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Revision as of 21:20, 20 March 2009 editDream Focus (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers39,002 editsm erasing the long bot information, that appeared long after it was all said and done← Previous edit Revision as of 08:43, 21 March 2009 edit undoJack Merridew (talk | contribs)34,837 edits User:Dream Focus#How bad editors try to delete things: +commentNext edit →
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:::: Deleting 'articles' that don't reasonably meet sound inclusion criteria improves the project. You seem to miss that the ''Evil Deletionist<sup>®</sup> Cabal'' is seeking the improvement of the project. Have you noticed that no one is proposing to delete ], ], or ]? Japanese porn twins, ephemeral dross such as TV shows, and weapons lists for (what?) video games are another matter; much of this sort of stuff amounts to little more than ] damaging the project as a whole. ] 12:47, 20 March 2009 (UTC) :::: Deleting 'articles' that don't reasonably meet sound inclusion criteria improves the project. You seem to miss that the ''Evil Deletionist<sup>®</sup> Cabal'' is seeking the improvement of the project. Have you noticed that no one is proposing to delete ], ], or ]? Japanese porn twins, ephemeral dross such as TV shows, and weapons lists for (what?) video games are another matter; much of this sort of stuff amounts to little more than ] damaging the project as a whole. ] 12:47, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
:::::The content of the article is not relevant. You don't delete something simply because you don't like it. If you don't believe something should be allowed on wikipedia, then change the policy to say no episode list, no porn, etc. Saying sometimes its alright, and sometimes it isn't, is just wrong. A significant number of page views for wikipedia are sex related though, with popular culture getting more than half. I don't recall where they keep the stats though, but it is interesting to see. And you can't improve the project by deleting articles, simply because of some unreasonable guideline, which discriminates against many types of media which simply don't get reviewed at all. I protest the unfairness. ]''' 12:57, 20 March 2009 (UTC) :::::The content of the article is not relevant. You don't delete something simply because you don't like it. If you don't believe something should be allowed on wikipedia, then change the policy to say no episode list, no porn, etc. Saying sometimes its alright, and sometimes it isn't, is just wrong. A significant number of page views for wikipedia are sex related though, with popular culture getting more than half. I don't recall where they keep the stats though, but it is interesting to see. And you can't improve the project by deleting articles, simply because of some unreasonable guideline, which discriminates against many types of media which simply don't get reviewed at all. I protest the unfairness. ]''' 12:57, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
:::::: Deleting content that is not appropriate for inclusion always improves the project; no exceptions. If the goal was to focus on including content that vast numbers of people simply want, we would be all about uploading copyvios off porn sites. This, however, is an encyclopedia, not a porn site or fan site. Misplaced Pages discriminates against content all the time per ]; deal with it. ] 08:43, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
:::: It really depends on the article, to be honest. There can be reasons for sending an article to AfD a number of times. For example, there might be a feeling at the first AfD that the article is capable of becoming notable, and it is therefore kept. However, a year later, if it hasn't improved, it might be felt that the first AfD got it wrong. Or accepted notability might change over time - for example, there is much more community will to delete marginally notable BLPs these days, after many problems in the past. The other problem I think here is that you're not quite grasping the concept of "consensus". Misplaced Pages is not a democracy, and AfDs are not a vote. For example, an AfD with three Keep votes, each of which gives a good policy-based reason to keep, and ten Delete votes which are all "Delete, this isn't notable" might well be closed as Keep and the closing admin would have a good reason for doing so. I've noticed recently that you've stated that articles are saved at AfD "if they've got enough fans" - well, whilst that might be the case sometimes, the number of fans doesn't make a difference if they can't give any other reason that ] for it to be kept. Works both ways. <b>]</b> 12:49, 20 March 2009 (UTC) :::: It really depends on the article, to be honest. There can be reasons for sending an article to AfD a number of times. For example, there might be a feeling at the first AfD that the article is capable of becoming notable, and it is therefore kept. However, a year later, if it hasn't improved, it might be felt that the first AfD got it wrong. Or accepted notability might change over time - for example, there is much more community will to delete marginally notable BLPs these days, after many problems in the past. The other problem I think here is that you're not quite grasping the concept of "consensus". Misplaced Pages is not a democracy, and AfDs are not a vote. For example, an AfD with three Keep votes, each of which gives a good policy-based reason to keep, and ten Delete votes which are all "Delete, this isn't notable" might well be closed as Keep and the closing admin would have a good reason for doing so. I've noticed recently that you've stated that articles are saved at AfD "if they've got enough fans" - well, whilst that might be the case sometimes, the number of fans doesn't make a difference if they can't give any other reason that ] for it to be kept. Works both ways. <b>]</b> 12:49, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
:::::Some episode articles are kept, even without anything to prove them notable, while others for series with less fans around to protest, are deleted. Simple as that. And what is this about renominating something if you thought the AFD got it wrong? Can you recreate an article a year after it was deleted, because you disagree with the AFD? And to clarify, I mean the exact same article, not something that has been changed at all. ]''' 12:57, 20 March 2009 (UTC) :::::Some episode articles are kept, even without anything to prove them notable, while others for series with less fans around to protest, are deleted. Simple as that. And what is this about renominating something if you thought the AFD got it wrong? Can you recreate an article a year after it was deleted, because you disagree with the AFD? And to clarify, I mean the exact same article, not something that has been changed at all. ]''' 12:57, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Revision as of 08:43, 21 March 2009

user:Dream_Focus Dream_Focus

between double brackets, user colon and name

Article names

I notice you were wondering how to change an article's name, or if you should "just create a new article and copy-paste all the content over".

You should never just copy-paste the material over; that screws up the edit history. Rather, you should use "move this page", which means "move this page to a new name".

Okay? DS 22:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

They already had a GI Joe page, they just forgot to link to it anywhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=G.I._Joe_character_list&redirect=no My G.I.Joe Character list was redirected by someone to List of characters in G.I. Joe. Now, that page is gone, redirecting it to another page someone had created earlier, but hadn't linked to from any of the main GiJoe pages for some reason. I don't recall it showing up in the search either.

Oh well. I think that page is just ripped directly from one of the websites I had linked to. Good source of information. I remember seeing it in that format on a page somewhere also.

No complaints though. Going to go update some links I made to link to their page now.

Am I allowed to mention my Game Making and electronic insanity forum?

Am I allowed to mention my Game Making and electronic insanity forum on my wikipedia page? Or would that be considered advertisement? http://s8.invisionfree.com/Game_Maker_forum/index.php?act=idx

Forum Comments

Welcome to Misplaced Pages! I am glad to see you are interested in discussing a topic. However, as a general rule, talk pages such as Jena Six are for discussion related to improving the article, not general discussion about the topic. Thank you. CJ 20:17, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but I wanted to improve the article by discussing what information we should or should not add to it, before going and just doing it, and having people edit it for being too long and having too much information. Of course that was last year, but, whatever. I think once they got the references done to a creditable newspaper investigation, the article turned out rather good, and very informable. Dream Focus (talk) 01:33, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Berkeley Breathed

These edits need to be referenced. Please read Misplaced Pages:BLP WhisperToMe (talk) 02:03, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

As I said in the talk page of that article, you add a "citation needed" tag, if you believe the article needs another thousand references for every single statement in it, or take a few seconds to Google and find one yourself. Anyway, I added in a line, with a reference, just the facts. I do believe anyone could've just read the previous bit someone had put in there, and then look up the Opus comic strip for that day, and read it themselves if they had any doubts about the claim. Dream Focus (talk) 23:30, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Neon Genesis Evangelion RE-TAKE

An article that you have been involved in editing, Neon Genesis Evangelion RE-TAKE, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Neon Genesis Evangelion RE-TAKE. Thank you. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? TomStar81 (Talk) 07:03, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

RE-TAKE AfD

You seem to really be getting into it. I support the effort (in my modest, weary way); but I feel I must warn you so you can be emotionally prepared - based on my 4-5 years on Misplaced Pages, the Re-Take AfD doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of ending in anything but delete. (I will be shocked if it manages to be a merge, or even a redirect.) --Gwern (contribs) 20:56 12 October 2008 (GMT)

I am honestly trying to figure out what the difference is between webcomics which are based on Final Fantasy, and series like Re-Take. Why is one tolerated, and another not? Dream Focus (talk) 07:53, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
More coverage in English, basically. Also, webcomics are slowly becoming more mainstream in the English-speaking world while doujins are still extremely niche. --Gwern (contribs) 00:08 14 October 2008 (GMT)
I was looking over the list of awards for web comics and printed media which made them notable, and noticed the lack of any for doujins. They are the same thing though. Also, isn't it odd that hundreds of people on a website listing all mangas, including doujins, give it a good vote, and tens of thousands hit the creator's website each month, but it only takes four people to say they don't like it, to delete an article about it? Its odd isn't it? With just a small number of people you could defend or delete any article you wanted. And how many people bother to check the list of things up for deletion regularly, or put any article on "watch?"
The Gantz article was worked on by dozens of people over the years, who liked how much information it had, then awhile back one guy decided to mass delete 99% of the article, simple because he thought it too long. I was the only one around to revert and argue with him, no one else posting an opinion, so I asked for a third party bit, and by random chance the two people that went over there agreed with him, based on the fact that they didn't like long articles. Long meaning they don't want a list of all the weapons and equipment found in the series, it not that many things, the rules Gantz enforces, etc. I'm thinking we need a separate wikipedia for people who like detailed information about every aspect of things, and have a set logical set of rules, not something vague left to interpretation and personal bias of a small number of random people who happen by. What do you think? Dream Focus (talk) 01:27, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
I agree completely. TomStar81 (Talk) 20:27, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

policy change

I am sorry that you feel bad that Re-Take is getting deleted; while I personally think it a very bad series, then again, I think the same thing about "Angelic Days" but I am forced to grit my teeth and keep the article on it here: it's not a matter of that I want to push you around or quote rules to my benefit through loopholes (I hate it when people do that): but putting Re-Take here would violate many major rules. The problem is that its unlicensed and unofficial (and you can't really prove that it is "popular"; alright, one of my pet peeves about Re-Take is a think a few people are very hardcore fans about it, but that doesn't mean it has widespread popularity; this doesn't matter though). So if you really want to get it on, you can't just make an article for it: my suggestion would be that you have to bring up for policy debate, "can we include unlicensed fanfiction? and I...guess, that you'd start by going to the "Talk" page of "WikiProject Anime and Manga", and then raising the question there. Look how many other editors on the "Delete" article want to delete it for these reasons; its not a matter of me pushing you, but really, the *current* rules won't allow it. And if its something you really love, your best course would be to try to change the rules. --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici (talk) 14:25, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion. I have just finished posting my suggested rule changes and a rational for them being necessary. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Anime_and_manga#Suggest_policy_change.__Can_we_include_unlicensed_fanfiction.2Fdoujinshi.3F Dream Focus (talk) 16:53, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Notability of Chasing the Sunset

Hello, this is a message from an automated bot. A tag has been placed on Chasing the Sunset, by another Misplaced Pages user, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. The tag claims that it should be speedily deleted because Chasing the Sunset is an article about a certain website, blog, forum, or other web content that does not assert the importance or significance of that web location. Please read our criteria for speedy deletion, particularly item 7 under Articles, as well as notability guidelines for websites. Please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources which verify their content.

To contest the tagging and request that administrators wait before possibly deleting Chasing the Sunset, please affix the template {{hangon}} to the page, and put a note on its talk page. If the article has already been deleted, see the advice and instructions at WP:WMD. Feel free to contact the bot operator if you have any questions about this or any problems with this bot, bearing in mind that this bot is only informing you of the nomination for speedy deletion; it does not perform any nominations or deletions itself. To see the user who deleted the page, click here CSDWarnBot (talk) 20:40, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I messed up on that one. After www.trafficestimate.com failed to give me a reading for that webcomic's site, I went to alexa, and misread the information. I originally stated in the article it had 1.3 million hits in that time period, then erased it when I realized that number is the ranking, meaning there are 1.3 million sites more popular than it apparently, and it only has 800 to a thousand people at the most viewing on any given day. My mistake. If the articles and awards for it found on various sites I've reference aren't notable enough, then I won't bother objecting to its deletion. I really thought it had a lot more viewers than that when I created the wikipedia article about it. Dream Focus (talk) 01:30, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

voltron

this is an earlier version also i would recommend checking the voltron article between 6 and 10 of October

Dwanyewest (talk) 20:56, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Arbcom Candidacy - Questions et al

Hey - I've formatted your discussion and question pages for the Arbcom Election. You might notice that the list of General Questions has also been posted to the Questions page; you'll want to answer those when you get a chance. Beyond that, please ping me with questions - and Good Luck! UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 00:25, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I'll look into that now. Dream Focus (talk) 00:27, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

ArbCom questions

Hi. I'm Ral315, editor of the Misplaced Pages Signpost. We're interviewing all ArbCom candidates for an article this week, and your response is requested.

  1. What positions do you hold (adminship, mediation, etc.), on this or other wikis?
  2. Have you been involved in any arbitration cases? In what capacity?
  3. Why are you running for the Arbitration Committee?
  4. How do you feel the Arbitration Committee has handled cases and other situations over the last year? Can you provide an examples of situations where you feel the Committee handled a situation exceptionally well, and why? Any you feel they handled poorly, and why?
  5. What is your opinion on confidentiality? If evidence is submitted privately to the Committee, would you share it with other parties in the case? Would you make a decision based on confidential information without making it public?
  6. Why do you think users should vote for you?

Please respond on my talk page. We'll probably go to press on Tuesday, but late responses will be added as they're submitted. Thanks, Ral315 (talk) 10:25, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

wikipedia policy about moving information to and then linking to wikis

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Notability_(fiction) under the section titled "A note of caution" shows that when different editors see some things as unencylopedic garbage, while others believe it should remain, its best to just move it over to a wiki and add a link.

Part of it reads:

Editors should also take advantage of non-Misplaced Pages wikis that follow the GFDL that may provide more details about a given fictional work. These can not only be used to augment brief descriptions of fictional topics, or can be used to relocate material that has been deemed unsuitable for Misplaced Pages. Links to such wikis should be placed as an external link to the articles in question.

Yep. That's what it says. So I'm going to do that now. Adding in some links. Dream Focus (talk) 23:14, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

The "garbage" I moved into Total Annihilation: Kingdoms

I would say something regarding AGF, but I totally messed up and merged the material (see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of awards received by Total Annihilation) to the wrong article; it should have been moved to Total Annihilation. For that, I get a second helping of trout! Sorry for the mess-up; I will revert the merge and redo it. MuZemike (talk) 04:12, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

On second thought, you already took care of it, so I will leave as-is. FYI, I would be the last person to "jam garbage" (aka cruft) into an article without good reason, like a merge resulting from an AFD. MuZemike (talk) 04:17, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
The garbage was the list of locations, not the awards. I erased the list of locations, which in fact was garbage, it doubling the size of the article with things you never needed to know in the game or would care about. No problems with the awards being there since that is relevant to the game. But its for TA, not TA: K. Oh well. Dream Focus (talk) 14:03, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
OK. The fact remained that it had to be merged as a result of the recently-closed AFD. I would otherwise very much agree with you that it's unnecessary and excess information. But hey, that's what happens sometimes when users want such information merged just for the sake of inclusion. MuZemike (talk) 14:42, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Xrifle1.gif

Thanks for uploading or contributing to Image:Xrifle1.gif. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Misplaced Pages constitutes fair use. Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale.

If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Peripitus (Talk) 12:18, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

I added in the paperwork, so its fine now. I believe it meets all requirements, as do the rest. Dream Focus (talk) 23:43, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Seasons Greetings

Wishing you the very best for the season. Guettarda (talk) 00:41, 25 December 2008 (UTC)










Thank you Guettarda Dream Focus (talk) 17:55, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Messages

Re this, if you have a personal comment for a specific editor, leave it on their talk page, not the article talk page. I've read and removed it since it had nothing to do with the article and was just a personal message for me. Also, do not use comments to make bad faith remarks as you did here. I did not delete it impulsively, and despite your edit summary I see you did nothing but restore a fairly useless line without an actual source. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 05:31, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

It was not a personal attack against you. Assume good faith. When you deleted the part of the article someone had just added, your stated reason was "source?". As I pointed out on the talk page, it took me a few seconds to look it up on Google, and find that Amazon sold it. And my comment was about something related to the article, and thus had a reason to be on the talk page for that article. And I did not simply "restore a fairly useless line", but in fact something valid to the article itself. You have a history of compulsively deleting things, and then claiming everyone is making personal attacks against you. Dream Focus (talk) 17:52, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Your message was personally directed, not about the article in general. You didn't just restore and said "source found" you specifically attacked me for not having time to go do someone else's work. Nor was the message about the article at all, it was purely you making a comment at me. And your last remark only shows you were not AGFing but looking for an excuse to make a snide remark about me. I do not have a history of "compulsively deleting" and I only note a personal attack when there is one, such as in that statement which is obviously intended to be an insult. I also undid your recent edit as you completely messed up the reference. Amazon.com is the publisher of Amazon.co.jp, NOT Shueisha, nor is it necessary or desirable to shove an IBSN in the middle of the text for a minor work. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 19:43, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
"you specifically attacked me for not having time to go do someone else's work." Someone else's work? You believe you should just delete something, without bothering to check for a source yourself, or tag it. That is something you have done in the past, to the Gantz article, and elsewhere. And if you don't have time to spend three seconds Googling, then you shouldn't have time to edit at all. I am not insulting you, but complaining about your horrible editing practices. Dream Focus (talk) 03:49, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Someone else's work as in proving a work existed, and considering the IPs other edits, it didn't seem particularly plausible. And I realize you have an ax to grind but really, take it elsewhere or get over it. Your hideous amount of bad faith here and claims of "horrible editing practices" are blatantly ridiculous and nothing but unfounded claims. My edits to the Gantz article were largely upheld by the project, as have other clearing out of unsourced stuff that you personally might like, but that doesn't belong here. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 04:08, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
You see nothing wrong with simply deleting something without bothering to check it out for yourself. That is a horrible editing. And now you claim that I'm using "hideous amounts of bad faith" by criticizing what I believe most would agree are in fact horrible editing practices. And most of what you deleted in Gantz, just got put back in various side pages. And what has editor IP 76.66.198.171 ever done which would make you believe his claim wasn't plausible? So much so that you'd just delete it, without bothering to spend three seconds to Google and see for yourself whether the manual existed or not? Dream Focus (talk) 04:24, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
No, it is not horrible editing. That's your personal view, and you're welcome to it, but it is not horrible editing at all. Unverified information that lacked even basic details beyond a claimed ISBN and an attempt to wikify an obviously unnotable book (if it existed) seemed spurious and the IP's only edit to the Gantz realm was to shove a Sci-Fi banner on the page. At most, you could say I was rushing (as, if you check my contribs, you'll see I was leaving at the time), but that was certainly no reason for your unfounded personal remarks, nor your then turning around, restoring, without apparently having 3 seconds yourself to add the reference (funny how that worked), then when I came back and added a valid reference and corrected it, you turned around and tried to mess it up for no other reason that an apparent ignorance in the ways of citations. Most of what was deleted got put on various side pages because of fans who refuse to accept reality and just keep moving it around, and the project concentrating on other series right now. When the project does return to Gantz, most of that stuff will be gone again for good. (and FYI, why do you keep saying to google when I could just go straight to Amazon.co.jp? Why waste steps?). Anyway, this is obviously a pointless conversation as you seem determined to just find reasons to complain about my editing, so enjoy. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 04:38, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
You call it "an obvious unnotable book", despite it being an official manual about the series the article was dedicated to. And yes, I thought Publisher meant the publishing company, but in fact, when using cite web, it lists where the information about the subject was published at. A simple mistake. Unlike you, I have no problems admitting my occasional mistakes. And what project are you referring to? The only reason you were able to erase so much of the Gantz article last time was because no one but me was around to protest, and when I asked for a third party opinion, the two people that stumbled over simply said it was too long, and did not answer my question about the content being valid at all. Now that there are other editors around participating in the Gantz article, I don't think I'd have trouble undoing any mass deleting you tried to pull. Dream Focus (talk) 05:12, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
It is an obviously unnotable book per wikipedia standards. Being an official manual for the series is irrelevant (see WP:BK for book notability guidelines). It is an extremely minor work within the entire franchise/series. And I admit my mistakes, when I actually make them (and do note, again, that I was the one who sourced the claim, not you). The project? The Anime and manga project which oversees it and supported the removal of the bad information, and yes, you would have trouble undoing it. The project supports article clean up and improvement, not glutting articles with inappropriate and excessive plot and in-universe information, as can easily be seen by actually participating in the project and seeing our many other clean up efforts. Maybe if you read up some the anime/manga guidelines, such as the MoS and writing about fiction, you might better understand why the information was removed, but somehow, I think you don't care about those at all, nor do you really seem to actually want Gantz to be a good article, just one that is good for you.-- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 05:16, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
It is notable as pertaining to the Gantz article. And it is notable on its own, since it was written by a notable and bestselling writer, although I don't know how high its own sales figures were. Lot of detailed information in there, which anyone who was interested in the series, and thus the reason they'd come to the wikipedia article about it, would be interesting in knowing about. Too bad they still haven't released an English version yet. And I care about making an article interesting for people who are actually care about the subject, not keeping it short for the occasional skim reader. Dream Focus (talk) 05:29, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
That isn't how Misplaced Pages notability works. Notability is not inherited nor is it notable by being written by the author of Gantz. Anyway, obviously this conversation is done, but thank you for letting me know about your restoring that content elsewhere. Of course, you are already aware that it has now been AfDed as it, again, is not appropriate material for Misplaced Pages, as was explained to you in August. Try to leave the incivility out of the AfD discussion, though, and just let the discussion take place. If your view that this equipment list is appropriate and notable is correct, others will support it without your bringing this argument there. Thanks and have a nice night. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 05:50, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination of List of Gantz equipment

I have nominated List of Gantz equipment, an article that you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Gantz equipment. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 05:26, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Consensus?

Two comments, DF. First of all, this may not yet be a technical violation of WP:3RR, but it's close, and it is a violation of the spirit thereof. You should not have reverted this.

Secondly, you need to get relaxed and become better acquainted with policies. For starters, you need to read WP:CONSENSUS forwards and backwards. To claim that you had "consensus" for reverting Collectonian's revert of you, smacks either of being ill-informed, or of acting in bad faith.

You do yourself no good by taking advantage of my innocent curiosity in this matter in this manner. (If you don't understand why I consider your actions to be "taking advantage" of me, I will be happy to explain at length. I think it's entirely believable that you genuinely don't understand.) I'm sorry about the frustration that you feel, but these actions are not helping you today and they won't help you in the future. Good luck, I'm blowing this town. Unschool 05:17, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Read up a bit. I posted asking her not to delete something I saw as valid, she claimed it was a personal attack, and then went on to nominate the Gantz equipment page be deleted. I discussed things there, sought information elsewhere, and then looked around at other articles up for deletion, posting my opinions. She then posted that I'm following her around attacking her, when in fact it seems to me to be the other way around, she posting after me. Anyway, an administrator has been asked to look into this, and I'm interested to hear their results. I saw no part of the canvasing rule that I violated, and asked for another opinion, as is common when two editors disagree with one another. I was not trying to take advantage of you, and don't know what you mean. Dream Focus (talk) 05:27, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
The thing that bothered me most was this edit summary. You claimed that "consensus" existed that your post was not canvassing. While yes, I agreed with you that it did not appear to be canvassing (and I still do agree on that, by the way), you had no business indicating in your edit summary reverting her that "consensus" existed. I was the only editor who replied to your inquiry. A single editor agreeing with you does not indicate consensus, especially after only an hour or so in the middle of the night (for some of us) has passed. Consensus takes time, and, more importantly, it takes a significant amount of input. I felt that you were taking advantage of me because you were using me to support you in a way far beyond what was justified. That's why I told you to read WP:CONSENSUS. Please learn the ropes, before you accidentally hang yourself with one. Unschool 07:45, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
No one else had posted for hours before you. And I didn't think consensus required numbers. Two to one, is the same as six to one I thought. Anyway, sorry you felt that way. I don't think waiting days will result in any future post on that subject though. Perhaps I should've said, third party says it isn't consensus. That probably would've been the proper word to use. Since when there was an editing conflict before, between just me and her, I asked for a third party intervention. Dream Focus (talk) 14:05, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

List of legit media to determine notability

You've probably seen the comment already, but I accidentally posted it on your user page. I'm sorry if you found the action impolite. But if you'd like to know if something specific is a reliable source, the Reliable Sources Noticeboard could help. ~Itzjustdrama 05:28, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Naw, its fine. I was just hoping someone would make a list of every single news source in Japan, and elsewhere, which I could then check to see if something was notable or not. Manga doesn't get reviewed often in English news sources unfortunately, plus its hard to find the sales figures of anything. Dream Focus (talk) 05:31, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Yea. It's hard looking up notability for manga. There are some sites out there. Have you checked comipress.com or icv2.com? If the manga is licensed in English, I'm sure you can get something there. icv2 has a lot of sales figures if you need them. animenewsnetwork.com also has some good info, although you can't trust everything you see there. If all else fails, check around the good and featured articles. Sorry if I mentioned some you already checked. ~Itzjustdrama 05:39, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/13916.html only shows me sales figures month by month it seems, and its a rather confusing list. Did all of those big name comics sell so poorly that month? That is shocking. Comic book writers and artists usually just have one comic a month they put out. They couldn't pay their staff if their sales were that low. Dream Focus (talk) 14:35, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
I tend to find the lists confusing too. Although I guess the sales are so low because you have to count the comic's graphic novels too. The sales are also based on sales by Diamond US to comic stores. ~Itzjustdrama 20:40, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Also, one should keep in mind that while they are top manga titles, manga is still very much a niche reading market in North America, and that the economy as a whole is weak now, so people have cut back on purchases of "non-essentials" (not that I consider manga that LOL). Some interesting articles that may help both of you understand the numbers and seemingly low sales more: ICv2 Discussing the 2005 manga market, Projected 2009 releases down because of bad market, Publishers Weekly article on the close of Broccoli. The ICv2 guide would likely make some very interesting reading, but gotta pay for it. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 20:51, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Heh, you're so much more informed than I am. ~Itzjustdrama 21:01, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Re:Dream Focus

Uh, no. This is clearly wrong, as the publisher of the website is Amazon, not Shueisha, and it's a website, not a book that's the source you're citing. Your current edits there are disruptive. As for your AfDs, we don't care what is entertaining/fun/nice to look at for our readers in terms of what gets an article and what doesn't. Stuff that doesn't meet our notability guideline is either merged or deleted. If you want to write about whatever you want, then Wikia is the place. As for the Clow Cards AfD, there's three people for merge, one for delete, and a weak keep. The comment at the bottom is a textbook WP:USEFUL and ignored by the closing administrator. Even the weak keep notes that there's a lot of trivial content. Consensus to merge and redirect is thus adamantly clear. Ergo, attempting to dispute this is silly and you're running against the established consensus on the matter. — sephiroth bcr 08:22, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

That one edit I acknowledged my mistake. Publisher means the site it comes from, not the publishing company. That wasn't what this was about. She is trying to make it look like this is all about that, when in fact its about a previous edit, where she erased the information entirely about the manual, claiming she didn't believe it existed. I then restored it, asking her to Google next time before erasing something, or tag it with a notation needed. She then deleted my comment on the talk page saying it was a personal attack, and coming here to post on my user page complaining. As for the Clow Cards, there is no way possible to merge that much information, or even a list of the core 19 cards with a single sentence description, without the main page being too long. But I've given up on that issue, discussing it with others, and listening to them. Now then, was it right for her to delete my comment on the Gantz talk page? Was that in any way possibly an attack against her? Dream Focus (talk) 13:57, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
You added it without a source and she's justified to remove it per WP:V. That an anon added it without a source, and that she asked for a source here is entirely within her purview. In fact, your edit summary here was far more incivil. As for the removal of the comment on the talk page, it was appropriate. She noted that you should put the comment on her talk page, as it was directed solely at her and thus was a more appropriate location. As for the Clow Cards issue, all the material does not need to be merged; as the majority of it is extraneous plot summary, it fails WP:NOT#INFO and simply isn't appropriate for inclusion, especially because the majority of the cards are one-episode deals with no significant information past that. To cover them in such detail is giving them inappropriate undue weight.
And in any case, directly telling another editor to subvert an ungoing AfD discussion by splitting a list of characters out and encouraging them to edit war is not constructive. Further attempts to do so will be viewed as disruptive. — sephiroth bcr 09:34, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
You can not erase something like that, without checking first. That's just ridiculous. If you needed a reference for every single sentence, then 99% of all articles would be erased. Just tag it with a citation needed, or spend three seconds googling. See? http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Gantz&diff=264407249&oldid=264386867
As for this subvert nonsense, I said if you disagree with an edit, you can undo it. She seems to admitted her mistake after some discussion on her user page, and restored some of the character information she had erased. You don't just wipe out a large section if you don't like it, but instead state what you believe is wrong with it, and what should be changed. And the AFD thing has the majority of people saying keep, so it'll be kept. I'm not trying to subvert it. If she erased the character information for having too much detail, and thus being too long, then you can make a separate character page for it, as others do. Obviously you wouldn't bother if the article had a chance of being deleted. Dream Focus (talk) 16:04, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
That seems to be part of the problem here. You are confusing "too detailed" with "too long" which is not the same thing at all. Too detailed means it has too much excessive and unnecessary plot detail that doesn't belong on Misplaced Pages period, not in the main article, not in sub articles. Again, I point you to WP:WAF, WP:PLOT, and WP:SUMMARY. Obviously that article is not "too long" in any way shape for form. Its barely above a stub and certainly not anywhere near the suggested size limit of an article. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 16:11, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Yes, originally I was thinking it was because of the length, not the content, when I made the originally suggestion. You still should've just tagged it, instead of wide spread deletion. Now that you are here, please go here, and tell me your honest opinion. Does this make any sense at all, or is someone out to get me? Dream Focus (talk) 16:19, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
When cleaning up issues in an article, it is cleaned. Discussion isn't always required unless someone actually disagrees with it. It is a stub article (presuming you mean RH), and the clean up is appropriate and something many project members do as part of our on-going and never ending effort to improve articles to Misplaced Pages standards. The writer disagreed, we discussed, and came to a suitable compromise (and no, it wasn't that "I admitted I was wrong", I just decided it was fine to compromise here if the info was cleaned up and to avoid the issue of a bad and unnecessary split). And yes, the edit makes sense to me. That is an Featured List (FL), so you can be sure it has been edited by experienced copyeditors who are well versed in appropriate grammar and tonal issues. FL means it is the best of the best among lists, and represents the highest quality of articles we have. I.E. its completely sourced with professionally written prosed and follows all relevant Misplaced Pages guidelines. Also, as Sephiroth BCR is one of the most prolific featured list editor and an FL director (right title?), he is knowledgeable enough to discern what is and is not appropriate wording in an FL level list. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 16:43, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
I reverted your edit because the level of prose you were using was frankly horrible. Just an example: "Reika convinces most of them they just stay safe and not get involved." Aside from not making any sense, it's very poor grammar. You're trying to fix an item of featured content in any case. To be honest, it was detracting from the quality of the list, which is supposed to be a representation of Misplaced Pages's best work hence why I told you to go to the talk page, where people familiar with the series could correct whatever you thought incorrect with the plot summary while still maintaining a high level of prose. And per Collectonian, I am quite the prolific FL writer and am the FLRC director, so I know what I'm talking about, thanks. — sephiroth bcr 07:11, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
I find that hilarious, since I was the one that corrected so much bad grammar on that page previously, it written by someone who didn't know English as their first language. And yes, it should read Reika convinces most of them they should just stay safe and not get involved. And the plot summary does have problems with it. I'm discussing that on that talk page now though. And the Misplaced Pages's finest work is a page with summaries for a series that has naked large breasted teenage girls, sex, and plenty of blood and gore everywhere? Plus one kid shot up his entire class for bullying him. LOL! Because this is what the wikipedia is about folks. Forget the educational content normal encyclopedia's brag about, and focus on the entertainment side. Surely something to brag about. ;) Dream Focus (talk) 07:19, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Someone who is capable of writing a sentence as bad as the one described above doesn't have the right to criticize anyone's prose or think that it's funny. My six year-old cousin could write a more coherent sentence than that. Part of the charm of Misplaced Pages is that our best work can be on series like that in any case. We don't care what the subject is. It's our job to cover them in an encyclopedic manner. Take your "educational content" crap out the door, thanks. If you don't like the material, you're free to not edit. — sephiroth bcr 07:40, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Main Page pics

Hello, Dream Focus. You have new messages at Talk:Main Page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

§hep 02:09, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Regarding WP:CREATIVE and WP:ENTERTAINER

Regarding your response to me in Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Mayu Sakai: No, WP:ENTERTAINER does not apply -- if you look at the beginning of WP:CREATIVE, it explicitly says that it is the guideline to apply to authors and artists. WP:ENTERTAINER is for actors and other performers (though not musicians, as they're covered by WP:MUSIC). —Quasirandom (talk) 01:59, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually it applies to comedians and opinion makers as well. I believe the manga artist qualifies as that. Dream Focus (talk) 02:13, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
Yes, but a manga artist is an author and artist, which is what WP:CREATIVE explicitly is for, so that applies. This has been the consensus in many previous AfDs without controversy. —Quasirandom (talk) 18:34, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
I don't recall it ever coming up before, nor would I care if the small number of people around that day, agreed with something or not, while the majority just decided not to argue. If someone fits in more than one category, then they can be made notable by the set of rules in any of those categories. This is how it is for others who fit more than one category. Unless you find a specific policy saying otherwise, that's what I'll go by. Remember, consensus means the perceived opinions of whatever small number of people were around at that time, who decided to post their opinions, and is that by itself does not become official wikipedia policy. Dream Focus (talk) 18:40, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
True enough. But it's also true that WP:CREATIVE has been cited as the relevant guideline in many mangaka AfD discussions without anyone batting an eye or disagreeing, and silence did equal consent. —Quasirandom (talk) 21:44, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Re: Deletionists

Yeah yeah, everyone knows this. It won't help though. As I've said before, Misplaced Pages's community is controlled by some hardcore shut-in nerds with nothing better to do than circlejerk to their own shared ideal of a what an un-scholarly online encyclopedia website should be. The best thing to do is just leave, ignore it and let them make a sad attempt at turning this place into Encarta. I only come check back at this place because I'm some sort of masochist and/or I have a morbid curiosity to know just how pathetic and rigid people can be. - Norse Am Legend (talk) 20:53, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Personal attacks

Your personal attacks against Collectonian are getting unacceptable. First, to clear the air, I could care less what inclusion philosophy you have. I certainly don't agree with it, and think it's ludicrous and illogical, but you're free to express it at AfDs to your heart's desire. I will never simply dismiss you as a contributor as a result of your inclusion philosophy. That said, tying your posts with clear personal attacks against Collectonian is unacceptable. Because she states that she is a deletionist is no reason to attempt to insert an ad hominem into your !vote that not only has nothing to do with the issues brought up at the AfD, but is simply a low blow at another editor that deeply misrepresents her inclusion philosophy. It's perfectly fine for you to disagree with her ideas, but the moment you go from there into an attack on her as a person, you're passed the line. Also, this serves no purpose other than to be disruptive. What on earth are you going to do with such information? Use it for more ad hominem attacks? Consider this a warning. Further personal attacks may result in blocks. Simply cease with the personal attacks on Collectonian and this will never become a problem in the future. — sephiroth bcr 15:18, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

He asked her why she was nominating so many things for deletion, and I mentioned the reason why. She has stated she is a deletionist, that her thing. Dream Focus (talk) 17:13, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
As for the wikiquette thing, I noted she was involved in a conflict with someone else from the manga discussion, so I went there, and pointed out a lot of people have problems with her behavior, she doing things that upset a lot of editors and draw them into conflict. Anyway, doesn't matter now. And I only voted Keep on manga articles that were published in the most influential magazine in the manga industry Jump comics, stating my reason why each time, it the same reason for all of those, and didn't vote on the rest of those nominated for deletion. I did not just go through and vote Keep on everything she was trying to delete, as some have suggested. And I didn't just start going there to taunt her, I having visited the AFD pages off and on for months now. Dream Focus (talk) 19:05, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to make this is simple. Stop interacting with Collectonian. What on earth is your point in responding to her WQ alert? Not only do you not even respond to the substance of her comment, your immediate response is to attack her deletion philosophy, again, as you do in AfDs still. As I outlined above, her deletion philosophy makes absolutely no difference whatsoever in AfDs. Concentrate on the article and not the user. If you can't do this, then I might have to resort to a ban between both of you from interfering with one another, which I don't want to do, as I assume that you're mature enough to stop this behavior. Go write or expand an article. There must be things you're interested in writing, else you wouldn't be here. Practically stalking another user and complaining about their deletion philosophy can't be the reason. And do note that I'm trying to be cooperative here. You go a long way by respecting people's arguments (assuming they're not hopelessly inane) and addressing their substance, not the person. Should this happen again, I'm simply going to take a harder line on this, which again, I don't want to do. — sephiroth bcr 10:20, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I responded because I felt she falsely accusing someone of something. And I'm trying to work on the same manga articles she is in, almost always manga related. At the moment I'm trying to figure out why a vote for Merge on the AFD for Akane-chan_Overdrive, ends up with her refusing to allow any of the information to be merged in. http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Mizuki_Kawashita#The_debate_was_closed_on_06_February_2009_with_a_consensus_to_merge My original comments you see there, were posted on someone user page, he deciding to copy them over to that article's talk page, and we got started again. I posted on the merge article to ask about the rules of the merging process, and was told to go to dispute resolution, so I'll end up in conflict her once again I'll suppose. Since I have your attention, can you look into the Merge issue, and tell me your opinion? Is she violating any rules? I enjoy manga, and can't be expected to ignore all manga discussion simple because of one editor. Dream Focus (talk) 14:35, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
You're responding because you're following her contributions, which is an unhealthy thing to do and is completely unnecessary. It's perfectly possible for you to distance yourself from her. As for the merge, it's completely appropriate. A "merge" result in an AfD does not mean merge everything. It means merge the information per its necessary due coverage. There's no need for a merge of the entire infobox and other content; a mere mention in the bibliography, and should the article be expanded to cover her writing history, a brief synopsis of the plot in the body of the article. As this hasn't materialized, nothing is necessary for a merge. This is a typical mistake by a new user, but your excessive forum shopping is disruptive. And in any case, I'm not telling you to avoid all manga. I'm telling you to go add content somewhere to a manga you enjoy. I'm sure you can find one that Collectonian doesn't edit, and if you're actually trying to improve the article, I'm sure there will be no conflict. If your edits are detrimental to the article and get reverted, it's not a sign that someone doesn't like you; it's a sign that your edits have flaws that you need to address. If you're doing nothing but simply reverting back and treating it personally, then you're not going to go far as a contributor. — sephiroth bcr 08:38, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Akane-chan Overdrive

The debate for Akane-chan Overdrive was closed by MBisanz on 06 February 2009 with a consensus to merge. It says merge, it doesn't say redirect, which is all Farix did, he didn't merge a damn thing. He is working in contravention of a posted vote, to further his ends when he blanked the page before the vote. The vote says we don't have to merge everything, but he didn't do anything, and reverted my actual merger which was the stated outcome of the vote. Now this is a WP:POINT violation, done in WP:bad faith. Please have a look. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 13:27, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

They did that before. Merge is the same as delete for them, they just don't call it delete, thus perhaps getting votes from people that would otherwise say Keep. The only information that will be shown is what was already there, which is the name of the series. And the edit was done at 02:21, 6 February 2009, which is the same time as the end of the AFD, it saying to merge. It is rather arrogant of him to have to tried to skip the AFD process altogether, and do that on his own before hand. You were right to protest. You could contact those who voted for merge, and ask if what they would've voted for if they only had the choice of Keep or Delete, and see if that matters. If enough of them say they'd change their vote, then you can ask for the article to be reviewed, there a link to that at the end of the AFD discussion. Three of them I know will want it deleted anyway, since that's what they do all day, but the others I'm not sure about. And you might want to go to www.wikia.com and see if there is a wiki for everything featured in Jump, and if not you can create one. I'll help you with it if you want. Then in the writer's page, you are allowed to link to the wiki, and that'll provide people with information who want to know more about the series. Wikia is owned by wikipedia, but allows and encourages you to add in as much information as you want. Check out what I did with the Gantz wiki. http://gantz.wikia.com/Gantz_Wiki You can help people get the information they want, without worrying about any misguided people trying to delete things, because they believe they are somehow making the wikipedia better by eliminating articles people find useful and interesting. Dream Focus (talk) 15:28, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

User page

You know, 'the wikipedia' doesn't own Wikia in any sense. --Gwern (contribs) 15:54 8 February 2009 (GMT)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikia Same guy who founded and runs wikipedia founded it, and profits from it. Dream Focus (talk) 16:06, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Reverts

Other people have reverted your edits as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Tom_Jenkins&diff=next&oldid=268332187 In fact, you have a history of bad edits. http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:128.243.253.111#Final_warning And why not register a name instead of using the IP address? It will prevent you from being confused with others who might share the same IP address. Dream Focus (talk) 00:35, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

That's got nothing to do with the particular edit that was reverted. Yes, this is a shared IP address and a lot of the edits can be nonsense, but my edits should be evaluated on their individual constructiveness, not reverted on assumptions. --128.243.253.111 (talk) 08:00, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Colors in name text

Howdy; came here after reading your comment on Talk:Mason Remey mostly out of curiosity over who you be, and I noticed your 'Color text in names' section on your Userpage. I went through a similar search for info on that a while back, and thought I'd share what I discovered on it. In your preferences you can create a raw signature that is used every time you do the four tildes signature thingy. Go into your preference, check off raw signature and create one like this (look at the code by hitting Edit: DREAMFocus

BTW, thanks for contributing to the discussion; the page is sorely lacking impartial opinions. Have fun. Disarray 03:43, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! And yeah, the most active people people are the deletionist, who gang up and drive away everyone else in frustration. Dream Focus 15:19, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Could you not get the name working? I see you tried; it doesn't work just checking the box and pasting the code? I sorted it out in the WP:SANDBOX, and it works there. See: DREAMFocus. Will it work if you don't check the raw signature box? I think it works as a signature still, but doesn't show the (talk) and (contribs) thing; but if you click on that colored name I just posted it takes you to your userpage, so I know it's close. I just tried this one which removes the Bold from the code; will it work: DREAMFocus . I know if the code isn't exactly right it won't accept it, but it's so close. Disarray 20:26, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
It didn't work. I used the other method though, and that worked fine. My name now appears deep blue. Dream Focus 01:49, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
And now its multicolored. It loads up for everyone, doesn't it? Dream Focus 01:52, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Looking good! I see what you had to do. I didn't realize the span code was necessary just for font colors. That makes sense though. You can also change to different fonts too, like cursive etc by using face="cursive", see: Dream Focus. The only thing I might suggest is to use orange instead of yellow on the letter "a", only because it's so bright it's hard to see. I changed it in my example so you could see the difference. And this is the same w/ bold added to it: Dream Focus. Have fun. Disarray 02:23, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Ack! I tried copying the Dream Focus one, but I can't get half way through it. There is a limit to how long it can be when something is entered in. And I was thinking the same thing about the yellow. I'll change that one to orange at least. Dream Focus 02:48, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Dream Focus 02:51, 15 February 2009 (UTC) HA HA! It works. Just had to put all the bold together, and I had room then. Bold open at the start, then at the end, and nowhere else, fit just fine. Thanks a lot! You've been great help. Dream Focus 02:51, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

That's awesome. I had to play with it one more time in the sandbox just cuz I needed to figure out if it could be done. You can change the font style by adding font face=cursive at the beginning, and /font at the end. You can also get rid of all the /span's between every single letter, and just have one at the end which saves space. See:Dream Focus. Or how about font face=Alba Super: Dream Focus. It'll do just about any font style that MS Word has. Cool huh? I've got to stop reading all this code now; I'm getting a migraine. Have fun. Disarray 09:09, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Alternative to notability

Hello! I am working on an objective alternate to notability in my userspace. Please read User:A Nobody/Inclusion guidelines and offer any suggestions on its talk page, which I will consider for revision purposes. If you do not do so, no worries, but if you wish to help, it is appreciated. Best, --A Nobody 01:43, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Sara Wakatsuki

I saw you removed the prod with claims that there's a list of things she's has done. Would you mind actually adding them to the article to help establish her notability? I mean, it doesn't do an article much good to claim the existence of notable credits and then just walk away. Thanks!  Mbinebri  18:35, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

You click on the link to Anime News Network for one, then Google to see the rest. It would've been faster for you to Google for the person, than to nominate it for a speedy delete. Misplaced Pages policy is to look for it yourself, before nominating it. I added an external link that counts as notable, so that prevents deletion. If you want anything added to the page, do it yourself, or leave it around long enough and someone else will get around to it. Dream Focus 18:44, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
I nominated it for a speedy delete, did I? That's funny, because it looks to me like I used a prod - a prod stating she has no IMDb or FMD page, which would take a Google search to determine. What's also funny is that my previous Google search turned up nothing but one credit (as the Anime News Network site you added verifies) - and on some sites, zero - which is why I nominated the article for deletion. But you contest the deletion saying she has multiple credits. Are you willing to state them? Obviously not, which makes me doubt she has anything else. One credit = fails WP:ENTERTAINER. Did you know that? Perhaps it is you who needs to be reminded of Wiki policy.  Mbinebri  19:23, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
On the first page of Google results when I search for her name, I see her album mentioned, as well as a television appearance. Checking the Japanese wikipedia for her name, I see she's done other things. Before nominating something for deletion, its best to Google their name between quotation marks, and look through the first few links. And remember, if they are only famous for things in another country, none of which has officially been released in English yet, you aren't likely to find them listed on IMDB. Dream Focus 20:58, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
I haven't checked the reliability of the google sources. But if you claim they are reliable add them. I found a translation of her old stage name: Miya Zawaarisa. This might help find some info. ~Itzjustdrama 21:05, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
I see her singing her song on YouTube, and I found the audition she did for the extremely popular magazine contest in Japan that she won, plus I found albums for sale with her name on them. Two are music, the other I think is just live action drama. Not sure. Anyway, I went ahead and added some things. Dream Focus 21:28, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Youtube doesn't help verify the album exists. So I'll go search for something verifying the album exists. ~Itzjustdrama 22:06, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Oh, I found a site that sells them on the first page of Google hits. Other things make her notable, this just additional information about her. Not sure where to look to find trustworthy sales figures for Japanese albums. Dream Focus 22:07, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

February 2009

Please do not add copyrighted material to Misplaced Pages without permission from the copyright holder, as you did to Mayu Sakai. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions will be deleted. You may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences. Misplaced Pages takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. Since you "found a source" that means you knew it was copyvio, so giving you the warning for adding it back anyway. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 18:58, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Your reason for deleting it wasn't because it was copyrighted, it was because you said it was unsourced. If its copyrighted, then yes, we should delete it, but not because of the reason stated. Dream Focus 19:00, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Just because I listed one reason doesn't mean it was the only one. If you'd quit blindly reverting me just because its me, maybe you'd have realized it was blatantly obvious that is stolen from another site without having to specifically state so. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 19:04, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Honestly I didn't bother reading it. I just glanced at the first sentence, saw your reason for the chunk deletion was "Sources" and reverted it, since "sources" is not a reason to be deleting stuff. Dream Focus 19:22, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

WP:NPA

"Don't try to reason with them, they don't like using the reasoning part of their brain.". That's a clear personal attack. I would've only deleted that sentence, but it made the rest of the paragraph meaningless, which is why I removed the whole thing. Black Kite 19:25, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

You have different parts of your brain. Instead of using their reasoning skills to determine if something should remain, some prefer to ignore everything other than the policy rules. That is a fact, not an insult. An example of this would be the case where a woman couldn't move her car, since after a storm a tree had blown down atop of it. Someone then gave her a parking ticket for being there past hours. According to the rules, she shouldn't have been parked there at night, and thus was ticked. Have you honestly never met anyone like that before in your life? I mention above that bit, about how they don't think its notable if its on the bestseller's list, because the rules state you have to be mentioned in a newspaper review. That's the thought of people I am complaining about, they unable to or simply not wishing to use the reasoning parts of their brains. Dream Focus 19:31, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
(refactor) Not a great analogy, to be honest. Perhaps others would argue that such policies are there for a reason. Is it too much to ask that you alter that particular sentence? Black Kite 19:33, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
I replaced it with something else to get the point across better. I think it came out much better. Next time please discuss before editing someone's user page though. And I welcome and encourage all discussion about the content of it here, on my talk page. Please share your opinion of the content. Dream Focus 19:41, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Made a minor tweak. Can we leave it at that please? Black Kite 19:44, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Fine. Less scientific, but less likely to be misinterpreted I suppose. No need for me to put up a schematic of the human brain, and point out exactly what part of them is not developed properly, and how this means they all suck at math and all logic solving problems. Can't "think outside the box", as they say. Dream Focus 20:05, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Dream, remove the insult, called "refactoring", remove your defense of the insult here, and apologize to Black Kite. >>>It is in your best interest to do this.<<< Give me permission and I will delete all of the insults, so you don't miss one. Then you can apologize profusely. Ikip (talk) 10:31, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Refactoring? Me and Black Kite worked out the problem with the discussion above, I not wording things properly, there some misunderstanding. Dream Focus 10:58, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Merge discussion at Talk:Tom Tucker (Family Guy)

I've opened a merge discussion at the above-mentioned location. Please consider participating if you are interested. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 20:33, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Welcome to the Article Rescue Squadron!

WELCOME from a Article Rescue Squad member

Welcome to Article Rescue Squadron Dream Focus, a dynamic list of articles needing to be rescued, which changes with new updates, can be found here:

Articles tagged for deletion and rescue
Category Articles tagged for deletion and rescue not found

I look forward to working with you in the future. Ikip (talk) 10:35, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Merge straw poll

Heads up

RE: Wikipedia_talk:User_page#User:Dream_Focus

A prominent editor who deletes a lot of material from Misplaced Pages has your own user page in her sights, guess what her one and only solution is?

She will be stopping by to say hello soon, since I accidently posted this on her page first. :( Ikip (talk) 00:46, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

you seem to have some pretty prominent editors who delete a lot of material from Misplaced Pages on your talk page, so you must be doing something right. Ikip (talk) 00:50, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Deletion review for YouTube cat abuse incident

An editor has asked for a deletion review of YouTube cat abuse incident. Since you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedy-deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review. WikiScrubber (talk) 21:01, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I voted to keep. And for the deletion review I voted to restore it. It wasn't just a regular news item, this one had an important and notable event worthy of an article. Dream Focus 00:58, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:ZELDA OCARINA OF TIME 2.jpg

Thanks for uploading File:ZELDA OCARINA OF TIME 2.jpg. You've indicated that the image is being used under a claim of fair use, but you have not provided an adequate explanation for why it meets Misplaced Pages's requirements for such images. In particular, for each page the image is used on, the image must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Can you please check

  • That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for each article the image is used in.
  • That every article it is used on is linked to from its description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Misplaced Pages:Media copyright questions. --FairuseBot (talk) 08:03, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Fixed. I had it listed for The Legend of Zelda instead of The Legend of Zelda (series). Dream Focus 09:45, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

link wars

i agree with your point of view on wiki links, seems to me it's just another form of edit wars--Legeres (talk) 19:30, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination of SDF-1 Macross

SDF-1 Macross has been nominated for deletion and you were involved in a previous AfD about a different article involving the same cartoon series. You are invited to comment on the discussion at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/SDF-1 Macross. Thank you.--Sloane (talk) 00:40, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Dog poop girl

"it was a historical and noteworthy event"? Someone's dog shitting on a subway train was a historical event? Please have a think about that concept. (Now you've had a think about it, have a look at the points on the DRV - whilst there's no problem with the event being mentioned in Internet vigilantism, it's not notable outside that context, with no sources that discuss it outside that context). Thanks, Black Kite 22:44, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

It caused a large number of people to go online, and publicly shame someone for their actions. The cultural affect is that no one else would dare do the same thing, fearing the same response. That in itself is notable. And didn't most people say Keep? The consensus of the editors discussing this, not your own personal opinion, is what matters. Don't play God, and do whatever you want, ignoring the opinions of everyone else. That isn't what administrators are suppose to do, otherwise the AFD wouldn't existed at all. Dream Focus 22:55, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
You hit the nail right on the head - the single notable thing about the event is the cultural effect ... which is discussed in Internet vigilantism, which is where the information currently is. And that's exactly what administrators are supposed to do. Black Kite 23:17, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


History of quaternions

Hey there - the page is still being rewritten - as you have shown such an interest in it, why not jump in and give a hand improving the article? pablohablo. 23:09, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Because I don't know a thing about quaternions. But I don't like people moving against consensus and trying to delete something the overwhelming majority of people said to keep, thus the reason I was protesting before. Dream Focus 23:25, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
So what exactly was deleted? pablohablo. 23:27, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
Everything. One editor stated during the article for deletion discussion, after most people said keep, that it didn't matter what the rest voted, he'd delete it anyway. And that's what he did. After much debate, any many people speaking out on this, the article was allowed to stay. history of it starting at March 4th, and you can see at least 6 times when it was deleted, and then reverted, until finally a stub was placed there and people worked on it a bit. If the overwhelmingly majority of editors vote to keep something, believing it has the right to exists as an article, and by consensus the closing editor says keep, then an article should be kept. Dream Focus 23:31, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
Oh right. But the article has been (is being) rewritten, and bears little resemblance now to the article you're referring to that contained "valid information". So has any of that valid information been lost? pablohablo. 23:35, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
It has the exact same information. I just checked the history and compared it. All historical bits are kept, which is quite valid for this article. As for the rest, if some believe that part belongs elsewhere, so be it. Just no sense in deleting an entire article, when the topic is perfectly valid. Dream Focus 23:44, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
Well you are certainly right about not knowing anything about quaternions. pablohablo. 23:49, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Welcome to ARS!

Lifebuoy

Hi, Dream Focus, welcome to the Article Rescue Squadron WikiProject! We are a growing community of Misplaced Pages editors dedicated to identifying and rescuing articles and content that have been nominated for deletion. Every day hundreds of articles are deleted, many rightfully so. But many concern notable subjects and are poorly written, ergo fixable, and should not be deleted. We try to help these articles and content to quickly improve and address the concerns of why they are proposed for deletion. This covers a lot of ground and your help is appreciated!

Some points that may be helpful:
  • WikiProject Article rescue squadron's (ARS) main aim is to help improve Misplaced Pages articles and content. If someone seeks help, please try to assist if you are able. Likewise feel free to ask for help, advice and clarification.
  • Sometimes we are asked to help rescue articles by people new to our notability and sourcing policies. If the article is not fixable we can help explain why and offer alternatives. Sometimes editors who are new to Misplaced Pages may perceive the deletion of "their" article as discouraging. Encourage civility and maybe even {{welcome}} them if they have only been templated with deletion messages.
  • The Articles for deletion (AfD) discussion is where the concerns regarding each article are brought up and addressed. To be an effective member of the project you need to know how AfD works as well as how to improve articles. Introduction to deletion process gives a good overview and some good advice for newcomers to deletion.
  • Our primary work is improving Misplaced Pages articles and content. A more dynamic list with article links and descriptions are located at our rescue list.
  • If you have another language besides English, please consider adding yourself to the list of translators available. Articles and sources that use non-English languages often need translation for those of us who cannot translate for ourselves.
  • Many important discussions take place on the project's main discussion page; it is recommended that you watchlist it.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask on the talk page, and we will be happy to help you.

And once again — Welcome! ~~~~


March 2009

Please assume good faith in your dealings with other editors. Assume that they are here to improve rather than harm Misplaced Pages. --neon white talk 22:56, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

in regards Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/E-Mail Letter

Did you have a look at Email, an existing article which covers this information in great detail? I would have voted a "keep" myself, but the subject already has an article... longer, more detailed, and better sourced. Schmidt, 23:24, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Keep discussions on that AFD page please. I have it on my watch list, and just responded to two different post. Dream Focus 09:54, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk:American Involvement in Haiti/Temp

Hi. The text you placed here is largely copied from the article itself and because of that it is in itself a copyright infringement (it includes some of the problematic text). We can't use copyrighted text on any space in Misplaced Pages, including talk pages and talk/temp pages, unless we have permission or unless it conforms to WP:NFC. I've blanked it as well for now rather than simply deleting it. I see you have not edited this since the 9th. Do you intend to work on this further? The matter has come ripe for closure at WP:CP. --Moonriddengirl 14:02, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I thought I had erased all the copyrighted stuff. I searched for the part with the date between quotation marks, and didn't find anything. Doesn't matter. I kept finding contradicting information when I went looking for information, and the sites I found seem to be a bit bias. One says a worker makes enough in a month to rent a shack, and that food cost too much, and then they are cheated out of their wages as often as possible. If that were all true, then they'd have less than 0 income, and would starve to death. Also, their current minimum wage is much higher than it previous was, so it is better than they'd make as farmers. The article has potential I suppose, its just hard to find information on it. They mention a study done by someone from a university, but I searched around and can't find proof that ever existed. Seems a bit odd. Anyway, delete it if you want to. Dream Focus 16:51, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
All right, I'll do so. If at some point somebody creates a clear article under the subject, so much the better. :) Thanks for your efforts to save it. --Moonriddengirl 17:20, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lucifer and the Biscuit Hammer

Hi, you just removed a prod template from Lucifer and the Biscuit Hammer. Your rational was WP:GHITS, which is specifically not a valid deletion argument. I have nominated the page for deletion at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lucifer and the Biscuit Hammer and your comments would be appreciated. Thanks. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR 18:43, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

That many people reading it, makes it notable as far as I'm concerned. Anyway, you won't find any official results until someone can determine what the proper Japanese title is, since it isn't what is listed there. I'm still searching for information about that. Dream Focus 18:54, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
Stop icon

Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war; read about how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you do not violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.--Sloane (talk) 02:09, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I believe the rule is only if I reverted the same person. I reverted you last time, since you didn't have a reason to be removing the tag, you stating only your belief that the article was going to be deleted anyway, so it didn't matter. That is NOT a valid reason to remove the rescue tag. And you did not talk about it, or form a consensus. Two editors have stated it should be there. Dream Focus 02:12, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

The following actions are exceptions to the three-revert rule, and do not count as reverts under the rule's definition.

   * Reverting obvious vandalism ... adding or removing tags

The only reason why anyone would be trying to delete rescue tag, is because they want the article deleted, and don't want anyone on the Rescue squad to come and help save it, as they did similar articles recently. The tag has a legitimate reason to be there, and you do not have the right to remove it. Dream Focus 02:20, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

3rr

I reported your continued reversions at the Administrators' noticeboard--Sloane (talk) 02:31, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

24h William M. Connolley (talk) 23:05, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Wow. So I misunderstood the rules then? Others considered it vandalism also, that they kept trying to delete a tag, they had no right to, without legitimate reason. And since when are any rules absolute? Its all up to interpretation. It was a sincere edit, not disruption, that I did. Anyway, I'll be back in 24 hours, to finish my discussion elsewhere. The whole system is seriously flawed, wikilawyering defeating common sense. Dream Focus 23:53, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
You got shampooed here. Removing a rescue template is remarkably lame, i.e. it's saying "I don't want it rescued, so, who cares if you do." Well, imagine if you tried removing an AfD template on the same premise. Ridiculous. Sincerely, --A Nobody 01:47, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
I see he removed the tag again once I was banned. Glad you were there to revert his obvious vandalism. Dream Focus 02:15, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
You are blocked, not banned. There is a big difference. Also, ironically, the editor who reported you above is himself edit warring over adding a template at here, so hopefully everyone will be addressed equally and fairly. Sincerely, --A Nobody 03:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you!

I wanted to thank you for your voice of support in the AfD article on The Motley Moose. It is most appreciated; I am glad someone took the time to actually look over the points presented! Cordially, 137.54.5.14 (talk) 18:19, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Want to delete something without anyone noticing and protesting? Try a merger!

There is no notice anywhere listing all the merger discussions. This includes merges which are 100% deletes! Not talking about the South Park episode bit, since they said they'll actually keep all the information on separate pages (and hopefully after that's done, no one will wait until no one is watching,and then delete 99% of their content because they think the article is too long). I'm talking about cases where a small group of friends, who post on each other's talk page all the time, get together, and vote 3 to 0, no one else around to notice, to "merge" articles for episodes, characters, or whatnot. They then go and erase these articles, putting a redirect in their place, with not one bit of information moved over. Or sometimes they remove 99% of a character page, and have just a token summary left to move over.

What we need is for every article out there to be placed in proper categories listings. And when something is nominated for a speedy delete, secret delete(forget what they are called), merger, or regular delete(through AFD), anyone who signed up for notification will be told. Otherwise, you can have just a very small number of people decide things, taking out the less popular series with ease.

I'd also like a tool that list all articles that were voted for in AFD as keep, that then got deleted anyway, replaced with a redirect. Dream Focus 00:03, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

You are confusing deletion and a merger. They completely different processes, with a merger the article history is maintained whilst a deletion removes an entire article including it's history. --neon white talk 07:11, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

http://www.m-w.com/

  • merge
One entry found.
Function: verb
to become combined into one: to blend or come together without abrupt change <merging traffic>

synonyms see mix

Nothing is merged though. And shouldn't we go through the AFD process if the article is going to be deleted, with the exception of its history?

  • 'delete
One entry found.
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Latin deletus, past participle of delēre to wipe out, destroy

to eliminate especially by blotting out, cutting out, or erasing <delete a passage in a manuscript> <delete a computer file>

Dream Focus 15:39, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

According to the rules of "...Merging — regardless of the amount of information kept — should always leave a redirect or, in some cases, a disambiguation page in place..." There is nothing about Deleting completely, just adding to an article that already exists --Legeres (talk) 20:47, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Good point. Shouldn't let them call it a merge then. That page gives a good clear definition of it, so I'll link to that next time. I argued before on various pages, that a redirect was not a merge, and that if not one bit of information was going to be copied over, then it wasn't a merge. Had another editor insist on calling it a merge though, refusing to listen to reason. Dream Focus 21:17, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Happy Saint Patrick’s Day!

On behalf of the Misplaced Pages:Kindness Campaign, we just want to spread Misplaced Pages:WikiLove by wishing you a Happy Saint Patrick’s Day! Sincerely, --A Nobody 16:04, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Top of the morning to you laddy, or whatever it is they are sterotyped as saying over there. Dream Focus 05:32, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

re your edits to User talk:Sephiroth BCR

I would point out that account holders are given pretty much free range, within the rules, of what they wish to host on the account talkpage. If you feel that there is still some good reason to continue a discussion that has been archived, I suggest that you request the editor that it is returned. Another method would be to continue to post, referencing the archived discussion. It is considered very poor manners to edit other peoples' talkpages, outside of discussion or removal of vandalism, and I think it would be appropriate for you to undo your edit and then continue as suggested above. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:35, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Erm...I just saw this. :|
Dream Focus, I agree with LessHeard vanU, and have reverted as such. Sephiroth BCR deliberately archived it last night as a discussion that wasn't going anywhere. I agree with his assessment. Although I said I missed the developments, I did review it for myself (in catch-up) prior to making the comment on his talk page. Should Sephiroth BCR like to recommence those discussions, or have it reappear on this page, he will unarchive them at his discretion. In the meantime, on the condition you don't alter the comments made there, you may duplicate the comments onto your page here if you wish. Alternatively, perhaps even preferrably, the method specified above by LessHeard vanU will work very well. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:05, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
I thought it was a mistake, since it was still ongoing. But he did that on purpose? I'll copy it on over here then. Dream Focus 18:48, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Extended content
The following content has been placed in a collapse box for improved usability.

User:Dream Focus & User:Collectonian

Comments duplicated from User talk:Sephiroth BCR until 05:10, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm asking for you advice cause i see that you seem to have tried some mediation between these two editors. Again it has arrived at a wikiquette alerts with both editors throwing bad faith accusations back and forth. Neither seem that interested in the advice given or accepting that this behaviour is unproductive which is about the limit of what can be done at WQA. Can you suggest anything? take it to ANI, mediation? A topic ban? A ban on interaction? I suggested that they both draw a line under the past and assmue good faith in future but i'm not convinced it will be effective. Thanks in advance. --neon white talk 06:08, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Is there much to prove wikistalking by Dream Focus? i couldn't really find anything to it. Not in recent contributions anyway. Dream Focus claims to be watching certain pages which is fair enough. It's very difficult to prove motive without making assumptions (which is the point i was trying to make to Collectonian with regards to the bad faith allegations against Dream Focus) Whilst it seems that Dream Focus is a problem, i've seen plenty of evidence of Collectonian edit warring with Dream Focus and not really assuming good faith. Do you believe this is reasonable or unreasonable? One of the things that WQA is stated not to be for is to mediate long term disputes between two editors. As for ideas, i know the arbitration committee can set strict guidelines with regards to intereaction but it's required that mediation is attempted first. --neon white talk 19:03, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
I've handled a similar harassment claim with LessHeard vanU in the past, although this may be a different bucket of monkeys. I just see a big mess at the WQA so I've closed it in favour of an RfC/U. It was helpful when others got to see the dispute from the perspective of both sides last time, so this would be an ideal time to do so again. The evidence section is what interests me most, and participation by both of you in that RfC will be important (as mediator, and as outsider). From there, I can make a recommendation on whether the community can do something that will work, or whether this might as well be pushed straight up to ArbCom. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:32, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
To neon white, there were several incidents of what I perceived to be stalking (see the thread above; I'm too tired to look for specific examples right now). Again, I think the root of the conflict is Dream Focus taking the "inclusionst vs. deletionist" conflict far too seriously and Collectonian overreacting to his zeal by edit warring. Part of the problem is that Collectonian tends to overreact to perceived stalking, some of which has occured here, so that has only served to inflame tensions. To be fair, she had to deal with another user who was stalking her (Abtract), and that had to be resolved by an arbitration case that restricted Abtract from interacting with her.
To Ncmvocalist, an RfC/U might be a decent solution. Get the two of them to vent all the perceived wrongs one has committed against the other and we can go from there. — sephiroth bcr 09:00, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
I just couldn't find any recent evidence that stalking was happening since the last time which was why i was concerned that Collectonian continuing the accusations of stalking (which i believe was the stated reason Dream Focus took it to WQA) and more were not appropriate. I'm unclear as to whether it is reasonable for her to not assume good faith considering Dream Focus's history. I'm just not happy about an editor's history being dragged up during a dispute in this way. I think there has to be a point where good faith has to be 're-assumed'. To be honest i have no idea why the "inclusionst vs. deletionist" thing has to be such an issue. There doesnt seem to be that much flexibility in policy for such extreme views. --neon white talk 05:20, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
I saw this on Ncmvocalist's talkpage, so I thought I might comment; The restriction that was drafted chiefly by Ncmvocalist between Collectonian and Abtract was a very comprehensive form of words which, if adhered to, should have prevented the wikihounding experienced by Collectonian (and also would have meant Collectonian agreeing to limits) - it is also flexible enough to be adopted by Dream Focus and Collectonian if the RfC concludes there should be an agreement that the editors should disengage. Abtract was only taken to ArbCom because of his gaming of the restriction, and was sanctioned largely because it was realised the restrictions were an appropriate vehicle for resolving the matter which he disregarded. I would recommend a review of the Abtract/Collectonian restrictions to see if a variant might serve the same intended purpose in this matter. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:43, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
Heh...everything (and I mean everything) I was going to say in my reply has already just been said by LHvU. :) Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:45, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm not convinced a ban on interaction will be that productive. They are going to have to interact with other editors and some will have equally opposing views. These too editors essentially need to learn to disagree in a civil manner. --neon white talk 05:20, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
It's one thing to interact with other editors with equally opposing views; it's another thing to wikihound another contributor. Also, in some cases, a ban on interaction prevents the disruption that is caused when they insist on continuing to interact - a toxic environment is not desired by anyone. Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:33, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
The Abtract/Collectonian restrictions might be a good idea. At least from my recollection, it was fairly easy to enforce and was rather obvious when one was gaming the restrictions. Also, Collectonian is familiar with the restrictions and probably won't have much of a problem with it. LHvU, could you link to the restrictions Ncmvocalist wrote up for those two? We might be able to simply skip the drama of an RfC/U if the two can agree to the restrictions to stay away from one another. — sephiroth bcr 08:17, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
The wording can be found here, part of an archive dedicated to this matter. In respect of Neon white's concern, it may be that the part of "not commenting" upon each other could be addressed strongly to Collectonian; as envisioned, the restriction was created to allow both parties to edit constructively without the distraction of the area of dispute and was not supposed to favour any one other than removing the specific matters of contention. If the parties are amenable, and good faith editors should be, then the restrictions can be voluntary with each editor requesting a reviewing admin plus third (or more) invited by the others. If this wording (or similar) is agreed then it can be posted at WP:AN. I trust this helps. LessHeard vanU (talk) 11:05, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
  • I think something needs to be done asap with this. I've seen further examples of the two editors getting deliberately (as i see it) involved with one another. For instance ] & ], Collectonian has no history with either of these article at all but appears straight after Dream Focus comments. Both of these editor's behaviour seems to be dragging other editors down and i think it's causing too many problems. I'm not in favour of throwing around blocks but i really believe these two need a cooling off and time to think. --neon white talk 20:04, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
  • To be fair in this case, Collectonian watches the AfDs at WP:ANIME/D fairly regularly, so this is really Collectonian being involved in her regular set of articles more than anything else. Also, I'm not really seeing those interactions as being worthy of blocks or even attention even. AfDs are always heated between people on different sides of the inclusion spectrum. I think you're overreacting in this case. I'm more worried about Dream Focus' comments outside of AfDs in merge discussions and whatnot. — sephiroth bcr 20:46, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
That's fair enough but the timing of her conributions and some of the wording concerns me. For instance the comments about Dream Focus when nominating Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Misa_Kobayashi. Were they really necessary? It seems a little antagonistic. To be honest i think both these editors are as bad as each other whe it comes to needling each other. I'm not in favour of blocks but these two editors do not seem prepared to either interact civily or avoid each other. Something has to be done. I'm tired of seeing them bicker and try to use every different process possible to justify it. --neon white talk 00:26, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Yes it was. I have ALWAYS noted when an article I am nominating was deprodded or a declined CSD, and I almost always note who removed it and the reason they gave. For a CSD, if it was "declined" by a non-admin, I also always note this. I'm not going to change my MO just because Dream Focus was the one who removed the tags, nor was I "antagonistic". I stated very simply that Dream Focus, a non-admin, removed both the prod and the CSD and quoted his edit summaries, same as I do for everyone else. Please point to some specific instances of incivility and personal attacks that I have personally done within the last 24 hours or so, and those by Dream Focus (including his newest, after he was blocked, on his talk page that basically mirrors his remarks below and in other areas without giving my name specifically). I think you will find that I have done little, if any, while he has continued full scale. Again, I have tried avoiding him, but when he keeps popping up all over the place, its rather hard to do and I will not just abandon my work in the anime/manga project because of him. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 00:43, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
"I'm not going to change my MO" i think you need to reconsider this. If such things may be percieved as antogonistic there's is no harm in altering your editing practices to avoid it. Why is admin or non-admin relevant? It comes across like an accusation that he didnt have authority to do so. Just don't comment on each other at all! You must realise that this only inflame matters. If you both follow that then it doesnt matter where he pops up. --neon white talk 01:29, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
At least in that AfD, disclosing who removed a CSD and prod tag and the reasoning is perfectly fine. There's nothing antagonistic about it; in the nature of full disclosure, you're supposed to state that there was a CSD/prod tag if you put one on the article and it was removed prior to the AfD. I think you're overreacting here quite a bit. — sephiroth bcr 08:09, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
I disagree. In normal cases it might be appropriate to disclose but considering this involved Dream Focus which she had prior problems with i think it's a good idea to stay away from any comments whatsoever that involve him. I wasn't saying the intention was necessarily was to antogonise but it certainly has the potential to and may come across accusatory, considering the extreme polar attitudes of both editors. Most nominators find it sufficient to simply note that a prod was removed without naming the editor or reasons. It's these types of things by both editors that are causing the problems and stopping both making any comments whatsoever concerning each other has to be considered. These editors have to learn to accommodate one other and that will mean being cautious about their actions around each other. --neon white talk 18:40, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
So your argument is that it can come off as antagonistic...with the language being entirely neutral in the opening sentence of the nomination and zero evidence that it actually was meant to be antagonistic. Again, you're overreacting a lot here. There's certainly other cases to address, but you're blowing this individual case way out of proportion. — sephiroth bcr 05:38, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I know you said you didn't want to hear from either of us, but this is ridiculous. I can not be expected to ignore any anime/manga AfDs just because Dream Focus commented on them first. Nor did I appear "straight" after him. 4-5 HOURS difference on one, 30 minutes on the other, and HE has no history of editing either either. And no mention of the opposite happening at both Lucifer and the Biscuit Hammer and its AfD, nor his immediately removing a CSD tag I put on an article nor his popping into a discussion at the South Park episode page only after I did (and continuing his "merge doesn't mean merge" arguments. Despite my questioning Neon white's neutrality at this point, I have tried very hard not to respond to Dream Focus' continuing personal attacks at the AfDs mentioned, in the TWO 3RR reports against Dream Focus at the moment, and here in which he continues perpetuating the false statements that I was the first and only editor to remove a rescue tag from an article, when I was neither the first NOR the last, yet Neon white actually told Dream Focus that he should have reported all THREE editors to AN/I instead of edit warring with us. I don't really see how Neon white can claim to want to resolve the situation while appearing to be throwing even more fuel on the fire.-- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 20:20, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

The removal of the tag was petty disruptive behaviour begining with other editors which you got unecessarily involved with in my opinion. Seeking admin intervention is always better than edit warring. I'm aware that you were not the first editor to remove it so why the need to get involved? I'd have thought avoiding such actions would be in your interest. No-one is suggesting you to not contibute to afds but to avoid unecessary antagonism. You are both hurling bad faith accusations at each other and that has to stop. Attacking a volunteer attempting to resolve a situation is also inapropriate --neon white talk 00:26, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Why do you continue to focus solely on my actions. You might note that now a FOURTH editor has removed that tag. Also, please point out where I edit warred. I reverted him ONCE. All other reverts were done by other editors who also agreed with the tag removal. I don't see you saying anything to any of them claiming it was "disruptive". Nor was I "unnecessarily" involved as it has already been established that I am a very active member in the parent project of the article and had, in fact, edited it earlier in the day to remove copyvio material after examining it when it was AfDed. So I noticed the tag was removed and that it was unnecessarily readded. I agreed with the removal, which Dream Focus had already been reverted on twice and very specifically asked for "a consensus with other editors before removing" so I removed as well showing additional support for its removal. I have not unnecessarily antagonized anyone, and again I do not see you saying a single word about Dream Focus' remarks in other places that ARE clearly unnecessary antagonism for which he has been chastised, even by his fellow rescue project members. So, again, I have to ask why are you focusing purely on me. It feels as if you think I am the only one at fault here or the one most at fault, and I just can't agree with that idea at all. I also have not attacked anyone attempting to resolve the situation, I've made what I feel is a legitimate question of neutrality because of the seeming focus purely against me without any negative remarks about Dream Focus' actions despite his remarks all over the place seeming to be a far greater issue of "bad faith".-- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 02:58, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
I commented on both editors actions in the WQA even though though the report was made about you. I warned both of you about the accusations being made. Whilst Dream Focus hasn't really responded to the requests and advice, you responded largely with denial and havent really shown any willingness to accept your part in the escalation which needed addressing. I am merely pointing out how some of your actions/methods may be reconsidered to avoid future problems. It's not an attack, it's helpful advice and is aimed at both editors. Both need to respond. If you respond and he continues his behaviour then he will deal with the consequences and not you.
I didnt actually say you edit warred. I said you got involved in an edit war that was going on with an editor that you have serious personal problems with for what reason? Why put yourself in that position? The removal was dispruptive in my opinion regardless of how many editors have done it. As was agreed by several editors in the edit war report, there is no logic to removing it other than to disrupt attempts to rescue an article. It's not up to a single editor to decide that an article is unrescuable. Deletion policy says we should do all we can to try and source an article. The afd will ultimately decide and attempts to rescue an article are nothing new nor unusual. It may be that editors have thoroughly searched for sources and found nothing and you may think that the rescue squad are wasting their time. Just let them and if the rescue squad do find 11th hour sources that save the article that should be welcomed. --neon white talk 19:10, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  • If its on the Rescue Squadron thing I visit it, and I have several categories on my watch list also. Her accusations toward me concerning the South Park thing, is rather ridiculous. Some people are trying to delete over a hundred articles at once, without going through an AFD, calling it a merge, when in fact not one bit of information will be added to the main article that is not already there. I protest this horrible and deceptive tactic, whenever I come across it. And once more, she mentions the CSD tag, which says if you disagree with it to remove it, which is what I did. She stated that you had to be an administrator to do that, but an administrator showed up and said that no, you didn't, anyone could do so. And where did I claim you were the first or only editor to remove the tag? I copied the history over there which shows who did what and when. Dream Focus 21:21, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
    • She has a ridiculous attack against me on her user page right now. Particularly in this case, where he tags anything and everything

"I have never tagged anything with the Rescue squadron tag before. I don't recall ever using any tag previously for anything. She on the other hand has a terrible habit of going around to articles that were voted keep, and erasing them anyway, calling it a Merge. Look through her history, and you can see she has done that quite regularly. You have an editor who refuses to follow closing AFD consensus, and is obsessed with deleting every single article she can get away with. Is there a way to search for how many articles she has added a redirect to, after they were voted Keep? Dream Focus 21:57, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Question for Dream Focus

Have you had the opportunity to review the restrictions that I linked to for Sephiroth BCR? Do you think that this might provide a basis for you and Collectonian to move forward in the editing of the encyclopedia, once the current matter is resolved? Cheers, LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:03, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

We can not avoid each other, she determined to delete every article she can get away with, while I wish to save those worth saving(she calls herself a deletionist, I an inclusionist, that not an insult, but a fact). Conflict will occur. She can stop calling me a stalker in her edit summaries, and other uncivilized acts. I'm leaving any and all discussions I've had with anyone on my user page. Dream Focus 22:27, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
I think the problem boils down to Dream Focus' belief that Collectonian is "determined to delete every article she can get away with". That misconception is perhaps the key problem here (aside from being grossly incorrect and having no basis whatsoever) and needs to be addressed. — sephiroth bcr 22:46, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
To me, it also appears that Collectonian believes that Dream Focus is stalking her - and since harassment is in the eye of the beholder it is a valid perception - so I think that there can be a real benefit in having a restriction in them dealing directly with each other. While stillborn, there was an element in the old restriction of each party coming to one of the admins to mediate any immediate difficulty; thus reducing the potential of increasing friction every time the parties clash. If both editors can see how their own editing will be less effected, then I think that some sort of wording which distances both from each other might appear attractive. (I hope that folks can see that I am trying to get this agreed by the two editors, because it is much more likely to work when both believe they are deriving nett benefit from it...) LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:05, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
And FYI to the other participants in this thread, Dream Focus has just been blocked for 24 hours for a 3RR violation, so we'll put this particular question on hold for a bit. — sephiroth bcr 23:18, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Since my ban is up now, I'd like to comment on her statement above concerning the CSD tag. Or better yet, everyone just read what actually happened, and give your opinions please for that particular event.

Please look at the edit history of that article. Remember, read from the bottom, it coming first. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misa_Kobayashi&action=history

  1. (cur) (prev) 02:29, 16 March 2009 Collectonian (talk | contribs) (825 bytes) (Nominated for deletion; see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Misa Kobayashi. using TW) (undo)
  2. (cur) (prev) 02:23, 16 March 2009 X! (talk | contribs) (503 bytes) (rv, csds can be removed by anyone, not just admins.) (undo)
  3. (cur) (prev) 02:18, 16 March 2009 Collectonian (talk | contribs) (518 bytes) (Undid revision 277548613 by Dream Focus (talk) rv; CSDs are determined by admins, not you) (undo)
  4. (cur) (prev) 02:16, 16 March 2009 Dream Focus (talk | contribs) (503 bytes) (It says "If this page does not meet the criteria for speedy deletion, or you intend to fix it, please remove this notice") (undo)
  5. (cur) (prev) 02:14, 16 March 2009 Collectonian (talk | contribs) (518 bytes) (Undid revision 277546098 by Dream Focus (talk) rv; you are not an admin) (undo)
  6. (cur) (prev) 02:02, 16 March 2009 Dream Focus (talk | contribs) (503 bytes) (I object. An actor in three notable series gets an article, so why not voice actors the same way?) (undo)
  7. (cur) (prev) 01:33, 16 March 2009 Collectonian (talk | contribs) (518 bytes) (Requesting speedy deletion (CSD A7). using TW) (undo)
  8. (cur) (prev) 18:36, 15 March 2009 Dream Focus (talk | contribs) (504 bytes) (has worked as a voice actor on several notable series) (undo)
  9. (cur) (prev) 15:09, 15 March 2009 Scott MacDonald (talk | contribs) (771 bytes) (Proposing article for deletion per WP:PROD. (TW)) (undo)

Just read through that please. She appeared to believe only administrators could delete those tags, despite the fact it says if anyone disagrees with the speedy delete, they should remove it. Prods and speedy delete are just if no one would possibly object to the deletion of an article. Otherwise, you send it to AFD and discuss it, forming a consensus.

And if I delete her CSD tag right away, its because I had added that page to my watchlist after removing the prod placed by someone else. And I removed the speedy delete tag, for the same reason.

I would like others to read her comments there in the edit summaries, as well as on the AFD page as well, and comment. Did I do anything wrong? What about her adding the speedy delete tag back after I removed it? Isn't that rather uncalled for? I only mention the event at all, since it was brought up in the discussion above. I thought it just a common mistake, although a strange one, since the tag clearly states that anyone can remove it if they disagree, not just an administrator.

Notice that she appears to believe that everyone is out to get her. Do I appear in even 1% of the articles she is involved in? She edits a tremendous number of articles every day it seems. I'm certainly not stalking her, if we both show up in the anime/manga discussion, or something else we both signed up for on our watch list. Her constant behavior to ignore anything that the AFD voted keep, and then erase it when no one is looking, replacing it with a redirect, and calling it a "merge" despite nothing being merged, is a source of conflict. This is how this all got started again, she doing that to an article I had on my watchlist, and then in her edit comment calling me a "stalker" once again for it. I am certainly not stalking her. Dream Focus 01:42, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I think WP:AGF applies. You should assume that this is a misunderstanding of deletion policy. This wasnt what the block was for why is it being brought up? You need to provide some evidence to back up your claims. Do you have any diffs of these? --neon white talk 03:17, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
I mention it only because it was mentioned above. She complained about me deleting her tag for a speedy deletion after she posted it, so I was responding to that. I mention that I didn't respond previously, because I had a 24 hour block. Sorry if I didn't write that out in the most coherent way possible. The block issue I believe was discussed elsewhere, most agreeing they committed vandalism by removing the tags. As soon as I was blocked, there were at least two more attempts to remove them, reverted by others. But that doesn't specifically concern this case. I am not stalking her, and do not wish to be constantly accused of stalking. She has falsely accused me of other things as well, every chance she gets.

My problems are with her constant accusations, none of which make any sense. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#Collectonian.27s_behavior

Every chance she gets, she accuses me of going after her because she nominated one of my articles for deletion, the Gantz Equipment page. You can see on my user page that that only happened, after I criticized her actions elsewhere, and then told her not to erase a message on a talk page, because she didn't like what it said. She then nominated my article for deletion. I had problems with her in the past. Does anyone who has seen the facts, believe her constant accusation that I'm simply out to get her because she deleted one article of mine? She makes false accusations to try to sway others to her side.

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages%3AWikiquette_alerts&diff=276813655&oldid=276812516 She accuses me of forum shopping, on a recent history of quatrains page, despite the fact I only posted on the wikiquette, and then was told where to post instead, and then posted a second time at that location. Does anyone consider that forum shopping? And that article was kept, as consensus, after enough attention was brought to the fact that a few were determined to delete it, and put just a redirect in its place.

Those who have looked through the issue, please answer my questions.

  • Do you believe I am stalking her, by appearing in the same AFD we both signed up notification for, and an occasional other discussion?
  • Do you believe I was forum shopping in the history of quatrains issue mentioned above?
  • Do you believe I am specifically out to her, in any way, for any reason?
  • Do you believe it is appropriate for her to keep making these accusations?

Dream Focus 05:10, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

The above is an extended discussion that has been collapsed for improved usability.


Talkback

Hello, Dream Focus. You have new messages at MuZemike's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

MuZemike 03:33, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for File:Barbarain II cover art.jpg

Thanks for uploading File:Barbarain II cover art.jpg. You've indicated that the image meets Misplaced Pages's criteria for non-free content, but there is no explanation of why it meets those criteria. Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. If you have any questions, please post them at Misplaced Pages:Media copyright questions.

Thank you for your cooperation. NOTE: once you correct this, please remove the tag from the image's page. STBotI (talk) 03:34, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Fixed. Dream Focus 03:43, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Notability for Manga

Seeing your interest in establishing notability in manga, I'm inviting you to take a look at and comment on User:NocturneNoir/Sandbox/Notability (manga). Thanks. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR 21:54, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I use those arguments in the AFD all the time to try to save manga, sometimes succeeding. Depends on who is around the day to vote. Tried discussing it on the notability book guideline page before, and nothing came of it. Dream Focus 22:59, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Dream Focus#How bad editors try to delete things

How do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you've got stuff like this on your user page? Would you be happy with someone else writing a section on "How bad editors try to get non-notable articles kept at AfD"? Black Kite 11:27, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Why would that bother me at all? I have the right to state my opinions about the wikipedia, and so I did. If any editor did this, and some in fact clearly do, in my opinion they are a bad editor. Such behavior should not be tolerated. Dream Focus 11:32, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
No, you are NOT allowed to characterize others as bad editors - that contravenes WP:NPA and is disruptive (exactly as the opposite would be). Remove it, please. Black Kite 11:43, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
There. I changed it, so it doesn't call anyone bad. It now is called "What I consider horrible editing practices", so isn't attacking anyone, just stating criticism of certain practices people go through Dream Focus 11:49, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
OK. It's not that you're not allowed to give personal opinions here, it's only when those opinions are negative and you present them as facts that it becomes a problem. Black Kite 11:59, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
What? Anyone can consider the opinions of someone negative, if they disagree with them. And it is a fact that certain editors use such tactics. Dream Focus 12:03, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, that might've been unclear. What I mean is that it's perfectly OK to say "I consider this a bad editing practice" (opinion), but it's not OK to say "People who do this are bad editors" (opinion presented as fact). See the difference? Black Kite 12:07, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
You can't say people who do bad things are bad people, only criticize their actions as bad. Alright then. State your negative opinion about an action, but not the people who do it. Understood. Dream Focus 12:09, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
It's not just a personal attack issue; it's an appalling assumption of bad faith; tweaking the title does nothing about that. Jack Merridew 12:11, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
I criticize the methods used by some to delete an article, against consensus. Are you suggesting someone who does this, isn't doing it on purpose, or didn't know better? If I said that sending the same article to AFD twice from the same editor was wrong, would that be assuming bad faith? I've seen that happen before. Or would it lead to a bad faith assumption that this person is just trying to go against consensus from previous AFD, and keeps trying until they got the result they wanted? If an article was deleted, and then someone who voted Keep tried to recreate it, and the information was exactly the same as before, wouldn't that be wrong? Does whether or not you agree with the actions being criticized, or the person using them, influence what you believe is right or wrong to post criticism of? Dream Focus 12:23, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Deleting 'articles' that don't reasonably meet sound inclusion criteria improves the project. You seem to miss that the Evil Deletionist Cabal is seeking the improvement of the project. Have you noticed that no one is proposing to delete Asia, The Canterbury Tales, or Jainism? Japanese porn twins, ephemeral dross such as TV shows, and weapons lists for (what?) video games are another matter; much of this sort of stuff amounts to little more than silverfish damaging the project as a whole. Jack Merridew 12:47, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
The content of the article is not relevant. You don't delete something simply because you don't like it. If you don't believe something should be allowed on wikipedia, then change the policy to say no episode list, no porn, etc. Saying sometimes its alright, and sometimes it isn't, is just wrong. A significant number of page views for wikipedia are sex related though, with popular culture getting more than half. I don't recall where they keep the stats though, but it is interesting to see. And you can't improve the project by deleting articles, simply because of some unreasonable guideline, which discriminates against many types of media which simply don't get reviewed at all. I protest the unfairness. Dream Focus 12:57, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Deleting content that is not appropriate for inclusion always improves the project; no exceptions. If the goal was to focus on including content that vast numbers of people simply want, we would be all about uploading copyvios off porn sites. This, however, is an encyclopedia, not a porn site or fan site. Misplaced Pages discriminates against content all the time per Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information; deal with it. Jack Merridew 08:43, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
It really depends on the article, to be honest. There can be reasons for sending an article to AfD a number of times. For example, there might be a feeling at the first AfD that the article is capable of becoming notable, and it is therefore kept. However, a year later, if it hasn't improved, it might be felt that the first AfD got it wrong. Or accepted notability might change over time - for example, there is much more community will to delete marginally notable BLPs these days, after many problems in the past. The other problem I think here is that you're not quite grasping the concept of "consensus". Misplaced Pages is not a democracy, and AfDs are not a vote. For example, an AfD with three Keep votes, each of which gives a good policy-based reason to keep, and ten Delete votes which are all "Delete, this isn't notable" might well be closed as Keep and the closing admin would have a good reason for doing so. I've noticed recently that you've stated that articles are saved at AfD "if they've got enough fans" - well, whilst that might be the case sometimes, the number of fans doesn't make a difference if they can't give any other reason that "I like this article" for it to be kept. Works both ways. Black Kite 12:49, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Some episode articles are kept, even without anything to prove them notable, while others for series with less fans around to protest, are deleted. Simple as that. And what is this about renominating something if you thought the AFD got it wrong? Can you recreate an article a year after it was deleted, because you disagree with the AFD? And to clarify, I mean the exact same article, not something that has been changed at all. Dream Focus 12:57, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Absolutely. Quite often you will see AFDs closed with a comment like "giving marginal article a chance to improve". If (in say a year's time) the article hasn't improved, another AfD would be perfectly in order. There's no problem with multiple AfDs as long as it isn't done disruptively, because sometimes AfD gets it wrong. Don't forget, there's always WP:DRV as a check when it does. Black Kite 13:27, 20 March 2009 (UTC)