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The Collect thread

For the benefit of those taking an interest in the RfC, here is the thread that I referenced there. I've copied it here from his Talk because he deleted key responses as it unfolded there. Below is the thread with the deleted material restored.

Diffs please...

...for my calling you 'a sock for Kelly, Ferrylodge, Fcreid, THF and a few more'. Also, please, diffs for my 'friends', as you refer to them, who you allege made the same accusations. Thank you! Writegeist (talk) 20:30, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Do a WP search, and also read the names of those whom you contacted at the time. Meanwhile note the Scrambled{?} charge of socpuppetry. Then offer your apology. Thanks! Collect (talk) 20:34, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. You're more experienced at WP searches than I am, so if you're refusing, as it seems you are, to post the diffs and names (which presumably you have, otherwise you wouldn't have made the allegation) please tell me how to do a WP search for instances where I and these alleged 'friends' called you 'a sock for Kelly, Ferrylodge, Fcreid, THF and a few more.' Incidentally I didn't know Scramblecase had made a charge of sock puppetry. Against? A diff for that too would be helpful. Thanks. Writegeist (talk) 20:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

look up "wikibreak" and then look at the WQA on Ratel. should give you a start. Collect (talk) 20:46, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I have looked up 'wikibreak'. I have looked at the WQA on Ratel. Neither contains any evidence or reference for my having called you a 'a sock for Kelly, Ferrylodge, Fcreid, THF and a few more.' I asked you to direct me to instances of the accusations that you allege -- either in the form of diffs, or in the form of directions to perform the WP search that you advised. Please help as requested. Thank you. I note that although you posted a wikibreak template to this page, you have made numerous posts since. So I trust that providing this information won't inconvenience you any more than posting evasions, as you have already done twice. Thank you. Writegeist (talk) 21:10, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I note that you have not been on your advertised "Wikibreak" for some time now and that you have been posting to various pages. I would be grateful for the courtesy of a civil and informative reply on this page (or on my Talk if you prefer) to these perfectly reasonable requests:

• 1) Diffs to support your accusation that I called you 'a sock for Kelly, Ferrylodge, Fcreid, THF and a few more.'
• 2) Diffs to support your additional accusation, namely that other editors, the ones you refer to as my 'friends', made the same allegation.

IIRC, I have only ever flown one sock kite here: nothing whatsoever to do with you, and obviously not serious, it was a satirical suggestion that WP's administration might be nothing more than the two cartoon characters Dumb and Dumber plus their socks. (Cf. Eddie Izzard's crack that WP is actually written by "three people in a toilet.") Understandably therefore I'm concerned by your accusations -- not least because, if they're true, I must start worrying about my memory. Not to mention you'll have to start worrying about yours if we discover that you simply made up any or all of this socky stuff!

Thank you. Writegeist (talk) 00:02, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

3 posts a day is a Wikibreak for me. Especially since the person I asked to be my proxy in mediation declined on account of time. Ikip made the allegations, even though he is an admitted sockpuppeteer, and had over a dozen blocks and innumerable warnings) , you are an admitted sockpuppeteer, GreekParadise is an admitted sockpuppeteer, and so on. Buster wrote "Ferrylodge was "spring-cleaning" the Sarah Palin article 5 (FIVE) weeks before she was asked to join the ticket. A truly remarkable co-incidence!!! To pretend that operatives don't exist and to take editors to task for stating the obvious is improper behavior.--Buster7 (talk) 12:33, 1 October 2008 (UTC) " Others who have butted heads are Abbarocks (banned) and Spotfixer (caught as sockpuppeteer). IIRC, you had an indef block at least. " he topic of this mischievous alert should actually be Collect/Scramblecase, who is disrupting several pages on wikipedia at the moment as well as wasting my precious time. ► RATEL ◄ 00:21, 17 April 2009 (UTC) " specifoca;;y calling me a sockpuppeteer. Thus showing that you and your firends are, indeed, admitted sockpuppeteers, and that I have been falsely charged several times. That a person who has had an indef block can berate a person who has 2 3RR violations in over 7K edits is astounding. A person who wrote: "And it led me to wonder who might be whose sock over there. Writegeist (talk) 20:46, 4 December 2008 (UTC)" "The quiet patience of a saint illuminating a manuscript; the tenacity of a terrier hunting a rat. — Writegeist (talk) 07:02, 12 December 2008 (UTC)" "I don't know whether or not "Fcreid" is a sockpuppet. It's plausible." ""Warning" from one of a WP:TAGTEAM? That's rich. Writegeist (talk) 23:01, 3 November 2008 (UTC) " Your friends? "I am a Cubs fan. The pain is unbearable at times. I would no more consider watching the "fillies" win the Whirrled Series than I would....um.....a......consider Collect a good faith editor...:')....--Buster7 (talk) 13:04, 30 October 2008 (UTC) " "rIGHT....I have been the one that has been arguing with c_____t about paid operatives. It started 3/4 weeks ago...It just seemed like an obvious statement of fact that Both parties would be present to make sure that they had their say in matters. AND IT WASN'T JUST VOLUNTEERS, BUT PAID STAFFERS. I HAD NO PROBLEM WITH IT, I WAS MERELY MENTIONING IT..If I was running a campaign I would certainly want to know what was going into the Sara PALIN article. It just made sense. WELL>>>>>C_____t got all upset and said I was reprehensible for even thinking that. He/she made a big todo about it...in the hopes of shutting me up, I guess. She was the only Palin editor to have a problem with it. Ferrylodge was OK withit. No-one else got into a snit....just C_____t. Which made me suspicious. so......I started to sniff around and see if something fragrant would surface. You know the rest....see you at the Palin pages!--Buster7 (talk) 19:28, 14 October 2008 (UTC)" "I am trying to improve the article by attempting to force Collect to stop having anything to do with it. --Buster7 (talk) 02:22, 21 October 2008 (UTC)" So much for rational fairmindedness. But wait -- there's more! "It would seem that Cummulous Clowds was not alone in his paranoia. Maybe, had I known of our mutual situation, we could have compared notes.--Buster7 (talk) 05:50, 27 December 2008 (UTC)" And then, of course, "Using a tag-team is not a way around 3RR, nor is 3RR a way around NPOV, Verifiability, etc. Warn away.Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 22:16, 3 November 2008 (UTC) " "Thanks But I have a feeling these guys are getting a paycheck for this. I wonder how long they will try to keep it up.Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 22:47, 8 November 2008 (UTC)" and of course, the "best of edit summaries" from him ... "Utterly, utterly ridiculous. Black is white! Up is down!) This is pretty amusing, and around and round we go. Black is white! Up is down! Take the red pill.) Undid WP:Tagteam This material was added by consensus in talk. It will not be removed unless there is a consensus to do so in talk.) Undid Undoing vandalism. Persist in this and I will seek to have you blocked.) This is now abusive vandalism and deliberate ignorance of consensus. You've been warned repeatedly.) Lying" is not the same as "rebutting") " Introman did over twenty reverts in his first twenty edits on WP -- a record. And finally showing your status as a meatpuppet at nest. Thanks! Now back to Wikibreak. Collect (talk) 15:10, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

More on Travb/Ikip/Inclusionist et al ... and a slew more. You are known by the company you keep. And I did not need to look at 7K eduits one-by-one for this. Collect (talk) 15:27, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

More from GreekParadise: "At any rate, I feel like you should check whether Kelly, Hobartimus, and/or Collect are sock puppets of each other or somehow connected with the McCain campaign. ... GreekParadise (talk) 16:11, 25 September 2008 (UTC)" "But I'd simply ask that you check to make sure he is not a sockpuppet of Kelly or Collect, and if he's not--and there's no way to check if he's a political operative--I'd let it go.GreekParadise (talk) 20:32, 27 September 2008 (UTC) " One more example of a totally false, egregiously false, sock accusation made against me. Do you really want more such posted? I would be glad to post these anywhere you like. Collect (talk) 19:51, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

The following response was deleted by Collect:

That's just silly. There's no such accusation there. Just queries. Also, I have no "friends" on WP; just co-contributors. What other people say about you is irrelevant. Your attempt at some kind of guilt by association is not appreciated, and it does you no good here.

I asked for diffs to support, specifically and most importantly your serious accusation that I called you 'a sock for Kelly, Ferrylodge, Fcreid, THF and a few more'.

You haven’t provided supporting diffs.

Instead you posted counterproductive responses that follow your familiar pattern: first arrogant, snide and totally unhelpful; then ignoring the issue altogether, and finally hauling up a netful of red herrings.

Not only did you fail to provide the diffs I asked for. You added two more gratuitous insults, the first being that I’m "an admitted " and the second that a post from another editor proves my "status as a ] at nest" – the former WP:PA totally untrue (and of course unsupported by any diffs) and the latter unsupported by the diff you provided.

To support your allegation that I accused the SPA newcomer Fcreid of being a sock, you submit my statement, in dialogue with him at his Talk, that I couldn’t possibly know whether he was one! And you omit my explanation for raising the subject in the first place, which came later in the same post: "There's always a possibility of sockpuppetry where SPAs are concerned. Please see WP:SPA again: While a new user who immediately participates in a discussion without an edit history may be an illegitimate sock puppet, it remains possible that a new user’s contributions are alternatively the product of a disinterested third party wishing to improve the Misplaced Pages project ... (Please note there are no remonstrations, much less the officiousness SPA's can encounter here, in my responses. Just good-natured joshing.)" Dirty pool, Collect.

My reference, in the same thread, to other editors at Sarah Palin at that time acting, IMO, as some kind of "stooges" for the GOP and puppets of McCain and Palin self-evidently has nothing to do with sockpuppetry (should you be tempted to play dirty pool with that one also).

Please now provide diffs for:

• 1) your accusation that I called you 'a sock for Kelly, Ferrylodge, Fcreid, THF and a few more'
• 2) your accusation that I am an ‘admitted sockpuppeteer'
• 3) your accusation that I am ‘a meatpuppet’

Thank you. Writegeist (talk) 20:52, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

I supported the exact statements that I made -- that you and your friends made unfounded charges. Now you are on the edge of abusing my talk page. Kindly refrain from such abuse. Collect (talk) 21:08, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

The following response was deleted by Collect as "vandalism" :

Your accusation was not general as you now pretend; it was particular: you attacked me very specifically for calling you 'a sock for Kelly, Ferrylodge, Fcreid, THF and a few more.' It is not true that you "supported that exact statement." You provided no diffs for it.

As you have now proved that you cannot, in fact, support it, I think it’s reasonable to ask you to withdraw it as an unwarranted and unsubstantiated personal attack.

I note you deleted my previous post in this thread (although fortunately it remains in the thread’s history). As it comprehensively refutes your claim of support for your accusation, and as it also requests diffs for the latest in your series of wild and unfounded accusations (i.e. that I am an "admitted sockpuppeteer" and a "meatpuppet"), your deletion of it is significant. Needless to say, you have not provided diffs for your latest personal attacks on me either.

Please note: "I would never accuse anyone of anything ..." Collect (talk) 04:34, 19 October 2008 (UTC) Hm.

I note that your latest line of attack is to respond to my requests for substantiation of your other personal attacks on me, and also to my observation that you cannot produce it, with yet another accusation -- of "talk page abuse".

Sorry about your cat. Writegeist (talk) 00:48, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Significantly, Collect chose to delete responses that drew his – and any other reader’s – attention to his failure to provide any diffs to support his very specific personal attacks on me. Deleting this information from the thread serves to bolster his false claim to have provided the diffs.

The MO here: unsupported statement(s)/attack; refuting argument(s) ignored; diversions created; waters muddied with random diffs or WP policies that do not address the issue at hand; refuting arguments deleted where possible; original unsupported statement/attack reasserted as if it has been supported; dissenting view denigrated and, where possible, deleted as "vandalism". Writegeist (talk) 17:14, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

WG has interpolated material with which I disagree, and which is clearly self-serving for hinself. Collect (talk) 20:25, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

How tedious. As is clear, I have not "interpolated" any material (interpolate: 1: to alter or corrupt (as a text) by inserting new or foreign matter 2: to insert (words) into a text or into a conversation). I have copied and pasted the thread exactly as it unfolded. I have not altered it in any way. In fact I have undone two alterations made to the thread by Collect: I restored two posts that he deleted, apparently to bolster his false claims and accusation. I have added some observation and analysis after, and completely separate from, the text of the thread.

Collect, you have shown that you've come here to peddle more distortions and innuendo. That behaviour is not welcome here. If you wish to respond to my post here (i.e. of the thread that you altered to support your unfounded personal attack, which you still fail to support with any diffs despite my numerous requests), please do so in the appropriate section of your RfC's discussion page. Fyi I shall summarily delete any future posts you make here, regardless of their content. Writegeist (talk) 21:14, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Buster Baiting

@Editor:WG. Thank you for providing a place for Collect to rant. Since much of the above is about me, I am surprised that Collect has not visited my talk page. Don't mis-understand...he is NOT welcome at my Talk Page either.

He is well aware that you and I, along with dozens of other editors, spent months together at Talk:Sarah. We read each others edits and agreed or disagreed. Some made us laugh...some brought us to tears of frustration. Editors:Factchecker and GreekParadise, even Editors:Ferrylodge and Freid, earned my respect, if not for their tactics, at least for their presentation. This is true of MOST of the editors envolved at SARA.

Collect is not on my list of editors that I refer to as WikiFriends. His loss.--Buster7 (talk) 16:44, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Republika Srspska

Hi. This edit changed the meaning of a sentence. You changed "Since the war this classification was no longer relevant" to "Since the war this classification has been relevant". In any case, I think the sentence should be removed since it's unsourced and I'm pretty sure that some people in the RS still consider themselves Yugoslav. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:33, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Good catch. Thanks, you're right, I forgot to type the prefix, shoulda been "irrelevant"; and I agree the sentence should be removed. Writegeist (talk) 00:05, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Baffling

If you want to know how I truly feel, I feel that the whole RfC is laughable. If Collect acted as he did at Drudge and Fascism elsewhere I can see some ppl getting a bit upset. However, to say he's doing far more harm than good to the project is ridiculous. If those who called the RfC had problems they could discussed them rather than launching a grand jury style investigation into every misdeed that Collect has allegedly participated in. They chose to sling accusations, and demand that Collect change his behavior or else. I don't think there are many people that would respond well to comments like these: , , . This whole affair has been conducted poorly from start to finish to even characterize one side or the other as "right" is impossible. (Sorry for the long-winded explanation, I just felt it necessary to explain where I'm coming from) Keeping that in mind this statement by Brendan: SO WE ARE CLEAR... COLLECT, THIS IS ABOUT YOU is not right and indeed representative of why the RfC is flawed. The RfC isn't about one editor. It's about multiple editors trying to reach an agreement and convince one side or maybe even the other to change their ways. That's not going to happen here. Perhaps I was taking him out of context, but the idea that Collect is supposed to just take these accusations (more than one of which is just as flawed or worse than the ones he presents) and not get frustrated or lash out is a crock. Do I excuse his behavior? No, but I don't really the others as innocent either. Soxwon (talk) 14:32, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

No problem, I may come off as a bit, err..., passionate at times. I think what got me into this was Ikip's accusing me of being Collect's meatpuppet/tag team partner at Conservatism, as well as mis-representing the actions at DR and Fascism. Soxwon (talk) 16:23, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Like I said, I probably would have lost interest, or at least not have been quite as passionate if Ikip hadn't made that charge. Soxwon (talk) 21:18, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Retraction please, Collect

Collect, I have been patient with your personal attacks on me. I have merely noted them, protested them, refuted them and once, IIRC, made a request for you to withdraw them which you ignored. I have made allowances: the stress of your RfC/U; the interactions at Sarah Palin long ago; my long-ago rude remarks to other editors etc., etc. I have given you the benefit of every possible doubt, and hoped that you might simply give up these unwarranted attacks of your own volition.

Now you produce this post -- the latest in your string of unsubstantiated accusations of sock- and meatpuppetry -- which clearly insinuates that user:Brendan19 is my sockpuppet. So it seems that these gratuitous personal attacks will very likely continue unless something is done to stop them.

Hitherto, as I said, I’ve resisted taking steps beyond protesting and refuting your numerous and ongoing accusations. Now, for the last time, I ask you to post a retraction to your Talk page. Writegeist (talk) 16:11, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Your threats are duly noted. I have earnestly sought to make no personal attacks on you, and apologize if you feel that the statements are personal attacks. Thank you most kindly. Collect (talk) 17:19, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Explanation....Collect takes zero responsibility for making personal attacks. His apology is for something you are doing....(feeling)....rather than something he is doing...(attacking).... Sound familiar? BTW...Happy Mothers Day....(Thats code for "Happy Mothers Day")--Buster7 (talk) 03:56, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely. Not a retraction; a waste of space. "Happy Mothers Day" Ha ha! :~) Writegeist (talk) 06:33, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

One more before closing time

I hope you don't mind my post re:Collect's RfC. I referred to you as a Wikifriend there. I hope you don't mind that either.

"I plan on addressing the concerns raised and working to improve in the next several months".....an anonomous editor.

Had the redactor in question expressed this sentiment I could nurture conciliation. We saw NO hint of it!--Buster7 (talk) 23:58, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't mind your post at all, and neither do I mind the Wikifriend reference, as (1) it reflects the fact that we have a cordial editing relationship here and (2) I consider us both friends of the Wiki project -- another meaning that's implicit in the term. I agree it's sad that not even a scintilla of the cited sentiment has been expressed. While its absence is all too predictable in light of so much past performance, it's also tiresome to have the prediction confirmed over and over again by the resolute refusal to reform. However I like to think that one or two admins may be keeping watch. . .

If so, they will see that little, if anything, has changed. E.g. the persistent attacks about sockpuppetry. And e.g. also here. Incidentally it looks like Manticore has a good handle on the shenanigans there. :~) Thank you for dropping by! Writegeist (talk) 07:37, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

collect

You are involved in a recently-filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration#edit warring by collect and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—

• Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration#Requesting Arbitration;
• Misplaced Pages:Arbitration guide.

Thanks,--Brendan19 (talk) 19:38, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

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