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Section on Anti-Brahminism?

There should be a section describing Karunanidhi's anti-Brahmin hatred in his early days, especially as a follower of E.V.Ramaswamy (Periyar). They, both EVR & Karunanidhi, had (have) a penchant for denigrating Brahmins and Hindus in general. The Ram Setu situation is just one such incident. Francois Gautier's museum showcasing Aurangazeb's atrocities against Hindus was attacked and forcefully shut down by Karunanidhi's henchmen (aka Tamil Nadu Police) last year. In no other state did this happen. His Brahmin hatred is visible during all his terms as CM of Tamil Nadu and the literal disenfranchisement of Brahmins in Tamil Nadu is living proof of this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.39.64 (talk) 19:43, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree. There should be such section as Karunanidhi has often called on his followers to indulge in violence against Brahmins and had equated Brahmins with venomous snakes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.245.116.245 (talk) 19:11, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

ADD A PHOTOGRAPH

a photo is uploaded File:Karunanidhy.jpg please stop semi protection and add this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hrithikkarthikeyan (talk • contribs) 16:29, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Early Years

Karunanidhi was born on June 3, 1924, in the village of Thirukuvalai, near Thiruvarur in Tanjore district, the granary of Tamil Nadu. His father Muthuvel was a scholar and a pandit, and his mother Anjugam, a devoted and loving housewife. "I was not the pet child of an affluent home. I was born of ordinary peasant stock, in a little village," said Karunanidhi.

As a student, he did not envince much inclination for routine studies. But he had a keen taste for drama, poetry, and Tamil literature. As a lad of 13, he plunged into a cultural and social movement, attracted by the great orator Alagiriswami, a pillar of the then Justice Party, who came to Thiruvarur to address a meeting in 1932. The seeds of public spirit and service were sown in him by Alagiriswami.

As a teenager, he gathered all the students of the locality, and formed them into a reformist association of youth. The Sangam as it was termed, provided a form for the boys to train themselves in the arts of speaking and writing. He soon extended the Sangam's sphere of activities to make it a statewide organization styled "All Students' Unity Kazhagam" A single-sheet bulletin, named Manavar Nesan was circulated among its members. The writings of Karunanidhi, usually marked by a lofty style and literary flourish, became very popular among the Tamil youth. His eloquent speeches, along with his writing ability, made him a natural leader of the students.

At a student's convention in Tanjore, Karunanidhi was enlisted as an important participant. But when he understood that the organising body had ulterior political objectives, he withdrew from the convention. As a counter move he started a new organisation called 'Tamil Manavar Manram', where he brought together all young people with a love for the Tamil tongue and culture. It was under the auspices of the manram that the now popular newspaper 'Murasoli' was born.

Besides these cultural activities, Karunanidhi involved himself and the student community in social work. Along with his comrades, he would visit the nearby hutments to do all that was possible within his limits. This was indeed a fitting apprenticeship for his later years as a Chief Minister

Entry into Politics

It was on the first anniversary celebrations of 'Murasoli' and 'Manavar Mandram' that Karunanidhi came into contact with student leaders like Anbazhagan, Nedunchezhiyan & Mathiazhagan, who were his ministerial colleagues later.

Karunanidhi who was a gifted stage artiste, put up a play titled Shanti, under the banner Davida Nataka Manram in Pondicherry. In this play he rendered the role of Sivaguru, which received much applause. This aroused the wrath of Congressmen, and there was resistance to the Dravidan movement. But the impact of this play made both Periyar & Annadurai visit Pondicherry and address a public meeting. Chaos followed the meeting, which was disturbed by miscreants. Karunanidhi was assaulted on the way back to his Manavar Manram. He was unconscious, when a kind neighbour nursed him back to consciousness in his house.

When the Justice party was transformed to Dravida Kazhagam, Karunanidhi designed the party flag. A black flag with a red circle was decided tentatively. It is said that Karunanidhi drew the red circle with his blood as a beginning for all the blood he shed for the honour of the party and the Tamils. The black was a reminder to the backwardness of the people who the party were keen on liberating, and the red circle represented the progressive aspirations of the Dravida Kazhagam.

Karunanidhi the Scriptwriter

At the age of 20, Karunanidhi went to work for Jupiter Pictures as a script writer. His first film 'Rajakumari', gained him much popularity. It was here that his skills as a script writer were honed. He wrote more than 70 screenplays including Rajakumari, Abhimanyu, Mandiri Kumari, Marutha Naattu Ilavarasi, Manamagan, Devaki, Parasakthi, Panam, Thirumbipaar, Naam, Manohara, Ammaiappan, Malai Kallan, Rangoon Radha, Raja Rani, , Pudhumai Pithan, Ellorum Innattu Mannar, Kuravanchi, Thayillapillai, Kanchi Thalaivan, Poompuhar, Poomalai, Mani Makudam, Marakka Mudiyuma? Avan Pithana? Pookkari, Needhikku Thandanai, Paalaivana Rojakkal, Pasa Paravaikal, Padadha Theneekkal, Niyaya Tharasu.

Activist

Karunanidhi was instrumental in the Kallakudi struggle to rename Dalmiapuram railway Station. Karunanidhi was entrusted with the task of organizing the struggle. The cadres were divided into three batches, and Karunanidhi lead the batch which lay down on the railway station, blocking the train. They were promptly arrested, the second group also met the same fate. When the third group lead by Kannadasan took its turn chaos broke, the police resorted to firing leading to the death of two. Karunanidhi was lodged in Thiruchirapalli Central Jail.

Even in jail he set up a shadow government, and allocated responsibilities to everyone of his cadres. During his periods in jail (he was incarcerated more than seven times between 1953 and 1965), Karunanidhi read and wrote extensively in prison.

DMK,the early Years

Karunanidhi contested the 1957 elections from Kulithalai constituency. This made the beginning for both Karunanidhi and the Dravida Munetra Kalagam. In 1967 they swept to power. Navalar Nedunchazhiyan was elected General Sectretary, and Karunanidhi became its Treasurer.

In 1957, the DMK convened, an anti-Hindi conference, to thwart the plans of the then Central Government to impose Hindi in Tamil Nadu. An anti-Hindi day was observed on October 13, 1957. They conducted a peaceful but massive agitation.

His party was indicted by the Sarkaria commission for corruption in alotting tenders for the Veeranam project . However the case was not pursued further. The Interim report of Justice Jain commission which oversaw the investigation into Rajiv Gandhi's assassination indicted Karunanidhi for abetting the LTTE . The report recommended that Tamil Nadu Chief Minister M. Karunanidhi and the DMK party be held responsible for abetting Rajiv Gandhi's murderers. They were later cleared of the charges.

Can anyone forget this?

Volume VII of that Report had concluded that "the conclusion is irresistible that there was tacit support to the LTTE by Shri M. Karunanidhi and his Government, and law enforcing agencies" (Volume VII, page 944, paragraph 73.32)

Karunanudhi is known for his bravery. He did not any anticipatory bail after Rajiv's assassination.

Biography

There is way too much of propaganda being put here by anti-DMK people.This is supposed to be a biography of Karunanidhi...not some online political forum for political attacks.

The person who edits this article as HornStop or something like that should be banned.He removes sourced articles and includes only those articles that talk against Karunanidhi.He even removed a line which merely said that Karunanidhi has a great command of Tamil.

Misplaced Pages Editors,PLEASE TAKE NOTE and ban this person.Thanks.

The person, who wrote the above is clearly a follower of Dr.Karunanidhi. Outside Tamil Nadu, such people are requested to behave in a civilized manner. Rather than asking for ban, why not rebut the points? Would it not settle the matter more amicably? ---20:47, 14 July 2006 (UTC)~~

Is the biography link of Karunanidhi or of Dr. Kalaignar? --Hemanshu 18:16, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

If I understand your question correctly, my answer is both. Karunanidhi's full name is Muthuvel Karunanidhi, whereas Kalaignar is an epithet. The word Kalaignar means artist. Sundar 04:35, May 26, 2004 (UTC)

=> See diff

Note, however, that WP policy insists that you cite all your sources; and further, if yours is only one of many viewpoints, the article should not be written in such a way that it is given undue privilege. Please keep that in mind, and please add citations! Hornplease 00:09, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

=> HornPlease, the WP policy seems fair. WP, to be an acceptable as an common source of information/knowledge, must present facts as they are, not as one wishes them to be. At the same time, we need to prevent fraud and deceit to be presented as valid counter-points.

19:05, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Time period

from 10-02-1969 to 04-01-1971 
from 15-03-1971 to 31-01-1976

Sundar, I could see these time periods overlaps. Could you comment on it? --Rrjanbiah 08:24, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

Rajesh, the time period does not overlap, but there is a small gap. One term ends on 14th January, 1971 and the next one starts on 15th March, 1971. I think, the gap may be due to President's rule. Sundar 08:47, May 26, 2004 (UTC)

Oops.. sorry.. I totally misread it because of American-Indian date formats. Thanks --Rrjanbiah 09:25, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

One more thing.. is it 14th January or 4th January? --Rrjanbiah 09:26, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

I don't know. User:harikishoreaj added that information. Let's ask him. I think there is some inconsistence with List of Chief Ministers of Tamil Nadu. If possible, I'll set it right. Sundar 10:17, May 26, 2004 (UTC)

I've changed the date format. Hope it is clear now. And by the way Sundar, there is no inconsistency with List of Chief Ministers of Tamil Nadu. -- Kishore 08:06, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, Kishore. Sundar 11:19, Jun 1, 2004 (UTC)

 from February 10, 1969 to April 1, 1971 
 from March 15, 1971 to January 31, 1976

My mind says some overlap again. --Rrjanbiah 04:22, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Welcome back Rajesh. Nice to see you again. Sorry about the date. When I retyped it in wiki format, I made a mistake. I've set it right. --Kishore 04:38, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thanks Kishore. Nice to see, you've fixed the problem. Regards --Rrjanbiah 04:49, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Text removed

The text removed by the anon was unsourced and POV, lets not revert it back Zeimusu | Talk page 02:53, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

The entire article should be removed. It just full of POV. I am wondering what the administrators are doing? --Ganeshvb 05:55, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

What on earth? You call MK a staunch supporter of LTTE openly? Atrocious, as far as WP is concerned. Karthik.raman 07:01, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Telugu ethnic origin

Need citation about his Telugu Ethnic origin ?RaveenS 16:05, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Some vandals are repeatedly deleting portions related to Rajiv Gandhi assasination and sarkaria commission. Though the source for both are verifiable. It is better to make this page protected with no more edits.

POV

• Karthik.raman 02:15, 3 July 2006 (UTC):There's just too much of POV in this article.. even after I reverted several parts... Administrators please help!

=> Mr.Raman, I suspect you have removed the section inserted by me "An Alternative View". If so, let me know, what are the points of contention.

HornStopPlease 19:20, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality

This article has a pro-Karunanidhi tone, we should adopt a more neutral tone. I am sure that Karunanidhi is not a saint. Please also comment on this misdeeds.--Wikindian 20:48, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

from WP:copyvio

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Article misleading- Reg: Rationalism

The article mentions that M.K was a rationalist, they called themselves as rationalists but they aren't. The Indian kind of Rationalism or atleast the Tamil one is only quasi-rationalism is not the full fledged rationalism. It advocates only Religious rationalism or rather Athiestic Rationalism. These so-called rationalists are mostly athiest, socialist and communist. They don't have the same skepticism on Government,Democracy as they have in God. For these people God is Government. It would be better to call these kind of people quasi-rationalists. -JK

Promoting Casteism a Wrong point

Karunanidhi has been in politics for over 50 years from the days of untouchablity to today.Look to quote recent press commnets to say he is casteist is is a biased view.Please be more substantial we are talking in terms of man who has been in politics for 50 years .Please do not judge him by a few recent commenst.ADYARBOY

He uses slang words like Parpan,Aryan etc for the last 50 years. I can search old references and quote it. Till such time, if required you can change words that in recent days he has released statements promoting casteism.Few earlier editors have also pointed out that this article does not point out his misdeeds.Even in controversies section article ends with absolving him of all charges. Even wikipedia articles on gods or prophets like Jesus christ or Prophet Mohammed or Hindu Gods provides alternative views about them.Moreover all my points are sourced from his political statements.--Indianstar 00:41, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I reverted back title of the section as "Promoting Casteism" from "Anti Brahmin Policy" due to following reasons.

1)His words like Aryan,Non-Shudras etc covers broad range of communities not only brahmins. --Indianstar 16:25, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

ADYARBOY,Indianstar .He also stood against casteism atleast his policies were.Hence I felt anti-brahmin was better.Anyway no problem NPOV is there.Anyway Nothing personal Indianstar.Your contributions are very good Indianstar. Harlowraman

Dear Harlowraman, Regarding your points on Karunanidhi is against casteism. You have quoted incentives to intercaste marriages and samathuvapuram as sources. I think it is not good sources for himself against casteism. Do you think only particular castes live in Anna Nagar or Poes garden or Gopalapuram areas? If you allocate houses based on caste proportion it is the proof of encouraging casteism. Incentive to intercaste marriages are available in all states and incentive is higest in gujarat. citation given by dr.bruno in reservation in india article says 48 people have benefitted in Tamilnadu out of 60 million population. These incentives were also given by Jayalalitha,Panneer selvam.MGR or any chief minister in India? Whether all chief ministers in this country are against casteism?

In my opinion,if somebody prohibits marriage advertisements based on caste or if somebody brings law to abolish caste based associations or if somebody says caste should not be recorded in school certificates then it is called against casteism. Encouraging intercaste marriages can be called against casteism but tamilnadu does not stand significantly apart from other states in this parameters. I suggest you to reconsider that section or add better citations. --Indianstar 13:45, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

IndianStar Thanks for message.Sorry I did not respond at once.Look if at the Dravidian movement from the Justice party days U will see its leadership has been anti-Brahmin not against any other caste .Annadurai came from a forward community the Mudiliar which does not enjoy reservation . Karunanadhi he is anti-brahmin but not promoting casteiem will give you the links in some time.Harlowraman (talk • contribs)

Ok. I have incorporated your views under promoting casteism. (Under controversy section, there cannot be section to appreciate his efforts.So alternative views has been listed in the same section). I have only removed samathuvapuram scheme as it is not the good example of against casteism. It can be mentioned in other sections.(Foreigner who reads this article will get the impression that all castes are living together only in samathuvapuram,whereas all castes are living together in all cities of Tamilnadu.(DMK party/Tamilnadu cabinet are the only places where people from certain communities cannot enter. That is the only place in Tamilnadu which cannot be called samathuvapuram). If you still feel it has to be mentioned in same section then no problem. Since alternative views for himself being against casteism has been incorporated, i feel NPOV can be removed.--Indianstar 13:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Grammer,Page and text not properly aligned

Grammer,Page and text not properly aligned. (125.22.67.230 09:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC))

Regarding modifications

Criticism against him has been moved and projected as positive point. If somebody says his government is for non upper castes it does not mean he is trying to uplift lower castes.It has to be considered as racial remarks. For example if Srilankan prime minister says his government is for Sinhalese by Sinhalese, will you tell that he is trying to uplift Sinhalese community or will you tell that he is trying to suppress Tamil community? If some indian politician says that his government is for hindus by hindus it means he is trying to suppress minority community not trying to uplift hindus. --Indianstar 13:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

POV

Neutrality of this article is suspected for following reasons. 1) Columnists/Political opponents who criticised his actions are alleged as anti tamil anti backward 2) Many adjectives like his arrest shocked conscience of the nation are used.3) Many original research contents are used without citations like his administrative skills without academic backup 4) Article ends with acknowledgement for his son as successor

Many well cited criticisms have been removed for trivial reasons.For example, contents are removed for spelling mistake in citation whereas contents are verifiable and many more additional citations available in internet to support same criticism. Few lines snippets about his family members under relevant nepotism charges were removed with the reason that it has to be quoted in respective member articles. Whereas this articles has many lines which cites suffering by same members. Nepotism charges has been modified as positive point with statements like " his family and politics are inseparable to him.".Building of his party office is mentioned in his achievements along with his government achievements.If his racial remarks are quoted then it is being converted as positive statement like "he is trying to uplift lower castes".Media citations regarding details of his family members are removed by saying that it does not appear in official government website though content is easily verifiable. Misplaced Pages policy does not say only offical government website has to be quoted--Indianstar 13:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Answers

1. The columnists routinely write against Tamil. They criticise reservations, they promote Hindi and they call Chennai as Rude cities. If you want, i can give citations Doctor Bruno 

Opposing reservations is not a sin. Everybody is entitled to have their point of view. Suggesting alternatives to caste based reservations is not anti backward. Do you think Yogendra yadav and Sachar are anti backward for suggesting alternative methods. Promoting hindi is not anti tamil.If "x" columnist writes something bad,it does not mean all columnists are bad.It also does not mean all writings of "x" are with wrong intention.All those who oppose Karunanidhi are not anti tamil and anti backward. Saratkumar,Aladi aruna are Tamilians and from backward caste..His political opponents and columnist cited in this article are nothing to do with views of other columnists who aired their views. Indianstar

1. If you were in India on June 30, 2001, (with open mind) you would have known what happened. Doctor Bruno 

I did not support his arrest method. Misplaced Pages article should not be our point of view. If some big adjectives are used then it should refer to somebody else through citations. This article has many superlative adjectivesIndianstar

1. His administrative skill has been written in many articles Doctor Bruno 
2. He has no academic background and that is well known Doctor Bruno 

OK.Agreed.Indianstar

1. If some one could not even write a name properly, how can the authenticity of the contents be established. The articles that were removed had a lot of factual inaccuracies Doctor Bruno 

contents of the article are verifiable through other citations. spelling mistake in name does not mean article contents are wrong.Please indicate what are the factual inaccuracies in the article and contents removed by you. Can't you verify contents through other citations.Indianstar

1. Family members are mentioned. It is clearly given that they are in key posts. Only unwanted details like who is the richest persons have been removed Doctor Bruno 

Details about richest person was not mentioned out of context,it was mentioned as part of vijayakanth's allegation.There is nothing wrong in mentioning few lines snippets about posts occupied by their family members as a proof of nepotism charges. Even article about Pope Alexander VI and International leader Lee Kwan Yew gives details of key family members.This article has details about suffering of same family members. How can we justify mentioning brief description about suffering of family members and not mentioning benefits accrued by his family members because of nepotism. Indianstar

1. He is trying to uplift backward castes. That is achievement. What is wrong with that. Doctor Bruno 

Nothing wrong in uplifting backward castes. There is no need to use slangs against other communities to uplift backward castes. There is no need to attack Hindu religion to uplift Muslims.Chief minister has to treat all communities equally. There is no need to call Hindus as theives to uplift backward castes.Indianstar

1. Building of party office is indeed an achivement. There is nothing specific about government achievement. If you feel so, you can very well give two headings and bring them seperately. Telling this under POV makes us suspect that your genuine intention is not improving the article, but defaming the subject  Doctor Bruno  15:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC).

I did not put POV.It was put by somebody else. (May be he would have put it for some other reason)I did not launch personal attacks(Like illicit relationship) against the subject so there is no question of suspecting genuine intention.I also played part in removing personal attacks from this article. All points were added with proper verifiable citation. By oversight many valid points with proper citations were removed(I am assuming good faith).Even details about his no.of wives was removed though it is verifiable irrespective of whether it appears in official site or not.(Having multiple wives is not a sin and not a criticism when all marriages are done legally and that point was not added by me).Indianstar

All political parties in India has party offices. So almost everybody has achieved something???.I differ from your views on mentioning some architectures as achievement. America does not have 1774 feet statue for George Washington.(Even statue of liberty was presented by French people).Abraham lincoln statue is not there in each street corner.But it has good express ways connecting from West coast to East coast. So in my opinion building public utilities alone has to be mentioned as achievement. However I don't have any problem in retaining existing contents on architectural achivements.Indianstar

Karunanidhi is a great administrator with lot of good qualities but he is not god. There is nothing wrong in having some criticisms against him.--Indianstar 18:09, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I strongly object to comparing Karunanidhi with Rajapakse. Kalaignar never waged a war against one community. He never bombarded orphanages. He never cut off food supply and led to people to starve. Please give some reasonable comparisons. Please note that Calling Sardar Patel as Anti-British for Indian Freedom struggle is not the same way with calling Rajapakse as Anti-Tamil  Doctor Bruno  15:21, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I have not compared with Rajapakse. Rajapakse never made such statement. I have given it as an example like "If srilankan prime minister says".--Indianstar 18:09, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

That is what I am opposing. Don't compare a statesman with some one who bombards orphanages and cuts the food supply to people of his own country for the simple reason they speak other language Doctor Bruno 

If you are hurt by my analogy I am withdrawing it, crux of the message is "If somebody says his government is for "X race" of "X race" it means he is against "non x" and does not mean he is trying to uplift "X"Indianstar

There is nothing wrong in having criticism. But there is a lot of things wrong in having WRONG Criticism. If you are going to add everything the opposition party leader told about a politician, go ahead, but first add "Advani was accused of having Selective Amnesia by Jayalalitha" . Hope you got my point  Doctor Bruno  18:38, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Jayalalitha article has her remarks against Advani and that criticism in her article was added by me.Also i added her personal remarks against sonia gandhi and other leaders in her criticisms sections. You can check in my contributions. I added many criticisms in her article. I added criticisms reiterated by many people and many columnists which are verifiable in this article. I never added Jayalalitha's personal attacks against Karunanidhi or any other persons personal remarks.Even I removed from this article when somebody added remarks about polygamy since i considered that as a personal attack. Saying illicit relationship of Jayalalitha as verifiable(Is it appearing in official site??),appreciating editors for writing about live-in relationship of Jayalalitha and saying multiple legal wives of Karunanidhi as not appearing in official site though it is verifiable gives wrong impression that people are not interested in seeing any criticisms(I don't consider having multiple wives as criticism and don't feel it has to be mentioned in this article) in this article and feels happy in adding tons of criticisms in his opponents articles.Many charges in criticisms section ends with absolving him of all charges. Rediff citation is quoted for Sachin tendulkar of Indian politics, but rediff columnist negative remarks appears with rider statement that columnists are against his pro Tamil and pro backward stance. Those who speak tamil irrespective of caste or religion is Tamilians. Please allow people to add constructive well cited criticisms. You can recollect that I have removed contents whenever you have cited problems with citation or contents. Original contents of DMK this year was removed and it has statements acknowledging Stalin as successor which is totally out of context to sub title.--Indianstar 05:21, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I know, my question is very simple. Can you tell in which article it has been mentioned about "Jayalalitha charging Advani with Selective amnesia" Jayalalitha's article or Advani's article.  Doctor Bruno  12:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

There are two kind of allegations. One is personal attack/racial slurs which comes out of anger and another is political attack which is levelled by many people which can be proved by external events. If Jayalalitha says something bad personally about Sonia gandhi it has to be updated in Jayalalitha article and not in sonia gandhi article.Jayalalitha's view on foreign person occupying prime ministership is shared by many people, so it can be updated in sonia gandhi's article. If Karunanidhi says hindus are theives, it has to be updated in Karunanidhi article and not in article about hindus. If somebody says Jayalalitha had illicit relationship it has to be treated as personal attack.Unfortunately people who treat Karunanidhi as idol makes merry by updating words like concubine,live in relationship,illicit relationship in Jayalalitha articles and does not allow even valid criticisms in his articles. Nanjil sampath/SS Chandran told lot of bad remarks about Karunanidhi & his family,I have not updated those remarks in Karunanidhi's article.Indianstar

Those who speak tamil irrespective of caste or religion is Tamilians. Unfortunately this list (of those who speak tamil and also those media persons who earn their life by because of tamilians) also include racists and fanatics who say that a temple will become தீட்டு if the Lord is adored with a tamil Song !!!  Doctor Bruno  12:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

We are deviating away from our original subjects.However, I will answer this question to the extent I know about this subject.There are many customs and traditions in all religious practices.

Usage of other languages in other religions I understand that many arabic hadiths are used in mosques.Religious clerics read arabic quran.Urdu is used in madarassas even though mother tongue of such state is normally hindi.Latin is used in many churches.

Usage of Tamil in other states and countries I have personally attended Tamil sabbath service in churches/Tamil mosque services in foreign countries. Thirupavai/Thirupalli eluchi/Nalayira thivya prabhandham is used in Thirupathy temple along with other language slokas.(I have attended the same).

Usage of Tamil in Tamilnadu Hindu temples Murugan temples in Tamilnadu use Kandha sasti kavasam(Tamil). Nalayira thivya prabandham(Tamil) is used in most of the Vaishnavite temples.Shiv temples use Thiruvasagam.(Ilayaraja made it popular internationally) This list is quiet long and I can give many examples and I have given only few samples. This is "Tamil Month Markali", you can visit any Hindu vaishnavite temple in Tamilnadu and you will hear only Thiruppavai(Tamil).

If some temple is not using Tamil, may be it is because of tradition in that temple like tradition followed by Tirupathy temple(Of using Tamil).It is not because uttering Tamil is defilement.(Theetu). How temples have to be managed is supposed to be decided by respective religious persons whether it is Hindu,Christian or Muslim religion. In Tamilnadu politicians who claim themselves as atheists poke their nose only in Hindu religious practices. No telugu politician claimed Telugu alone has to be used in Tirupathy temple instead of Tamil.No singapore politician has claimed only chinese has to be used in churches instead of Tamil. I am not very proficient in Hindu religious practices so I am not competent enough to answer more questions. There is a Hinduism portal with many good editors. You can put these questions to them and this subject is not relevant to the content of this article.--Indianstar 17:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Can you tell me why you did not say anti tamil anti backward rediff columnists called Karunanidhi as Sachin tendulkar of Indian politics? 2) If some english magazine columnist calls chennai as rude city? Does it mean all columnists are anti tamil?--Indianstar 17:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Not all. But there are few guys who have a very common pattern 1. They support Jayalalitha. 2. They criticise Karunanithi 3. They support Hindi 4. They oppose Tamil 5. They were conveniently silent when private colleges were started, when NRI seats were introduced, when those getting 12 % (12 out of 100) got post graduation in AIIMS by virtue of Quota. 6. But they will cry loud regarding Caste Based Quotas and not comparing other quotas 7. They will say that Lord does not understand Tamil. 8. They say that only the education is needed and birth should not be a criteria for admission to IIT 9. But they will file a case against a person from BC becoming Temple Priest (when DMK govt enacts a legislation saying that caste is not a criteria for the job of temple priest) and say that caste of birth is important.  Doctor Bruno 

It was only those fanatic racists hiding behind masks that I am criticising and not every one

And

There is nothing specific about government achievement. If you feel so, you can very well give two headings and bring them seperately. Telling this under POV makes us suspect that your genuine intention is not improving the article, but defaming the subject Doctor Bruno 

You are mixing many subjects and not answering my questions directly. Can you show citation for somebody saying uttering "Tamil" in Hindu temples is theetu(defilement). I suspect it is the translation done by some community haters. I request you to not get carried away by hate campaigns. If somebody says "Arabic quran sayings" has to be used in Mosques as part of tradition. I will not translate it as "Fanatic and racist people said uttering Tamil is theetu in mosques" since I don't have hatred towards Muslim community. All 9 points in your statement could have been uttered by different persons at different point of times and some of the points may be wrong translation of actual sayings.. Don't attribute all 9 statements to same person or same community.None of them is relevant to yourself removing well cited contents from criticisms section of this article or yourself appreciating editor in Talk page for writing bad personally about Jayalalitha. I will not discuss those points in details here since it is not relevant to this subject.I support some of these points,oppose some of these points and neutral in some points.You can make appropriate edits in reservations or Hinduism articles,we can discuss it there.If required we can discuss in our Talk pages.Indianstar

I already told that I don't consider building Anna arivalayam as achivement.Why are you raising that question again.Party offices are built by all party people.(We don't write in Jayalalitha article's achievement section that 'she has bought Safire theatre for building party office'.) If you want to keep it as an achievement under 2 different headings, I don't have any problem because it is trivial issue. I have not made many edits since many of the well cited criticisms appearing in this article has been reverted without discussions for trivial reasons.(so I wanted to discuss in Talk page to avoid edit war.)--Indianstar 02:38, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Reinsertion of well cited contents

I have reinserted some of the well cited contents which was removed. 1) Karunanidhi's remarks against suhasini and her community is verifiable. 2) Vijayakanth's allegations reinserted.(Rich person was quoted only as part of allegations. It is reworded to remove any apprehensions and inserted into parenthesis) 3) Selling SUN TV stakes was removed saying allegations pertaining to others. But that paragraph only talks about karunanidhi's sales of SUN TV Stakes.It is well cited and verifiable. 4) Unsourced allegations that columnists and political opponents are against his Pro Tamil Pro Backward stance is removed.--Indianstar 05:09, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Regarding your allegations

Regarding your allegations on Hinduism and Brahmin community It was only those fanatic racists hiding behind masks that I am criticising and not every one.

Unfortunately this list (of those who speak tamil and also those media persons who earn their life by because of tamilians) also include racists and fanatics who say that a temple will become தீட்டு if the Lord is adored with a tamil Song

They will say that Lord does not understand Tamil

I waited for citations and chose to reply now as I find these remarks by you is derogatory against my religion and Brahmin community members also would have been hurt by your words.(Point 9 given by you clearly indicates that you are calling Brahmin community as racists and fanatics as they have filed case in court).

Muslims maintain Hadiths which are original words of Prophet in Arabic to avoid misintrepretation during multiple translation over the course of time. So many words of arabic are used in mosques.

Christians in Tamilnadu has written on walls many bible transcripts in English followed by Tamil. Even Christian preachers has the habit of mentioning English sayings followed by Tamil one.

Sikhs maintain Punjabi version of Qurbani and there are punjabi characters in gurudwara's. I have observed this even in USA or UK.

Reason for all religions following this practice is that certain words may not communicate exact meaning when translated to different language. For example தீட்டு used by you can be translated as "defilement" but it will not show exact level of hatred in Tamil word. Poem written by Karunanidhi also will not convey exact core meaning when translated. Kandha sasti kavasam(Tamil) has lot of rhythmic words which will convey meanings only in Tamil.Retaining some original sanskrit vedas does not mean hindu god will not understand Tamil. Same way when Thirupavai(Tamil) is uttered in Thirupathy it is not translated to Telugu,So Muslims or Christians or Hindus arguing for using certain scriptures as it is using their original language are not racists or fanatics.Hindu hymns are available in all Indian languages and used in Temples. In Bali(Indonesia),Bahasa language is used in Hindu temples.

For argument sake let us consider that Group1 is saying that Caste Based Reservations is required in Education but not in Temples.Group2 is saying Caste Based Reservations is required in Temples and not in Education. How can you call Group2 as racist and fanatic and Group1 as not racist and fanatic. Both groups cannot allege other group as racist based on this point alone. I don't want to go to the argument of whether it is right or wrong. Just because one group does not subscribe to your point of view, you cannot call them racist.It is better to avoid such hard words against any group in wikipedia talk pages.We can discuss contents without using defamatory language against any particular group. --Indianstar 17:19, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Ha Ha Ha Ha ... ROFL .. Read my words. I did not mention any particular religion or particular caste..... Why are you so much hurt..... மடியில் கனமில்லையென்றால் வழியில் பயப்பட தேவையில்லை. It was YOU who has mentioned the religion and caste.... It is YOU who is defaming one religion and one caste..... Any one (whose mind is not blind) will understand this. Please stop this useless discussions.  Doctor Bruno  21:12, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Unanswered Questions

1. What is the intention of you WRONGLY mentioning that there were only 48 beneficiaries. I accept that you were mistaken. But what was the need of mentioning that. Can you explain
2. Have you included in Advani's article about Jayalalitha calling his as having amnesia. If you are adding that ONLY in Jayalalitha's article, then allegations against Kalaignar should be given in the article of those alleged and not in the article of the person who was alleged. Why you are following one standard for Advani and another standard for Karunanithi
3. There is nothing specific about government achievement. If you feel so, you can very well give two headings and bring them separately. Telling this under POV makes us suspect that your genuine intention is not improving the article, but defaming the subject.

Without satisfactory answers, I am not able to assume good faith about your edits and have to doubt that your aim IN THIS ARTICLE is not improvement of Encyclopedia, but defaming the person  Doctor Bruno  21:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I already answered all these questions. I can mark in bold if you are not able to identify my answers to these questions

# What is the intention of you WRONGLY mentioning that there were only 48 beneficiaries. I accept that you were mistaken. But what was the need of mentioning that. Can you explain

Answered.If my understanding is that you wanted to know why it was mentioned originally then this text appears in discussions with Harlowraman "These incentives were also given by Jayalalitha,Panneer selvam.MGR or any chief minister in India? Whether all chief ministers in this country are against casteism?". Encouraging intercaste marriages can be called against casteism but tamilnadu does not stand significantly apart from other states in this parameters. I suggest you to reconsider that section or add better citations"

# Have you included in Advani's article about Jayalalitha calling his as having amnesia. If you are adding that ONLY in Jayalalitha's article, then allegations against Kalaignar should be given in the article of those alleged and not in the article of the person who was alleged. Why you are following one standard for Advani and another standard for Karunanithi

I already answered this question elaborately. I told allegations proved by external events are not personal allegations. Karunanidhi meeting Governor,Governor withholding cable bill,withdrawal of cable bill after coming back to power are external events which succedded allegations.

Answer2: Why do you always refer Advani? Why not Sonia gandhi? Amnesia is a disease or genetic defect.(May be as a Doctor you will know it better).I don't have the habit of updating criticisms regarding genetic defects,diseases or physical characteristics in anybody's article.So I don't update in anybody's article or encourage words like Fat lady(some DMK speakers allege about Jayalalitha),Sore eyes(Some ADMK speakers allege about Karunanidhi),Limped legs,wrinkled face,live in relationship,concubine,illicit relationship etc etc. Also I choose articles to be edited based on my areas of interest and areas of knowledge.I don't edit articles based on compulsion from somebody.I never edited or even read Advani/Sonia gandhi articles.I have not observed amnesia in criticism section of any biography article. I have observed "Nepotism" as criticism in many biography articles.If you don't have problem of using words like Amnesia in biography articles then you can edit in Advani article and I don't have any problem because I am not interested in Advani article.

# There is nothing specific about government achievement. If you feel so, you can very well give two headings and bring them separately. Telling this under POV makes us suspect that your genuine intention is not improving the article, but defaming the subject.

Answered.I already told that I don't consider building Anna arivalayam as achivement.Why are you raising that question again.Party offices are built by all party people.(We don't write in Jayalalitha article's achievement section that 'she has bought Safire theatre for building party office'.) If you want to keep it as an achievement under 2 different headings, I don't have any problem because it is trivial issue.

Without satisfactory answers, I am not able to assume good faith about your edits and have to doubt that your aim IN THIS ARTICLE is not improvement of Encyclopedia, but defaming the person''

You may think criticising Karunanidhi is Anti Tamil.(Like what you alleged against his political opponents while trying to improve article contents).I think nobody needs to certify Tamil speaking person as whether he is Tamilian or not.

You have not answered any questions asked by me and dragged subject to different direction away from content. If you want I can again mark my questions in Bold. Sample question is "Why you did not say Anti Tamil Anti Backward rediff columnists told Karunanidhi as Sachin Tendulkar of Indian politics.Why rider statement is appearing only in rediff criticisms."Why suffering of family members can appear but benefits to family members cannot appear under nepotism?".Why did you raise subjects which are totally not relevant to contents of this article like using Tamil is defilement? There are many more questions.I can mark in bold if you cannot identify questions.--Indianstar 03:57, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Can you please copy and paste your answers instead of the one word answered.  Doctor Bruno  15:33, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I have done copy & paste. I hope you should be able to identify various questions asked by me,you can answer those questions so that i can also get convinced about your intention.--Indianstar 19:55, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Protest

I never mentioned any religion or community. I demand an explanation for your baseless allegations about my edits. Please read posts carefully (with open mind) before criticizing others  Doctor Bruno  21:19, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I also mentioned in my edit how I presumed that you are mentioning particular community or religion. You told 9 patterns of kind of person you are referring to. One pattern says filing case against particular event. It was done by particular community group.Not using Tamil in Hindu temples is some rationalists allegations against Hindu religion.(It is recent event and there are news reports for the same.I asked citation because you referred that allegation without verifying whether any prominent Hindu member told that "Lord does not understand Tamil".)Events quoted by you obviously refers to particular community and religion. Circumstantial evidence is available for you referring about particular religion and caste though it is not stated directly by you.Anybody who is watching those events should be able to relate it.

I never used any bad words against you or any group.You used words like "if your mind is not blind","Do not exhibit your mental make up" etc.I only called you with respect like "Senior wikipedian". You alleged some groups as racists and fanatics.You can criticise actions of any group but cannot allege them as racists for not subscribing to your point of view. I protest for these remarks.I always followed Civility guidelines of wikipedia.Always tried to discuss contents till I was dragged to some other subject. Let us leave this argument as it is.I am not going to answer any more for subjects which are not related to contents of this article.--Indianstar 04:28, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Controversies review

Dr.Bruno

I have reviewed controversies section contents to recheck whether anything wrong/personal attack/uncited contents are available.

• • Veeranam It is based on commitee findings which was manned by judges.
  • Jain commission It is based on Commission findings which was manned by judges.
  • Nepotism. Contents are not only based on opposition parties attack. There are independent columnists who has written about the same. There are external events like Dayanidhi maran promoted ahead of other senior leaders,only cabinet minister post to Murasoli maran etc are quoted as proofs.Like other biography articles(Lee Kwan Yew,Pope Alexander VI) which has nepotism charges, details of benefitted family members are given. Many additional columnists contents are available and can be given if you feel particular columnist is anti tamil
  • Casteist remarks It is based on Karunanidhi's remarks, not based on opposition remarks. Opposition view/Alliance partners views were given.Kanimozhi,Bharathiraja,Kartick chidamparam names to be given only to prove that when multiple prominent personalities support one issue, he attacks only particular community to deviate from the core issue.Many more additional citations from his Murasoli writings can be given about slangs used by him
  • Selling Sun TV Stakes. All contents are verifiable. Allegations are based on facts about IPO price and his selling price which happened in short duration. Remarks from opposition parties and IPO price,selling price are verifiable. It is not allegation about Maran,it is allegation against Kalaignar.
  • I am planning to add Anti Hinduism sub section in controversies section which will be based on his remarks against Hindu religion. It will be well cited as per my routine edit practice.
  • I am also planning to add some of the achievements which has not been stated.

This article has enough positive points about the subject. If you still honestly feel any of these points in controversy section is not valid,please be specific and suggest which points are not valid and for what reason. If we cannot come to common understanding then we can ask non indian administrator to do peer review of this article and Jayalalitha article.I feel that you could have discussed in Talk pages before doing mass deletion of well cited paragraphs.I also feel reasons given by you in edit history for deletions of well cited paragraphs like spelling mistake in name,not appearing in official site,content not related to subject(though content was related to subject,Kanimozhi & Maran name should not appear etc are not valid.Some of the cited sentences were deleted without any reason in edit history while deleting other sentences. --Indianstar 15:56, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality

.... is defined as the art of adding allegations against Mr.X by Mr.Y in the article of Mr.X and then ignoring the allegations of A by B in the article of A because you want to defame Mr.X ..... Nice definition... Isn't ????  Doctor Bruno 

Sathiyama puriyalai(Could not understand)....Looks like visu dialogues...

Neutrality is saying live in relationship as verifiable.(Though mistress word has many meanings including positive meanings).Saying word concubine from article to be removed only after discussions in talk pages. But silently removing well cited points for reasons like spelling mistake in name, not in official pages,columnists are anti tamil etc.Isn't it??. OK.No hard feelings please.Indianstar 15:14, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

POV Removal

I suggest POV tag can be removed.If anybody has any objections then list out reasons otherwise I will remove POV tag by tomorrow.--Indianstar 11:59, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Bias and missing information

Bias

• The article seems more hagiographic, than biographic. It is acceptable to metion epithets, but referring to the person by his/her epithet does not reflect well on a supposed biography.
• The discussions seem to indicate that anyone who writes unflattering remarks about Karunanidhi has to be pro-Jayalalitha. Instead, it should be seen as a request for complete information.
• In reality, Karunanidhi, as a literateur, can not hold a handle to to either classical writers or his contemporaries. Criticisms of his literary work needs to added with appropriate citations.
• Rationalist, atheist and secularist Karunanidhi's participation in iftar meals, while denigrating Hindu customs like wearing holy ash, need to balance the appropriate sections.
• Karunanidhi has been much-maligned for sporting a yellow shawl for luck. This accusation needs to be deconstructed in the context of others' preference for party colur lined upper cloth.

I fully support your views. I have added many positive and negative points to this article/Jayalalitha article to make both articles as comprehensive. But people tried to expand positive points in this article and distort negative points. If you see History of this article and Jayalalitha article you can find experienced wikipedians and even some administrators enjoyed writing abusive/Unparliamentary languages in Jayalalitha article and same people contributed in promoting image of Karunanidhi. If somebody tries to bring balance to this article they will be blamed as Anti-Tamil.--Indianstar 13:54, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

·02:34, 25 November 2007 (UTC)SAKMohan (talk)−== Missing information ==

• Industrial growth of TN is restricted only to the latest happenings and not to achievements since 1969.
• References to Karunanidhi's Vaishnavite leanings should be added. For instance:

→ Changing his name from Dakshinamurthi (a Saivite name) to 'Karunanidhi', a name of Vishnu.
→ Naming his nephew's sons Dayanidhi and Kalanidhi, both epithets of Vishnu.

• Propensity towards use of Sanskrit words despite seeming spite of the language needs to be explained. For example:

→ 'Dravida' in the party's name is a Sanskrit word.
→ The party's symbol is 'udaya suriyan', both 'udaya' and 'suriyan', being Sanskrit words, despite chaste words like Adhavan, pagalavan, kadhiravan, paridhi being available in Tamil.
→ The leader himself has a name in Sanskrit, unlike names like Nedunchezhian or Anbazhagan, that are in chaste and classical Tamil.

• The relevance for Kuraloviyam, a treatise on Tirukkural, should be explained in the light of E.V.Ramaswamy Naicker's criticism of the Tirukkural as absurd Aryan propaganda.

Sudar 05:58, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Also his questions regarding which engg college did Rama study. He should learn history properly. Vishwakarma as per Ramayana was the person with whom Rama consulted with regards to the construction bridge. I think the respected minister have not ever bothered to update his knowledge on Sthapatya Veda, Vastu Shastra etc. I am sure he is critically unaware about anything other than acting.BalanceΩrestored 07:27, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Polygamy is a crime only if the 1st Wife files a complaint and further India's personal is a maze with different ones for Hindu,Muslims etc.Hence to say that he commited a crime legally is wrong.Pharaoh of the Wizards 14:47, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Whether particular activity is crime or not is never decided based on complaint. Complaint is only to initiate action against crime. Indian law for Hindus clearly says that Polygamy is crime. (I have earlier given citations. Unfortunately those points were removed by Pro-Karuna group).

Regarding Whether Lord Rama is engineer or not?. Karunanidhi claims he has built Valluvar Kottam. We say Shahjahan has built Tajmahal. If Karunanidhi and Shajahan can build building structures without doing engineering degree why Rama has to do engineering degree to build structures.

There is no scientific proof for many Religious stories irrespective of whether story belongs to Hinduism or Christianity or Islam. It is applicable whether it is Noah's Ark or Ram sethu. It is also applicable for many of our historical events like Kannaki burning madurai. But generally political leaders respect those stories because it is attached to people's sentiments. Being stubborn to demolish a structure attached to religious faith is Taliban style of administration. (See Buddhas of Bamiyan ).--Indianstar 04:56, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Indianstar in India unlike other crimes in polygamy there is no default action unless the first wife files a complaint.. Further it is stated that he married 3 times in personal life.Pharaoh of the Wizards 13:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

There are temples in Rameshwaram, There is Rameshwaram. But Karunanidhi does not see RAM any where in these. I think he should be also unaware how old is Rameshwaram.BalanceΩrestored 05:49, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

It was mentioned Senior VHP leader and former BJP MP Ram Vilas Vedanti who issued a fatwa against Kalaignar for his remarks on Ram. But people who edited this has conveniently forgotten that Ram Vilas Vedanti is also a Saint. So, it shoukd be mentioned as a Hindu Saint (not as Senior VHP Leader) and former BJP MP Ram Vilas Vednthi.

• • • There's this statement in Ram Setu Controversy where the author said that Karunanidhi apparently called Ram a drunkard. I'd like the author to come up with a citation to the news article where in this was reported if at all this is true. --Abhilashreddym (talk) 08:13, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

• • The following lines are misleading and biased:

He used to be an Atheist and follower of E. V. Ramasami Naicker until recently. However, after a recent meeting with Sathya Sai Baba, he has openly expressed his admiration for Hindu religion.

why the word "used to be", "until recently"? what is the proof he has changed? appreciating religions is not a proof that he is not an atheist and stopped following periyaar.--Ravishankar (talk) 14:28, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

cabinet

his cabinet list doesnt fit in here. probably better in Tamil Nadu state assembly election, 2006 or more suitably in an article such as 13th assembly of Tamil Nadu. In fact, we could create an article for all the assemblies or merge cabinet and all government related information with following articles and just change its title appropriately.

• Tamil Nadu state assembly election, 1967
• Tamil Nadu state assembly election, 1971
• Tamil Nadu state assembly election, 1977
• Tamil Nadu state assembly election, 1984
• Tamil Nadu state assembly election, 1989
• Tamil Nadu state assembly election, 1991
• Tamil Nadu state assembly election, 1996
• Tamil Nadu state assembly election, 2001
• Tamil Nadu state assembly election, 2006 --Docku: What's up? 00:30, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

My addition of Cabinet was based on the format used for British PMs. See here-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 14:32, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Birth Place

Karunanidhi's home page shows his Birth place is in the village of Thirukuvalai, near Thiruvarur in Tanjore district.. But this article states he is from Prakasham district, Andhrapradesh. Which one is correct?. Members are requested to cite reliable sources before answering this question. --రవిచంద్ర (talk) 09:13, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

1. http://www.hinduonnet.com/2001/06/10/stories/0410223a.htm
2. http://www.india-today.com/itoday/17111997/cov.html

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