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	World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result January 16, 2007 Peer review Reviewed January 2, 2008 Good article nominee Not listed
Current status: Former good article nominee

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To-do list for World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2010-09-11 Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Cleanup : *The citations have got out of hand. The various variations of the {{cite}} template need to be used, but there seem to be a great number which are imperfectly cited. Please pick up any that simply show as a url and visit (eg) cite web to determine the most appropriate template to put inside the ref. This is reinforced by the most recent Peer Review comment about consistency. The full set of templates are at Misplaced Pages:Citation templates The ref for In response to concerns about the destruction of evidence, W. Gene Corley, head of the Building Performance Assessment Team on the site, stated, that "The team has had full access to the scrap yards and to the site and has been able to obtain numerous samples." at http://www.house.gov/science/hearings/full02/mar06/corley.htm does not lead to the expected story This article makes no reference to the only cited scientific examination of actual materials for the presence of explosive materials claimed by supporters of the controlled demolition theory. That study by Harrit et al. found the presence of unexploded nanothermite materials. Copyedit : * From Peer Review One thing I would note is that grammar and phrasing are very important for "Featured Articles." I noticed a few phrases in the introduction that were awkward at best. Example: "The collapse of 7 World Trade Center (not hit by any plane)..." In this case, the interjection would flow much better if it was "which was not hit by a plane", or perhaps it should be removed entirely. The whole article should be examined for tone by a seasoned editor. Expand : *Fix this reference: Griffin, David Ray in The Hidden History (will fix ref). Other : *Continually monitor the Peer Review feedback, discuss it and incorporate the agreed items, making sure feedback is left on the Peer Review page Examine these references and determine whether they fit and where they fit. and add them if appropriate, giving feedback on completion

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This subarticle is kept separate from the main article, 9/11 conspiracy theories, due to size or style considerations.

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September 2006 – October 2006 October 2006 – November 2006 December 2006 – January 2007 February 2007 – July 2007 August 2007 – December 2007 January 2008 – August 2008

NIST only a fraction of the Engineering community

To say that NIST represents the Engineering community is incorrect. I represents only a small fraction of the community as a whole. There is no poll of the community and we have justification for assuming anything about the larger body of engineers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.185.111.14 (talk) 15:49, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

The article cites several reliable sources for the statement that the CDH is rejected by engineers, and you haven't provided any references which say otherwise. The engineers who have spoken in favour of the CDH represent a small minority. Hut 8.5 19:44, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

The response to B7 report

The demolition proponents have responded to NIST in a detailed letter. The letter has now been posted in numerous locations. It makes no sense to remove the positions of demolition proponents from the page claiming to be about the demolition theory. Please do not remove this letter. 152.131.10.133 (talk) 21:15, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

The claim that these sources are now "unreliable" is clearly grasping at straws as a rationale for not allowing the sentence to be added. These sites -- 911blogger.com, 911truth.org, stj911.org -- are all over wikipedia on the 9/11 pages. Since when did they suddenly become unreliable? bov (talk) 21:33, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

They're not reliable. I think we've been allowing some slack for messages apparently from and claiming to be from a source reliable among truthers. I'm not sure it's in keeping with Misplaced Pages policies, but I'm willing to let it stay in the CDH article, with some corrections. It should not be in a non-fringe article. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:38, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

It's interesting that defenders of the official theory on here are trying to hide or bury the challenges to it made by the actual people this article claims to be about, with handwaving about "reliability" and "truthers". The exact same article is posted all over the internet, so the assumption that somehow all these blogs faked this letter, yet none of the 18 authors has noticed or commented, is pretty much as fringe conspiracy theory as it gets. It's like the rightwingers who attack gays and then turn out to be gay themselves . . . Also, tacking the sentence that includes this info onto a long-winded paragraph about the official report, and removing it's date, is another time-honored wikipedia tactic to obfuscate awareness. bov (talk) 20:28, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

It's fascinating that users Hut and Arthur Rubin continue to delete the DATE from a single sentence about the NIST submission comments by demolition proponents. They have no basis for removing it except the need to hide the relevance of it. See here. bov (talk) 20:24, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Explain the relevance of the date. I don't see it, other than the date being after that of the draft report, and recent enough that no one outside the truth movement would have looked at it yet. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:37, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Engineering community = Zdeněk Bažant?

I spent some time reading this article and tried to figure out what was meant by the engineering community. I came to the conclusion that this community equals Zdeněk Bažant (with the possible addition of 9/11 Commission). Is this correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilkkah (talk • contribs) 15:00, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

No - it refers to engineers as a collective body. Hut 8.5 15:16, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I think there should be more citations in the introductory chapter, in that case. Imho. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilkkah (talk • contribs) 15:50, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Why? Is there something wrong with the references we have? Bear in mind that the introduction is meant to summarise the rest of the article, and anything sourced in another part of the article doesn't need to be sourced again in the introduction. Hut 8.5 17:26, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

As a WP reader I was quite confused and had to spend a lot of time finding out what was meant by the engineering community. Basically it just links to Bažant paper (in the first chapter). Could be a good idea to elaborate what is meant by the engineering community (imho, again). Didn't mean anything was wrong with the references, just wanted to see more of those in the first chapter. Ilkkah (talk) 22:29, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

The Bazant paper is the reference cited for the information, it's not a link to improve the reader's understanding. I suppose we could link to Scientific community or Scientific consensus. Hut 8.5 06:36, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, not reader's understanding. Then I missed the point of WP. I thought it was about reader's understanding of things. Ilkkah (talk) 09:23, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you've missed the point. It's so the reader can verify the information in the article, not for the reader's understanding. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 12:35, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I think it has to be both (yes I checked this http://en.wikipedia.org/Reference :-) ... OK, my initial question was trollish, sorry about it. I wanted to understand the engineering community comment, and after considerable research I think I can see why it's there. So I'm not complaining because the comment is there (a couple of days ago I wasn't agreeing on it that much, but maybe I have changed my views a bit), I just wished some more backing/explaining/references for it. Ilkkah (talk) 21:46, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

We can all wish for better references. The problem is that, as the mainstream engineering community generally thinks this theory (or theories) has (or have) been discredited, they're not writing about it any more. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:33, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I've linked the term to Scientific community. If necessary I can add two more references to that sentence. Hut 8.5 08:05, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

You can't link it to the scientific community because they are fence sitting on the subject. I think what Ilkkah is talking about is that using the term engineering community should require more than one cite especially as that one couldn't pass a peer review. I suggest citing at least two peer reviewed papers to prove the term is correctly used. Wayne (talk) 15:41, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Explantion for Diagonally Cut Steel Girder

I did not see the diagonally cut steel girder mentioned on this page. This image has been floating around the internet for some time and it has not been explained. (http://media.portland.indymedia.org/images/2006/06/341239.jpg) How did the steel girder get cut at a diagonal angle. The official NIST explanation says the building collapse began with one column. If this girder was not cut by clean up crews then how was it cut, the collapsing building would not have cut it in such a fasion. This potentially crucial piece of evidence needs to be on this page and it needs to be fully explained. 68.229.87.128 (talk) 19:30, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

In order to add information to Misplaced Pages articles you need to have references for your claims, can you provide some? I can't see anything in the report saying that only one column failed, can you provide a specific reference for that as well? Hut 8.5 20:00, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I think you're confused, 68. The NIST report says that building 7 fell because one vertical failed, followed by others. However, the NIST report also says that the two people who were rescued from building 7 after the initial explosions there were rescued after one of the towers fell. The newscasts of their rescue were broadcast before the towers fell. Also, Bazant claims that "the engineering community" agrees with the OTC. However, the real engineering community, as a whole, appears to be just as unconscious as the rest of the population, so Bazant is just spouting baseless propaganda. Neither Bazant nor NIST should be regarded as a reliable souce. We should change the attribution to something more explicit, such as "Bazant claims that the engineering community rejects everything but the official conspiracy theory." FEMA seems to be slightly more reliable.

You will note, however, the recently melted metal around the edges of the cut. Most of the columns were hastily shipped to China and melted down, but some pieces were retained for various reasons. For the ones for which the recently molten metal was recovered, however, it has been shown to be mostly iron with traces of aluminum, sulfur, potassium and manganese, but no chromium, so it comes from some source other than the column itself. Wowest (talk) 06:53, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

FEMA? Reliable? And NIST report clearly stated that the debris from WTC 7 was made available to researchers. If they weren't actually looked at, it must mean the researchers didn't see the need. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:01, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Are you seriously arguing that speculations on the meaning of a contextless photo on the internet are reliable, but a world-renowned engineer writing in a peer reviewed journal or a 10,000 page report produced by hundreds of experts aren't? We have no idea who took this photo, where or when it was taken, or what it is depicting. Including the picture with this information would be pure original research. Hut 8.5 13:35, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

This crops up on Misplaced Pages whenever brainwashing is involved. We have something called mind-control cults. These groups claim to be religions. They have some fairly predictable, but strange beliefs. You can expect, right off the bat that the leader of the group has a unique relationship with God. Maybe he IS God. One guy claimed to be "greater than God," and another, "greater than or equal to God." Some of the members -- or casualties -- got to be that way because they participated in the "sacrament" of LSD in the leader's presence. Some learned to "pray" or "meditate" in a certain way that deprived them of their ability to criticize what they were told. The biggest issue, here, is the practice -- the hypnotic drugs or unwitting self-hypnotic "meditation" or "prayer."

So, some of these groups got together and bribed experts in the relatively small community of scholars of sociology of religion. They got to go to special conferences, all expenses paid. They got consulting fees. Nothing was stated explicitly, but there were certain expectations, which were met. Suddenly "New Religious Movements" were good and special, even if they were neither new nor religious. However, when someone gets deprogrammed from the practice (not always possible), then they recognize that they believed something they were told with no real proof. Maybe they had an astonishing "religious" experience, but that does not make the explanation they were given true, and they have no proof that the leader really was the Lord.

So, who are the main suspects here? Al Queda and several domestic and/or foreign organizations. Is NIST funded by one of the principal suspects? Yes. In fact, it's subordinate to the Bush White House. Can we believe what it says? Maybe. We can certainly extend tentative suspension of disbelief to some of what NIST has to say, but when it contradicts known facts, we have to be suspicious.

Bezant? He says things he has no way of knowing. Is he intentionally lying when he talks about the "community of engineers?" We have no way of knowing that, and he is an expert, but when over 500 lesser experts disagree with him, we have to evaluate what he says objectively. In that context, we really should say "according to Bazant, the community of engineers rejects...." It's about HONESTY.Wowest (talk) 14:07, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

What you are arguing for has no place in Misplaced Pages. Wild conspiracy theories can't be used to evaluate the credibility of sources, and the sources in question pass WP:RS with flying colours. The federal government isn't considered a "suspect" by anyone except fringe theorists and our article must reflect this per WP:UNDUE. Even if we take the claims of expert support from the CD supporters at face value they don't represent anything more than a tiny fraction of the hundreds of thousands of experts in the fields in question. This is still original synthesis to advance a viewpoint. Hut 8.5 19:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Question

Yeah, kinda new, where should I add these links: http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0711/banovic-0711.html They seem relevant, but I'm not sure where they would go. Thanks Soxwon (talk) 15:35, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

You could put them in an external link section or cite them as references somewhere. There is an article on the collapse of the World Trade Center, they might be better off there. Hut 8.5 19:42, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I tried to add them as references, but it didn't seem right, I think the external link is what I was looking for. Thank you Soxwon (talk) 04:49, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Neutral Point of View on Articles on Fringe Topics

I don't know if this is a problem with this article specifically, but I posted this on some other articles relating to 9/11 conspiracy theories and thought it might be helpful here.

In articles on fringe topics, we are not supposed represent the fringe theory as if it is a legitimate viewpoint or on some kind of equal footing. Instead, we're supposed to fairly represent all sides of an issue per reliable sources. If reliable sources reflect a particular viewpoint, then we're supposed to represent that viewpoint as well. In a case such as this article, I doubt if there are many (if any) reliable sources that claim the WTC was destroyed via controlled demolition. Even if there are any, weight should be roughly proportional to the preponderance of reliable sources backing that perspective.

As a result, there might be a WP:NPOV issue with this article. This article should treat this topic in the same manner as reliable sources do. Thus, if NIST, Popular Mechanics, the BBC, ABC News, Time Magazine, etc. regard the controlled demolition conspiracy theory as outlandish bunk unsupported by factual evidence, that that's how this article should be written. To do otherwise, is against WP:NPOV.

In other words, the viewpoints of reliable sources are the standard by which we write our articles and judge its neutrality.

A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:39, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I didnt think a conspiracy theory page was a reliable source anyway since its not based on factOttawa4ever (talk) 16:38, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

This line is deceptive

"Engineers were in fact initially surprised by the collapses and at least one considered explosives as a possible explanation. " I think this line leaves the impression that engineers were surprised by the collapses after the planes struck, when, I believe, the articles themselves expressed surprise at 9/11 generally. Additionally, we should be clear that when we say that engineers considered explosives as an explanation, they considered the explanation and found it to be absurd. Bonewah (talk) 21:32, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Much agreed, Also source is from 8 days after 9/11. It would seem to be pretty unrealistic that an engineer could accurately assess accuraetly the event in that short of time Ottawa4ever (talk) 20:29, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Aude compiled a list of engineers' statements about the collapse in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 here, most of them don't indicate surprise that the towers fell. I agree this ought to be removed. Hut 8.5 20:41, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you need to read Bazants paper again. Quote:To structural engineers, the collapse of the World Trade Center (WTC) towers on 9/11/2001 came as the greatest surprise since the collapse of Tacoma Narrows Bridge in 1940. Wayne (talk) 08:10, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

A very similar sentence was removed from Collapse of the World Trade Center because it did not represent the majority of the sources. To be consistent we should remove it from here. Hut 8.5 08:32, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

It does not have to "represent the majority of the sources". The claim is not disputed so as long as it is reliably sourced then it is relevant and should stay. Wayne (talk) 08:47, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

The sentence is accurate. Everyone was surprised at 911 but that is not what the engineers are refering to. It is clear that they were surprised by the collapses themselves from an engineering viewpoint as it was believed to be virtually impossible given the state of pre 911 knowledge. If such was not the case then there would have been no need for NIST to investigate as NIST themselves admit. That at least one engineer considered explosives is not disputed and that he changed his mind later does not alter the accuracy of the sentence. Don't give conspiracy theorists ammunition to support their claims of censorship guys. Wayne (talk) 16:49, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Evidence of Explosion: What Kind of Bomb Could Have Pulverized Everything?

From the article: "Additionally, the production and expansion of the enormous dust clouds that covered Manhattan after the collapses has also been taken as an indication of an additional source of energy, such as explosives. Some proponents suggest that the energy required for this expansion alone (ignoring the energy needed to slice the steel and pulverize the concrete and other materials) exceeded the gravitational energy available by 9.7 × 1012 J to 4.2 × 1013 J. This corresponds to extra energy of about 2000 to 10000 tons of TNT, or 40 to 200 times the yield of the most powerful conventional bomb. NIST attributes these clouds to the ejection of air from compressed parts of the building."

The reference #23 is broken. That's NIST's POV . . . sounds incredible, unbelievable to ALL skeptics of the Government's POV.

No one has adequetly explained where two 100-story buildings vanished to except "the enormous dust clouds that covered Manhattan" several inches deep in some places. Also note the tiny debris pile of mostly steel beams . . . like where's all the broken glass, concrete, steel desks, etc?

Since there was no radioactivity at Ground Zero, it seems obvious to me (and many 9/11 researchers), some kinda non-radioactive bomb destroyed the Twin Towers. I'm NOT an expert on bombs but it appears likely some kind of Thermobaric bomb was used. Here's what a 9/11 skeptic wrote about Thermobaric bombs at the WTC if U Google, "Thermobaric" & "WTC" you will find others saying a bomb such as this brougnt down the WTCs.

A reference is also needed for this sentence in the above-quoted paragraph: "This corresponds to extra energy of about 2000 to 10000 tons of TNT, or 40 to 200 times the yield of the most powerful conventional bomb." Raquel Baranow (talk) 16:09, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay, you've restored the WP:SOAPy content that I previously removed as a misuse of this talk page. The next step is I am giving you the WP:ARB9/11 warning notification. If you continue using Misplaced Pages as a Truther chatroom, you'll swiftly be banned from these pages. Jehochman 16:34, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I suggest a new Topic catagory in the article discussing Thermobaric_weapon Bombs.Raquel Baranow (talk) 16:55, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

If you are proposing a specific change to the article, please specify what it is, along with sources. Hut 8.5 17:10, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm suggesting we have a new section in the article explaining the likelyhood that a Thermobaric bomb pulverized the Twin Towers.

I'm also saying that citations are needed for one sentence (see above) and that the link to reference 23 is broken. Raquel Baranow (talk) 18:48, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but what do you want to put in this section? And which sources back it up? Hut 8.5 19:08, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I've fixed the link and added a template requesting a citation to the claim. Hut 8.5 19:27, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

What page number in reference link #23 explains why there was a tiny debris pile and dust several inches thick throughout lower Manhattan?

I'm suggesting a topic in the article discussing the likely-hood of bombs in the WTC. Google: "Thermobaric" & "WTC" you will find others saying a bomb brought down the WTCs. Raquel Baranow (talk) 20:32, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I Googled "Thermobaric" and "WTC". Admittedly I did not check every single reference, but in general, all I got back were just a bunch of crazy 9/11 conpiracy sites. Misplaced Pages doesn't write articles based on insane conspiracy theory web sites. Instead, we rely on reliable sources. Do you have any reliable sources that actually claim that thermobaric bombs were used to pulverize the Twin Towers? If not, it doesn't belong in the article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 04:22, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

If there aren't any "reliable" sources to explain why there is such a small debris pile (no broken glass, desks, etc. from two 100-story buildings) and several inches of dust throughout Manhattan. Then what are U going to do? Ignore the elephant in the room as if the evidence for something unusual isn't there? Obviously bombs were planted in the WTC's which pulverized the buldings. Check out these pics for evidence of explosion. Raquel Baranow (talk) 15:55, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

If you want to include something in the article, you have to provide sources to back it up. That is how Misplaced Pages works. Simply saying "It's obvious" doesn't cut it. Flickr images can't be used as sources by the way. Hut 8.5 17:01, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

O.K. Raquel -- you have valid eye-witness accounts of various phenomena, such as the absence of any office equipment even as large as a telephone. The question is whether commercially available DVD's of firemen and other eyewitness constitutes a Misplaced Pages "Reliable Source." I don't see why it shouldn't. That would appear to have about the same status as a book. If we see an identifiable fireman on a commercially available DVD making a statement, it should be clear that he made the statement. If the fireman didn't publish the DVD himself, then we have a third party source that he made the statement. However, you need to CITE the source. You can't just assume that someone else understands what you're referring to.

On the other hand, this "thermobaric" theory is pure speculation. If we examine the available physical and video evidence, it's clear (1) that the second tower hit was leaning out over the street and about to topple when an unidentified energy source (2) dessicated and pulverized the concrete in the upper floors resulting in "pyroclastic" clouds of material finer than a human hair. Subsequently, the structural metal in the upper floors was "pancaked" together into what appears,in the available photograph (3) , as a "diamond" shape , which is also moved toward the center of the structure. Finally, the upper floors fell into the lower floors which had previously supported them, but with all of their weight now concentrated in the point of the "diamond" at the center of the underlying structure. Then the tower fell. That's pretty clear from the pictures, but are the pictures obtainable by Misplaced Pages? Each of (1), (2) and (3) is a separate photograph, and I've only seen (3) once, myself. I have some questions about its authenticity, actually.

The scholarly debate here is whether the steel in the floors below the point of impact should have had enough resiliency to resist the force of gravity on the disconnected upper section. The other issue is where the energy came from to pulverize the concrete to such a degree. However, the scholars raising these questions are not, for the most part, doing so in mainstream scientific journals.

Additionally, you can't really explain what is shown in the photographs without engaging in "original research." It is necessary either to find a "reliable source" who reports the explanation or to write a book or article which is published by a "reliable source" so that you can quote yourself. Otherwise, even if you can get appropriate releases for the three photographs, that's all you have -- three photographs. Wowest (talk) 06:42, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

There's lotsa good evidence in videos of firemen saying there were explosions. Another video of a chief fireman who was in WTC7 who was victim of an explosion who was rescued and interviewed on a nwes station. These people obviously aren't actors. Some of these videos are soooo convincing I don't see how anyone can still believe the government's conspiracy theory. I had to delete the flickr photo 'cause the flickr police NIPSA'd my account so I substituted my webpage, which has many pics and the two videos I mentioned here. Raquel Baranow (talk) 17:43, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. In any case, this is not a discussion forum for controlled demolition conspiracy theories or 9/11 denial. This is a talk page for the improvement of this article. What is the specific change that you would like to make to the article and what reliable sources do you have to back it up? If you don't have any, I suggest you seek an internet forum. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:17, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm saying, the article is biased, missing a lot of information, needs to be improved or deleted. Here's some examples of bias in the article:

• "Supporters of the hypothesis claim that anecdotal evidence of molten steel found in the rubble of the collapse." Should read "eyewitness testimony."
• "the use of thermite, explosives, or some combination thereof is the most common suggestion being made today. I'd like to add, "thermobaric bombs" with links to an article at 911Research.com.
• "The investigation noted that no blast was audible on recordings of the collapse and that no blast was reported by witnesses." This is not true. The video I cited above has a very credible witness interviewed by a TV station saying he was a victim of an explosion in WTC7, the witness also mentioned stepping over dead bodies in the lobby of WTC7 as he was being evacuated/rescued by firemen!
• "It was first suggested in late 2001 and has since become increasingly important to the 9/11 Truth Movement, but is rejected by the mainstream media and the mainstream engineering community." Why does "mainstream media" have to be mentioned? Mainstream media in Russia recently showed an entire video, I forget which one, on public TV and, more and more archetects & engineers are comming out against the government's conspiracy theory. (see AE911Truth.org)

There's so much more wrong with this article. The article should be deleted! Raquel Baranow (talk) 20:53, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

• "anecdotal evidence" is the term used by the source, which meets WP:RS, so that is what we should call it.
• "the use of thermite..." the terms already in this sentence are backed up with references either to reliable sources or to people who have been mentioned in reliable sources as promoting CD theories. 911Research.com isn't in this category and the fact that someone has suggested thermobaric bombs doesn't mean it's one of the most common suggestions.
• "The investigation noted that no blast was audible on recordings of the collapse and that no blast was reported by witnesses." It is certainly true that the investigation noted this. The sentence is referring to NIST, which said that "no blast sounds were heard on the audio tracks of video recordings during the collapse of WTC 7 or reported by witnesses" (see the reference cited in the article).
• "mainstream media and the engineering community". The sentence is included because there are sources backing up both parts of it. (In fact the reference cited is a proper academic journal.) AE911Truth.org is not a reliable source and they do not represent most of the engineering community.

I should also note that articles are only deleted through Misplaced Pages's deletion policy. It is extremely unlikely that an attempt to delete this article would succeed. Hut 8.5 09:59, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Point 1: The source says "anecdotal evidence" because he never interviewed the eyewitnesses which makes the terminology correct. If you want to change it to "eyewitness evidence" you need to find a relevant RS source that does interview the witnesses.
Point 2: Thermobaric bomb claims are by no means common enough to have more than a passing reference if at all.
Point 3: You are indeed correct that the claim is wrong in regards to witnesses but IT IS what the investigation reported. It might be appropriate to mention that many witnesses did report explosions somewhere but mention should then also be made that they misinterpreted what they heard. I believe a source I once read claims they were hearing the building moving.
Point 4: Mainstream media still rejects the hypothesis regardless of how many engineers come out in support.
Please avoid bringing up multiple complaints. Getting consensus or not on one at a time is easier and less disruptive than presenting 3 or 4 suggestions that are OR or unsupported and having a valid concern that might have otherwise got consensus lumped in with it. You may feel strongly about 911 but care must be taken when dealing with a controversial subject. Wayne (talk) 17:41, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Recommend renaming this article

There is no "hypothesis" that controlled demolition brought down the WTC. There are "conspiracy theories" that this occurred, but thats all. I recommend and urge we retitle this article to properly reflect what this article discusses, namely the conspiracy theories. So I think that retitling it to ] would be the most accurate title which reflects the information in the article.--MONGO 03:46, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with Mongo. I did several Google searches on "Controlled demolition hypothesis" and the vast majority of hits come from 9/11 conspiracy Web sites, none of which qualify as WP:RS. If you ignore the conspiracy Web sites (as we should) and only look at reliable sources, the term "Controlled demolition hypothesis" is hardly ever used. The overwhelming majority of reliable sources refer to the "controlled demolition" of the World Trade Center as a conspiracy theory. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:38, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Is Misplaced Pages an encyclopedia or do we use newspaper terminology? A conspiracy theory is who did it and why while a hypothesis is what happened. A conspiracy theory requires a hypothesis as a basis. To use newspaper terminology is inappropriate and could even be POV.
Conspiracy Theory-noun: a belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for an unexplained event.
Hypothesis-noun: a tentative theory; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena. Wayne (talk) 16:37, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Most reliable sources talk about "controlled demolition" and then go on to describe it as a conspiracy theory. A hypothsis is a scientific proposal that has yet to be proven. Things that are patently false are not called hypotheses. Only Truther literature uses the term "controlled demolition hypothesis". Therefore, in accordance with our general practice on Misplaced Pages to call things by what they are, I think this article should be named World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories. See also Chemtrail conspiracy theory, Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories, Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories, October surprise conspiracy theory. Jehochman 19:14, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Rename it. Isn't a hypothesis something that can be falsified? But to the point, calling it the "controlled demolition hypothesis" is substituting what some guys on the internet think best for what the sources say. That's original research. We should describe things as the sources describe them. To the extent they talk about this at all, they do so in the context of the 911 conspiracy theories. Tom Harrison 19:39, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Done. Jehochman 03:40, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

How is it that several editors with a known bias suggest a name change using false information in support and six hours later it is a done deal? If it had been a move by conspiracy theorists they ould have been blocked if not topic banned. Since the reasons given for the change are not valid (have you even read the reliable sources?) I request the name be reverted and time given for editors to comment. Nist uses several phrases in ther reports when talking of controlled demolition. 1: Controlled demolition hypothesis (the most common term they use), 2: Controlled demolition theory, 3: Controlled demolition event and 4: an alternative hypothesis. Are you suggesting NIST is not a reliable source? If Nist is not reliable then how about Bazant who uses the term? Manuel Garcia? A physicist and engineer at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory uses the phrase Controlled demolition hypothesis in his article titled We See Conspiracies That Don't Exist The Physics of 911 as does Pierre Sprey in his The Absurdity of Controlled Demolition. Even Shermer called it the planned demolition hypothesis. Wayne (talk) 08:02, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

• @Wayne, Conspiracy theorists are definitely not on equal footing at Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages is for verifiable facts. Jehochman 11:16, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

• A name change seems perfectly reasonable to me. WP:NAME says that "Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize", and when the controlled demolition ideas are discussed in reliable sources they are labelled as conspiracy theories, even in academic journals. Furthermore I should note that the article's title was one of the reasons why it failed a GA review in 2008. NIST reports use phrases like "allegations of controlled demolition" or "hypothetical blast scenarios" to describe parts of the idea. Hut 8.5 11:32, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Removals of the new paper

Please explain why the article about demolition "conspiracy theories" is not allowed to include references to the papers that are written about the subject itself, just because they are published by Bentham. Obviously there is no concern about references to conspiracy theory books. But since when is an open scientific journal not allowed on wikipedia? Bentham articles have been referenced here for a long time, and the topic is extremely relevant to this article, written by the very researchers the article is supposedly about.

If one were writing an article about moon landing deniers, but no actual articles written by moon landing deniers would be allowed to even be referenced in the article, how is anyone supposed to see what the claims actually are?

The only reason I can imagine is that editors here don't want anyone to know that conspiracy theorists have written articles at all. If their claims are all wrong, what difference does it make if people see them? Apparently if the public sees these articles, they will be misinformed about what the conspiracy theories are really about. Or is there some other reason? bov (talk) 02:37, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

"If one were writing an article about moon landing deniers, but no actual articles written by moon landing deniers would be allowed to even be referenced in the article, how is anyone supposed to see what the claims actually are?" The answer to this question would be how do reliable sources treat these claims? If no reliable source has covered the conspiracy theories, then it need not be in the article. If reliable sources have covered the conspiracy theories, then they might be in article but only as the reliable sources resported it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:59, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Why are we labelling these papers as "reaction of the engineering community"? They weren't written by engineers, so keeping them in this section falsely implies that engineers are writing papers about controlled demolition ideas. If these papers are going to stay they need to be moved to another section. Hut 8.5 12:37, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I have requested arbitration enforcement. We should not have to answer the same questions to the same users a million times. Jehochman 13:06, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

You opened the door to the same questions with the name change. If the name change is acceptable then material that may not have been appropriate for a hypothesis is now relevant under the more general conspiracy theory title. For example, no reasonable arguement can now be made to keep out the Bentham paper anymore. Wayne (talk) 13:34, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

That's almost true. However, the claim that either Bentham paper is in a peer-reviewed journal is not suitable for inclusion, nor is the claim that the authors are engineers or otherwise credible. Notability is still in question, not verifiability. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 13:45, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

{ec} Is Bentham a reliable source? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:46, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Removed Information

In April 2009, Danish chemist Niels H. Harrit, of the University of Copenhagen, and 8 other authors, published a paper in The Open Chemical Physics Journal, titled, 'Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe'. The paper suggested that super-thermite chips were discovered in the dust and was covered in the Danish and Croatian press as well as in Utah.

Thanks for this - it became apparent from my watchlist that there was something somebody didn't want me to read here, for whatever reason. Now that I have read it, the only conceivable reasons I can think why somebody wouldn't want me to have read that information, are all utterly vile and reprehensible, sir. Please give an adequate rationale why I should not have been allowed to read that. No Time Toulouse (talk) 13:48, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

• Former good article nominees
• Old requests for peer review
• Misplaced Pages pages with to-do lists