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Sathya Sai Baba article

Sathya Sai Baba is a living person, who lives in a small city called "Puttaparthi", in South India, state of Andhra Pradesh. Thousands of people gather everyday to see him, in a place called Sai Kulwant Hall, inside a complex called "Prasanthi Nilayam", where Sai Baba's residence is located. This people believe he is a saint.

On the other hand, there is a group of people who believes he is a criminal.

So, we have two radically opposite points-of-view.

The article in Misplaced Pages is being used by the group with the "anti-Baba" point-of-view to do theirs propaganda. This group is engaged in a strong effort to avoid the article to be a truly representative of NPOV.

Currently, the article suffers from:
- lack of NPOV
- offends Basic Human Dignity
- suffers from Information Supression

Link to the article: http://en.wikipedia.org/Sathya_Sai_Baba

In the brief description of the case, above, I myself have assumed a neutral point-of-view.

Below, a link to my first comment about the article. There, I write with my own POV feelings, but using NPOV arguments, so neutral editors could follow and, with common sense, agree: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Sathya_Sai_Baba#What_if_Sai_Baba_is_really_an_Avatar.3F

But, after that, I found many unpleasant things:
- trying to edit results in "removal of large-scale vandalism", and the edit vanishes from the history; (thus, the history itself is biased)
- there is an editor, "White adept", acting as policeman to maintain biased, not-NPOV status quo;
- there is another user, "Andries", faking a positive POV; (thus, you are mislead)
- their combined actions drive anybody who arrives to read all negative-POV references;
- also, they managed a pack of ready-made arguments that classifies the huge amount of positive-POV references as "not reliable";
- making, in this way, extremely difficult, if not impossible, to restore or improve the article's quality.

This article constitutes a very serious issue for Misplaced Pages itself. Millions of people around the world support Sai Baba's efforts (six million, in the negative-POV estimate; from 50 to 100 millions, in the positive-POV estimate). The current article is an offense not only to Sai Baba himslef, but also to all of them.

Thank you.

Old mediation... How to Bypass

I am presently filing for formal mediation on Transcendental Meditation but am finding an old mediation from 2007 in place. Not sure how to bypass that to apply for a new mediation. Thanks for any help you can give on this.(olive (talk) 16:28, 24 March 2009 (UTC))

I see that if I add a date ...2009 to Transcendental Mediation I come up with a new page and bypass the old mediation request ....Is that OK.(olive (talk) 16:37, 24 March 2009 (UTC))

From what I can see from your contribs, you haven't created the mediation yet. If there is already Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Transcendental Meditation, then I suggest you create Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Transcendental Meditation 2 - that's what we normally do. Also, I'll get back to your email in a second. Hope that helps, but if you need anything else don't hesitate to ask. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:01, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I wanted to include any editors who were interested in the mediation application so left a message for each asking if they were interested in being included, clearly stating that this did not mean they agreed to the mediation just that they were available. Some have not responded and another who is a major contributor to the discussion has said, no. 1.) Can editors names be added to a mediation even after the mediation has been started? Can editors not named in a mediation be part of mediation discussion. 2.) I'd like to make sure anyone who wants to be part of the mediation can be even if initially they may not have wanted to.(olive (talk) 02:57, 28 March 2009 (UTC))

Question

I noticed your thread on AN/I about the date linking proposal. I'm not trying to be smart, but by the time I was done reading everyone's comments - I wasn't sure if we were allowed to comment on the talk page of that proposal or not. Should I just wait until next Monday? — Ched ~ /_© 08:49, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Hello Ched. Thanks for your question. Whilst I could probably get away with showing that AN/I thread as consensus for my actions (everybody uninvolved commented with me, and the only people who dissented were involved with the issue), it'll cause too much trouble if I did do that. In short, editing any page is fine by me. Ryan Postlethwaite 09:19, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

The above statement that "everybody uninvolved commented with " is inaccurate; I have had absolutely no involvement in the debate at any point, and I quite clearly responded to the AN/I thread with strong opposition to your plan. That I opted to do so on the poll's talk page (explicitly noting that I was led there by the AN/I discussion) is irrelevant.

Regardless, the argument that only the individuals you sought to bar from editing the page disagreed would not be a particularly compelling one.

So thank you for backing away from this idea. —David Levy 20:32, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, can you link me to where you stated on AN/I that you were strongly opposed to the idea? I can't find it. Ryan Postlethwaite 20:42, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

As noted above, I responded on the poll's talk page (explicitly noting that I was led there by the AN/I discussion). I did so to avoid fueling a "forest fire" (a situation in which a heated debate rages on multiple fronts). I hope that you aren't now citing this as some sort of technicality. —David Levy 21:11, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I do apologise David, I missed your post completely - When I was referring to AN/I, I didn't realise there was a comment from you on the poll talk. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:25, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

No problem; that was my assumption. I might not agree with your methods, but I don't doubt your sincerity. —David Levy 00:32, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm completely uninvolved, and have never commented at the date delinking RFAR or the poll. I opposed your plans as you outlined them on ANI. So, no, everybody uninvolved didn't comment in your favour. Did you miss my ANI posts (there were two), or are you saying I'm (secretly) (somehow) involved in this issue? I'm not. Bishonen | talk 12:38, 27 March 2009 (UTC).

Disruption by Locke

Ryan, Locke should have had an across-the-board block. No one should have to put up with this. Greg L (talk) 18:05, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Protection of the RFC

You can remove the protection on the RFC whenever you like, I have no intent to edit that page and I wouldn't want to hold up "progress" since I'm sure Greg, Ohconfucius, and Tony are excited and want a chance to edit it unopposed. —Locke Cole • t • c 18:08, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I've unprotected the page. Ryan Postlethwaite 18:16, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Your restoring of year option #3

Ryan, did you notice that I folded the contents of #3 into #2? There is no reason for #3 now. Greg L (talk) 18:14, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

That proposal was number 4, I just readded it as number 3. It's far different from proposal number two so still needs asking - it's not possible to incorporate 2 and 3 together. Ryan Postlethwaite 18:16, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I see what you've done. Let me have a think about it - I'll revert myself for now. Ryan Postlethwaite 18:17, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

• Yes. Earle and Ckatz were at peace with it. Please, I see that the two camps are converging here. Greg L (talk) 18:19, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

• Yeah, I see what you've done - all looks good. Ryan Postlethwaite 18:21, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

There is a chance that the two camps might converge on the month-day issue too. Proposals 1 and 2 are not quite what one would call different. I will add a proposal at the talk later today. Tony (talk) 02:18, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

RfC

The end of Saturday—that is, midnight Saturday, is certainly better than the start of Saturday, i.e., midnight Friday, which is what I had assumed.

The interruption last night and the sudden changes to the Background statement, I believe done at the end strategically, are making it very difficult to get the page into reasonable shape in time. By "reasonable", I mean something that other users won't scoff at. There has been a bit of that already.

I'd love to get this thing out of the way soon as much as you would, and end of Saturday would be idea. But it has taken on an unpredictable direction. Can we work towards end of Saturday and hope that it can be done? I'd be upset if it couldn't. Tony (talk) 02:16, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I assume you both are talking in UTC terms, correct? Dabomb87 (talk) 03:46, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I am presuming that's Ryan's understanding too. It is still a rush to get this in order by midnight tomorrow night UTC. Tony (talk) 06:00, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Onerous response requirements

Ryan, I don't know whether it was Greg or you or someone else, but we seem to have gone back to requiring users to enter nine preferences/comments and sign each (one for DA, four each for the other two). My change a day ago so that users need only make one entry for each of the month-day and the year questions seemed logical, since, as worded (and presumably uncontested), only one text for each can be inserted into the style guides. Outside people are already pissed that it's so complex.

Is there some reason we can't go back to the "state your first preference (#1, #2, #3 or #4), with comments if you wish? Otherwise, it will be just impossible to make sense of. Edit-conflicts and huge scrolling will be the order of the day, even before the impossible task of interpretation. I've left a note linking to her from CKatz's page. Tony (talk) 06:00, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

What I've just changed it back to is approval voting - this is where you support the options that you want. If people have a preference for one, they will only support one - they don't have to vote for every single proposal. It's a significant improvement from when we had support/oppose columns - now that would have gotten tedius by the end had everyone been required to vote in 9 different questions. Now there's just three questions to answer. If we start having a section with a mixture of votes then it's going to make the poll completely ambigious and basically a total mess with a lot of mangled information to parse at the end of it. Can we just leave that bit as is please? Ryan Postlethwaite 08:34, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Ryan, l note you've removed "also" from that option. It was on the basis of that word that I assumed it was an add-on to the previous proposal. Thus, I inserted "#2 plus". But if you think it's not an add-on, I wonder whether the title should be modified to remove the #2 plus. I'm a little confused. Who's the author? Tony (talk) 14:01, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi Tony. I removed the "also" because it's supposed to be an entirely separate proposal - it specifically wasn't meant to be an extension of two else I'd probably have suggested letting them go together. You can see my reasoning for that here. In a nutshell, the proposals are quite contradictory so they can go together. I'd suggest the title needs to be changed to reflect this. Maybe "Link one time only"? Ryan Postlethwaite 14:35, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Circumcision is propaganda

I need advice on how to help fix the Circumcision topic. Should I file a mediation request? Should I give up?

The problem reads something like this:

Facts actively denied the reader include: 1. Circumcision frequently includes frenectomy; 2. Sexual effects of frenectomy, and of different methods of circumcision; 3. Original religious circumcision procedure; 4. Complications from circumcision. Please see a partial list of relevant referenced facts actively removed and or denied the reader. Discussion is a sham because of dominant pro-circ motivations.

Odd evidence of a cabal, but please see and note the predominance religious supporters who had never worked on Circumcision but still voted for Jakew. Also odd evidence, but please look at the admins who worked on my last block … never worked in circumcision and cracking religious jokes.

Mostly, look at circumcision topic content and judge relevance, and evidence of propaganda. Look at the length, driven mostly by repeated discussion of medical benefits. Almost all circumcisions (all neonatal) are non-therapeutic! Why isn’t "non-therapeutic" in the intro? Why is HIV in the intro? Why is the edit text so messed up and jumbled with cumbersome links and text not included the topic?

I understand that Wiki is not set up to establish final content and then freeze a topic. Frequently topics are dominated by special interests. Trying to fix content is impossible without neutral editors. Circimcision will always be a mess.

The cabal in circumcision currently seeks to remove POV/fact tags, so please, at least, please try to maintain those warnings. I understand that Wiki can’t eliminate a topic, but currently, the reader is mislead by Wiki content.TipPt (talk) 17:33, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Some things

Ryan, I left notes saying that the poll starts on 30 March at the forums where notices were previously posted. I just wanted to thank you for your work. Even though we (as a collective group of pro-linkers and anti-linkers) have had to battle it out every inch of the way, progress is being made. Your initial efforts were vital in helping us move forward. I was impressed by your coolness throughout; except for a few instances in which you became a bit overprotective of the poll, you have managed to not blow your top, a very hard thing to do in this neck of the woods! I won't be around for a day and a half, but I hope for your sake (and everybody else's sanity) that things go smoothly. Thanks again.

Regards, Dabomb87 (talk) 04:08, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Wikibreak help

Could I please get a hand at User:JohnnyMrNinja/monobook.js? I'm confused by Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_User_scripts/Scripts/WikiBreak_Enforcer - I'm not quite sure what I'm doing, but I know that it's wrong. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 21:22, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh well, I don't get it. If you see this in the next few days and can fix it until April 1, that'd be great. If not, no big deal. Thanks! ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 21:48, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Uniformity

Greg unilaterally revised both date delinking questions, and Arthur Rubin expressed disagreement on talk, and I reformatted one of them, not expecting a protection; can you reformat them to match?

I should prefer the version on the first question, which permits split opinions. As I shall explain at the RfC, Greg's formulation makes it difficult to express my opinion; and therefore dissuades me from believing the poll conclusive. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:26, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi PM. As it happens, Greg was right with the formatting - it's a poll and we need to be clear about that. There's a comments box below each set of proposals where opposition can be expressed if needs be. Sorry, I know that's not what you wanted to hear. Ryan Postlethwaite 03:24, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Watchlist notice for teh poll

Hi. First, congratulations on your work on this daunting case... Although I would suggest to discuss the inclusion of the poll at the watchlist-notice talk page first, just to have a rough consensus, to avoid complaints arising almost systematically when they are too many notices or one is added without discussion. Thanks, Cenarium (talk) 02:32, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your post Cenarium. Could you possibly handle the watchlist notice for me? I can't find the talk page (bad I know!) to comment on. All we need is a simple talk page message expressing that we wish to use the watchlist for the poll. Many thanks, Ryan Postlethwaite 03:26, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

For what it's worth, MediaWiki talk:Watchlist-details. - Rjd0060 (talk) 03:46, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

A sideline issue

Ryan, from my small experience of the WP:CIVILITY page, I've been interacting with an admin who's tinkering with an essay on civility warnings. I've raised on the talk page of that essay what might be a novel protocol for admins to deal with some cases of incivility, particularly where it involves experienced editors. Your feedback would be welcome. No rush, given the other circumstances we find ourselves in. Tony (talk) 11:45, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Two important administrative matters

Ryan, thanks for reinstating the clarity of the words "I support" in the month-day responses.

In doing this, I think you overlooked the prior removal of the guidance to voters in the lead (Please indicate your support vote under ONE option, accompanied by a concise explanation for your choice. Your explanation is important in determining the community consensus.) which was of course consistent for all three questions.

In addition, the word "Option" seems to have gone astray in the first header (i.e., for Option #1).

Would you mind reinstating both the guidance, and the word "Option", to preserve consistency on both counts. Tony (talk) 15:02, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi Tony, I've corrected the error - apologies for protecting it with the error there in the first place. Ryan Postlethwaite 21:29, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality of the RFC

Barring my objections to the last minute changes from support/oppose voting to simple approval voting, I do hope you've considered keeping those closely involved with this from attempting to create a stacked vote as I suggested some time ago. Blocking those of us involved may be a bit much, but certainly allowing a week of community discussion sans our input could prove useful at achieving something that truly reflects what the community thinks. —Locke Cole • t • c 19:24, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I've tried hard to get neutral opinions, but nobody seems willing (or bothered) to take a look. I just don't see the point in delaying the start of the poll simply to try and get opinions that aren't going to materialise. As it happens, I think the poll is now well structured and will give a good chance at giving a successful outcome. Ryan Postlethwaite 21:28, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't fully agree. The subtitles for options 1 should read "link only relevant ... articles" (emphasis added; should not be in the RfC itself.) I haven't actually stated a position in this RfC, but my position would be that year option 2 more accurately reflects "link only relevant years". I did comment on the article talk page, but the subtitle was set less then 24 hours before the lockdown, and I didn't have a chance to comment before the lockdown. The previous subtitle, "conservative", was just too ambiguous. I think perhaps we should just eliminate the subtitles. It might confuse some editors, but it wouldn't mislead them. I concur that waiting for opinions from previously uninvolved editors seems counterproductive, but think that the vote-for-one language makes the poll results unusable unless it produced a clear supermajority for a single option, and perhaps not even then. The opinions expressed in the poll could still be usable. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:50, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

see the mess I've created?

I always wondered about that in your sig. would you referring to this. lol - I'm just kidding Ryan, I think you do a GREAT job. I really don't understand all the hostility on the talk page either - I don't understand why it's such a big deal really. But, then again, the first time I read the MOS talk page my jaw damn near hit the ground. Seems like some of the most trivial things can drive a normally sane, intelligent person to say some of the most outrageous things. Anyway, when it's up, I'll post my 2-cents worth of !vote, and I think you've done a great job on this all the way around. — Ched ~ /_© 22:17, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I think some would argue that the poll and talk page is just one huge mess :-) Any time people care about a particular issue and have conflicting views, there's the potential for a flame war. It's a lot easier to do over the internet. I suspect if we could get all the participants together in one place, we could settle the dispute through friendly discussion (opposing sides might even get along!). Unfortunately, that's not possible and all we've got is an online medium. As it happens, I don't think this has been anyone's best time here (including mine), but, in the end we've managed to create a very good poll which I have high hopes for. We've certainly made the best out of a less than ideal situation. Many thanks for your kind words by the way - they really are appreciated! Ryan Postlethwaite 22:32, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

links

Ryan, please make sure that links appear for each voting subsection when you go prime-time. I’m not sure why they don’t show now. It could be because of transclusion, or it could be because of the jump from triple-equal level (===) to quintuple-equal (=====), or just because the transcluded page is locked (which will solve the problem instantly). Please keep an eye peeled on this issue though. Greg L (talk) 22:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

It's because the page is protected at the minute - as soon as it's unprotected, you'll see the edit links. No need to worry :-) Ryan Postlethwaite 22:37, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Poll

Aren't you one hour early ? :) Cenarium (talk) 23:07, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

God damn it, it's British Summer Time. I only just remembered. I've never been caught out before. Oh well, I think it's best we keep it open now I've posted all the notifications. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:10, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Note

I'm going to bed shortly. I'm afraid that any comments/questions regarding Misplaced Pages:Date formatting and linking poll will have to wait for at least 8 hours (unless you can get them in extremely quickly!). All the best everyone! Ryan Postlethwaite 23:19, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Unacceptable disruption via disputed tag

(*sign*) Ryan, why is there this {disputed} tag on month-day and here too on years at this juncture? Talk about disruptive… Greg L (talk) 00:37, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

P.S. PMAnderson’s assertions that the vote structure was put there by a single editor via editwarring is a total lie that amounts to a personal attack. He knows full well that this had been addressed above here on your talk page as well as (in depth) here on the RfC talk page. He knows the voting structure has been fully deliberated and is endorsed by you, the supervising clerk, and that it is official. His actions are purely disruptive. Greg L (talk) 00:44, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

• I have taken the liberty of removing all of the attempts of Manderson to disrupt the proceedings. There is the possibility that many editors will not even get so far, but I am not willing to take the risk. My removals will certainly be viewed by Mandy as provocative. However, I consider this covered by WP:Vandalism, and will perform as many reverts as necessary to preserve the integrity of the poll. Ohconfucius (talk) 01:48, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Really? I thought it was your decision, Ryan, which I would have protested, but abided by. This is unacceptable, and I will propose bans for both these cheats. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:16, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

additional edit needed under "disadvantages of month-day markup"

when you cleared up that "clarification needed" moment (thank you!) by conflating the two points about bot/script recognition of date strings, this "rejoinder" under "Disadvantages of month-day markup" was supposed to be removed at the same time:

2. Redundant for avoiding ambiguity, when standard punctuation and the correct preposition are used ("In June, 19 planes departed", versus "On June 19, planes departed").

i hope it's not too late to remove that, because it makes no (0) sense. Sssoul (talk) 05:36, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

ps: here's a link to the section of the RfC where the edit is needed. Sssoul (talk) 11:12, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

The page isn't protected, so feel free to make those minor changes. Ryan Postlethwaite 21:47, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

all right, i've made the change, trusting you will back it up if it's challenged. thanks.

would changing the "subtitles" of the two "Option 1s" be regarded as a "minor change" as well? "Option 1: link only to relevant date/year articles" is the proposal, and it would make Arthur Rubin happier. Sssoul (talk) 06:46, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Karmaisking again

Could you block User:GoldManTookFtKnox, the latest KiK sock, please. He kept below the radar long enough to attack some semi-protected articles unfortunately.JQ (talk) 10:41, 30 March 2009 (UTC). Also User:FreeToDecide, and semi-protection needed for Full reserve banking. Thanks in advance. JQ (talk) 11:40, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

the poll

Hey Ryan, I did !vote, and have even commented once or twice on the talk page. I also watchlisted, and am interested in following this - but not really to debate back and forth on the talk page - I'll simply "go with the flow", and move in whatever direction community consensus takes things. If (and I know that it's a month or more down the road) we get to the second poll - and if you think of it, I wouldn't mind a poke on my talk page as to the addy of new pole. Another note: Have you considered splitting the poll on the second go around into 2 separate polls 1.) for the linking issue and a second for the auto-formatting issue? Just a thought - in case it hadn't crossed your mind. If it's already been discussed in detail, I apologize - I tend to read the beginning of things like that talk page, and just jump to the "bottom line" so to speak. Oh well, best of luck with this, at least you're getting a rather large turn-out. ;P — Ched ~ /_© 11:36, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi Ched. We haven't yet decided whether or not there's going to be a second round of polling - it all depends on these results. The second poll will be more of an implementation poll (how to implement the first polls results) so we'll have to see what happens. I'll certainly keep you posted with what's going to happens. Ryan Postlethwaite 11:40, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Poll now open

Hi Ryan,

You mentioned at some of the parts of the Village pump that the poll is open. I took the liberty of mentioning it at the other parts of the Village pump and in some other relevant places. I hope that helps. Lightmouse (talk) 15:14, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Moved from your userpage

I tried to use the mediation window but couldn't. My concern is simply that the article "Pro Se Litigation in the United States" is missing essential information. Most particularly the Rules of Conduct for U.S. Judges and its changes in March 2009 that affect pro se litigants. This information has been deleted and should be available to the public

The current code of conduct for United States Judges requires "A judge should accord to every person who is legally interested in a proceeding, or the person's lawyer full right to be heard according to law". On March 17, 2009, a new code, going into effect on July 1, 2009, was announced requiring "A judge should accord to every person who has a legal interest in a proceeding, and that person’s lawyer, the full right to be heard according to law." The wording was changed from a person "or" their lawyer to a person "and" their lawyer.

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Delievered by SoxBot II (talk) at 20:30, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

DA poll

Ryan, a question: would it be worth adding a reinforcement notice somewhere around the top of the date autoformatting "Responses" section to remind people that the question is about the principle of autoformatting? There are a fair number of responses that are mixing linked dates and autoformatting as one and the same, which may skew the results. Thoughts? --Ckatz_spy 22:02, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I've been thinking about this all day as well - I think it's important that voters are clear what they are voting for. I've gone ahead and added a notice to the top of the responses section. Hopefully that will make things as clear as possible. Ryan Postlethwaite 22:40, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

i've added a suggestion here that perhaps someone should create an editnotice to clarify the point - it might help. Sssoul (talk) 06:26, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Ee, that were a while ago! ☺

I've been doing some reorganisation of my talk archives, and thought I'd have a random look around at the WP world a couple of years ago. And there you are, popping up in this archive, being accused of being a nazi fag (or was it a fag nazi?) getting into arguments… Eeh, them were the days (I remember when it were all fields round 'ere, and aren't the policemen lookin' younger?. Wouldn't it be great if all the inspiring speeches our politicians come up with were so easily lookable-up and fully-non-deniable two years after the event? Just thought you might like a nostalgic look back at those salad days, anyway. How ya doing, mate? Tonywalton  23:18, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Moving response comments

I'm not the greatest fan of moving reponse comments on polling pages (e.g. to here). The point of providing comments (in situ) is that obvious misunderstandings can be read by people who are about to vote—which could perhaps help them to make up their minds. There is no way that anyone (who is about to vote) is going to scroll to the end of the page to read out-of-place comments. This shouldn't be about neatness. Cheers.  HWV258  00:46, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Large essays starting to appear in the voting section

Ryan, two more in the past few hours, (Numbers 90 and 92 in the Support section). Rather long for a vote, don't you think? I wonder what the "Comments on date autoformatting" section is for? Where is the boundary. I'd have though four or five lines maximum.

I see that CKatz removed a much smaller post by HWV258 earlier, and again, but has acted to reinstate the essay (No. 90) I earlier relocated to the Comments section.

I want to take issue with these points. Why are people being allowed a soap box to push poll? If this is not redressed, I'll be expanding my vote into a huge essay, responding to these other essays. It will lead to a migration of long discussions from the talk page and "Comments" section right into the voting sections. Unwieldy and probably an introduction of a whole lot of push polling.

I've posted this at the Poll talk page, too. Tony (talk) 06:48, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Possible canvassing

This also needs your attention. Ohconfucius (talk) 07:23, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

(Copied from the talk page.) --Sapphic (talk) 23:43, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

• I've had a look at this and I believe it is canvassing. I've therefore asked Sapphic not to contact any other users on their talk page for the remainder of the poll. Ryan Postlethwaite 22:23, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

No disrespect, but you're wrong here, Ryan. Maybe I violated some other policy/guideline/whatever (though if that's so, I can't find it anywhere) but WP:CANVAS applies to messages sent to people who have not already participated in a poll. I explain my actions in a lot more detail in the sub-section immediately below. So, unless you can point me at some policy I actually did violate, I'm going to just keep doing what I've been doing. Glad you're feeling better. --Sapphic (talk) 23:35, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy. Your behavior, Sapphic, doesn’t require that everyone go “Gee, we don’t have an explicit rule to cover this new kind of disruption so let’s amend the rules.” Badgering people to change their vote in an RfC when they haven’t asked for help or clarification (or obviously voted in the wrong section or something) isn’t tolerated. Since you are A) not changing a single vote that I can tell, and B) are simply just making a pest or yourself, and C) obviously don’t respond to social pressure, and D) don’t give a damn if you’re blocked, I’ll leave it to some other poor bastard to deal with you. Greg L (talk) 01:56, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

There's no rule to cover the situation because it's not disruption. I just did what people on both sides were talking about, but everybody was too scared to do because they all apparently understand both the purpose and wording of WP:CANVAS. There is no longer any question as to whether the "confused" oppose votes understand what they were voting on. They all now do, and all but one (who, much to my surprise, actually did change his vote) has clarified their position — in non-"confused" terms — on the poll page. Anyway, I proposed a way to end at least the autoformatting part of the debate, over under that "exit strategies" section. All bold. Hard to miss. Go check it out, you might be pleasantly surprised. --Sapphic (talk) 02:14, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Note to all

I'm not very well today. As weird as it sounds, I think I've drunk too much coffee and it's made me feel terrible. I'm sorry for not answering any replies on this talk - I'll get to them as soon as I can tomorrow (although I have work all day). Apologies to everyone that's commented above. Regards, Ryan Postlethwaite 22:34, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Irish coffee? :-)  HWV258  22:57, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Gut wull sun. — neuro 23:47, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Hope ya feel better when you get up. :) (you really didn't miss all that much) — Ched :  Yes?   : ©  00:13, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for all your replies guys - as it happens, it wasn't Irish coffee (but a load of espresso and energy drinks. Needless to say, I've stayed off the stuff today (sort of had to because I felt awful this morning). It was worse than a hangover! :-) Ryan Postlethwaite 22:29, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Meh. Try having a hangover and then trying to cure it with six double ristretti. You end up with a hangover and your hair trying to crawl out of your head because of the caffeine. Urg. Glad you're back. Tonywalton  22:44, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I got drunk on Friday night and still had a headache on Monday. I feel like my trials are being demeaned! :) — neuro 00:49, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

• Ryan. One of the sickest I ever got was trying to get out an order of some ammunition for an overseas order. I was in my mid-20s. At crunch time (machinery was acting up) I drank a boat load of coffee and some No-Doze tablets (caffeine) and worked through the night until sunrise. Then I got sick. Holy smokes I was sick. IMO, it’s not so much the coffee, it’s the energy drinks. Coffee contains something like over a hundred pharmacologically active alkaloids; it’s a complex brew and it’s hard to O.D. on the stuff. But when you spike yourself with a boat load of pure caffeine from energy drinks, you can make yourself feel just like you felt. Greg L (talk) 01:43, 3 April 2009 (UTC)