Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 05:23, 22 May 2009

I believe in this.

Anything less will destroy us in the end. rootology/equality 03:27, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

• It's about damned time someone wrote something like this. To be honest, I don't think it will ever because a policy, because that would turn the way things work around here on their ear, but it is a good start if people will start treating everyone from admins to IP users the same when they commit bad behavior. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 03:53, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
• Hear fucking hear. //roux   04:39, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
• I agree 1000%, but I doubt that this will come easy. Let me read through the current discussion, and see if I can think of anything. — Ched :  ?  05:23, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

If you disagree with my proposal...

Why? This policy has no element of WP:CREEP, as it simply calls for application on all of us, of what is already policy. It's a meta-policy, perhaps. If you honestly feel not all users should be held to the same standards, I'd honestly like to understand your reasoning for that. rootology/equality 03:50, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if I disagree, rather than think that it is not needed. Rules are already in place to deal with these matters and even if this was a policy, it would just be ignored anyway.--Jojhutton (talk) 03:53, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Policy should be descriptive. It isn't descriptive to pretend that all users are treated equally. --MZMcBride (talk) 03:56, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

No, it's not descriptive, because not all users are treated the same today. That is the broken thing that this change corrects at long last. Policy proposals aren't descriptive; WP:3RR when written was a New Bright Thing that changed lots of things. rootology/equality 03:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Should I write WP:TWOLEGSBETTER then? --NE2 04:06, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

To Jo, there are no policies or 'rules' today to enforce that all users are subject equally to all policies. We see it daily--someone slips through the cracks, because they're known, or known of, or an admin, or something else. This being policy is why it's so simple. If a situation comes up, where it's happening, and someone has archived the thread, or deleted the thread, or something else--you restore it, you point to this. If they bury it again you restore it again, and you point to this. If they do it again, you take it higher up the WP:DR train; all the way to WP:RFAR, and you simply say, WP:EQUAL, and that's that. If you're calm, and civil, and tactful, you can't be blocked or sanctioned or anything for insisting that the rules and policies of this site be followed correctly. The point is to make it clear that the bad old ways are not acceptable anymore. rootology/equality 04:07, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

It's not realistic. We value High Quality contributors far above the stoned moron whose edits for 15 minutes straight are '$subject has a boner'. When a regular contributor flips their lid because of the morons, we should not treat them the same as the morons. Morons get an instant block, regs do, and should, get a reminder to log off and go for a walk. Regs deal with subtle and 'civil POV Pushers', and other situations where at least one side is counting on, and likely, intending to push the other's buttons to create a problem, to take advantage of the rules. Happens often enough that holding up a 'everyone gets the same under the rules no matter what' template, or policy, is a guarantee that sheer numbers of POV pushers will be a winning technique. If you can provoke at a one-to-one, you just need one more than your opposition to 'win'. The ability of people to discuss a situation at AN/I and consider the circumstances is what helps us keep the POV pushing and imbeciles to a minimum. ThuranX (talk) 04:10, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

The lack of a policy to deal with civil POV pushing is a whole separate matter unrelated wholly to this viable proposal, and is actually a separate, just as simple idea I'm working on, where any violation of any Foundation Principles on English Misplaced Pages would be a blockable offense. That includes WP:NPOV. rootology/equality 04:12, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Geeze, that's more draconian than even I would support. NPOV gets violated as much by eager, earnest but innocent editors as it does by agenda warriors, more so in fact. Those new editors are still far better served by an introduction to our policies. Your hypothetical proposed proposal would instead assume everyone is on equal footings in terms of skill, language, and understanding befoer a single edit. That's not going to pass any community review. ThuranX (talk) 04:24, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, as written just there it would be draconian as hell, that's why I'm not proposing we block POV pushers for POV pushing today. :) That is however a problem that has to be fixed, someday, and one of the biggest problems we have. Saying we have to fix that is like saying we have to fix global warming before we fix pollution. rootology/equality 04:32, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I see a lot of problem with sock-puppets bringing up this one in deletion discussions, !votes, RfC, arbcoms, users demanding to have admin powers (if everyone is equal, everyone should have the same tools), users declaring moronic opinions to be equally valid to well thought-out ones, etc... Soon or after you'll have to realize that users are not equals. Some are better than others, some are smarter than others, some are nicer than others, and some are more important to the project than others. The appropriate policy is WP:AGF which covers all of the things this essay wishes to cover without opening the most epic loop-hole possible. Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. Headbomb {_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 04:53, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Standing of technical powers "buttons" is not covered in this, so anyone trying to say they should be admins because of this would be laughed away--it's like saying I should have the nuclear football like Obama since we're both human. Not how it works. But, if Obama and I both shot someone dead in front of a television camera in cold blood, we'd both be up for murder one. That's the point of this.

I've also realized not every user thinks they're the same--I've been here since 2005. The problem is, that users not being treated the same is an ongoing problem, disruption, distraction, and drain on our morale and resources. This doesn't democratize Misplaced Pages in any way, shape or form, and gives not one extra inch of influence in discussions to a single sock, or anyone else. It literally is just, "All the policies apply the same to everyone." If anything, sockmasters, especially if they're actual real users socking it up, are more fucked to be impolite if this comes to pass, since they sometimes get a free pass on socking today. rootology/equality 04:55, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Nice theory

But in practice things will return to the status quo of IPs getting indeff blocks for uttering an epithet and admins rampaging about like enraged mastodons.Drew Smith What I've done 04:09, 22 May 2009 (UTC)