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• Romney: Some Beliefs Are More Equal than Others, quoted on the template on: Talk:Mormonism_and_violence T (talk) 14:55, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Coatrack tag

I added the coatrack tag to this article due to the excessive amount of coverage of this man's views as opposed to the man himself. Bonewah (talk) 16:55, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

As i mentioned above, i feel that the 'view' section of this article is a wp:coatrack. Most all of this subsection are just Cole's personal beliefs with citations back to his website, which at a minimum, could be summarized, but im going to be bold and just remove them all as unnecessary editorializing. Biographies are not an excuse to simply reprint all of a person's views and works in Misplaced Pages. Bonewah (talk) 15:06, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I realize that Bonewah doesn't like Juan cole, but thats know excuse to erase all his viewpoints form this article and other wikipedia articles where he's referenced. These are Coles own views on his webpage. They are relevant to his political viewpoints. annoynmous 21:45, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

They still need secondary sources. I would agree that it's a bit odd to go removing biographical material from an article (thus leaving only various incidents in someone's life) while claiming to be resolving a COATRACK issue, but that doesn't mean we don't need secondary sourcing for it. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:39, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Nothing about biographies calls for us to reprint all of the man's views, at a minimum summary style calls on us to summarize his views. Seriously, look at other biographies, do you see loads and loads of opinion reprinted? Guys like william Kristol or Jonah Goldberg do nothing other than offer their opinions yet their bios contain only a few paragraphs on their views.

Annoynmous says that Cole is a respected scholar, but is he notable by the Notability of academics standard? Thats what this article should be doing, explaining why we should care about this guy at all, rather than just listing all his opinions. How is this professor different than other middle eastern profs at Michigan (or IU or Yale for that matter)? How is he more notable than other authors of middle eastern books? That is why i say coatrack about this article, because rather than establish that he is actually important enough to include in Misplaced Pages, this article merely acts as a vehicle for his opinions. Bonewah (talk) 15:45, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Well he's a tenured professor on the middle east at The University of Michigan. He spent a lot of time in the Middle East and has written on the topic extensively.

It's interesting you mention Jonah Golberg and William Kristol because both there articles specifically have sections on there political views and frequent topics they talk about. The Christopher Hitchens article where you deleted Cole from has long sections on Hitchens views.

All these views come from Coles own blog. Unless you have some reason to believe that someone is impersonating Cole on his own blog, otherwise they count as relevant to illuminating his views.

If you feel the article is too long than feel free to summarize it some, but there is no excuse for completely deleting his views from the article. annoynmous 15:57, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

The huge section that presents Cole's detailed views is cited to references 32-90. Almost all of those references are to Cole's own writings, either blog or articles. I agree with Bonewah that this material should be trimmed for brevity. One way to do that would be to focus on those of Cole's views that have been commented on by others. For that, we would expect to see citations to others' published work, not just citations to Cole himself. EdJohnston (talk) 16:07, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't mind shortening it some, what I object to is the complete deletion of his views from the article. I don't understand why we need other sources, this is Coles own blog so it's no question that these are his views. Maybe they can be condensed somewhat, but he's a scholar on the middle east and his views on the countrys in that region are relevant. annoynmous 17:50, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Okay I shortened and summarized the article some. I took five sections out altogether and removed all the long quotes from the page. I feel the article now adequately summarizes coles views. annoynmous 15:19, 8 April 2009 (UC)

I removed the references to Coles books at the top of the article as they are already referenced in the bibliography. I also removed Saudia Arabia and Egypty from the views section which reduces the entire section by half. That's not even including all the long quotes and extra fat I trimmed off from the individual entries. I consider this matter closed and the Coatrack issues dealt with. The article I feel now adequately summarizes coles views. annoynmous 16:21, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

wrong title for 2009 book

In two places the article says his new book is "Sacred Spaces and Holy War." No, that was published in 2002. His book to be released later this month is titled "Engaging the Muslim World." 75.70.64.67 (talk) 07:12, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Enlightenment and Imperialism

There is a reference in the article on Napoleon that states Cole's opinion that "propaganda" was used to "obfuscate imperialism" with reference to Napoleon's "enlightened" attitudes regarding sciences. I haven't read Mr. Cole's works so I am feeling around in the dark, but it would seem that he concludes that imperialistic tendencies would be divorced from enlightenment, secularism, and the expansion of the sciences. Why? Using force against others, whether domestically or internationally, doesn't know philosophical boundaries. Atheists, theists, scientists, righties, lefties, liberals, conservatives, basically any belief system has those who wish to inflict their philosophies by force and those who don't. Is it so hard to fathom a secular, "enlightened", science advancing world view so taken with its romanticized view of itself that it would use force on others? At the end, every system of philosophy ultimately reduces down to how man, individually and collectively, interacts with the material world. Every philosophy that I have ever been acquainted with can be exploited to coerce others with regard to their interaction with the material world. Imperialism serves to bring others with different philosophies to either change or die. I sense that Mr. Cole refuses to acknowledge historical evidence of the overly romantic and radicalized elements on his portion of the philosophical spectrum with regard to its violence and coercion. It is up to those who wish for peace to reign to hold the radicals within their particular philosophical areas to account, not pretend that their philosophies are wholly pure.--Toolkien (talk) 14:20, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

A reminder that the purpose of talk pages to discuss articles. Could you explain how your comment is related to the Juan Cole article? It seems you are trying to express something about Cole's use of the word "propaganda" which bears no relation the subject, particularly since you say you haven't read Cole's works.--CSTAR (talk) 17:12, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Intellectual

The source provided so far to support the idea that Cole is a "public intellectual" appears to be a sort of YouTube for the MIT community -- anyone can post who has an MIT email address, and there is no peer review. I don't think we can use that as a source. Any others? IronDuke 18:51, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Cf my new reference. Grunge6910 (talk) 19:09, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks -- that was already there. I moved it to an appropriate section, as it doesn't really meet WP:LEAD and the source is weak (not terrible, just weak). I still think that's the best way to do it. IronDuke 21:22, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

The Chronicle for Higher Education is "weak"? No wonder I stopped paying attention to comments on this page... csloat (talk) 23:13, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Hmmmm... your comment would seem to indicate that you do pay attention to comments on this page. Unfortunately, that is all it indicates. IronDuke 23:59, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, perhaps it indicates that I did pay attention *today* to comments on this page. It also indicates that I consider the Chronicle for Higher Education a reliable source, and I consider the claim that it is "weak" to be rather idiotic. In any case, my point was, this was precisely why I stopped paying attention to comments on this page -- people with axes to grind who try to bog everyone down in insipid discussion of ludicrous points. As if there were any serious dispute that Cole was a public intellectual or that the Chronicle for Higher Education is a well-established reliable source. csloat (talk) 00:28, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Okay. If you are going to refer to other people's point as "idiotic," then I think both you and WP would be well served by your taking this page off your watchlist. If you had an actual argument to make (and there is as yet no evidence that you do), I'm certainly happy to hear it -- if you can abide by WP:CIV, that is. IronDuke 00:34, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that even Cole's ideological opponents, such as in frontpagemag.com, call him an 'intellectual. The Squicks (talk) 23:54, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

You like frontpagemag as a reliable source? In any case, does it call him a "public intellectual?" IronDuke 00:02, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Whether it is or is not a source is questionable. My point is that even Cole's worst enemies consider him to be an "intellectual". So, we should not pretend that this is a controversial thing to include. It is not. The Squicks (talk) 00:14, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

If it's not a reliable source, it doesn't matter. If it is, it does. And did you really read my post? "Public intellectual". IronDuke 00:30, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

There is already a reliable source here that supports the inclusion of the phrase. Do you actually have an arguement to make here? Because I see nothing. The Squicks (talk) 00:50, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

The University of Michigan also calls him a 'public intellectual'. And that is what he calls himself. The Squicks (talk) 00:52, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

University of Michigan? You mean University of Minnesota? And who at the University of Minnesota calls him that? And Electronic Intifada? Really? Good source? "Do you actually have an arguement to make here?" Well, yes: it's been countering your arguments, which have been (easily) swatted away. Did you have an argument to make here? Because I'm not sure what you're advocating in terms of this article; can you be more specific? IronDuke 01:03, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Look, you're doing nothing but putting your hands on your ears and saying 'I didn't hear that'. Reliable sources exist to support the inclusion of the phrase. And the only thing that you have against that is hotair. Accept reality. The Squicks (talk) 01:06, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Refusing to respond to any of my points is a classic example of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. If you are unable to do so, please stop posting here; it's disruptive. If you are able to, great; let's discuss. IronDuke 01:15, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Three editiors support something. You contradict them. Then, you claim that others are being disruptive?! Pot, meet kettle.

He calls himself a 'public intellectual'. A reliable source calls him a 'public intellectual'. Thus, the article calls him a 'public intellectual'. End stop. End of discussion. The Squicks (talk) 01:17, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

"Thus, the article calls him a 'public intellectual'." Who is objecting to this? IronDuke 01:20, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

You are. The Squicks (talk) 01:22, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Ahmadinejad

Cole is also a vocal critic of President Ahmadinejad.

There isn't any reason not to include this, is there? Cole called his beliefs "monstrous". The Squicks (talk) 06:13, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

This should definitely be included. Once upon a time, a group of politically motivated editors were adamant that this information be censored, and they even went so far as to create a belabored argument claiming that Cole was some kind of apologist for Ahmadinejad. It was nonsense, and the involved editors have since moved on to other things (though one or two of them left after being outed as sockpuppeteers on other pages as I recall). It's been a couple years; I think this rather non-controversial statement can go back up without trouble. But who knows; I haven't really been following this page much of late. csloat (talk) 22:57, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I've seen the opposite. People who deny the holocaust themselves and who love Ahmad cite Juan Cole as a supposed ally of themselves. The Squicks (talk) 23:52, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I've never seen that myself, but I suppose people will say the damnedest things. csloat (talk) 00:21, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Copyright Law of US

The article claims

"Cole has mentioned being contacted by a lawyer representing Gibran's heirs, who asserted the family's claim to copyright, although these works (published 1905 - 1915) were clearly out of copyright."

I am not very familiar with US copyright laws, yet the starting date of copyright expiration is not the date of the publish, yet the date the writer passed away in some parts of the world. Do anyone familiar with the issue. Kasaalan (talk) 00:29, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

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