Revision as of 02:21, 8 November 2005

Previous discussions:

• Archive1 Str1977 18:23, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Archive2 Str1977 19:34, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
• Archive3 Str1977 19:34, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
• Archive4 Str1977 19:34, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Does Fair Use apply to 598 words from the book's introduction?

We can't police the source of the quotation, but we can question if such a long extract here is a violation of the copyright of the book or fair use here. Please let's have a shorter quote. patsw 01:46, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

English translation, please

The characterizations Cornwell makes of Pius XII, summarized below, are contended by many other observers of the latter's papacy.

What is being contended? Who are these anonymous many other observers? If this sentence belongs at all, it belongs after the characterizations have been listed. These observers need names. patsw 01:46, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

What's the point of this article?

Hitler's Pope is a work of biography. What it adds to our knowledge of Pope Pius XII belongs in that biographical article. What's the encyclopedic value of anything else in the book? This article looks merely like a platform for Cornwell's own POV on Pope Pius XII and by extension a platform for Misplaced Pages's editors' POV on Pope Pius XII -- in short a discussion board and not an encyclopedia. patsw 01:46, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

patsw, I don't know how to answer you briefly but I paste this from Robert McClenon as on this page :

I am willing to try to discuss differences of opinion reasonably, without mediation. I will make a few non-negotiable demands that Wikiquette be followed, or I will conclude that we do need mediation or arbitration. First, assume good faith. Do not imply censorship when an NPOV dispute is in progress. Do not accuse anyone of bad faith unless you have irrefutable proof. Second, do not use talk pages as soapboxes. Drop the discussion of canon law, unless it is applicable to a published source. As far as I can tell, the discussion of canon law is really only a discussion of the fact that moral errors were made, and is basically an issue of attributing evil motives rather than error to the dead. Third, cite sources for any claim that is disputed.

In particular, please provide a source for the use of the exact phrase "Hitler's Pope" preceding Cornwell. If you do not provide a source for the published use of that exact phrase before Cornwell, then I will have to delete that reference and leave the article only as a discussion of Cornwell's book.

I hope that this is satisfactory. Robert McClenon 14:43, 21 July 2005 (UTC

I can tell you that I thought it very unsatisfactory indeed . I fear you come in here ,patsw , rather late . I take the quote as disingenuously pernickety self-righteous intentional muddling .

• Non-negotiable should not apply to reason ;

• Recognition of censorship was dependent on irrefutablility within the history ;

• Soapboxing , that's a form of ad hominem;

• Drop- cheek , it was/is applicable to sources ;

• Evil motives- is a statement of POV/ and ad hominem ;

• Source was cited to this interposition, and always ;

• User's decision to confine article to Cornwell was to ignore sources .

Your postion patsw , seems to be coming in along McC lines earlier and here . I myself would indeed put it all under the main Pius XII page , but I have tried and been blocked from doing so by reverts , so , sorry , don't kick at me . Famekeeper 07:43, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm not asking for your editing history or the history your exchanges with other editors, I'm asking "What's the point of this article?" Book-focused articles describe what the book is about, what's the significance of the book in the public eye, and how the book has been received by the peers of the author. This article isn't doing that and as such probably requires a total replacement rather than minor editing. Famekeeper, what's your outline for the content of a book-focused article? Or what's wrong with my outline? patsw 22:39, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I can provide my own POV as to why this article should exist. I assume that Famekeeper will tell me that my opinion is unacceptable and that I am blocking him and so on, but here is my view. Hitler's Pope is not so mucn a biography as a criticism in the framework of a biography. The factual events of the life of Pope Pius XII belong in his biographical article. The usual Misplaced Pages format for biographical articles about people who held high offices (President, Pope) about whom controversies exist is to put the facts in the main biographical article and to summarize the controversies, and to provide another article detailing the controversies at more length. That way, the outline of the life of Pope Pius XII is available for a reader who wishes, for instance, to see the history of the Catholic Church via the biographies of its Popes.

An article such as this one should provide an NPOV summary of Cornwell's POV of Pope Pius XII. It had been my plan to revise this article to provide that. However, to do that, I will have to re-read Cornwell, which I have not done in the past few years, and provide a reasonable summary of what he wrote, and to separate POV from NPOV. I agree that the article as it stands with its neutrality warning is a discussion board. I do think that an article summarizing the book is needed. It is just that this article, as it is, needs a lot of rework, which I have not had time to provide. Robert McClenon 11:21, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

What is your patsw's outline? I agree with your view that the article as written is unsatisfactory and requires either major editing or a rewrite. Robert McClenon 00:03, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Double Action as Regards Grave Sin

McC-I'm still hoping you'd answer that question, if not how you come to the question, what then, you think the answer is ? Perhaps an Opus Dei man could answer ?

As to yrs of today , again is this bad-faith ? You will have seen that Cornwell himself wrote his abbreviation , it was published , and should therefore stand as an abbreviation of him as a source . But no , you want to read the book and somehow do better than Cornwell out of Cornwell.... that is really wierd .

As to allowance of Cornwell, or any body else's conclusions concerning the biography or life of pacelli, well , this is just wierd too, because you know that that will not be allowed . The conclusions of Cornwell and the very many references by historians to what a lay-man would call a stitch-up but what grandly could be called a quid pro quo lie in utter contradiction with the saccharine sanctity of this pontiff . You know very well that the truth is completely denied, evaded , disparaged and hounded . That the level of hypocrisy visible on the present pontiff's page and Pacelli'ds is blood-curdling .

Of course if your aim is to seem reasonable (though the logic is that it would prove entirely unobtainable as a result) you might appear so to those who have not tried to balance the reality . The reality is that no allowance of contrition is forthcoming despite 60 years of historical reference to the suborning of democracy by the Church , with the brok analysis being the most very succinct -WAR .

Stop mekking about McC , and if you have a conscience , use it to help the world . If you are of good faith you will join with me in as you say re-writing the main article to the length dictated by the necessity of truth nothing less . Everything sourced from Brok thru Kenney's Tollet , Shirer, Toland, WBennett , margaret Lambert, Rosenberg , Hafner re his boss , Churchill re his boss .

But you can well see that the contradiction is so vast , the analysis of truth so dangerous , as to sunder all the supposed papal snctity of Pacelli . All of Cornwell that is proved must be referenced to cap all that these other's separately with Mowrer testify concerning the story of 32 -33 .

However as I was not allowed to explain, against all policy , without any original research but purely from the above , this is not just about Pacelli . pacelli was just the clever-dick on the tiller, whilst the sleepcaptain provided the destination . lets have the by-your-lady truth , McC ... which is that this was the Church's battle against Communism at whatever the immoral cost , which is where it would then be relevant to really confine the canons within a short summary-but one that you won't throw back in my face .

So you answer the by-your-lady question about double action first and then we'll talk seriously . otherwise you act just as a provocateur , with no real desire for relation of truth , no wish to see the Church or its human following benefit and regain some respect , no wish to still the injured hearts of the victims who so terribly suffered . Absolutely outrageous of you to be sort-of mediating , sort-of understanding , sort-of shocked, sort-of moral, sort-of believing YOU understand Cornwell better than himself . All because you supect there may be some way in which vanity Fair and Cornwell are traduced by that website. That is to clutch at the last hair of reason not to get real . Stop making by-your-lady excuses to preserve your morality , stop acting as if Str has the right to deny all the above sources I have produced (and Kenney) as I for one am sick of this dishonesty in defence of total christian hypocrisy , which is to have done this deal against the faith of Jesus Christ Almighty . My faith as of a human being will rise up against this immorality until I have no breath more .Famekeeper 13:43, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I am answering McClenon's question(s) on the appropriate page which is Theology of Pope Benedict XVI

Shorten the article

There is an article about Pius XII that covers his biography and his dealings with Geramny. This article should eliminate this information and simply link to the main article. 214.13.4.151 16:01, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Whatever happens, and there is "Wikihistory" reason from editing behaviour for the forking of the subject to this article , the actual historical truth should reign . It does not as yet , but it is inching closer .Famekeeper 08:32, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

I do not understand. Why should this article repeat the biography of Pope Pius XII? Robert McClenon 09:34, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

As far as I can remember, FK's reason for creating this page was to use it as a platform for all his "criticism" of Pius XII which he though should be included in the Pius XII and related pages and which he couldn't because of my opposition to what I call "blackwashing". Of course, he's free to create this page in which Cornwell's POV naturally plays a bigger part. But still, this restricts him to Cornwell and his book. What's not in Cornwell has no place here. Also we cannot lower standards of presentation of POV as POV. It seems that he has trouble accepting these limitations to his intentions. This article needs to be reduced to the gist of Cornwell's book and appraisal of that (including the new counter-Cornwell book). I am prepared to give him or others who have read Cornwell time to this. Str1977 19:29, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

This betrays a regrettable bureaucratic mind-set, not limited to any particular editor, but one I have seen used over and over when deemed useful for squashing facts . As to Str's first point it was he himself , in a seemming dare, who suggested I start the Hitler's Pope article . This is all , like the birds in the field, countable within wikihistory, if anyone cares . As soon as the article was begun , Str began damage control in attempt to indeed limit it to John Cornwell, against the wide common knowledge present on the Allied side since that era. I am particularly irksome to this attempt as I quote source which independantly confirms the Cornwell research . User McC does not understand, as he has not done from the get-go(American ,colloquialism) . This is rather unfortunate . What Str writes above could enable him to do so . This is low level and boring , this particular discussion and possibly only serves to show the wikilimitations as historical tool .

I repeat , Str, please answer the question re KKD't and the secret annexe . Or return to your post justifying earlier complete removal of its secrecy and of its illegality . that would be time better spent. And abandon this strong bureaucratic meddling with history . Cornwell used a common term , not the other way round .Famekeeper 20:03, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

this page was your idea. i only didn't object.

even if cornwell used a common term, that doesn't change anything.

then this article is about the term and the book. it is definetely not about the whole life of pius, apart from his portrayal of the book of that title, and it is most definetely not about parading your conspiracy stories, if they are not included in the book of that title (and they aren't, as far as i am aware of). Str1977 23:30, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Answer necessity for full article on Hitler's Pope with suitable Protest

Any doubts as to the necessity for this article , and it's length are abundantly proved by Str1977's edit (of Pope Pius XII) of 20.06 3 Sptember 2005 . I protest, as I have always done and appeal to the dispassionate , who should have numbered one Robert McClenon .Do not remove this my notice of protest. Famekeeper 20:27, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure what your abbreviation refers to. If it's the annex section on the Reichskonkordat (as I think it is) than it should be there in a short while. Please understand that I don't have seven heads and ten arms. Str1977 20:37, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Mr FK, don't flare up. I was typing after I had accessed the RKKt page and thought this to be the meaning of RKKt but I wanted to "make siccar" whether I was correct. No need to see RED. It was just a short question. You now have enough to read at RKKt. I know was a successful day for me, but this doesn't refer to Wiki stuff. But I won't discuss this here, this is beyond your scope.

Only note, that you are personally attacking not me this time but practically every wikipedian ("Everyone else").

Also, colour highlighting doesn't work if you highlight it all.

Goodnight Str1977 21:44, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

You are beyond belief. I simply dread to think what u have done with the RKKd't , or elsewhere that you chuckle. Just remember contumacy with collaboration,dont answer me again, I will watch you from afar.Good faith is as good faith does, or does not.

I have done nothin with RKKt. Only posted what you asked for (hopefully) on the talk page. NPOV is as NPOV does too. Str1977 22:22, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Statements of praise for Pius XII deleted from article as irrelevant and moved here

Rabbi Dalin summarizes the motiviation of Cornwell and others as follows:

"Very few of the many recent books about Pius XII and the Holocaust are actually about Pius XII and the Holocaust. The liberal best-selling attacks on the pope and the Catholic Church are really an intra-Catholic argument about the direction of the Church today. The Holocaust is simply the biggest club available for liberal Catholics to use against traditional Catholics in their attempt to bash the papacy and thereby to smash traditional Catholic teaching."

Rabbi Dalin includes in his book comments about Pius XII from his Jewish contemporaries that belie the conclusions Cornwell reaches in his tome:

• • Golda Meir

"We share in the grief of humanity …. When fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the voice of the pope was raised for the victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out on the great moral truths above the tumult of daily conflict. We mourn a great servant of peace."

• • Rabbi Louis Finkelstein, chancellor, Jewish Theological Seminary of America

"No keener rebuke has come to Nazism than from Pope Pius XI and his successor, Pope Pius XII."

• • Rabbi Alexander Safran, chief rabbi of Romania

"In the most difficult hours of which we Jews of Romania have passed through, the generous assistance of the Holy See…was decisive and salutary. It is not easy for us to find the right words to express the warmth and consolation we experienced because of the concern of the supreme pontiff, who offered a large sum to relieve the sufferings of deported Jews…. The Jews of Romania will never forget these facts of historic importance."

• • Rabbi Isaac Herzog, chief rabbi of Israel

"The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion, which form the very foundation of true civilization, are doing for our unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of Divine Providence in this world."

• • Moshe Sharett (who later became Israel’s first foreign minister and second prime minister)

"I told that my first duty was to thank him, and through him the Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public for all they had done in the various countries to rescue Jews…. We are deeply grateful to the Catholic Church."

The following additional works are among the many that contradict the evidence that Cornwell cites and the conclusions that Cornwell reaches:

Jimmy Akin, How Pius XII Protected Jews (Catholic Answers, 1979-2005)

. ISBN 0-7391-0906-5. {{cite book}}: Missing or empty |title= (help); Unknown parameter |Author= ignored (|author= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |Publisher= ignored (|publisher= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |Title= ignored (|title= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |Year= ignored (|year= suggested) (help)

Anonymous, Persecution of the Catholic Church in the Third Reich (Pelican Pub Co; February 2003). ISBN 1589801377 (originally published in 1941)

Sr. Margherita Marchione, Pope Pius XII: Architect for Peace (Paulist Press, 2000). ISBN 080913912X

Ronald J. Rychlak, Hitler, the War, and the Pope (Our Sunday Visitor; 2000). ISBN 0879732172

Karl Scholder, The Churches and the Third Reich (London, 1987)

Eugenio Zolli, Before the Dawn (Roman Catholic Books; Reprint edition, February 1997). ISBN 0912141468 (author is the former wartime chief rabbi of Rome who took the name "Eugenio" at his Baptism in honor of Pope Pius XII)

AfD result

This article was nominated for deletion on September 26, 2005. The result of the discussion was keep.

— JIP | Talk 15:35, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Hitler's Pope-necessitates correction

See: ]

I return to this part of the effort to persuade editors towards truer inclusion of history  :

Another point (point 5, if you will) is your "Vatican exchange" section - it needs clarification and editing. This is a really interesting and much more rewarding field for contributing to wiki.

You ,Sir, would not say so if you realised that therein lies a second clear reference to papal secrecy , following the Bruning/Monarchy story. Herein is shown that tendency to evade a paper trail in order to protect the pope from his own actions. The vatican episode does indeed repeat , and I shall revisit it, but really apart from revealing papal secrecy practice , it is more shocking for revealing widerstand attitudes and British 'appeaser' attitudes with the papal vision of a Germany allowed to remain without repentance or ,in fact, democracy . The Pope was no less wrong at this time than the remaining british appeasers , but more wrong because he knew of the Hitlerian anti-semitic reality .

Dear FK, thanks for posting a really interesting section. I hope you don't mind that I straigthened it a bit (nothin really big. There are just some question I'd like to ask:

1) this is a fascinating story, but Kaas is rather a minor character in this. Of course, it should be mentioned here, that he was part of it, but maybe the whole thing would suit better in an entry on the "Ochensepp" Josef Müller, of whom there is much more to say - his work as a lawyer and his post-war career as a politician.

2) I don't understand these sentences:

"It seems the British were keen, as power was still with Chamberlain and Halifax and the later corrected vacillation concerning German demands was evident."

"At any rate the implication is that all involved were prepared to foresee some solution based on sufficient German territorial aggrandisement to placate the German people after the "loss" of their "Adolf Hitler" during wartime."

3) I think the following sentence is too much POV. At least it should be explained what was so fortunate.

Fortunately for Europe, the British policy was to swiftly change once Winston Churchill replaced Neville Chamberlain.

3) And I don't really get the last sentence either, especially after "the views ..."

Monsignor Kaas is reported as alerting the British contact, the Minister to the Holy See, Francis D'Arcy Osborne, the views of Hermann Göring in anti-communist sympathy with the opposition.

Kaas was alerting the British ambassador - about what? How is the sentence after "the views of Göring" connected. And who had anti-communist sympathy And what about the opposition

Please consider these questions. Anyway, I really appreciate this post. Str1977 21:19, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Indeed,I , FK ,never answered these questions brought from Ludwig Kaas' Discussion ], as the questions were answered by the statements themselves, within the language . The editor evidently did not understand the construction .

However I return the epic of dispute centreing on this ghastly subject to precisely this vignette , for the relevance of this ( part of Professor Klemens von Klemperer's analysis in his German resistance Against Hitler ) to the following article , which I consider to be the clearest , fullest , most estimable relation of the actual historical events . KvK is per se dealing with later history , with efforts at opposition to Hitler, which are now adequately recorded , as parties concerned have been naturally quite eager to afford themselves the possible good odour associating with the widerstand .

I have to admit that I was setting a fence up with my inclusion of this the Vatican Exchanges - later episode, in Kaas' life . Now we return to the question of Abraham Lehrer , of the Cologne Synagogue and the Pope Benedict XVI Apostolic Visit , discussed and ,naturally removed, from the BXVI article towards the Pius XII article ( and , illogically removed , as the impertinent Lehrer "question" in fact just as much applies to the Pope Pius XI era ) .

The question was whether the pontiff would now open the Vatican's archives to scrutiny such that history would finally uncover all that therein lies . The history as reported concerning the pontifical role in the Widerstand/ opposition (in briefest description , being the disaffected military ) is relevant because herein lies clear example of specifically verbal involvement designed , as with the Heinrich Bruning /Monarchy dealing, specifically to protect the papacy . Pain-staking effort was made such that the monarchist restoration should not be traceable , so , in fact it is quite likely that should the Lehrer question be accorded, that even then a paucity of documentation would result .

There is dispute that the vatican has already released the archive, but this claim is equally heavily disputed, and Lehrer 's question seems to be the last word : the archive is still as yet closed , meaning that a part is closed , so that effectively documents are held . It could mean that there are no documents , rather than an estimate of many many shelves and rooms-full . But the question was asked by others than Lehrer, specifically by certain accredited , and then disallowed scholastic personalities , given partial access . Partial access has been given to certain periods .

In effect the vatican exchanges I referred to (1939/40 and 1942/43) are documented exterior to the vatican , since the contacts were with the British . The Widerstand side fell into Gestapo hands by 1944 . They have no direct bearing upon the over-all sense of Hitler's Pope , as there is general agreement that the element of approbation and collusion to which the expression relates is considered (possibly wrongly) to relate to purely the period within which Hitler took power (1933) . However the Cornwell analysis seems to have the historical reality in view, which is that the activities precede this year , and closely relate to Pacelli analysis and Pius XI decision-making from 1925 , with then the monarchist push building from 1928 into its failure during the 1930-32 period . I retain my view as expressed above concerning the underlying character of the Vatican Exchanges, seeing little in them of good , and considering their date, very much bad .

See link repeat of above link ] for that which needs to inform the entire WP German and 20th century history . I note with no pleasure that a remarkable dearth of links between all such WP articles would prevent any such clear view of the history becoming apparent to the reader . This remains a WP scandal, and necessitates wide-ranging correction . EffK 02:11, 8 November 2005 (UTC)