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For discussion started here, I will answer them here. Therefore if you wish for me to reply, please add this page to your watch list. Thanks! -- Ganymead

Nota Bene - I will not have as much time to spend on Misplaced Pages as I would like from now until December as I am in rehearsals for an upcoming production of A Christmas Carol. I'm playing the ghost of Jacob Marley! Boo! Should anyone need to contact me, please leave a note here as I will check this daily. Cheers and God bless us, everyone!

Talk Archive

• Archive 1 May 2004-Oct 2005.

The Relapse

Hey, Ganymead, thanks for the wave on FAC! :-) I've got another theatre article sort of coming up, about Vanbrugh's The Relapse, though I'm tearing my hair out over it. It's a sequel to a play by Cibber, with some of the same characters, and I keep discussing both plays together, because—well, you'll see why, if you care to take a look. I worry that the article must be hopelessly confusing, with all the plotlines and personalities. And the dates. Oh, and there are two different theatre companies involved, too. :-( I'm trying to be explicatory but not boring, but it's really hard. I feel poised between repeating myself interminably and leaving the reader in the dark, most likely achieving the worst of both. If you've got time, would you be interested in taking a look, and let me know if my narrative gives an idea of the twists and turns, or just a feeling of lots of unfamiliar names coming at you?

Oh, and another problem: the modern section is empty still, and I don't know what to fill it with. A short summary of academic interest and interpretation I can do—there hasn't been much of it lately—but the modern stage? All I've got in the way of sources for that is Zimansky's and Bernard Harris' paperback editions, from 1970 and 1971, and well, they mention the musical Virtue in Danger in 1963, and that's pretty much it. Google gives one or two production reviews, but they're very random, and only from the last few years, and I would think very minor. Got any ideas? (Any sensational new production of The Relapse taking place in your town as we speak? :-))

Not sure I'll put it up for FAC, though, in any case. I'm a bit upset at some of the more churlish comments on Giano's great article. :-( (Thanks for being an exception!). Hey, Julian Eltinge is looking very good, but I see you haven't worked on it since March. :-( I hope that's not because of me being discouraging about the copyright images..? Much better to ignore me, I don't know what I'm talking about! (Oh, hey, I was just back on FAC, thank you for the waveS, you're too kind! :-)) Bishonen | talk 11:59, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Hey there! I've just glanced at The Relapse and it looks marvelous! You always do such a nice job. Sadly my education lacks much study in Restoration theatre so your articles are helping to fill the gaps. I did a quick check and did just find an article mentioning that The British National Theatre Company did a production of the play directed by Trevor Nunn in 2001. Here's the article and a review of that production. Hardly a random production! It appears to have had Brian Blessed (one of my personal favourites) in the cast. In addition, I also found that Patricia Routledge, known to American audiences as Hyacinth Bucket (that's "Bouquet", dear), was in Virtue in Danger. Here's a brief bio of the musical's librettist Paul Dehn that also includes a bit about the composer who also has a bio on the same site. But, alas, there is only a brief mention of the musical. There are little tidbits here and there on both the play and the musical. The Oxford Companion to the Theatre does provide a bit more information saying that the play in it's original form (not the Sheridan version) had a long run in London in 1947-48. It was revived by the Royal Shakespeare Company at the Aldwych Theatre in 1967. George Freedley and John Reeves' A History of the Theatre, 1967 ed. mentions a production at Canada's McGill University in 1960 directed by Harry Ritchie (whom I am not familar with). Of course there is Cyril Ritchard's revival in 1950 at New York's Morosco Theatre, he's mentioned in the first article and the Internet Broadway Database has a listing here. Here's a nice site on Ritchard. From the first article author's mention of this production, I would think it not minor at all. While the history appears spotty, there are some very nice productions that should be mentioned. I think that there is enough information here for at least a paragraph if not two. Of course it would mostly be name dropping. Sorry for the random order of this huge paragraph, I kept thinking of sources to check. I'll continue looking and post anything else that I find.

Also, thanks for asking about Julian Eltinge. You didn't scare me away, he's just been put on hold while I worked on my article on the Mandan which is currently on its second peer review before going to FAC. Any helpful suggestions regarding it would be most appreciated! In addition to that I've also been busy getting a book published. I'm doing the indexing now which is about to kill me. Julian will get some work in the future, I hope. I hope this info has been helpful! Let me know if there is anything else I can do! *Exeunt* Ganymead 16:57, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

WOW! Trevor Nunn and the RSC? It looks like I was right in claiming it's one of the most popular Restoration comedies, then (I was just guessing ;-)). You knew exactly where to look, those look absolutely wonderful. Look at me embarrassed: ha ha for the 18th-century ivory tower, I have no idea where to find out about modern productions, beyond punching a title into Google and hoping for the best (pathetic). I thought you'd be the person to ask. Thanks a million for taking so much trouble and posting all those links. I owe you! Bishonen | talk 17:40, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

SIX fluent speakers?

Hey, Ganymead, I've drafted a final section, all from your links plus a little Bernard Harris, if you care to take a look. Is the Morosco on Broadway like I imply? Please Be Bold if you have any ideas for additions or changes. <subliminal message>please help me find images<subliminal message> I'm looking at Mandan now, very cool! I'm the last person to venture any comments on American history, but I have a few pedantries for you, and will have more soon. It's a bit overlinked—don't link common words. Nobody reading your Lead is likely to want to break off to go read articles like Berry or Century or United States or Canada. Or useless (for your purpose) disambig pages like Lodge. See Make only links relevant to the context. It's a good idea to follow all the links, actually. To check especially for disambig pages, and then re-link straight to the relevant page instead. Oh, and I bet you'll find some unexpected names are software companies if you check the links, that's always happening to me. oh, and The Relapse is a bit underlinked, so don't take that for an ideal!I'm going to try to fix that up RSN.

Wow, only six fluent Mandan speakers in 1992? That's amazing, is it possible to say more about it? To find out how things are looking 13 years later? User:Mark Dingemanse is a linguist who specializes in fairly tiny languages (though I haven't seen him write about anything this small). Featured Article Nafaanra language is his sole work. He'd be a good person to ask where you can look up things like what's been happening to the Mandan language recently. See you! (What's your book about?) Bishonen | talk 01:24, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Hey there! I took a look and it looks marvelous! One idea...does your research turn up anything on 19th-century performances? I know that The Rivals and School for Scandal were very commonly performed at that time. (This would be a good time to mention my book which is on the most famous personalities to have performed at the Springer Opera House here in Columbus, Georgia. The opera house was built in 1871 and has seen numerous productions of both plays. Mrs. John Drew performed here in The Rivals with an all-star cast including Joseph Jefferson as Bob Acres, William J. Florence as Lucius O'Trigger and of course herself as Mrs. Malaprop. Anyway, I'm working on the index of the book as we speak and I have yet to come across The Relapse.) I have to wonder if the play was not forgotten until the 40's British revival of it. I'll see what books the Springer has in their library (half of which is currently stacked in my bedroom; borrowing privileges are great!) there may be a mention in one of them. I'll eventually get around to creating an article for the Springer as well...it's quite notable as a National Historic Landmark, it is on the National Register and it is the State Theatre of Georgia.

As for images, I did a google image search and found this site with some wonderful old pen and ink drawings of scenes from The Relapse. The site is here. Hopefully these will be helpful! The artist, William Powell Frith, died in 1909 and the works are now the property of the British governmant so they should be in public domain. I'll let you decided which ones to upload and use. I found a handful of modern photos but none seemed to be in the public domain...oh well...

Yes, the Morosco Theatre WAS on Broadway. Sadly, it was torn down along with the Helen Hayes, Bijou, Astor and Victoria Theatres (both cinemas) by John Portman (can we say pompous a**?) to make way for the Mariott Marquis Hotel, Times Square in 1982. Sorry for breaking NPOV, I harbour some resentment to seeing historic theatres torn down for no good reason.

Thanks for your comments on Mandan. I'll begin unlinking shortly. I will also be adding inline citation...what type do you use? As for the language, the 1992 fact is about all I can find except for a mention made of a program that has been created in reservation schools to teach the language. Sadly, having worked on the Cherokee indian reservation in North Carolina, I know that often these programs are somewhat ignored by the students. I'll make a point to contact User:Mark Dingemanse and see what he can find as I would love to expand the language section of my article. Thanks for your help! *Exeunt* Ganymead 02:56, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I've just unliked quite a few items. I left anything I thought my be useful to the reader including some common things that figure into the article in major ways like buffalo, leather and states. Should I unlink more? *Exeunt* Ganymead 04:45, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

That looks very well-judged to me, those are indeed useful links. Wow, amazing, great images! I envy you your searching skills, and I really appreciate getting to piggyback on them, Gan. And I was so short of images! The Crown Copyright page, here, is a bit of a nightmare, IANAL, but heck, the servers are in Florida and the artist has been dead for over 70 years, I'll just refer to Bridgeman as usual.

Yeah, in the 19th century, the Sheridan version ruled, so you'd need to search for A Trip to Scarbrough rather than The Relapse. As for American performances, you'd know more about it, but my own suspicion is that they'd be quite likely to use the Sheridan text but change the name Scarborough into something more locally recognizable. You wouldn't stand much chance of finding it with a different placename. :-(

Did you look at the latest version of my "Stage history" section? Apparently there was just the one, unique, performance of The Relapse itself in Britain in the 19th century, in 1846, at the Olympic Theatre in London. I've researched this to the full extent of reading almost a page about it in the introduction to Bernard Harris' paperback New Mermaid edition. ;-) The truth is Vanbrugh's play is made to be cut up and mangled, it falls into two separate pieces as soon as you look at it, for a start. 19th century company managers didn't exactly believe in putting on whole Restoration plays with all the trimmings, they lifted what they needed for an evening's farce and left the rest. Their audiences liked Foppington and Hoyden and would have been bored by the relapse plot. (Basically, I feel the same way. ;-P)

Your book sounds really interesting. Dear Mrs Malaprop! Bishonen | talk 21:44, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Minstrel photo

Hey, Ganymead. Do you mind if I upload Image:Belvidere_OH_Minstrels.jpg to Wikimedia Commons and then nominate the image for deletion on en.wikipedia.org? On Commons it will be available in any Wikimedia project, including en.wikipedia. I've recently uploaded a bunch of scanned images there, and I'd like all the blackface minstrelsy stuff to be in one place. See particularly Category:Blackface minstrelsy. What say you? BrianSmithson 20:17, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Certainly, go ahead! Thanks for asking. *Exeunt* Ganymead 20:18, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Done! Photo now resides at the Commons. BrianSmithson 15:37, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Article Improvement Drive

Thank you for your support of the Article Improvement Drive. This week Discovery Channel was selected to be improved to featured article status. Hope you can help…

RENTASTRAWBERRY röck 01:35, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Mandan featured

Congratulations, that was some smooth sailing Mandan had through FAC, and so it should, great work! I look forward to seeing it on the Main Page. Bishonen | talk 09:59, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks again for your help on the article! *Exeunt* Ganymead 15:14, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I've already started work on my next FA. Know anything about Commedia dell'arte? *Exeunt* Ganymead 15:19, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Ou...ch. No, not really. But what a good idea! A very worthy subject. I'm thinking of jumping in the deep end and starting a little research on something I'm very ignorant of, Troilus and Criseyde. Chaucer's poem, not Shakespeare's play. Not sure I'll have the time, but Geogre is kind of needling me into it by saying it's horrible and boring. It's not! It's one of my favorite poems ever. Bishonen | talk 15:32, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Sounds fascinating. I took a look at the poem on WikiCommons and got through the first three lines. Then the language starts going wonky in the fourth line and I zoned out. Bon chance, my dear! You'll do a marvelous job, I know! *Exeunt* Ganymead 16:58, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Black pepper change

(I really do mean this in the friendliest way, forgive me if it sounds like I'm quibbling, but I hope to learn something.) Regarding this change; why is the new form "The berries of the same plant..." better than the original "The same plant's berries"? I know the style guide says to avoid contractions, but does it say to avoid possessives? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 04:08, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I perfectly understand your concern. I've been working on editing a book about to go to publication and one of the things I have seen is the varying opinions regarding certain phrases. We've (the author and I) had arguments over the meagerest of sentences and phrases. I'll be honest, on this phrase I think it simply reads better as I wrote it. Technically, the fact that the previous sentence ends with a description of the berries make it easier to begin with the berries first and then mention the plant again. This is kind of a round about explanation, I know, but it's better than simply leaving it at "I think it reads better." But being one of the main contributors on the article, I let you make the decision as to what stands. By the way, it's a very enjoyable article and I'm considering supporting it for featured article, but I do feel there is a bit of history missing...I have just started a book, Simon Winchester's Krakatoa: The Day the World Exploded and there is discussion of the pepper and spice trades at the beginning of it. Particularly how the Dutch gained control of the pepper trade over the Portuguese. I'd be willing to contribute a few lines to the article if you'd like, though I'd rather have a better source on the subject. Just let me know. I may look around and see what I can find. Thanks for your inquiry! ''*Exeunt*'' Ganymead ] 06:13, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, the long explanatiion helps me understand where you were going. I found the new sentence structure a little roundabout, and changed it to "The same fruit is used to produce..." I'm the last person to say that the Black pepper article is totally comprehensive, as you might have noticed from my earlier objection to the FAC. It's a little tricky how much spice trade history to go into, especially since so much of it revolves around the Moluccas and not the pepper-producing parts of the world. Rather than worry about the details of the Dutch takeover of Malabar, I'm actually more concerned that the history section abrubtly ends at that point, as if nothing has happened involving pepper since the 17th century. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 15:59, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

. Bunchofgrapes, Ganymead's of-construction strikes my ear also as "reading better", and I think the reason is grammar, not style. The general rule is that animate "owners" take the s-possessive, while inanimate (or really, really stupid life forms like "plants" ;-)) take the of-construction. My grammar book points out that there's a crapload of exceptions, and that "the choice is often a matter of rhythm and emphasis", but they do hold fast to the animate/inanimate distinction as a general rule. Thus:

my wife's job

his parents' consent

people's opinions

the elephant's trunk

But:

the spare wheel of the car

the legs of the chair

a total turnover of about $30 million

the strike of 1926

Hope this helps. Best wishes, Bishonen|talk 17:46, 15 November 2005 (UTC).

There, see, I learned something. Thanks, Bishonen. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 18:05, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Comments needed

Since you enjoyed History of the Jews in Poland, to which User:Halibutt has made substantial contributions, I thought you may enjoy this recent RfA, whoch seems to be in need of some comments.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 06:27, 17 November 2005 (UTC)