. to Thivierr, I am new here, I originally understood by blanking the page was the process to delete it (my fault for this). This page was brought to my attention from the B'nai Brith about the false information about the National Director — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.231.242.98 (talk • contribs)
  • Misplaced Pages is awfully forgiving of one-time mistakes. We generally don't call the first mistake vandalism. But you did it repeatedly, and you put a personal put-down as "fact" in the article itself. Then, you proceeded to remove a link to the page. Please realize repeated acts like this are not ok. Normally, local politicians like this don't get articles, but frankly, your convincing me this person seems to be notable, as he's gotten a lot of attention. --rob 12:12, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
  • The nominator is asked to please read User talk:64.231.242.98. --rob 12:26, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Thivierr/rob, As I mentioned I am new here the changes I made I understood was the proper process. Misplaced Pages and yourself can do what ever you feel is correct but this page wit the incorrect info. about the National Director of b'nai brith was brought to my attention from the B'nai Brith as I am a member of b'nai brith Canada. Your other comment about the other change to another article was base on facts in local newspapers she admitted to this. It in not my oppinion. I beleive this Shefman article is posted for nothing more than to pursue his own politcal agenda — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.231.242.98 (talk • contribs)

• The other article you are referring to is Susan_Kadis. In your first edit you changed the text "She" to "He". These types of changes are completely unacceptable. Also, please realize, its fairly easy to monitor these changes, and undo all of them, and take action to prevent further ones. --rob 12:40, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Rob you were referring to the "reason why she left change" not the "he" "She" change. The "he" "she" change was a mistake, I corrected it. look in the history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.231.242.98 (talk • contribs)

Yep, it was a mistake. Yes, you did correct it. However, it taints your future edits in the eyes of others (me at least). Please, don't be surprised if subsequent edits are given a greater deal of scrutiny as a result. Also, in the "reason why she left", you put your *opinion" that her replacement was unqualified (with no citation of who said it). We go by a neutral point of view at wikipedia, not bias. You're not welcome to push a one-sided opinion in any article. When you stick the facts, and avoid your own personal opinion, you'll find your contributions welcomed. --rob 12:54, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Rob the change "reason why she left" was NOT my opinion I put the opinion based on local newspapers articles (they don't seem to be on the internet or I would give you link to them) Personally it doesn't matter to me, I just think the correct info. should be posted without a political agenda. Infact I like your idea of "future edits .... greater deal of scrutiny" I think all edits should need some kind of process to prove it is fact. I understand that this may be difficult to enforce. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.231.242.98 (talk • contribs)

First, getting an account, would be good, as it provides a better way for people to communicate with you. As it stands, any page you use, is shared with others (who probably don't care for the conversation). Second, you can still cite a source if it's a newspaper. Check out various other articles which do this, and take a look at WP:CITE and WP:V. Essentially, information such as publication name, date, page author, etc.. must be provided (especially if there's no url). If it's a quote, you put in quotation marks. You must make clear its an opinion *not* state it as fact. You must also show other opinions, including the subject of the article's opinion (which is probably the replacement was qualified). Around here, if something's unverifiable, than it's as bad as being false. As for enforcement, verifiability is easy to enforce. We just delete and revert unverifiable claims, as I did with the Susan_Kadis. I don't have to prove a claim is false to remove it, just that it's unverifiable, which is much easier. --rob 13:18, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

• Keep I feel the man is legit based on what I could find in a couple searches. But the article does need a clean-up. BTW, This Wikipedian has a problem with non-registered users who Nom articles for VFD. Account names help to provide a Wiki-trail of sorts and is good courtesy. Stu 20:19, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
• Keep and expand. City council members are notable for Misplaced Pages purposes, per ample precedent. MCB 01:14, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

• Keep I actually created the original of this article and was surprised to see it up for deletion. He was the 'National Director of the B'nai Brith League for Human Rights' If you'd like, call them up and ask them, but it is true. Second, even beyond his political career which is noteable in the community (fought for accountability and transperancy on a corrupt school board, recycling advocate at city council) and many expect him to challenge Mario Racco for the Provincial Liberal nomination in Thornhill. He was also a 'special advisor to the prosecutor' in the Jim Keegstra Hate Crimes trial in Alberta and is listed on Ernst Zundel's website as one of his detractors. Furthermore, he was never fired from B'nai Brith and was absolutely not asked to leave the School Board. Is he as noteable as Elinor Caplan or Paul Martin? No. But is he noteable enough for his own wikipedia entry? Absolutely. Remember, we are trying to build a massive resource here, with information for everyone. Edit: If you ask me, all of the Vaughan Councillors should have their own wiki entrys. pm_shef 05:10, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Delete The above is more false information posted from Alan Shefman's son. It's not a surpirse that all this info. came directly from the Shefman's. Delete Attempting to use this as a political tool, attempt to use to futher his so called human rights company, not notable (served only a few monthes as councillor) (no other Vaughan councillor posted that served for many more years.) If kept then info. should be confirmed with a reliable source (not confirmed with more false info. posted from the shefman's on other websites) and a more indepth description about his crimminal activity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.231.242.98 (talk • contribs)

• Keep and Expand Criminal Activity? Would you care to explain to us what criminal activity? Yes I'm his son, how does that matter? In fact, it makes me far more credible than you (as some random, unsigned person) in saying that he's never been arrested or done anything illegal. Again, if you'd like I would STRONGLY encourage you to call B'nai Brith and they would be more than willing to confirm this fact. Furthermore, I am currently in the process of writing articles for ALL the Vaughan Councillors. I feel they should all be represented here as one of Canada's largest and the fastest growing city in Canada. pm_shef 17:20, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

• Comment: The anon is asked to read User talk:64.231.242.98#Ballot Stuffing. Also, the anon should read WP:NPA and WP:AGF. --rob 17:51, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Rob you are accusing me of "ballot stuffing"? I am responding to false information posted not stuffing the ballot. pm-shef we will see if this article is taken down and if it is kept up then I will post the crimminal activity backed with documents from the York Regional Police, Toronto Police, RCMP and B'nai Brith Canada. You are tring to say that your father is notable enough to have an article posted but he has to get his son to write it and defend it. I am all for keeping it up as long as more notable people are kept up. How can you justify Alan Shefman being posted who served only a few months as councillor and no other current councillor or current or former Mayors posted (I posted former Mayor Lorna Jackson the other day) or even other people like Andrew Stronach (Frank Stronach's son and brother to Belinda) who got deleted the other day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.231.242.98 (talk • contribs)

Delete one more thing pm-shef the ONLY REASON you posted this article about your father was an attempt to use as political tool and to further his so called human rights company. If wikipedia doesn't mind people using them as a political pond and as free advertising for a questionable company then they should keep it up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.231.242.98 (talk • contribs)

• *rolls eyes repeatedly*, This is starting to get rediculous. Let me clear some things up.
  • Yes, I am Alan's son
  • Alan does not even know that this page exists, I wrote it after finding the City of Vaughan entry and noticing that none of the councillors had sites. Since obviously I know more about Alan than about the other councillors, I made his first, as I said before, I am in the process of making entries for the other councillors as we speak
  • I very much support your posting of a Lorna Jackson article, she is very deserving as one, as are a number of former and current councilors.
  • Finally, about this "only reason" junk, please get a grip. How many people do you think use wikipedia to find themselves a human rights consultant? Probably none. I posted this article for informational purposes, and if it is kept, I will expand it. Alan is a noteable person in Vaughan, and if it bothers you that much, I'll agree to remove the external link at the bottom.
• Also, I very highly doubt you have any documents from the police. Especially since he didn't do anything illegal. And even if he did, the Toronto police don't have jurisdiction in Vaughan. Good try though

Though on another note, if anon votes don't count (which I wasn't aware of) then do we not have a unanimous "keep" decision? pm_shef 20:42, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

To Pm_shef I would send you a message privately but I don’t know how through here, so I will post it here. I am new and still don’t know how to use all the features here. I think this is getting a little ridiculous so this will be my last post here unless I am asked to answer a question.

It appears that we agree that if Alan Shefman’s article stays up then all the other members of Vaughan council should also be posted. You mentioned you will work on the others, I will also and we both could make changes as needed to all of them (that’s if councillors of a small city is notable enough for wikipedia which I think is questionable) I posted Lorna Jackson up and you appeared to agree with this posting. With all do respect I think we could agree that there are many prominent people in Vaughan much more deserving of an article than Alan Shefman. Among past Vaughan council members who do you think deserves a page? Susan Kadis and Mario Racco are already posted but not as past councillors as an MP and MPP. Do you think any or all of the following deserves an article. Former Councillors David Chapley, Bernie Green and/or Gino Rosati, what about former Mayor Garnet Williams? What about any other prominent Vaughan residents? The only others that I found posted are as following (there are probably more that I didn’t find). Former Chief of Toronto and York Region Police Julian Fantino (who is a personal friend) (wink, wink pm_shef), Former MPP Tina Molinari, Former Federal Tory Candidate Josh Cooper, Vaughan MP Maurizio Bevilacque, Vaughan MPP Greg Sorbara. You know wikipedia puts some derogatory remarks (that are based of facts) in articles, this can be found on the Vaughan page about Michael DiBiase and Julian Fantino’s page to name a couple. It should be no different with Alan Shefman’s.

On another note about your comment about Toronto Police don’t have jurisdiction in Vaughan. If a criminal act is committed within their jurisdiction (Toronto) the city that this person resides in (Vaughan) does not matter in certain criminal acts (for example some none violent crimes) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.231.242.98 (talk • contribs)

• First of all, Vaughan is not a small city it is the 10th largest City in Ontario and the fastest growing municipality in Canada. Second of all, yes I think former Mayor Garnet Williams deserves a page, though I personally don't know enough about him to write it. David Chapley and Bernie Green did nothing of any note for the community, though if you were to demonstrate that I'm wrong on that point then I would consider not objecting to their posting. I'm not quite sure why you "winked" at me after Fantino, neither I nor my father know him beyond in his capacity as former Chief of YR Police. Furthermore, if Josh Cooper has a site, after having done absolutely nothing of note besides running, and losing for Federal office, then why on earth shouldn't Alan? Also, you do seem to have a personal grudge against Alan for some reason, care to tell why? or who you are? pm_shef 23:44, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Pm_shef this will really be my last post. With a population of 235,000 Vaughan is still considered a small city, saying it’s the 10th largest in Ontario is not really saying much. In ten years or so it should be in the same category as say Mississauga. I think that Josh Cooper’s article was appropriate to be posted last year when he was a federal candidate but I think it should be deleted now, I think you would agree. I agree if Cooper deserves a page then Alan Shefman or almost anyone does but I let you know about Cooper because I was trying not to be biased. I will write an article about Garnet Williams, David Chapley, Bernie Green, Gino Rosati and maybe some others that I can think of that contributed to the growth of Vaughan if Vaughan Councillors including Alan Shefman stays up. I don’t mean this as an insult but you may be a little to young to realize this. Chapley and Green were the backbone of establishing the Thornhill we know today. Either Chapley or Green should be the Ward 5 councillor now, not Alan Shefman. If Alan Shefman’s page remains up then I will explain how he became Councillor. Notice how on Mario Racco’s page it mentions “under controversial circumstances” when he lost an election. Who you claim that Alan Shefman will challenge for the Liberal Provincial seat in 2007. Why doesn’t Alan Shefman challenge Susan Kadis for the Federal Liberal seat? He would have a better chance of beating her than Racco. It wasn’t that long ago that Racco beat Kadis. I winked because I know Fantino. I don’t have a grudge against Alan Shefman I just don’t think he deserves an article here or for that matter any Vaughan councilor, maybe the Mayor deserves a page. I live in Thornhill but I am sure you figured that out, last year my lawn had a green sign that kept disappearing. Lucky for me I put up a surveillance camera to see how they kept disappearing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.231.242.98 (talk • contribs)

• *raises eyebrow* So now you are accusing him of a crime. I suggest you be very careful with what you say, that could very well be considered slander. Once again, I challenge you to provide evidence of any real contributions Chapley or Green made to the City of Vaughan. I'm not aware of these "controversial circumstances" that you refer to, and since it wasn't in Thornhill, I am positive that neither Alan or Susan had anything to do with it since they are both Thornhill politicians. You also say that "either chapley or green should be ward 5 councillor now." Why exactly? What have they done for Thornhill? Furthermore, it seems to me that Alan received a clear vote of support from the electors, with almost 10% more votes than Green and over 10% more votes than Chapley in a field of 13 candidates. Really, I think your above comment proves that the afd nomination was totally politically motivated and should be discounted pm_shef 04:01, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

My comment about Mario Racco's page saying "controversial circumstances" was just saying that they put these kind of comments up not that Shefman or Kadis was involved in Racco's lose. You have got to agree that Alan Shefman became a councillor under what is mostlikely the most "controversial circumstances" ever in Thornhill. Chapley or Green should be the councillor based on there past accomplishments and past experience alone. Alan Shefman was quoted and admitted himself in an article in the Vaughan Citizen and the Thornhill Liberal that he wouldn't have become councillor if it wasn't for the interference of Susan Kadis. Let me correct you, Shefman didn't get a clear vote of support it was Kadis that got it for him. Please answer my question about why Alan Shefman would challange Mario Racco for the Liberal Provincial seat and not challenge a weaker (based on results when Racco and Kadis ran against each other) Susan Kadis for the Federal Liberal seat. I think you would agree the Federal Liberal seat is a lot more secure than the Provincial Liberal seat. Many expect that Tina Molinari will be re-elected Provinicialy regardless if Racco, Shefman or Kadis runs Provincially. Is it possible to post a video clip on here? The accomlishements of Chapley and Green far and away exceed the accomlishments of Shefman and Kadis. As I mentioned before if councillor articles are posted then I will post Chapley and Green who are much more deserving of articles than most of the current councillors. I really don't think councillor article are appropriate for here, the only ones that I think are appropriate are Susan Kadis as MP, Mario Racco as MPP, Mayor Michael DiBiase and former Mayors Lorna Jackson and Garnet Williams I think you have proven that the only reason you posted an article of Alan Shefman was politically motivated, you mentioned yourself that he is planning on challenging Mario Racco which he will not stand an chance of beating Racco. P.S. you did a good job in cleaning up the Lorna Jackson article. It looks great!

• Once again, you have not proven anything. Especially since I said that all the current councillors should have pages. I asked you before and I'll ask you again, exactly what accomplishments to Chapley and Green have? Honestly, wikipedia isn't your personal vendetta site, if you dislike him so much, make your own webpage. On another note, how long does this thing go before a decisions is made? pm_shef 16:40, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
  • The process requires that the debate be open for a week. Bearcat 08:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

• Generally, the established precedent is that city councillors should only be on here if they (a) serve on the council of a major metropolitan city that's internationally known (i.e. Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Vancouver), or (b) are already notable for other reasons and their city council term is just an extra detail. A senior director of the Ontario Human Rights Commission meets criterion b, so keep this, but the precedent does not support a blanket permission to write up everybody on Vaughan's city council. A city of 235,000 people does not qualify for criterion (a). (Mayors are a different policy entirely; the precedent is much more unequivocally in favour of mayors having articles.) And by the way, this page is to discuss the merits or lack thereof of the article, so can the debate about the fundamental merits of his entire political career and kindly stay on the topic. Bearcat 08:17, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I am responding to the last comment about the criteria just to make sure I understand about criteria for Alan Shefman’s article. (1) I understand that as a city councillor of a smallish city his article does NOT meet the criteria (2) A Senior Director of the Ontario Human Rights Commission does meet the criteria but in order for this article to stay posted it must (A) be proven that Alan Shefman was director of communications and education for the Ontario Human Rights Commisission and (B) prove that this position was a Senior Director’s position. I have doubts that this position was and/or he was a Senior Director, lots of positions within Governement have “fancy” names to make them sound better than what they really are. I myself was a Census Commissioner for Statistics Canada which I can admit myself was a position that was nothing special or notable as every area in Canada had there own Census Commissioner with this title. I would estimate that there was about 450 to 500 people in Canada with this title during the 2001 Census. If Alan Shefman’s article stays then I will post an article of myself based on my “Census Commissioner” position with Statisitcs Canada. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.231.242.98 (talk • contribs)

• No, you won't. By your own admission, "Census Commissioner" isn't a high-power and high-profile job; it's one that about 500 other people hold at any given time. Being a senior director of the Ontario Human Rights Commission is not an equivalent position; it's high in the org chart, has a lot of authority, and there are never more than a handful of them. Keeping of this does not grant you precedent to write about people who've held minor positions, and for that matter, Misplaced Pages expressly disallows people from writing an article about themselves. Bearcat 20:06, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Good point I agree with your totally my profile does not belong here just as Alan Shefman's does not, please keep in mind that (a) Alan Shefman's article was posted by his son and (b) he never held a senior directors postion with the Ontario Human Rights Commisission he held a postion that is held by a few hundered people at any given time which is not a high-power nor high-profile position. If you are trying to say that his old position is more senior than his current position, let me ask you. Why would he take so many steps backwards in his career path, going from a so called "senior position" to self employed to school trustee to city councillor in a small city. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.231.242.98 (talk • contribs)

The Ontario Human Rights Commission most certainly does not have a few hundred Directors of Communications and Education at any given time; it has one. And for the record: Misplaced Pages AFD is not a place where you have the right to wage a POV war on someone you personally don't like. You say your piece once and then be done with it; you do not post an individual response to every individual comment that gets posted here. And you are required to sign your comments; you can do this by typing ~~~~ at the end. Oh, and by the way...if you so much as BREATHE on the Susan Kadis article again, you can consider yourself banned. Bearcat 21:10, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

First thanks for correcting your mistake on Susan Kadis's page. It looks good now as what is posted is the truth. If Alan Shefman's page stays because of his so called "senior directors" position with the Ontario Human Rights Commission then I will post all 200 or so current "senior directors” and as many as I could find of past “senior directors” of the Ontario Human Rights Commission. By the way, I was employed by the Ontario Human Rights Commission in the early 1980’s. My title was “Assistant Deputy Minister” The over 200 people across the Province within the Commission with the title “Director” in there name reported to me and was my responsibility. You still did not answer my question about why would Alan Shefman take so many steps backwards in his career path if he held such a high power position with the Ontario Human Rights Commission. The answer is because it was not a senior position. I guess I could get my son to list my profile here as I held a more "senior" position (even though I don't think I am notiable enough to have an article) than the so called "senior directors"

Here is a link to the role of “Assistant Deputy Minister” this is from the province of Alberta, http://www.pao.gov.ab.ca/learning/corpexec/adm-profile/role-of-the-adm.htm , it is similar to Ontario, I just couldn’t find anything from Ontario on the internet. They don’t even list the “directors” because it is not a senior position and is to low in the “ranking of positions” “directors” position within the government is similar to being a department manager at a department store or a grocery store. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.231.242.98 (talk • contribs)

I have added a little more information to this page. He was a member of York University's Board of Governors. I think he is notable enough to stay here. Keep. --YUL89YYZ 22:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to again agree with Bearcat, this is relevant and the director position is senior. In fact, there is only one person who occupies position of Director of Communication and Education. That person works directly under the Chief Commissioner (the head of the commission) so to say that Alan's position wasn't senior is foolish. Anyways, I added more information, specifically about the help he gave to the prosecution in the Keegstra trial in Alberta and also info about the by-election in 2004 when he got elected... i thought that would make the article more relevant. pm_shef 05:01, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

To be fair, I should advise you as well that while Misplaced Pages doesn't specifically disallow such a thing, for purposes of maintaining objectivity and neutrality it's best if people don't write articles about their own family members. Much like the idea of writing about yourself, which is more explicitly frowned upon here, it's generally best to stand back with the understanding that if a direct relative of yours is genuinely notable enough to have an article, someone else will eventually write one. Bearcat 18:44, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

• Ok, I wasn't aware of that, this was the first article that I'd written on Misplaced Pages, and I'll be sure to be more careful next time. That being said, there's no reason to delete this pm_shef 20:02, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I reveiwed all the comments and I would say that this article should be deleted User: 67.70.151.219

Note: The comment immediately above was the user's third-ever edit under the signed IP number -- #1 was to the article itself and #4 was to Lorna Jackson, the mayor of the very same city whose council includes Mr. Shefman. This edit pattern strongly implies that the user has a vested interest in the outcome of this debate. And considering that this user's second edit was to an obscure unelected political candidate who ran against Susan Kadis (yep, her again) in the 2004 election, I'm now convinced that this was essentially a partisan political attack from the outset.

I'm hereby invoking admin power to close the current debate as an irreparably tainted discussion from which a viable and honest consensus cannot realistically be determined. I will renominate the article on procedural grounds for a clean discussion. Bearcat 08:58, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.