Misplaced Pages

• Rex, please. You've been carrying on about this for over a year now. Even if you are right about anything now, people are going to oppose you because you're being such an utter nuisance. You've blown your credibility clear to hell. Yes, you're technically more polite than you were for your first two? three? arbitrations; it doesn't mean you're any better behaved or any better justified in your continued determination to own this article. Please find something else to do; all that energy could be devoted to improving dozens of articles in the time you've wasted trying to get individual trivialities memorialized in this article. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 21:03, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

So now all of a sudden, Brinkley is an expert on bandages (one he didn't personally see) and for that reason, his word choice describing an arm wrapping as a "bandage" is a "fact", but his word choice describing the wounds (which he also didn't see) as "minor" is only opinion? How do you arrive at that conclusion? I think Gamaliel (and others) are confusing a "binary" problem with an "analog" one. Allow me to explain. Binary is like a light switch, it's either on or off. Kerry either had a dressing on his arm or he didn't. That's a binary question, the answer to which is yes, he did have a dressing on his arm. However, as to what exactly that dressing ought to be called, that's an analog question. Analog questions are like dimmer switches with many possible positions. so too with the dressing. It's been suggested to be, a) Bacitracin alone, b) Bacitracin with gauze or c)Bacitracin with gauze and bandage. I see now why some have been fighting me on the "dressing" question. They have been trying to eliminate the analog variables of a) and b) thereby forcing the conclusion of c). And since in your mind there is no question that the dressing was in fact a "bandage" you incorrectly think the dressing question is binary, when in fact it's analog. And then you go further and arrive at the confused conclusion that binary questions are questions of fact and analog questions are questions of opinion. Suffice it to say, the same biographer (Brinkley) has gone on record for each question, both of which are analog questions and to both of which, his answers to are (unless he cites a Primary Source) nor more than his opinion. Even a blind hog will find an acorn once and a while and I have found one this time. Whether for "bandage" or "wound", the "opinion/fact" dichotomy is false and does not suffice to block "minor wound" from sourcing to this Brinkley quote. Rex071404 21:12, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

bandage is a "fact", minor is a "characterization". i'm quite certain i saw where brinkley also calls kerry a "hero", shall we insert that characterization as well? i thought not. we have already covered that some people think the wound was too minor to merit the purple heart ... we we note that here and then point to the whole freaking article on it. Derex @ 21:23, 11 November 2005 (UTC)\

Derex, please note the exact words of the highly credible and authoritative Brinkley "The fact is...". Is Brinkley lying? Is he not telling us a "fact"? Rex071404 21:25, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

The fact is that you are willfully obtuse. I'm not even going to discuss this or any of the rest of this trivial nonsense with you again. I'm tire of you wasting everyone's time. Put it in the article; I'll revert it. Take out bandage; I'll revert it. Same to the rest of the picayune quibbles you got banned for a year ago. I again note that the arbcom made a finding that you were POV pushings. I'll revert, flat out. No questions asked, no quarter given. As I've said before, you've squandered all right to AGF. Take me to arbcom, I'm begging you. Do we understand each other? Derex @ 21:33, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Brinkley is not an expert on bandages, nor is he a firsthand witness. But he is a perfectly legitimate source of information on Kerry's life and in this case you have offered no source to dispute this particular fact provided by Brinkley other than your own speculation. Gamaliel 21:30, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

In this passage,I am not arguing against "bandage". Rather, I am arguing for "minor" and to quote you "in this case you have offered no source to dispute this particular fact provided by Brinkley other than your own speculation". Rex071404 21:34, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

It's not a fact. It's his opinion. Gamaliel 21:43, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

• Based on what standard of determining that? Rex071404 21:46, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

• I don't we should reject use of the word "minor" as being an opinion. If we do then we need to be consistent with our treatment of all subjective adjectives and take them out of the article unless they are within a quoted source. We routinely use adjectives in this and other articles. Many of these adjectives are completely unsourced and require judgement calls to be made by editors. Here are some examples from a recent version of the article:

1. Kerry's family returned to their home state of Massachusetts shortly after his birth.

Who decides what constitutes "shortly"?

2. Summers were spent at the Forbes family estate in France, and Kerry enjoyed much greater extravagance there than he had come to know in Massachusetts.

Who decides it was much greater extravagance, not simply greater extravagance? Who decided it was extravagance to begin with?

3. When the Germans fled, they bombed Les Essarts and burnt it down.

Are we sure the Germans fled? Maybe they were just attacking in a different direction. "Fled" could be considered POV by some.

There are many other examples in just this one article where we use a ssubjective adjective. I picked the first three I found. The word "minor" is far better supported by the evidence here than any of these above three examples. I think we should use the phrase "minor wound" in the article. Johntex\ 22:05, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

1. Minor is un-necessary as the reader can judge for themselves the seriousness of the injury from the surronding context. Not so with "shortly". If you'd like to give a number of months in the surrounding context, then "shortly" would also be superfluous.

2. Again, if you provide some examples in the surrounding context of the amenities which afforded "extravagance" at places A & B, then the adjective becomes superfluous.

3. Whatever.

4. Intent also matters. The thing that pisses me off is that Rex is trying to insert characterizations in order to further push his POV. The arcom explicitly made that finding. There is absolutely no need to insert a characterization here, when the facts can be succintly provided. If anyone challenges the neutrality of "much more extravagant", then we either ought to strike it or replace it with facts so that the reader can judge for him/herself. Derex @ 22:18, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi Derex, thank you for your thoughtful reply. Here are two more that I am wondering about:

4. In addition to Kerry's four D's in his freshman year, he received one D in his sophomore year. He did not fail any courses.

If we list the D's, do we need to say he didn't fail any courses? Wouldn't that be obvious by omission?

5. Kerry received several combat medals during this tour, including the Silver Star, Bronze Star, and three Purple Hearts.

We list his medals, so why do we alsso need the word "several"? Why not just stick with the list? Johntex\ 22:33, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I can't imagine why we would state that he didn't fail any courses. I think the sentence would work better as "Kerry recieved four D's his freshmen year and one the following year." Clearly if we're going to list D's, then we'd list F's. But this gets a little silly, should we list his A's, B's, & C's for each year too? Also, no we don't need "several", just say he "received the following combat medals". Just be bold and change obvious stuff like that, there's no need to ask me. Derex @ 00:30, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

"Minor wound" has been proved. This debate is over. Time to move on

Derex, in addition to obviously being angry at me (see above) you are also confused about this. Other than Kerry, Brinkley is the most informed person in regards to Kerry's wounds. Indeed, he made a detailed examination of every aspect of Kerry's service, so much so, that he was able to state as a fact (so you claim) that there was a "bandage" on Kerry's arm. If we accept Brinkley's knowledge of Kerry to be sufficiently accurate and encompassing that he can arrive at "bandage" as a fact, there is no way we can then turn around and say that his knowledge of Kerry's wounds is limited - especially since he wrote about all of them. Now as to the "hero" point, that is rightly deemed opinion because unlike his expert knowledge of Kerry personally, we have no information to suggest that Brinkley is an expert on heroes. Likewise, since we have no evidence that Brinkley is an expert on "luck", what we can only take from this sentence "The fact is, John Kerry was exceedingly lucky in Vietnam that his three wounds were minor," is that the "fact" which Brinkley is referring to is the "minor" nature of the wounds, not that Kerry was "lucky". Brinkley is an expert on Kerry's service history, including his wounds, not on luck per se. Brinkley's statement on "bandage" can only be taken as proof of that "fact" if he is an expert regarding Kerry's service details. Likewise, since he is, his statement regarding the wound severity is also to be taken as proof of that "fact". No amount of threatening me with reverts or saying I get no AFG will change the truth here, which is: I have provided a verbatim quote which directly speaks to the issue at hand, from a recognized authority, as cited in a reliable source. And further, this verbatim quote unequivocally supports the use of the term "minor wound". Furthermore, if we were to go with what I recommend, there is no likelihood that the reader will get a POV message. I recommend this:

During the night of December 2, 1968 and early morning of December 3, Kerry was in charge of a small boat operating near a peninsula north of Cam Ranh Bay together with a Swift boat (PCF-60). Kerry's boat surprised a group of men unloading sampans at a river crossing, who began running and failed to obey an order to stop. As the men fled, Kerry and his crew of two sailors opened fire on the sampans and destroyed them, then rapidly left. During this encounter, Kerry suffered a minor shrapnel wound in the left arm above the elbow. Later, medical staff removed the shrapnel and applied bacitracin dressing. The next day, his arm bandaged, Kerry returned to Swift boat patrol duty. During the 2004 election, this incident and Kerry's Purple Heart for it were disputed by some critics. Also in 2004, the Navy conducted a review of the existing documentation and determined that Kerry's medals were properly approved.

Please note: Even though Snopes is less valid than WAPO, I have re-inserted it because some editors like it and it because they want it to support the "return to duty" and the "sampan" story. Also note that since we are using Brinkley for "minor", others here are entitled to use him for "bandage" which I have also re-inserted. Suffice it to say, now that I have proven "minor wound" using the standards set out by the wiki, it's time for the obstructionists here who promise to revert my every edit (such as Derex here) to desist from what clearly is a personal threat (and editing to make a point) and get with the program. I have won this debate. "Minor wound" has been proved to the standards of this wiki which pertain to truth of facts. Anyone here who says otherwise, must cite a wiki guideline or principle which proves otherwise. I have proved "minor" by wiki standards. To those who claim it's only Brinkley's "opinion" and won't even concede it to be expert opinion (in regards to Kerry, Brinkley is an expert), then I call on you to put up or shut up. I challenge you to cite here, now, one or more wiki guidelines which make clear the standard you are using to adjudge this quote as invalid due to being non-expert opinion (as opposed to expert opinion regarding Kerry) instead of fact (arrived at after the lengthy processs of writing a book). Anyone who can't or won't do this, has no basis on which to object to "minor wound" going into the article. Rex071404 22:48, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

And if that's all too confusing, let's make it simple. The wound is minor. How do we know? Because Brinkley is an expert (on Kerry and his wounds) and he said so. If a properly informed credible expert says something, absent superior proof, we take the expert's statement as true. That's how you prove Fact ("A statement of an event or condition where the statement can be proven and shown to be correct (or disproven and thus shown to be incorrect) on the basis of some evidence, generally by other facts") and I have done that here. Rex071404 23:19, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Your justification of "minor" but not "hero" based upon dismissing expertise on "heroes" is invalid. I'm sure Brinkley knows what "hero" means and thus applied it from his personal knowledge of Kerry's performance. According to your logic, either "minor" and "hero" (which are 2 subjective characterizations, unlike "bandage") go in, or both come out. --kizzle 23:25, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

And by the way, citing reliable sources does not necessarily mean you need to adopt them into the official tone of the article. --kizzle 23:28, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Kizzle, you may be right in that Brinkley's assessments of Kerry's actions as "hero" may be based on expert knowledge of the subject matter of heroes and Kerry's action in that context. I'd like to see your source, but if indeed you have a valid source and provided you can work it in in a manner that is not too POV, I would agree to support it. From what I know about Kerry's history, any "hero" designation must come from the incident where he pulled that man from the river or from the Silver Star episode. That being the case, if hero is supported by proper citation and you agree to work it in in the right place (and that place is not 1st PH), like I said, I would agree to it. Something like, Kerry's actions in pulling Rasmussen from the river were heroic and earned him a Bronze Star, would not be objectionable with the right Brinkley source. Rex071404 23:33, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I have a problem with including either "minor" or "hero" uncited into the official tone of the article. For such a short summary paragraph, I also have a problem with citing opinions ( as opposed to citing things like bandage or objective facts that draw more detail to the subject and not subjective characterizations ). Leave those for the daughter article. --kizzle 23:53, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Kizzle, it is true that "heroic" is mostly understood in terms of admiration, which is very hard to objectively assess. That being the case, getting a source for that would be very tough. On the other hand, wounds are assesed based on levels of severity which have clear boundaries of delination. For example, difference between a "simple" fracture and a "compound" fracture is not subjective. Following this analogy, if Kerry's had twisted his arm to the point of injury, he would have at most a sprained shoulder. The term "minor wound" is no more essentially subjective than the term "simple fracture" or "compund fracture". Perhaps if we had not previously been caught up in the pissing contest between SBVT and Kerry, there would be no emotional attachment to the word "minor". The point is that heroics are very hard to define, but levels of injury have recognized lines of demarcation which are certainly clear. If we were calling Kerry's wound a laceration which is the precise medical term, there would be no question that it was minor. Kerry got no sutures and no butterfly bandage. Absent those, it's impossible to think that he had anything other than a minor laceration. US military medical treatment would not leave out sutures and/or butterfly bandages if it was anything more severe. The tug of war has always been over SBVT's derision regarding "wound" as an exaggeration. Yet at this point, with everyone agreed that no allegations from SBVT are going in, we do not have to over compensate towards avoiding emotional triggers. In the current context, the dry assesment of "minor" is devoid of any POV bias. Perhaps we should say "Kerry suffered a minor laceration shrapnel wound in the left arm above the elbow". This would make things 100% clear that "minor" refers only to the degree of the injury and is not being dismissive of the "merit" of the wound.

Rex071404 00:48, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Ahh, thus we come to the fundamental premise that we simply disagree on, that "minor" is "no more essentially subjective than the term "simple fracture" or "compound fracture". Here's one site:

• Simple Fracture: an uncomplicated fracture in which the broken bones to not pierce the skin
• Compound Fracture: bone fracture associated with lacerated soft tissue or an open wound
• Minor Wound: No definition found

Here's another:

• Simple Fracture: A bone fracture that causes little or no damage to the surrounding soft tissues.
• Compound Fracture: A fracture in which broken bone fragments lacerate soft tissue and protrude through an open wound in the skin
• Minor Wound: Sorry, no words matching "minor wound" were found.

Clearly, there is a difference between "minor wound", "simple fracture", and "compound fracture". The latter two concepts name specific objective criteria (inside/outside body)for their inclusion, while the first term is simply a subjective characterization with no clear and distinct characteristics for its application or use. This is why "minor wound" doesn't show up as a term in these searches and does not reach the level of authoritative medical terminology that you claim it does. At the very least, the distinction between simple and compound fracture is not on the same level as "minor wound" as you claim it is. You acknowledge that simple/compound distinction is not objective, then proceed to say "minor wound" is "no more objective", which I assume means you're implying a similar level of objectivity to "minor wound" as you did to the previous two terms. If this is true, then tell me what specific objective criteria merits a minor wound, making sure not to quote simply a home-care guide like last time? --kizzle 02:28, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

• I think all this is getting off the point. Here is why we should say "minor wound":

1. We have several pieces of evidence that support the fact it was a minor wound. These range from use of the word minor by Brinkley, to the fact that Kerry returned to duty the next day, etc. I'll not take up space to paste them all back in again here.
2. We have zero pieces of evidence and zero claims by anyone saying the wound was not minor.
3. Based upon the above, a reasonable person concludes that the evidence says "minor wound" has a factual bassis. Then we ask ourselves if there is any reason to exclude the word "minor", that leads us to:
4. Is the word helpful to the reader? Yes, Using the word "minor" is helpful to the reader so that the reader does not have to go and read side articles, read the definition of specific types of dressings etc.
5. Does this piece of description take up too much room? No. It is one word. In fact, if we use the phrase "minor wound" then maybe we can drop several other words and actually make the paragraph smaller.
6. Does the word push a POV? No. The only explanation I have seen for how this word is POV is that it somehow makes his Purple Heart medal illegitamate, but that does not hold up to scrutiny. Regardless of whether the wound was major or minor, it still qualified for a Purple Heart, so calling it a minor wound does nothing to revoke the legitimacy of the medal.

Therefore, the phrase "minor wound" is factual, referencable, undisputed-by-reputable-sources, helpful-to-the-reader, short, concise, and NPOV. We should use it in the article. Johntex\ 00:15, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you Johntex, I agree with you 100% Rex071404 00:23, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Disagree, for reasons elucidated above. Derex @ 00:32, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

• Thanks Derex, when you say "reasons elucidated above" are you referring to your statement about Rex continually harping on this issue? Johntex\ 00:37, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Of course not, though, my goodness, he certainly does. I'm referring to my "thoughtful" comments in the previous section, for which you thanked me. Derex @ 00:43, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Something is irking me here. Everyone said "let's stop discussing this with Rex" when we did the vote. And now. We're all discussing it with Rex. Stop. It's pointless. Ignore him. He's just trying to unsurp consensus. Once he starts playing a different tune, we'll listen again. And no Rex, I'm not going to help you. Sorry. But even from your comments on my talk page, it was obvious that I'd just be there to feed you lines. No thanks. --Woohookitty 00:51, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Shame on you woohoo. You know darn well that the consensus of the other day is limited to choosing "wound" over "injury". Therefore, for you to advocate others to ignore me and refuse dialog, is simply rotten. Frankly, I was foolish to think you capable of honest and fair dialog or worth reaching out to for help. If you are going to advocate a dialog embargo against me, I am pretty sure you are eligile for sanctions. Frankly, if I had the power to ban you for 24 hours for that, I'd consider it. You are just totally out of line here. Rex071404 00:59, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Rex, I'd be please to nominate you for admin, if you would accept. Then you could ban Woohookitty. You'll also find some people who need blocking listed over on the noticeboard (User:Rex071404_2). Derex @ 01:47, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

From the man who has been banished once by ArbCom and once on his own. Besides Rex, look above. I wasn't the first one to say what I said. Look at all of those stop signs. "This issue is now closed. Please do not discuss this issue with Rex071404. It simply gives him an angle to come back and repeat himself ad nausaum. He has talked the issue to death and is in a minority of one". That was the text with the stop sign. Please do not discuss this issue with Rex071404 is exactly what I said with different language. Doesn't matter. --Woohookitty 01:12, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

What kind of excuse is that? Those others were wrong, so you join them? Rex071404 01:23, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Woohookitty about not discussing old issues anymore. I'll just add my response to a new (hypothetical) example given by Rex. A statement like "Kerry's actions in pulling Rasmussen from the river were heroic and earned him a Bronze Star" would also violate NPOV. It's a sound opinion, but still an opinion. There is no form of citation, to Brinkley or anyone else, that would convert it into a fact. JamesMLane 02:04, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Given that the Bronze Star Medal is awarded for "bravery, heroism or meritorious service", it wouldn't sound too NPOV to me to use phrasing like that you have quoted. Saying a medal of heroism was awarded for a heroic act is pretty safe; I must say, it's also rather redundant, though. —HorsePunchKid→龜 03:19, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

In many instances, HPK, I would agree with you. The problem here is that Kerry's opponents argued that the Bronze Star was improperly awarded. Their allegation was garbage, in my opinion, but Misplaced Pages has to be fair to different opinions, even political smears. Therefore, we couldn't simply assert as a fact that Kerry acted heroically. The NPOV version would be that Kerry was awarded this medal and to quote the criteria, or to say that the Navy concluded that Kerry acted heroically. I agree with you about the redundancy. The version that's NPOV and succinct is to report that he was awarded the Bronze Star and wikilink it so a reader can read the criteria. JamesMLane 10:11, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Closure Motion

In parliamentary procedure there is a thing called a closure motion which is used to end endless debate on an issue. Once proposed two things happen.

• all discussion ends immediately, with not another word said on the issue.
• a vote takes place immediately on whether to take a decision.

• If the vote is yes, lets take a decision, that vote to take a decision takes place immediately without comment;
• If the vote is no, the whole issue is dropped without comment.

In either case no more debate takes place.

Maybe using a version of that system might end this painful discussion once and for all. So I am proposing we follow that procedure. It would have three parts:

• everyone agree to bide by the agreed set of rules
• we vote on whether to take a decision
• if yes, we vote on alternatives, (one by Derex, one by Rex) if no the discussion ends until 1st January.

Derex here, why me? How about we just vote on the version as it existed a month or so back, pre-Rex-reincarnation.

Just a suggestion. By all means propose that version. Once there is a clear alternative that is all that matters. FearÉIREANN\ 02:48, 12 November 2005 (UTC)