Misplaced Pages

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Biography: Politics and Government

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United States: Presidential elections Low‑importance

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	Barack Obama (inactive)
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U.S. Congress High‑importance

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Politics Top‑importance

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Spoken Misplaced Pages

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• Aaron Klein (March 8, 2009). "Misplaced Pages scrubs Obama eligibility". WorldNetDaily.

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Special discussion pages

• /Article probation, /Incidents
• /Historical diffs, /weight, /race

Why is wikipedia not allowing edits that question Obama's eligibility? It has been widely reported from many news sources and there are several court case at various levels of the legal system ranging up to the supreme court. Further his associations with Rev. Wright and Ayers are not allowed to be posted. Why is wikipedia allowing a whitewash of history? These are relevant to the historical account. Facts are facts no matter how inconvenient they may be to someones ideology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pt1604 (talk) 00:04, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

This is an easy one: Misplaced Pages is about verifiability, not truth. Things that violate WP:BLP aren't "allowed" - otherwise, if you can find citations from reliable sources, it is allowed. But if it can't be properly cited...then it can't be in there, simply put.  Frank  |  talk  00:23, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

The Chicago Tribune isn't a reliable source?

Read Misplaced Pages's standard: The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed.

Guess what? Reliable sources have been used and it's still being edited in a tainted way. The entry should be flagged until bias is removed (bias from anything critical about Obama on his page)

Now, read what else Misplaced Pages demands: Neutral point of view is a fundamental Wikimedia principle and a cornerstone of Misplaced Pages. All Misplaced Pages articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles, and of all article editors.

Does this apply to Obama or not? As the entry currently is displayed, bias is clearly showing by censoring ANY and ALL entries that may show controversy or negatively toward the President.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tlwitness (talk • contribs)

There's an article about his campaign that goes into attempts to paint him with guilt by association. There's also an article that covers all of those frivolous court cases at some length. Those articles have been out there for months, and anyone who knows how to spell "Barack" can find them. Baseball Bugs 00:27, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

That doesn't make any sense. This is an ongoing controversy. It is quite easy to verify the truth, from most notable news sources, that this is, in fact, an ongoing controversy. So, again, why no mention of the controversies in the article? 69.248.3.210 (talk) 00:56, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Additionally, if such material is added to the article, I recommend any such material be put into a new section. That way, it will be easier to integrate into the article. SMP0328. (talk) 00:37, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I have restored the neutrality tag, because this discussion is ongoing. I've seen this discussion over at Talk:Second Amendment to the United States Constitution. As long as at least one editor believes the article violates NPOV, that tag must stay. SMP0328. (talk) 00:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Can you point to this ongoing discussion? And no, NPOV tags should be used when disputes cannot be resolved. A single editor complaining about an article does not validate tagging. You've got to have actionable issues with the article. Guettarda (talk) 01:39, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

It makes no sense to apply NPOV when the info about Obama's ineligibility controversy is verifiable by linking it to Chicago Tribune, a reputable newspaper. If anything, it seems that leftist bias of an editor is preventing a discussion about a very important issue. It is hard to believe that one biased part of leftist "machine" can murder our quest to get to the full truth.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Lokietek (talk • contribs)

Misplaced Pages does in fact have a lot on this subject Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories. Do the fringey theories merit inclusion in the main article? They do not. IronDuke 01:34, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I propose implementing the solution to a similar problem at the Sixteenth Amendment article. I tried doing it, but was reverted. SMP0328. (talk) 02:19, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Because it gives undue weight, i.e. undeserved dignity, to a fringe theory that the courts have already rejected. WND and others are desparate to keep it alive. Baseball Bugs 02:23, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

It's clearly fringe material, on the far outer edge of the campaign period blog attacks. Not a single serious reliable source ever reported either questions surrounding his birthplace, or the "natural born citizen" rule, a legitimate claim. The few that reported it at all simply said that somebody made the claim, and the few lawsuits that were filed were not by reputable plaintiffs and all were summarily dismissed. The fact that fringe litigants file frivolous lawsuits against the president, and that partisan publications take up the cause, is not a significant issue in the life of a sitting president. If it were significant the reliable sources would cover it. Most issues that even get a few words of mention have hundreds of reliable sources to establish weight - things that take up paragraph have thousands to tens of thousands of articles. Misplaced Pages does cover the fringe Obama theories in depth in its own article. But space is limited here in the main article about Obama, and we do not have room for every conspiracy theory people care to believe on the subject. Wikidemon (talk) 02:39, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Correct. It is on Misplaced Pages; we do not censor. However, a Presidential article is long and we can't have everything in it. Since the Kenya thing has little to no factual basis, we place it in its own article.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:45, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality dispute?

The page is tagged, but I can't find any active discussion here. Am I missing something? Guettarda (talk) 01:30, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

See the above discussion. SMP0328. (talk) 01:53, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

The tag is totally frivolous, and every question the original tagger raises is answered elsewhere. I have posted a complaint about that conservapedia/conspiracist drive-by at WP:ANI. This article is under probation for a good reason. Baseball Bugs 01:56, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I do not believe the citizenship issue belongs in the main article. The conspirary theories page is appropriate for that. However, references to the Ayers & Wright controversies absolutely belong in there. These were major issues during his campaign and eventually became some of the most prominent arguments against electing him. If that is constantly edited out this article will continue to be in violation of Misplaced Pages NPOV guidelines KK5000 8 March 2009, 19:58 (EDT)

So why isn't any negative or critical information allowed on the Obama page? As the previous poster stated, Ayers and Wright were legitimate election controversies. If Misplaced Pages censors only from the left, it is useless as a source.

Those aren't bad points, but they're wrong from a Misplaced Pages point of view. We have stuff -- lots of stuff, on for example Wright: See here. The point being, yes, there are all sort of wonderful negative things one could cram into this article (and also any other majot politican's article) but there simply isn't room, and it isn't nearly relevant enough to make the cut for the main article. I mean... Ayers? Seriously? That's a footnote in the campaign article, let along the main BHO article. IronDuke 02:17, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't know where Ayers was a "footnote" in the campaign. Maybe on MSNBC. Ayers & especially Wright were covered extensively by the mainstream media. I am not saying an entire section needs to be dedicated to them, but getting a ban for merely adding them to the article when they should clearly be mentioned suggests zealotry on part of the admin. KK5000 9 March 2009, 02:48 (EDT)

I'm AB-SO-LUTE-LY APPALLED to learn the censoring going on with this site. I have heard murmurings in the past on some of the podcasts that I listen to as to the validity of Misplaced Pages as a source for anything. I have at times felt irritated at the fact that my university restricts citing this site as a source for any material. Now I KNOW WHY! I guess I have to preface by giving my party affiliate so that this post isn't simply passed off as a political rant - I tend to dip left in my beliefs. That being said, there are a couple of key points that the site is missing with clear intent. The Ayers and Wright questions/associations is very much a part of this person's presidential bio in that it outlines how he was able to overcome the accusations of another party and rise to the occasion with the support of his voters. How can we just pretend it didn't happen??? As well, it is public knowledge that he has not made his birth records available to public by the simple fact that it's NOT public knowledge. I have seen the response by wikipedia authors that they rely on facts, but that is a twisted response. As a part of many other bios, there are mentions of accusations without conviction. I can assure you, I will only have a couple more limited visits to this site - for the sole purpose of seeing responses to this post. I am now much more enlightened with the ways on this wiki site, which is extremely unfortunate since it has for a long time, been one of the first places that I go to research a wide range of topics. Very unfortunate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.145.92.22 (talk) 11:28, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Comments that Misplaced Pages is a whitewash

This page if for good faith, civil questions and comments aimed at improving the article. Gripes about Misplaced Pages's supposed political bias, article whitewashing, censorship, etc., are unhelpful. However, rather than adding fuel to the fire by deleting them or closing discussions at this point, I suggest we just move them all to this section and let people discuss it here. - Wikidemon (talk) 02:50, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

And yet as long as you separate ALL criticism from Obama's page, you are CENSORING his main page. Compromise: Why not have an entry entitled Criticisms and list all of that there? It appears that wikipedia is carrying obamas water. Pleanty of the "critics" claims about bush are STILL on his wikipedia page yet if you dare bring these you on obamas page you are banned? Shamefull. In fact why not just redirect the entire page to the whitehouse main page? Exactly. Why not remove anything critical of Bush while you're at it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tlwitness (talk • contribs)

Then why not give it a subset in the outline entitled Criticism or whatever you wish? You seem to have plenty of room for negative information concerning President Bush on his main page.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tlwitness (talk • contribs)

This article is clearly a whitewash. I am not some partisan hack with a dog in this hunt either. I am an expat political atheist who can read. All of the censors should be ashamed of themselves. The Wright issue was one of the most discussed issues of the campaign. It's not even mentioned here. In fact there's not a single non-positive element mentioned in this entire article unless you count the mention of his smoking and that's not necessarily negative. It's as though the Obama campaign wrote it. Shame. Ikilled007 (talk) 03:01, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your first contribution in three months. The article is factual, not positive or negative. Had Obama done something negative of note, let's say being arrested for drunk driving or the like, to be sure it would be in the article. As he has not, we just stick to the facts.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:06, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Wrong. You are censoring it. And the internet has found out. NewsBusters and Wnd.com are running articles about the removal of the ties to Wright and Ayers. I'm really getting sick of the constant Liberal bias on everything I have to look at on a day-to-day basis. This is a blatant violation of the rules and banning users for 3 days after attempting to add referenced material on the Ayers and Wright connections is too. Enough is enough. --Justin Herbert (talk) 03:23, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Squawk! Another WND mindless-parrot heard from. Baseball Bugs 03:26, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Your selective editing has extended ad infinitum into cyperspace, your credibility for all to seriously consider has now reached critical mass. read it here: http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=91114

Furtive admirer (talk) 03:22, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

If you actually believe what you read in that rag, you should go back to your college and demand a refund for having produced an ignoranimous. Baseball Bugs 03:25, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

This is fun. I'm really hoping Rush picks up the story; these drones are so mindless and so pathetic. The marching morons.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:29, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

As mentioned from an article linked from the DrudgeReport, Misplaced Pages is accused of censorship. When I look at the two pages (Presidents Bush and Obama), that accusation seems accurate. There is a statement on Pres. Bush's page that states "Many accusations have been made against the administration for allegedly misinforming the public and not having done enough to reduce carbon emissions and deter global warming." If this is OK, then why can't Pres Obama have a sentence "Many accusations have been made against President Obama that ." There are accusations. Fact. Those accusations have been reported by reputable sources. Fact. Is it a fact that Misplaced Pages staff are bias? LinuxSneaker (talk) 03:32, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh, no doubt. But as the staff are administrative only, and volunteers all over the world edit the encyclopedia, it doesn't really matter. Oh, I forgot to mention their "bias". They are all very big Yankee fans. Have a nice day!--Wehwalt (talk) 03:35, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Great reply. As an attorney, you deflect the conversation without answering the question. You've done way more editing then I - do you recommend (as a volenteer, not as a lawyer) that Pres Bush's or Pres. Obama's page get fixed? LinuxSneaker (talk) 03:46, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

We recommend that you go back to your fellow parrots at WND, and tell them we're tracking all of you down, which is why the page remains unprotected at this point - so you will all expose yourselves. Baseball Bugs 03:49, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Clearly you two are unbiased! Everyone who notes the whitewash must be a Limbaugh listener. What are you, the Obama SS? Your responses here are not helping with credibility. Ikilled007 (talk) 03:53, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

• There is nothing factually incorrect with the story. It is a true representation of the events on this page. The fact remains is this: It takes 3 Admins, working in unison, to squelch any/all changes to any article on Misplaced Pages. You make up any excuse you want, then have your buddies swoop in to agree with you; claim a 'consensus", then ban, ban, ban. The word is out. We know you're liberally biased. We are not stupid.64.53.138.18 (talk) 04:48, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
• You people must be crazy, suggesting a criticism section for Barack Obama. Nobody is allowed to criticize him, how could you not know this? Bush's WP page is allowed to contain controversies and criticisms because he is a Republican, but how dare you suggest that reasonable criticisms be included. The Wright and Ayers controversies were a major part of the Presidential campaign but they may not be included because they may make Obama look bad. I thought everybody knew this. WP editors: YOU HAVE BEEN EXPOSED!. - http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=91114 24.187.128.136 (talk) 03:48, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

is that Barack Obama?

a) yes

B) NO

Case closed, you propagandizing shill.

76.243.106.37 (talk) 07:59, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages's alreadly low credibility is sinking like a torpedoed submarine. 76.243.106.37 (talk) 08:02, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Editors and administrators are suppressing dissent.....this is a very troubling trend

I don't think all the name-calling is helpful here. We really should be rising above all that.

Having said that, I compared the articles on the previous 4 presidents with this one and any objective observer can readily see that Obama is being treated differently. Unlike those other presidential articles, there is practically no discussion of any of the controversial issues surrounding Obama here. (Don't believe me? See the articles on Clinton and GHW Bush to compare/contrast.) Certainly these controversial topics warrant their own articles, but complete censorship of any mention of these controversies or link to the ancillary articles in the main article damages Wiki's reputation, making this article look like a fluff piece and leaving the controlling administrators wide open to NPOV charges. One of the underlying principles of Misplaced Pages is that we should be writing these articles from the standpoint of consensus, and clearly consensus is lacking in the way this article has been handled.

I find it troubling when I see negative references to Misplaced Pages's credibility making their way into the media. It is important that we maintain NPOV in Misplaced Pages. But no matter my (or your) personal opinion of Obama, the most important point of these discussions is not the content of the article, rather it is the way that differing opinions are being handled by certain factions in the Wiki community. I find it VERY disturbing that questions about the conduct of certain administrators and editors and their NPOV or possible lack thereof are being swept under the rug without a meaningful discussion. The (quickly) deleted comments by a previous poster were unnecessarily inflammatory, but I must agree that certain editors involved with this article seem far too willing to use the "memory hole". Discussion?: yes! Consensus?: yes! NPOV?: yes! Blatant censorship?: I know what my answer is; what is yours?

(Now we get to wait and see how long this discussion topic lasts before it, too, is deleted!) NDM (talk) 08:41, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I have modified the heading here. If you want your contribution to stand you should honor the letter and spirit of article probation and WP:TALK generally, which is to use this page for suggesting improvements in the article. Crying censorship is not a suggestion for improving the article. If any editor's behavior troubles you there are appropriate forums for that but not here. With that out of the way the article is just fine. It is a reasonable, balanced treatment of the significant matters relevant to Obama's life and career. Of course it can be improved. Any article can be improved. But we'll have a hard time maintaining any reasonable discussion until all the ruckus dies down. Obama has not been President for very long, and there are (despite what partisans would wish to say off Misplaced Pages) simply no scandals or controversies of a magnitude comparable to those involving Bush, and particularly Clinton. Nobody is sweeping anything under the rug here. These pages are all in the open, and these matters have been discussed to the tune of hundreds of pages, each hundreds of thousands of bytes long. Wikidemon (talk) 09:04, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Wikidemon: you have completely missed the point of my posting. Please reread it. I am not talking about "Criticism of Obama", as you have taken the liberty to label my posting. As the heading at the top of the discussion page states clearly: "This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject." I am also not talking about any individual editor's bias or behavior. I am talking about a longstanding institutional bias within Misplaced Pages which is rearing its very ugly head here in this article, that of a perceived "progressive" bias among the administrators by many of the editors.

Your "modification" of my heading of this section seems to go a bit beyond the pale, especially when you state that "crying censorship" is not appropriate here. It appears that you have just done some censoring yourself. I have undone your revision of the heading, since it does not directly relate to the content of my posting. I would ask that you not modify it again, but instead limit your comments to the substantive issues that I raise vis a vis the conduct of certain factions within the Wiki community.

The fact that "these matters have been discussed to the tune of hundreds of pages, each hundreds of thousands of bytes long" clearly indicates that the Misplaced Pages community does not enjoy consensus about how the administrators have been handling this issue, determinations of "consensus" by the administrative fiat notwithstanding. It seems clear that Misplaced Pages administrators can expect to continue to hear the protests from many of the editors as long as these heavy-handed tactics continue, and as long as they continue to label the bona fide dissent that continues to rage in regards to this article as "consensus". NDM (talk) 10:17, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Please don't edit war over article headings. You should know that it is generally considered appropriate to refactor discussion headings so they describe the discussion topic rather than advocate a position, and also to reorganize discussion pages. If you have a complaint about longstanding institutional bias, as you put it above, or "Editors and administrators are suppressing dissent.....this is a very troubling trend" as you put it in your preferred heading, then this is definitely not the page for that discussion. You're wrong about the state of consensus, and you don't seem to have made an effort to understand the history of this series of articles article about which you are being so vociferous, despite never having contributed to them before today. You're accusing me of censorship and going beyond the pale, so I don't see any point responding to whatever point you may be trying to make. This discussion should probably be closed and/or merged with all the other complaints today about supposed censorship, bias, and whitewashing. You have not been notified formally of article probation but I do suggest you read about it at Talk:Barack Obama/Article probation. Wikidemon (talk) 10:37, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Wikidemon: Please quit conducting your own edit war over the heading of my comment. Feel free to start your own comment section and give it any title you choose. If you feel you must continue to do so, perhaps we need to get an administrator involved to settle our dispute about this point. I have written my original comment in good faith and your changing of the heading of my comment is inappropriate as it tends to obscure the point I am making. I feel this falls under "Modifying User's comments." I must point out that I have not edited the main article itself, and your continued deletion of the title of my heading on the discussion page is vexatious....please stop. NDM (talk) 10:59, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

As I told you, changing talk headings is fine, and they should be descriptive rather than contentious. I'm leaving a caution on your talk page and closing this discussion as unproductive. Try listening next time rather than doing battle. Wikidemon (talk) 11:04, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

This talk page is not here to rant about other editors or policies. Please take these discussions to the appropriate policy pages. Brothejr (talk) 12:37, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

There isn't one mention of Ayers or Wright on this page, which is patently absurd. There are people more capable of fixing this than me, so anyone with the stones feel free to give it a whirl. Skydiver99 (talk)

Frankly, this whole page reads like a member of Obama's staff wrote it. There is absolutely NOTHING whatsoever regarding criticism or negative campaign coverage, and it is capped with a section extolling his virtues as a public speaker. Seriously? This is bad even by biased standards. Skydiver99 (talk)

Then grow some "stones" and fix it yourself. Don't just drive-by and complain, that doesn't help anyone. Dayewalker (talk) 06:22, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

And please make sure you have read the right articles including Barack_Obama_presidential_campaign,_2008 and Barack Obama presidential primary campaign, 2008 as that is where information on the campaign that you can't find is located. Mfield (talk) 06:24, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm aware of what happens to users who dare to modify Obama's page in any way that isn't visibly positive to him: they get banned. Honestly, does dishonesty on a forum such as Misplaced Pages ultimately serve the pro-Obama cause? All that does is establish certain supporters of his as unscrupulous. One way or another, dishonesty ultimately sabotages all that employ it, because the truth gets out.

Now, am I saying that it is an objective fact that Obama is bad? No. I'm saying that this entry is squeaky clean and actually reads like an ADVERTISEMENT for him. His press people couldn't improve on it as it. That's just wrong and violates the spirit of Misplaced Pages. Skydiver99 (talk)

You do realise that there's an entire article on the Wright controversy, and another article on the Ayers controversy, and another on the citizenship issue? That there are well over 200 articles in and its subcategories? Misplaced Pages articles are relatively short. Obviously we can't get every detail of every bit of trivia into the main article. You realise that, right? Surely you aren't just spouting off without looking at the facts? Guettarda (talk) 06:32, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

And BTW, there are ZERO mentions of Wright and Ayers on his presidential campaign pages, even though both received serious media attention. Skydiver99 (talk)

You mean apart from Barack_Obama_presidential_primary_campaign,_2008#Impact_of_Rev._Jeremiah_Wright and this whole article Jeremiah_Wright_controversy? Mfield (talk) 06:33, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

(strange comment moved - Wikidemon (talk) 08:15, 9 March 2009 (UTC))

? Not sure what you mean but this is a biographical article about the man himself. Thing is we have other articles too, lots of them, on all sorts of topics, all edited by lots of people from diverse backgrounds. We are like a big book with lots and lots of pages. And we have links you can click on to get to other topics. It's amazing really. Mfield (talk) 08:07, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

The Ayers issue was a tiny blip, at the very end of the campaign. It had no impact of the opinion polls, and barely existed outside of Sarah Palin's speeches. The Wright issue was relatively big for a short space of time, and it's covered. Guettarda (talk) 06:39, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

This talk page is not here to rant about other editors or policies. Please take these discussions to the appropriate policy pages. Brothejr (talk) 12:37, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

First of all I want to say that I don't think there's any question of President Obama's American citizenship. Also, in light of a recent and unfortunately controversial return to the discussion tonight, that my suggestion not be grouped with other since-archived proposals on the basis of redundancy. I am suggesting that either a brief mention or section be included on Barack Obama's main entry, or similar references be removed from articles that serve as paralleling examples. It was suggested elsewhere that the conspiracies compare to long-since refuted fringe theories regarding such things as the JFK assassination and the September 11 attacks and that their validity would share a similar fate. Yet, both conspiracies are documented -- albeit briefly -- on the main Misplaced Pages entries of these subjects. The September 11 attacks article has a small section referencing the theories. The John F. Kennedy assassination has a section referencing conspiracy theories. Even John F. Kennedy's main article mentions conspiracy theories in brief. These are much more publicized 'fringe theories' that have also been scrutinized to a much greater extent than this controversy, but which are given their place amongst the modern historical compilation on Misplaced Pages. In those terms, the question of Obama's citizenship is relevant enough to merit a mention on his main page, if only to redirect, as the other examples do, a reader to a more critical discussion -- and most likely refutation. To treat this case differently is indeed hypocritical, and only supports the claim that it's an example of politically biased censorship. That is what I have an issue with, because I would rather Misplaced Pages not fall under such negative perceptions. These are our Misplaced Pages Commons, and our knowledge-base, and while they should be dedicated first and foremost to the truth, an omission of historical elucidations serves only to deprive it. --Dan Lowe 06:49, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm reluctant at all to respond to a discussion that begins with a claim of hypocrisy, bias, and censorship. Each article stands on its own, so I'm not going into those other articles in any depth. Occasionally, conspiracy theories are relevant and important enough to the subject of an article to deserve a brief mention. Usually not. There are many of them in the case of Obama - he is a Muslim, he is gay, he is a fraud, he didn't really graduate from Harvard or serve on the law review, he is really a citizen of X (name four or five countries). The established editors who have worked on this page have made the same decision as nearly every unbiased respectable source that attempts to summarize Obama's life and career, namely that various fringe conspiracy theories do not add sufficiently to a telling of Obama's life story to be worth a mention in an article of this length. These decisions were not made lightly or in secret - the entire history of the process is transparent and available in the talk and article page archives. Over the course of many months dozens of editors evaluated, debated, and reviewed thousands of mainstream sources. The truth is that these sources do not give much weight to the theories. You can find spotty coverage here or there, but nothing on the order of the other key points we hit in the article. Giving undue weight to minor fringe matters would degrade the quality of the encyclopedia, as would succumbing to the ridiculous accusations of opportunistic partisans off wiki. They have been throwing mud at each other for a living. Now they see Misplaced Pages as a useful target. We hold the line on our standards here. We cover them all, just not on the main page where any mention would be out of all proportion. Wikidemon (talk) 08:29, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

This talk page is not here to rant about other editors or policies. Please take these discussions to the appropriate policy pages. Brothejr (talk) 12:36, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

The article on George W. Bush seems to mention, albeit briefly, at least one controversy that arose only in the context of Bush's campaign for the presidency:

"Critics allege that Bush was favorably treated due to his father's political standing, citing his selection as a pilot and his irregular attendance."

It doesn't seem consistent to insist that all negative/controversial items that arose during Obama's campaign can ONLY be mentioned in articles about his campaign. Am I mistaken? Lawyer2b (talk) 09:39, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

There is no such insistence, and that is not the outcome. However, if something was mostly or entirely a campaign issue that did not significantly affect the person, his career, or even the campaign, it is hard to argue that it is important enough to include in the summary biographical article. On first hearing, Bush's military career seems to fit that but this is the Obama article, not the Bush article. If you want to improve that article I suggest you go there directly and address it as a matter of article quality, not a measure-for-measure attempt to make each politician's article equally positive or negative.Wikidemon (talk) 09:52, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. In Employment Law, the term "disparate impact" has been used to describe policies implemented by employers which, while facially (consciously) do not purport to discriminate, nevertheless end up with "disparate impacts" on various groups. Even if Misplaced Pages does not CONSCIOUSLY practice a liberal bias, in my experience there is a strong argument to be made that "policy" and attitudes such as those being exhibited here result in a "disparate impact" on non-liberal points of views. Lawyer2b (talk) 10:06, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, Reality has a well known liberal bias, but there is not much we can do about that. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:23, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Disparate impact concerns rights of protected classes of minorities to receive commensurate treatment if in comparable situations. There's no equivalent for politicians, programs, and ideologies. Some pan out. Others do not. NPOV means we cover the world as it reveals itself through reliable sources - it does not mean we try to ensure equally positive treatment for every competing politican. Bush is one of the least popular presidents in history, leaving office during a terrible economy, got the US into a disastrous war on a justification that turned out to be faulty, and judged by most historians as one of the worst in history. Clinton was impeached for heaven's sake. There's no rule in Misplaced Pages or most other places that we have to find an equal amount of dirt on Obama just because he is a president too. Wikidemon (talk) 12:31, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

This talk page is not here to rant about other editors or policies. Please take these discussions to the appropriate policy pages. Brothejr (talk) 15:02, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Facts be damned. Mob rule. 'Nuff said. Ynot4tony2 (talk) 14:57, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Context? Guettarda (talk) 14:58, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

This talk page is not here to rant about other editors or policies. Please take these discussions to the appropriate policy pages. Brothejr (talk) 16:26, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Screw You & Your Website Misplaced Pages!! You are a Liberal backed site, therefore do not show any negative information regarding this person's background. I am Boycotting your site since I know now that your site is bias, and will not show how dishonest and repulsive that the current President of the USA actually is!! World Net Daily has dedicated this report; http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=91114 in your honor. Good Luck with your Liberal-Left Wing site you Bums!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.175.111.82 (talk) 16:15, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

How can anyone assert with a straight face that "Editors are NOT currently in dispute concerning points of view expressed in this article"? As long as these "discussions" rage here on the talk page -- specifically concerning the balance/neutrality of the article -- how can the NPOV tag be inappropriate? Opelio (talk) 09:43, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I completely agree. Lawyer2b (talk) 09:50, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Given the recent disruption, and concern over the legitimacy and intent of a number of the edits, this is not a good time to be considering this. Let the dust settle, see who is truly interested in improving the article, and we can consider it then. However, I do not see that a viable argument has been raised that the article has bias problems or that editors who have participated to any significant degree in the article believe there is such an urgent problem.Wikidemon (talk) 09:55, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Could someone please remove this tag? And please don't re-add it. There is little constructive discussion at the moment, and what is here is a mess. If we get past the sudden influx of suspicious editors, and external assaults on Misplaced Pages, and can't resolve this after going through the appropriate discussion and dispute resolution channels, then at least you have an argument for it.Wikidemon (talk) 10:08, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Liberal who uses Conservapedia as a source of humour rather than information, but I have to agree that there are serious POV issues with this article. Not to have a single mention of Ayers or Wright on either this page or the presidential campaign page (although they are on the primary campaign page) seems incredible. As several people have said, Misplaced Pages isn't about truth, it's about verifiability and it's clearly verifiable that both men caused large issues for Obama during both campaigns. The Wright controversy was so big it gets its own article. I would have to say they warrant a brief mention on this page. --Rpeh 10:43, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I think talk of this article being biased because it doesnt mention those issues is wrong, if they were left off the Barack Obama presidential primary campaign, 2008 or Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008 articles then that would be clear bias but its debatable if these issues were so important they deserve a mention on Obamas main article when theres so many sub articles going into more details about these things anyway. However a sentence or two at the most in the campaign section on this article mentioning them (or some of the setbacks during the campaign) would do no harm so i agree it should be included, especially the Jeremiah Wright thing because that issue led to his "race speech" which the media everywhere got obsessed with. But even if its not added i dont think the NPOV tag is justified. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:07, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

If you're married and your spouse says, "There is a marriage problem," there is a marriage problem BY DEFINITION, whether you think there is or not. IF the NPOV tag means that some editors think the article may not conform to the NPOV policy, isn't it BY DEFINITION correctly placed on the article? Lawyer2b (talk) 11:06, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I dont think its biased there for i dont think the tag is needed but if many editors do think the article is biased then the tag should remain. Just because one or two editors claim its biased doesnt justify the tag, people disagree and make claims on many articles.. half the wikipedia articles would need tagging if a small minority disagreeing with something led to a dispute or npov tag. I dont see any reason why there shouldnt be a sentence or two in the campaign section on some of the issues mention above and if people cant provide any decent reasons against it they should be added. If someone then removes it with out explanation, the tag would be justified in my mind. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:14, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

There is no way to tell if many editors think the article is biased. Back in the fall we had a bunch of accounts claiming that the article was a whitewash because it didn't disparage Obama enough. They turned out to be a few editors who had each created multiple fake accounts. The article has been quiet between then and now. Now we have a huge surge of people mostly making the same claims, often uninformed and impertinent. Decent reasons have been given over the course of months, which may all be discussed in due time in an appropriate fashion. Nothing under serious challenge or dispute should be added at this point, particularly not an NPOV tag, without some consensus. Wikidemon (talk) 11:22, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages editors are simply blocking the NPOV tag due to their own bias (check history, the most recent edit was removing the NPOV tag with 0 seconds of discussion). If someone removed all of the criticisms in George W Bush's entry, that the leftists here wouldn't slap NPOV on it immediately. This isn't the first time something like this has happened. Criticism of Michael Moore was pushed to a secondary article, and criticism of Al Gore (including his insane ramblings about 'global warming') has been getting scrubbed since Misplaced Pages has existed. I think you can expect more debate on this subject now that Misplaced Pages's leftist bias has again been exposed. Sniper Fox (talk) 12:56, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that's exactly the problem. Can we please remove the tag again now. And make sure it stays off? Wikidemon (talk) 13:11, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

(after ec) I'm sorry, but I couldn't let this last comment pass without saying something. By referring to left-leaning folks as "leftists", making comments about Al Gore's "insane ramblings", and using WND as a reference you have disqualified yourself from usefully contributing to this discussion by exposing shocking right-wing bias. Decisions about what should and should not be in Misplaced Pages articles should be based on facts verified by a preponderance of reliable sources and carefully weighted to present a neutral point of view (which is not the same as presenting all points of view). The neutrality of this article is only disputed by biased editors seeking to make it fit their own point of view. An examination of the extensive talk page archive will reveal how thoroughly and carefully every aspect of this article has been debated and discussed, and the text is the result of reaching a painstaking consensus on each detail. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:19, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

As I said before, I'm definitely a left-wing editor and I'd still argue that the article is biased - albeit in a way that happens to support my personal opinions. The fact that two highly noteworthy events have been left off the article, both of which had negative connotations for Obama, seems odd. What's worse is that I've not seen any good reason why this should be the case. This debate has descended into "you're a biased lefty" if you want them off and "you're a biased conservative" if you want them on. If there is a genuine reason why neither story should appear - all I'm suggesting is a brief mention in the campaign section - then fine. Until then, it really does appear to be a very biased article that pushes a certain POV. --Rpeh 13:28, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

The two "noteworthy" events you are referring to have both received considerable discussion (please see the talk page archive). In both cases, they are only noteworthy in the context of one of Obama's political campaigns, whereas this article seeks to represent a summary of his entire life. When viewed from a historical perspective, it is clear that these events are not "noteworthy" at all. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:34, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) I'm going to have to agree with Scjessey to a degree here. WND is a little to the right of Goldwater, and a little less reliable than my high school gossip maven. If an article "agrees" with WND, it is a clear indicator the article is strongly biased, and almost certainly contains serious factual errors. KillerChihuahua 13:29, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

(after ec) They're not "left out" - they're in the appropriate articles. Every major politician has so many items that they do not all fit in the main article, and a great deal of discussion and thought goes into which items are in which article of the family of articles about each individual. Sarah Palin's editors discussed at great length before deciding what was appropriate in her main article, and what was appropriate in her candidacy article, and what was appropriate in her mayoralty article, for example. "Not in this article" does not mean "not here on Misplaced Pages". KillerChihuahua 13:35, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Ah. As I was typing that last comment and then being eced twice, Thatcher has added a section about Wright, linking to the controversy article. I think that's pretty much fine now. It just needed a mention. --Rpeh 13:37, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with KillerChihuahua. The World Net Daily and Washington Times are not widely seen to my knowledge as mainstream sources. Their influence is roughly on par with something like Free Republic or The 700 Club, and they aren't widely acknowledged (or even known) by most of America or global audiences. They ought to be weighted and handled on par with similar sources. rootology (C)(T) 13:37, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd certainly agree that the WND doesn't qualify as a mainstream source. That would be akin to using Media Matters, Alternet, or some other left-wing website as a credible source. But I don't agree that the Washington Times falls in this category. I understand that you may not see them as credible -- but, then, plenty of people feel the same way about the New York Times, too. Them feeling that way doesn't make it so. The Washington Times is cited as a ref quite a bit throughout WP. It's a legitimate news outlet with a point-of-view -- which doesn't distinguish it from virtually any other. Signed with a Sn00p. (talk) 16:42, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I'm glad the wiki credibility issues are being brought forth in the mainstream media. The wiki entry for Barack Obama reads like a love letter, while GWB's reads like a HuffPo or DailyKOS entry. There needs to be uniformity, or there will be ZERO credibility. This comment will be deleted in 3...2...1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.12.12.2 (talk) 15:21, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

ROFL - which "mainstream media" are you referring to? Surely not WDN, Drudge or some other fringe website? -- Scjessey (talk) 16:12, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Ummm, I would hardly call Drudge a "fringe" site according to Nielsen ratings: . You may want to check your sources and be open minded a bit instead of letting your right and left wing views obstruct a fair assessment of the current president's praises as well as his several openly discussed controversies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.111.208.119 (talk) 17:58, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't usually bother with the political articles, because they are usually very neutral. Unfortunately, President Obama is a bit of a special case since his political rise and election has been rather meteoric. Scjessey, your analysis would be right if it were not for the fact that, up until now, Obama's 2008 electoral campaign is by far **the** most significant event in his young life. To put a mention of the biggest controversy faced in that time in his life is not bias. WND is not crazy, just decidedly right wing. That does not make it entirely innacurate. Though I am still pretty sure of good faith still being acted upon (especially with the new Wright mention) I think Wikidemon is the most correct here in saying the article should and probably will most likely change some when the hubbub has died down, and the trollers are gone. --XF22B (talk) 15:31, 9 March 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by XF22B (talk • contribs) 15:30, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

But I don't so much think that the sources are the crux of the issue here. Plenty of perfectly mainstream, non-ideological sources for any of these matters can easily be found. I think the bigger issue is what matters belong in what article. And I think an argument can be made that some of these "scandal" issues (such as the Annenberg Challenge and his association with Ayers) primarily belong in some other article. That's not to say that they should be whitewashed altogether from the bio. But neither should they be prominently featured. This seems a fight between one group of people who think these things should be prominent in his bio, and another group of people who think they shouldn't be in the bio at all. I think both are wrong. Signed with a Sn00p. (talk) 16:48, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Clearly a POV or unbalanced tag until the censorship of this article ends. It needs to mention the notable controversies and/or provide wikilinks to those articles. Rev. Wright wasn't a fringe story, it was covered by the mainstream press and was something Obama gave two speeches about. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:05, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Please stop removing the unbalanced or POV tag from the article. Until mention of notable controversies and criticisms are included, this article needs to be fixed. Adding a see also section that links to the notable stories is another possibility. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:18, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but just because a conservative ideologue manufacturers a BS article for a fringe website claiming Misplaced Pages left-wing bias, it doesn't mean Featured Articles should be sprinkled with right-wing propaganda and/or labeled as "unbalanced" (a word redefined by FOX). -- Scjessey (talk) 16:24, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

As mentioned by a couple of other people, the removal of certain content from this article been documented by a news surce, and has been linked to by Matt Drudge, so it's going to get a lot of attention. And yes, it is Obama's supporters that are watchdogging the article. It seems that sourcing is more of a priority, and standards of proof are much higher, when content that is critical of President Obama is posted to Misplaced Pages. If you look at the George W. Bush, there is a section titled Image and Public perception, which gives a rundown of what his critics and supporters have said about him, and has a link to an artical called Criticism of George W. Bush. Obama has a smaller section called "Cultural and political image" which reads as neutral to positive, with a link to a completely separate article called Public image of Barack Obama (which, by the way, is locked) which also reads as neutral to positive. So yes, I think that there might actually be something to this crazy conspiracy theory that Obama's supporters are censoring content on his Misplaced Pages entry.--Drvanthorp (talk) 16:44, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Support We should have a criticism section on our current president. Misplaced Pages's first and formost must have a neutral point of view, not get to the "truth". BTW, i voted for Obama, so i am not some right wing nutjob. Oldag07 (talk) 16:47, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Your vote is irrelevant. That a lunatic fringe of the blogpsphere is up in arms because they can't get their favorite Birther/Marxist conspiracy theories jammed into the Obama article is not notable in the slightest. Don't confuse the reverb of an echo chamber with actual notability/popularity. Tarc (talk) 16:50, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Inasmuch as we are establishing a consensus, everyone's outlook is very much relevant. Rev. Wright, Bill Ayers, and even the recent Stem Cell policy change are controversial and they are very much real controversies. None of those is a fringe theory. There is not a group of 30 people that think Rev. Wright was a factor in the 2008 primaries, he was a factor. Do we give them an entire section? No. But the mentions currently do not give the proper weight to the controversies (Rev. Wright almost lost him the primaries if I recall correctly). Currently all the article says is it made him change churches. Not quite, he was called on to renounce Wright publicly and had to issue a speech that turned out to be very central to overcomming the controversy. The article hardly represents this well, at all. Padillah (talk) 17:09, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Um, no, we're not working to "establishing a consensus" on any of this. We're working on beating the vandals, trolls, and WP:SPA's back with sticks. This is a loosely-coordinated, off-Wiki meat-puppet attack, not an attempt to legitimately contribute to this or related articles. Tarc (talk) 17:14, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages used to be my favorite site. Now it's not. I doubt they care. I don't care about Bush, Obama, the guy Obama beat, the Democrats, or the Republicans. But I do care about bias on this site, and it is very apparent to me that Misplaced Pages is strongly biased towards Obama. THIS president's page is completely devoid of any negative statements. Not even George Washington's page is so positive.--I Use Dial (talk) 17:04, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

It is one thing to maintain a neutral POV, what is going on here is something different, it amounts to a manipulation of the Misplaced Pages rules by the administrators of this page to prevent anything that they view as negative or deleterious to President Obama, under the guise and abuse of the neutral POV rule. If they wish to function as acolytes for Obama, they should take a job with the Obama administration, this is not the appropriate venue for such behavior. And worse it damages the instrument of the Misplaced Pages itself in the process. For better or worse, topics such as Obama's middle name, William Ayers, the Reverend Wright play a role in who Barack Hussein Obama is. To simply discuss these issues in no way creates a non-neutral POV. Frankly the bullying administrators need to go. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.74.33.42 (talk) 17:02, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

This is going to get out of hand, and this isn't a war i want to fight. I got a life to live. However, I am not very happy with the events that happened recently, and I feel expressing that is a responsiblity I must take as an editor. A quick ctrl f search finds the word "critic" twice in the whole article. W, has a whole page. As for the birth certificate, it is no more notable than this quote out of W's page. "Critics allege that Bush was favorably treated due to his father's political standing, citing his selection as a pilot and his irregular attendance." A similar statement on the obama page is all they are asking for. Oldag07 (talk) 17:12, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, "they" can go pound sand, honestly. Just because one president has something critical said of him does not automatically justify the inclusion of other critical statements of other presidents. The Misplaced Pages doesn't have the equivalent of the Fairness Doctrine, y'know. Criticisms are evaluated on their own merits, and judged accordingly. Tarc (talk) 17:18, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

W. Bush had eight years to "gain criticism". Now you want to give Obama the same after barely being in office before any clear results from his presidency will show? Ridiculous.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 17:24, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion, Misplaced Pages editors are simply blocking the NPOV tag due to their own bias (check history, the most recent edit was removing the NPOV tag with 0 seconds of discussion). If someone removed all of the criticisms in George W Bush's entry, that the leftists here wouldn't slap NPOV on it immediately. This isn't the first time something like this has happened. Criticism of Michael Moore was pushed to a secondary article, and criticism of Al Gore (including his theory about 'global warming') has been getting scrubbed since Misplaced Pages has existed. I think you can expect more debate on this subject now that Misplaced Pages's leftist bias has again been exposed. Restored prior delete of my discussion. This is a DISCUSSION page, it's not appropriate to delete someone's comments just because you don't agree with them. Sniper Fox (talk) 17:28, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

If you think there is too much criticism of Bush on his BLP, bring it up at Talk:George W. Bush. Perhaps you should ask the author of this amazing piece of investigative journalism why the editor he refers to (Jerusalem21) has only edited the author's own bio until this time. I couldn't possibly be that Klein manufactured this entire controversy himself, could it? That would mean that all of you avid WND readers (and Drudge's sheep) have been duped by one of your own. Surely not? -- Scjessey (talk) 17:41, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

This section is about one POV tag. Not about the overly long criticisms that have been put on it in the past. that is it. As for the FA arguments, since this guy is a new president, I question whether or not this page should be a FA, based on section 1e of the Misplaced Pages:Featured article criteria. He will do a lot of new stuff. If anything at least a {{Current section}} should be used on this page. Oldag07 (talk) 17:36, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

This talk page is not here to rant about other editors or policies. Please take these discussions to the appropriate policy pages. Brothejr (talk) 16:42, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Barack Obama's entry in Misplaced Pages highlights and underscores Misplaced Pages's Achilles' Heel and greatest weakness: an inability to be objective and fair in its treatment of some people and issues.

As the article below* demonstrates, a handful of Internet bullies advocating a cause or position can abandon fairness and objectivity in putting forth a whitewashed version (note to readers: watch for the negative feedback from this entry to highlight how these bullies operate!). Unfortunately, as a result, we the people need to be on our guard and use a grain of salt as we use Misplaced Pages, since this renders the site unreilable.

• http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=91114 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.77.8.101 (talk) 16:40, 9 March 2009 (UTC)