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Revision as of 04:40, 7 November 2005 editSamuelSpade (talk | contribs)32 edits →Request for Arbitration← Previous edit Revision as of 06:27, 7 November 2005 edit undoDavidpdx (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users3,793 edits →Request for ArbitrationNext edit →
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:Nonsense!Don't call me sockpuppet. All of my edits and reverts were in good faith. Show us where Johnski or myself ever showed any knowledge that isn't public infomration. ] 04:40, 7 November 2005 (UTC) :Nonsense!Don't call me sockpuppet. All of my edits and reverts were in good faith. Show us where Johnski or myself ever showed any knowledge that isn't public infomration. ] 04:40, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

::If you want to call reverting a page without consensus nonsense, that's fine by me. It's time you and whomever else (notice I'm being slightly nice about it) follow the rules. That's all we ask. If you do that, then there is no arbitration and we'll back off. The ball is squarely in your court. ] 06:27, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Revision as of 06:27, 7 November 2005

Previous discussions:

Unprotected

I've unlocked this because the discussion seems to have dried up. Please try to reach a compromise between your positions. Any apparent sock puppet accounts are likely to be blocked by the way. Cheers, SlimVirgin 02:52, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I think it's absouletly stupid to unprotect this page at this point. Look at what has happened already Johnski has vandalized the page. Why do you think he won't? He's going to take EVERY opprotunity he can to revert this. Nothing has changed since it was protected. Yes, the conversation has "dried up," but that is due in part to most of us taking stepping away from this article that has ended up being so time consuming for awhile.
This article needs to be protected until the time the arbitration committee can accept a case in which they can hear the complaints about what is going on. In essance by unprotecting this page you are enabling Johnski to continue to vandalize this page. Davidpdx 12:10, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
We can't keep an article protected indefinitely. Have you filed an RfAr, and how long were you envisaging protection would be needed? SlimVirgin 12:33, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I realize the article can't be protected indefinately. I have not filed an RfAr because last time I looked they weren't accepting any more cases. I will check again.
The problem I have, is those that are moderators seem to do little or nothing to help when there is a legitimate problem with vandalism. I've reported Johnski numerous times for 3RR violation. Has he been banned? Of course not! I have also asked for a IP check, to see who a bunch of diffrent users are, some of which we believe are sockpuppets Johnski uses. Again I wasn't able to get a response back.
I'm not trying to be mean to you SV. I just have to ask myself, why bother? Is it really worth my time if someone can just trash things over and over again (we are talking 60+ times in two months). He has ignored the rules of Misplaced Pages and basically gets away with it. It goes to show the system doesn't work. Davidpdx 14:27, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
The other thing I would like to say about your origonal post above and the comment, "Please try to reach a compromise between your positions." The fact is that I have tried to come to a compromise with Johnski. Everytime I turned around he reverted this page and claimed he had consensus when he clearly did not. He has lied numerous times and misrepresents the rules of Misplaced Pages to suit his own needs. That is why no one is willing to work with him. He says we are the ones who are uncooperative, well I'm sorry to say it's he, himself that is causing the problems. Davidpdx 14:43, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

In related news, User:Jayjg protected Bakok Atoll for us yesterday after I sought his advice. Johnski just takes the fight to other articles. I've issued an ultimatum to Johnski over on that talk page, though I don't know if he's seen it; Johnski is in violation of several policies, and we are not going to let this go on forever. We will take it through dispute resolution if we have to. Protected or not, Johnski will not be allowed to use these articles as his playground. Jayjg also said he'd support blocking Johnski for gaming the three revert rule. Jdavidb (talk • contribs) 14:47, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I am glad to hear that David someone else is interested in taking a stance. I'm also appreciative of what SV said about banning sockpuppets (I'm saying it now cause I know I might have seemed harsh in my post above). I have filed a request for mediation, which is the first step. We will see if it's accepted. If that doesn't work then we will take to the next step, which is arbitration. Davidpdx 15:07, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
David, don't apologize for being mean: you're not, and your point is well taken. I know what it's like to be on the wrong end of a troll, and I'll do what I can to help. My problem is I know nothing about the issues or what accounts we're talking about. Could you list the sock puppets or IP addresses this person is believed to have used, and which articles he tends to hang around? Either here or on my talk page would be fine. SlimVirgin 03:04, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Talk Page Archive 2

Mr. Davidpdx: Please fix the second archieved page as it is only a duplication of the first.KAJ 03:56, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I fixed the link to the 2nd archive. The page itself was fine, it was the link on the main page that was in fact messed up. I copy/pasted it and didn't change the number. I also added the heading for this topic to seperate it from the other discussions. Davidpdx 04:24, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

No one has objected to this, and if so, explain:

US OCC balancing act

Hello fellow Wikipedians, I noticed that you expressed interest in helping with this article. The Slim Virgin protected the DOM article after a round of rapid fire fighting between Gene Poole and Wiki-facts broke out. In the past all I've tried to do is take from credible sources using parts that have some consensus and balancing some areas with the other side of the story. I gave up on that, and just started posting POV check at the top of Gene's article. That POV check is even considered vandalism by some that claim I have sock-puppets. As you can see it isn't easy to get consensus on this article. I'll give you an example of something that needs balancing as I see it. An employee of the US OCC has been quoted as saying that DOM is a fraud, whereas the offical web site of the US OCC only refers to DOM as an "unrecognized soverignty" that licensed a bank that may be operating without permission in the USA, so I and another wikiuser, KAJ, tried to get consensus (even boldly editing) to add this fact, as a "however" following the employee's quoted statement. Am I way off base here?

Here is the proposed text:

According to John Shockey, former special assistant, U.S. Comptroller of the Currency, in an address to the 4th International Financial Fraud Convention in London, 27 May 1999: "The Dominion of Melchizedek is a fraud, a major fraud, and not a legitimate sovereign entity. Persons associated with the Dominion of Melchizedek have been indicted and convicted of a variety of crimes." However, the only official website of the U.S. Comptroller of the Currency refers to Melchizedek as a "non-recognized sovereignty" that "licensed" Caribbean Bank of Commerce.

The last sentence in the above paragraph is the only addition to the current paragraph proposed. Can anyone give a valid reason why it wouldn't be best to quote from the US OCC's official website to give balance to the article? Sincerely, Johnski 08:36, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm confused. The letter you linked to says: "Information has been received that the subject entity holding a bank license issued by the Dominion of Melchizedek, a non-recognized sovereignty, has an unauthorized address in the United States. This entity, subject to Alert 98-14, dated April 21, 1998, subsequently had its Antigua license reinstated. However, the government of Antigua and Barbuda, through its supervisor of banks, has recently given notice that the subject entity's license will again be revoked."
There is nothing positive in this letter. It says DOM is unrecognized and that the licence it issued will again be revoked. It's entirely consistent with the statement by John Shockey. What do you see as the point of including it, Johnski? SlimVirgin 18:55, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Certainly people HAVE objected to this proposal, as they have objected to ALL of your edits. That is why the next step is being taken against you in terms of your behavior on Misplaced Pages. Those of us who have been reverting your vandalism (and yes it is vandalism) are taking a stand against you. Either you stop vandalising articles or we will work to have further action taken against you. It's that simple.
As I have stated before, and I will state again, it is more then just myself that is sick and tired of your vandalism, lying and changing the rules on Misplaced Pages to suit your own agends. This WILL stop and it will stop NOW. End of story. Davidpdx 04:19, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Mr. Davidpdx: Please give a logical reason why this shouldn't be balanced; and show me where anyone else has said so for this specific paragraph. The entire article was reverted before, not simply attemtping to gain consensus for this paragraph. It seems plain and simple, you don't think this subject should have balance?KAJ 06:02, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
It's not about balance, it's about following the rules of Misplaced Pages, which you have failed to do time and time again. You have lied, reverted against consensus and changed the rules to push your own agenda. Again this will stop. We have started to take action against you and your sockpuppets. Either you stop, or further action WILL be taken against you. Davidpdx 09:09, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Mr. Davidpdx: Again, you ignore the issue of what I am asking about, the US OCC issue. Yes, you and others have reverted edits without valid reasons, but I don't know that this issue of the US OCC has been dealt with as a seperate issue. If it has, please show me the text of the talk, and if not, please deal with it directly and please do NOT ignore it as you are doing now.KAJ 18:36, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
You are the one that in fact is ignorning reality, which is the fact you (not I) reverted pages with out consensus Johnski. As I will state once again, you have failed to follow the rules. Either you stop or further action will be taken against you. Davidpdx 19:09, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

] doesn't work. Also, this is an attempt to take the complete NON-recognition of DOM by that website and pretend it is somehow in contrast to the official who also said that it isn't recognized. If that were to be inserted, it should instead read

According to John Shockey, former special assistant, U.S. Comptroller of the Currency, in an address to the 4th International Financial Fraud Convention in London, 27 May 1999: "The Dominion of Melchizedek is a fraud, a major fraud, and not a legitimate sovereign entity. Persons associated with the Dominion of Melchizedek have been indicted and convicted of a variety of crimes."
The U.S. Comptroller of the Currency website only refers to Melchizedek as a "non-recognized sovereignty" that "licensed" Caribbean Bank of Commerce.

In this way it would be clear that these two facts both reinforce the claim that DOM is a fraud rather than implying that pointing out DOM's non-recognized status somehow refutes it.

Note that you don't yet have consensus for this change. Jdavidb (talk • contribs) 19:29, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Mr. Jdavidb: This shows good faith and a real effort on your part. The reason for putting in the word, "However" is due to the fact that we know the web site is really that of the US OCC, but the statement attributed to Mr. Shockey is on a web site that anyone could have created. I found places on the Internet that discredit the owner of that private web site. They claim that Mr. Addkisson is arrogant, pompus, has alterior motives to get clients for his tax planning business, etc. Can we stress somehow that the quotation is from a private web site in order to contrast it with the statement that is from an official government web site? We could take a more reliable source for quoting Mr. Shockey, i.e. the Washington Post, but in that case we would have to give the quote of the WP asking who's to say its phony since it has disputed homeland, etc., and the offical US OCC to follow as well to show balance, most reliable sources, and remove bias.KAJ 19:54, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Why shouldn't this be the final for now:
According to John Shockey, former special assistant, U.S. Comptroller of the Currency, in an address to the 4th International Financial Fraud Convention in London, 27 May 1999: "The Dominion of Melchizedek is a fraud, a major fraud, and not a legitimate sovereign entity. Persons associated with the Dominion of Melchizedek have been indicted and convicted of a variety of crimes."
The U.S. Comptroller of the Currency website only refers to Melchizedek as a "non-recognized sovereignty" that "licensed" Caribbean Bank of Commerce.
Kaj, can you supply a link to the WP article, please? SlimVirgin 18:59, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
SV, I found it here: http://www.melchizedek.com/press/war-france.htm Rriter 23:49, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Ms. SlimVirgin: You can get a cleaner version from Nexis-Lexis that doesn't have inserts like "(what religion)". It is confusing because some of the other inserts are part of the article. KAJ 19:21, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Wow, no surprise ANOTHER Johnski SOCKPUPPET. It's it interesting someone asks KAJ something and then Rriter (who is a realtively new user) answers. What an idiot. Davidpdx 09:46, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Johnski can't you grasp the concept of CONSENSUS? Or is that too difficult for you? You can not just add stuff willy nilly because you think it is legitimate, especially if others disagree. Get that through your damn head! Davidpdx 09:48, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Mr. Davidpdx: You might be wise to slow down on your accusations until it can be proven that anyone that has an interest in DOM that doesn't express your point of view is a sock-puppet, and reconsider the way you start your talk with a stranger.KAJ 19:21, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
You might be wise to stop creating sockpuppets. They are hurting your creditablity. Davidpdx 20:14, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Request for Arbitration

Dominion of Melchizedek and related pages

There is an ongoing revert war with Johnski, who has reverted the above page 60+ times in the last two months.

Johnski is strongly believed to be an active member of Dominion of Melchizedek, as he possesses an intimate familiarity with details of court cases and other historical matters pertaining to it that few, if any, outsiders would be privy to. As a primary source and should not be contributing to any articles on this subject, in accordance with Misplaced Pages general editing principles.

He has violated the 3RR rule numerous times. To justify his reverts, he claims that his version has consensus, and that the prior version is biased. He has also used numerous sock puppets to revert the above page, and to introduce Melchizedek-related promotional content into many other articles as well, including: Bokak Atoll, Karitane Shoal, Solkope, Rotuma, Clipperton Island, Antarctica, Micronation, Fictional country, Bible, Melchizedek, Melchizedekian, Ecclesiastical state and David Even Pedley.

When challenged by other editors Johnski selectively quotes media reports out of context in order to put a positive spin on consistently extremely negative reportage about Melchizedek. He consistently seeks to insert these out-of-context quotations into the above articles to provide what he alledges is "balanced" reportage, and has attempted to delete quotations which show Melchizedek in a negative light.

Johnski does not follow the rules of Misplaced Pages and frankly changes them in order to push his own agenda. Additionally, his presumed association with a group known for defrauding people in many parts of the world of millions of dollars is a negative reflection on Misplaced Pages, and should be curtailed.

Users complaning about Johnski's behavior:

Making a Complaint against the following:

Davidpdx 15:01, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Mr. Davidpdx: Is this all that is necessary to request mediation? Mediation is a good idea, if someone is willing to mediate.KAJ 18:29, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Mr. Davidpdx: Why did you change it to Arbitration?KAJ 18:43, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Note the above has been updated based on recommendation of those making the complaint. Davidpdx 08:11, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Nonsense!Don't call me sockpuppet. All of my edits and reverts were in good faith. Show us where Johnski or myself ever showed any knowledge that isn't public infomration. SamuelSpade 04:40, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
If you want to call reverting a page without consensus nonsense, that's fine by me. It's time you and whomever else (notice I'm being slightly nice about it) follow the rules. That's all we ask. If you do that, then there is no arbitration and we'll back off. The ball is squarely in your court. Davidpdx 06:27, 7 November 2005 (UTC)