Revision as of 06:12, 24 May 2009

• WT:AC/N
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Discussion of agenda

Audit subcommittee

I'm a bit confused:

1. Appoint initial subcommittee members by April 25
2. Prepare subcommittee procedures by April 25
3. Appoint final subcommittee members by June 1

Why two groups of members?--Tznkai (talk) 01:14, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The structure of the subcommittee isn't final yet—although I would expect an announcement very soon—but one of the possibilities is to have a mix of Committee-appointed and community-elected members; the gap in the schedule is intended to cover a possible election. Kirill  01:24, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Hokay. --Tznkai (talk) 01:44, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Discussion of announcements

Standard operating procedure: CheckUser and Oversight

Original announcement

Well done. When does the timer start on people with the tools today? From today? Or from the last time they used the tools? Is there any plans for a minimum threshold of uses in a given time frame? Or if I'm a CU, can I keep it indefinitely with one check per 365 days? rootology (C)(T) 00:21, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Do we really want to be doing all we can to get rid of as many CUs as possible? For my part, I'd like to know what the method for recovering the permissions is. I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be "on request", barring exceptional circumstances. ] 07:22, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

No, we don't want to get rid of CUs to get rid of CUs, but no "rank" on Misplaced Pages, from +Rollbacker up to +ChairoftheWMFBoard or +ExecutiveDirector(the people really in charge) are permanent. Any of the technical ranks can be removed from any user at any time if the community deems it required to be removed: Abuse Filter editors, Account creators, Administrators, Bots, Bureaucrats, Checkusers, Founder, IP block exempt, Imports, Oversighters, Rollbackers, Stewards, Transwiki importers, Uploaders.

Since we are currently requiring for the community to vet and validate anyone with access to the AC, CU, or OS capabilities, I would imagine any user who has not previously been vetted in public by the community would be--that's what the AC said previously, at any rate. I wanted to confirm and to make sure the system couldn't be easily be gamed by a random (even if needed) CU every 300+ days or something similar. rootology (C)(T) 13:14, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

If CUs are "gaming" this system, we have bigger problems than inactivity.

I remain unconvinced by the argument that elections are worthwhile, particularly for people who have previously been trusted and considered competent before, unless circumstances have changed dramatically.

One more question for the Committee: is the functionaries-en mailing list included in this measure?

] 16:34, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Some of the people with CU or OS access rarely used them. These people don't need the tools. We don't need lurkers on Funct-l, CU-l, and OS-l, so the people not using tools or commenting in discussions will be removed from the lists. FloNight♥♥♥ 16:55, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. The categories listed at Misplaced Pages:AC#functionaries-en are "Arbitration Committee members and former members, CheckUser and Oversight operators, and selected other editors". Are we to presume this has changed? Are you going to remove these guys from the list? Are we to assume, then, that functionaries-en is no longer considered by the Committee to be an advisory group and that it solely exists for the purpose of co-ordination among users with the CU and OS permissions? ] 17:05, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Just speaking as an outsider, but I've been getting the vibe since last year's AC that the general trend is heading toward the sitting, elected-by-the-community making decisions, or wanting to, without all the prior arbs weighing in on everything... and that the sitting arbs would go to them when they want feedback. Which makes sense, since so many of the new Arbs the past two years came in with demands from the community to fix what many perceived as a failing, archaic system, and reinvent aspects of it. Which they're definitely doing. rootology (C)(T) 17:10, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Fine. Then say so, do it publicly and be done with it. I for one would absolutely respect that. If I was on the Committee, I might well even vote for it. I am less impressed by the gradual creeping move to remove the ancien régime under the pretence of inactivity. ] 17:21, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, they seem to want to baby-step it along, which I can respect as well, since we know that everyone here reacts so well to sudden change. ;) In fact, I wish they (the sitting committee) would go all out at once and announce that future AC elections would be ratified solely by the community (there is an exceedingly simple and fair method for that here) and then limit all the core lists to people who need to be on them. Appointment to the AC directly from the Community, control of the AC from the Community, no offense to Jimbo--the AC can keep him on the list if they want, since it's their list--but if you did this and added in shorter terms (2 years) and term limits (2 terms), you'd have a constantly evolving and vibrant AC year over year that answers to no one but Misplaced Pages itself. But imagine if they did that all at once--people would be berserk. rootology (C)(T) 17:27, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that these points tend not to have been phrased in this way but in (rather incredible) terms of inactivity, and done in a little-by-little way rather than up-front and openly. If the members of the current Committee want to remove former members from the list (and I think they do), then let's hear that. ] 17:52, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

No, the people that have access as former arbs will remain on the funct-l IIRC, ArbCom-l was pruned periodically in the past to remove people that were no longer active. Similarly, we will likely prune the Funct-l of people that do not comment in order to keep the membership of the list to active users that are engaged in the discussions. FloNight♥♥♥ 17:13, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

No, arbcom-l was not pruned. And what on earth is the rationale for "keeping the membership of the list to active users that are engaged in the discussions"? Confidentiality? Again, we have bigger problems if you don't trust the members of the list to keep things private. ] 17:21, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

There have been leaks before from all of the lists. rootology (C)(T) 17:23, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I need to check the archives to make sure, but I do think that it was pruned to remove people that were no longer active. The issue is more complex that saying that we don't trust users to keep issues private. We know that in some situations issues have been leaked from private lists. The leaks happen for a variety of reasons. But in each instance decreasing the number of people with access decreases the risk of accidental or deliberate leaks. The leaks are of great concern to the Committee. We want to give people greater confidence in the Committee and Committee related lists, so removing lurkers seems prudent. FloNight♥♥♥ 17:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

The confidentiality argument is a reasonable one, although I'm sceptical it will have any impact whatsoever. What will you do if a list member removed for inactivity comes back and asks to be let back on the list? ] 17:52, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

FloNight is correct about past pruning. Paul August ☎ 17:50, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

My mistake then. I confess to being surprised -- could you give me a name or a date? (Privately, obviously.) ] 17:52, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Sam, you participated in the discussion last March (2008) when we removed 5 former arbs. :-) FloNight♥♥♥ 18:06, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

How embarrassing! ] 18:09, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Resignation

• Sam Blacketer (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Fys (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Dbiv (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Original announcement

Thank you for all of your work on the Committee. It's a thankless job and you've served admirably. --MZMcBride (talk) 17:37, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the hard work, Sam. I have three questions for the Committee, and Jimbo, that both require answers for the community.

1. Was your history as Fys (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) known to Jimbo and AC before your election and appointment?
2. Were they aware edits between your two accounts overlapped?
3. Are you being replaced with the next runner-up from the last election?

Thanks. rootology/equality 17:45, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

1. No, the current Committee was not aware of the past history here. We're still looking into whether anyone else may have been informed, however.
2. See #1.
3. Given that the Committee is currently well ahead of where we traditionally have been in terms of both size and level of activity, there aren't any current plans to call up additional members until the next regularly scheduled election. That may change as we move forward through the year, though.

Kirill  17:51, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

• I was not aware and my informal checking with other former members has not revealed that other arbs or former arbs knew. I thank Sam for promptly addressing our questions over the last 24 hours so we could move forward. I agree with Kirill that we do not need to replace him now. FloNight♥♥♥ 18:03, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

• I didn't know about Sam's alternate accounts, and as far as I know no one else knew either. Paul August ☎ 19:04, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

• Adding my confiormation that this wasn't known by any arbitrator I'm aware of, last year. So far as I'm aware, Sam's contributions as an arbitrator were both above board and of a uniformly fairly high quality. I'd be prepared to review that impression upon evidence, but that would be so for any user or functionary. FT2  22:42, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

After the facts become clearer, I think a motion from the Committee with a brief background and timeline would be appropriate. --MZMcBride (talk) 18:12, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, and thanks Kirill and Flo. Sam-- you were a fine Arb during your time. Thank you. rootology/equality 18:18, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Fys (talk · contribs) was renamed from Dbiv (talk · contribs) CHU.

In 2005 Fys was elected an admin (RfA) and ran for Arbcom in 2006 (ACE), he was desysopped in 2006 (RFAR) for extensive abuse of admin tools.

In 2008 Sam accepted and voted in the RFAR on William M. Connolley and Geogre RFAR, among other things restricting WMC's admin abilites. In 2006 Fys filed an RFC against WMC who had blocked him .

In 2006 Tango (talk · contribs) blocked Fys and in 2008 Sam made extensive comments about Tango at his RFAR. I wonder if the arbs can indicate what type offwiki (Mailing list) comments were made in regard to this case after Sam recused.

I've identified another account that is related to Sam/Fys, however it is his real life name and not otherwise linked these accounts. Is there any knowledge of this account to ArbCom?

I agree with MZMcBride that further comment/motions from ArbCom will be required.MBisanz 18:45, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

For the record, Sam Blacketer has made the current Committee aware of the other account you refer to here. Risker (talk)18:57, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree. I believe Sam should also be desysopped in light of the passed deysop motion against Fys. Utterly disgraceful. Abusing the trust of this community and misusing your admin tools and your judgment as an Arbitrator. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 18:55, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Wait, what? What past desysop motion?? I just saw Nishkid's diff. I agree, and at the least any access to AC tools, CU, OS, etc., need to be immediately removed today. rootology/equality 18:56, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Let's slow down a bit. If there isn't serious misconduct as Sam Blacketer, and he created the new account to make a clean start and move past his problematic history, then immediate tar and feathering can wait until a full account has been developed. Nathan 19:00, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Fys desysopped. He abandoned Fys/Dbiv, returned as Sam Blacketer, gained adminship and membership into the Arbitration Committee, and participated in cases against individuals who he had clashed with (WMC, Tango, etc.). I see serious misconduct all over this one. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 19:02, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

And as I noted above, he overlapped both accounts. This is very bad, on the same wavelength of the games that Poetlister pulled on Wikiquote. rootology/equality 19:04, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree that such participation is wrong, but I still think it behooves us to approach this situation more carefully and with a full understanding of the facts. His participation in the WMC case did not effect the outcome, and he recused from the Tango case after a single paragraph of comments which did not effect the outcome. Yes, such behavior is wrong; but it absolutely does not rise to the Poetlister level, and even that outcome waited on a complete investigation. Nathan 19:13, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

<-I tend to agree with Nathan here. Sam is a prime example of someone who learned from his earlier mistakes and made a fresh start. While, in hindsight, it has the appearance of impropriety, I don't believe it was done in bad faith. I also don't believe that an investigation of Sam's conduct toward those involved in Fys's desysoping & blocks (the investigation does need to happen) will turn up any bad faith actions. --Versageek 19:15, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. Everyone take three steps back, make a nice cup of tea, and allow the full facts of this situation to unfold, before jumping to any rash conclusions. We've already driven one editor away from Misplaced Pages this week for past actions that were blown way out of proportion. Let's not make it two. Happy‑melon 19:20, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Versageek, how is deceiving the community about their past not an action of bad faith? If he honestly felt he had a good track record as Sam Blacketer, why didn't he appeal his previous desysopping to the Arbitration Committee? Why did he feel the need to continue covering up his past, if he didn't believe that his past would cloud his chances of political ambition on Misplaced Pages? What does this say about the Arbitration Committee if Arbitrators are willing to overlook the fact that he was formally desysopped in 2006? Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 19:23, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Steady, you're doing it already. It only "says about the Arbitration Committee" if they were aware of the coverup and wilfully took no action; you have absolutely no evidence that that was the case. Equally, you have no idea what actions were or were not taken and why. Unfounded speculation is the source of 99% of on-wiki drama, in my opinion. Happy‑melon 19:31, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and at this point there is no evidence that either present or former AC members knew anything about this. As I said above I didn't know and I have no knowledge that any others did either. Paul August ☎ 19:42, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I was actually talking directly to Versageek. I mistakenly thought Versageek was on the Arbitration Committee, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Sorry for the confusion. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 19:45, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I've finished my researching and only found a couple more noteworthy points:

Fys showed he was deeply involved against JzG (talk · contribs) at JzG resignation, insulting JzG, more JzG insults (among many other places), after JzG had blocked him . Sam voted on the JzG findings at a past RFAR and is currently voting on JzG findings at a current RFAR.

Sam commented extensively on Everyking's appeals at RFAR talk and voted on at least one of the motions that dealt with Everyking and Phil Sandifer. Fys endorsed Phil Sandifer's response at RFC.

Fys was blocked by Viridae . Sam voted to admonish Viridae at RFAR.

Fys supported SlimVirgin's position at RFC. Sam voted not to desysop SlimVirgin link. MBisanz 19:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Maybe I'm just blind, but where did Fys support anything at the SlimVirgin RFC? --Conti|✉ 20:23, 23 May 2009 (UTC) Nevermind, found it, he was User:Dbiv at that time. --Conti|✉ 20:31, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

• Concern - There was previously this thread calling for Sam to be outed. I am concerned with the participation by certain people above here and in that community. I think that their level of conduct is particularly unbecoming, especially their status as an admin, and their pursuit of this issue is to create drama and disruption, and not about the integrity of this community. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:24, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
  • That's a link to a Misplaced Pages Review thread, for those who care about such things. ] 19:43, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

To Sam: thank you for your service and by doing the right thing and resigning from the Committee. This comes as quite a surprise, so let's not rush to judgment. Would like to see a full explanation, preferably by Sam himself. Respectfully, Durova 19:27, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

For people reviewing, it is probably worth noting there are 2 block logs, one for Fys and one for Dbiv since block logs were not transferred in old renames. MBisanz 20:24, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I take it that the committee did not find out about these other accounts of Sam's back in February when he indicated his intention to resign? It would be good if an approximate timescale of when the committee found about them was provided. Davewild (talk) 20:41, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

They found out roughly 24 hours ago. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 20:57, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Based on correspondence from an arb, on the functionaries list, I believe that Sam informed the rest of the committee last night. Paul August ☎ 20:58, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you both. Davewild (talk) 20:59, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

(←) There is absolutely no reason for desysoping Sam at all. — Aitias // discussion 21:40, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Aitas, I think you are making an indefensible argument.

1. Concurrent use of multiple accounts, a potential breach of WP:SCRUTINY.
2. Failure to disclose prior block log at WP:RFA.

I think those are reasons to take a closer look. Had there been full disclosure of these circumstances, the community might not have granted ops. Jehochman 22:37, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Given MBisanz's findings, case updates?

Can someone please review the cases that Fys/Sam/whomever voted on, and if he was inappropriately voting there, see if any of the fixed decisions would have been altered 1) without his vote, 2) with the majority having been changed? I am absolutely against any such findings, decisions, or remedies (if any) standing, and they need to be undone if his vote decided them. If any have lapsed, but were thus affected, I'd like to ask the AC to issue official apologies to the affected individuals. rootology/equality 19:49, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to go on the record here to state, without hesitation, that no such thing should take place. While Sam definitely should have made this disclosure earlier, and that it is almost certain that his probabilities of having been elected would have been significantly affected if that information was known before he had a seat, those votes were made while he was an arbitrator in good standing. There are a number of things Sam should have done, but there is no suggestion that he has not acted as an arbitrator with diligence and neutrality during his tenure— or that his votes have suddenly retroactively become invalid.

This new information means that his continued presence on the committee is not appropriate— not that he has become an unperson and that every trace of the past two years need to be "undone".

If anything, Sam is an illustration that it is possible to turn over a new leaf from a bad start on Misplaced Pages to become a respected and productive member of the community. I agree that he went about it the wrong way, but not that his past behavior is suddenly false. — Coren  20:22, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm somebody who had a bad start and turned over a new leaf, using the same account, not a new one. If Sam had recused from the cases where he should have, your logic would be sound. Any case where he should have recused but didn't should be subject to review upon appeal by any party. It's not fair to have an adversary participating in the deliberations. Jehochman 20:31, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Just echoing what Jehochman said. I don't want the entire AC history reviewed and 'overturned' back to his appointment, just a review of the cases he was required to be recused on (which MBisanz has been citing extensively already). rootology/equality 20:40, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, recusal is usually determined by the arbitrator themselves. Unless the community considers the rest of ArbCom uninvolved on matters relating to Sam Blacketer (which if it did, would be riddled with problems of its own), the options available are limited and time-consuming. Ncmvocalist (talk) 20:45, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, this is a problem all around, since Arb recusal should be enforceable in some way. The "doomsday" situation of an Archtransit or Poetlister reaching the AC has happened, here. Something needs to be done to make sure everything Sam touched was clean. rootology/equality 20:53, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

There was not evidence that Sam was indefinitely blocked on another name. This verifies that his account was not indef blocked. He also did not operate on an outside website and manipulate many admin here to helping him get around his indef block. As such, your comments are highly inflammatory and a gross breach of Civil. Sam is still a member in good standing regardless if he lied or not about who he is. He already resigned, so any of the above claims are purely punitive and damaging. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:05, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree with Ottava here, what he did may have been somewhat deceptive, but comparing him to banned users who only acted good to be able to abuse the admin tools is rather inappropriate. I don't think there's anything to suggest that the only reason he was a good user was to become an arb and abuse his authority. Mr.Z-man 21:11, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

This leads to a more general question, tho: When should an arbitrator recuse? Should an arb recuse himself when he signed a view on an RFC about a party to a case three years ago? That doesn't seem very practical to me. --Conti|✉ 20:52, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

That's actually a very good question, and not one that's trivially answered. Most of us use a fairly simple standard ("Can I be impartial, and will I be perceived as such?"); and many of use interpret even that fairly liberally— I will usually recuse on request when the case is marginal. But I agree with you that "Has interacted at some point in the (distant) past" rarely justifies recusal. — Coren  21:00, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the issue here is what should qualify for recusal?, but are there facts that are relevant?. The participants in these cases were unable decide if they should ask Sam to recuse because they were unable to connect his prior actions. Admin and Arb actions should be trackable, even if it is through userpage redirects, rename logs, etc. Otherwise it obscures transparency. MBisanz 21:05, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

In that, we agree. In fact, that Sam participated on a number of cases where his recusal would, in normal circumstances, be considered is the primary reason why his resignation has been tendered. My point is not that this shouldn't be the case, but that reexamining those cases a posteriori would not be useful and is not required or justified. — Coren  21:18, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I think we can ask the question, Would a reasonable arbitrator have recused in this situation? If somebody had blocked Fys, no way should Sam have been in on those deliberations. The Committee would not have permitted it. Jehochman 20:57, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Strongly agreeing with Coren here. — Aitias // discussion 20:48, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

From looking very briefly at his voting on those cases, I don't think removal of his votes would not impact on the findings made. I didn't look in too much detail though. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:04, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Confirming that like others, I had no knowledge of Sam's prior accounts until the last day or so.

On the general issue of when arbitrators should recuse themselves in given circumstances, I have posted my own views on this issue on the workshop talkpage in the Ryulong case, for whatever it's worth. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:17, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Statement forthcoming

There will be a statement from the Committee sometime this evening (EDT). — Coren  22:26, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

hopefully it'll be along the lines of 'Sam done wrong, and has had all privileges removed from his account, we hope he'll stick around and edit productively 'cos we're nice people.' Zero drama, and the right thing to do, I reckon. Privatemusings (talk) 23:00, 23 May 2009 (UTC)ps. while we're in 'uncovering naughty behaviour, but maybe it's all ok' mode - d'ya reckon I could get amnesty on my alternate admin. account brewed up during my site-ban, and whom I have to work quite hard to keep below the radar - it'd be cool if I could just step into the light, and carry on admining...? ;-)

Cheeky boy, be patient. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:13, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

If the result is "let him keep admin rights" despite his blatant abuse of the community's trust, what's the next step? If Arbcom doesn't like the idea of desysopping him, what chance in hell does a case have to desysop him? Majorly talk 00:44, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I must admit I hadn't thought much on the admin aspect of it, having only just been able to digest this since finding out yesterday Oz time. We will discuss. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:57, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

< statement's posted now - I'd give it a solid 6 out of 10.... with poor marks for timeliness, and failing to end the matter in one dull swoop by resolving the admin. question in the only possible reasonable way, by removing sam's admin.ship - it's no big deal anyway, right? Privatemusings (talk) 05:12, 24 May 2009 (UTC)... and I've gotta say that I think Coren's becoming my favourite arb! It's my view that only a gigantic boob would oppose such sensible measures... and sure enough :-)

So...

Are there any other arbitrators who wish to come forward and admit they are reincarnations of a desysopped admin? This is incredibly embarrassing (for ArbCom), to put it plainly. Does "Sam Blacketer" still have admin rights? I would surely hope as well as resignation from ArbCom, his admin rights are handed back too. Majorly talk 23:21, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

If someone has been desysopped for abuses in the past, it seems inappropriate to run again under a new account without disclosing that history. At the very least, another pass through RfA with a slightly more optimal level of honesty and disclosure would seem reasonable. MastCell  23:37, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

It's such a shame actually. I never thought Sam or whatever he's called was abusive, or misused his tools. The fact he passed under a new name, hiding his past, just goes to show what a polical arena RFA is. It's not about whether the person would make a good admin (which I don't think anyone is disputing), but whether the guy has behaved or not for an arbitrary period. I've said it before: RFA should be about whether the candidate would make a good admin, not your own personal opinion about the individual. Whether he would have passed as Fys is unknown, but perhaps if he'd waited awhile, he would have done. Sigh. Majorly talk 23:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

@Majorly: Why? — Aitias // discussion 23:39, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Uh, because of his blatant deceiving of the community; his abusive sockpuppeting; his COI voting as an arbitrator. I could go on, but it's so patently obvious I shan't. A question to you: why should he continue, after deceiving the community the way he has? Are you saying it is acceptable to leave one username, and return as another, and make no mention of the fact you were desysopped for abuse, at any point? Majorly talk 23:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I dunno, but this explains a bit... that you should have to ask doesn't really speak that well of you, aitie :-) Privatemusings (talk) 23:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

@Majorly: No, I don't think this is acceptable (it's indeed unjustifiable) and I'm in perfect agreement with you — however, the point I was trying to make (above) is that we should not ignore the very huge amount of good work Sam has done. Hence, I cannot see a reason for desysoping him — no instances of abuse of the tools as Sam Blacketer (i.e. while using this username) have been presented. Taking this into account, desysoping appears to serve no other purpose but being punitive. Of course, in case I'm missing something, I'd appreciate any pointer. — Aitias // discussion 00:02, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Tons of editors have done good work, who would never be admins, because of their "bad" past. Adminship is not a reward for good behaviour or work. ArbCom voted to desysop Fys, therefore Sam should have run as Fys. Instead he deceived the community. Someone who has betrayed and misled people this much, regardless of whether they abused tools or not, is unfit for adminship in my view. Adminship involves having a certain level of trust in the community. Finding out this has been going on behind our backs is hardly trustworthy. Majorly talk 00:06, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

To be honest, I disagree that it's embarassing for ArbCom. They have no control over who is elected to the Committee, and rightly so. I'd say it's more embarrasing for the community, but even then, barely so. --Deskana, Champion of the Frozen Wastes 00:58, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

ArbCom's credibility has just suffered a new low with this. Majorly talk 01:52, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Majorly, just what could ArbCom (by which I mean the 15 current arbs) have done to avoid this? As soon as we became aware of this we paid it immediate attention, and we are currently discussing the wording of a statement on the matter. It takes time to get agreement between 15 people on the wording of a statement, and not all of us are around yet to contribute to the discussion. If you want to help prevent this happening again, please come up with some constructive suggestions. Carcharoth (talk) 02:18, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I have no idea, I'm simply stating facts. Taking a firm approach and desysopping the user in question should have been the obvious response to this. Majorly talk 02:32, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Agreeing with Majorly. This has every appearance of being yet another example of wikipedia's two-tier system of justice. Firm action's required, not hand-wringing; regular editors don't get away with undeclared sock accounts. --Malleus Fatuorum 02:38, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Do you have evidence that Sam personally attacked people or acted incivil? Do you have evidence that he blocked people inappropriately? If so, please provide it. He already stepped down over the matter, and he only desired probably what you also would desire - a chance to start with a clean slate without having done anything majorly problematic. Yes, it was bad that he had two accounts simultaneously, but is there proof of abuse during that time? If so, please provide. Of all the people that we should be forming a mob to attack, I think Sam is far down on that list. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:49, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, see the evidence near the top of this thread. Also examples: , , , etc etc. There's loads more, just look through the contribs. Majorly talk 02:57, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Anything not over 2 years old? If you want to make a case for there being a double standard that he isn't desysopped now, you should definitely show incivility that is less than a year old. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:04, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

He didn't use his other account after 2007 so you're asking for the impossible. The fact is though, he was making those kind of comments while he was grooming his Sam Blacketer account up for adminship (and later arbitratorship). He would never have been endorsed by the community had they known this. This deceit and sly behaviour is unbecoming of an admin. He might not have abused tools, but he abused the community's trust. Majorly talk 03:07, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

How do you know? The comments seem mild and I've seen people say far nastier things and pass their RfAs. And deceit at an RfA? Did you call for Tan's desysopping? Or are you? Ottava Rima (talk) 03:12, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Who is Tan, and what has he got to do with someone being desysopped for abuse and returning under a new name and getting adminship, whilst still continuing to edit under the previous name, making frequent uncivil remarks and personal attacks? Majorly talk 03:21, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Your recent point was about being deceptive during an RfA - Tanathas was a case of just this that was revealed rather quickly. I'm surprised you didn't know about this, as it comes up quite often at ANI and WT:RFA when talking about "gaming" RfA. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:28, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

He admitted he gamed the system? That's nothing compared to this. Majorly talk 03:35, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

(to Ottava): "He already stepped down over the matter, and he only desired probably what you also would desire - a chance to start with a clean slate without having done anything majorly problematic." I don't desire that at all as it happens. I'm not ashamed of anything I've done; admittedly I may not do it exactly the same way again today, but neither would I run away. --Malleus Fatuorum 03:26, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, if you don't desire for people to hold a few early mistakes against you, which obviously snow-ball over time (people like to all it "progressive blocking"), I'm sure you can understand someone who would, no? I'm not asking for him to be seen as innocent (as he isn't). But I am trying to point out that what he did was understandable and not as awful as a lot of people. Merely perspective. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:31, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

"Clean start"

I thought this was accepted practice, per Misplaced Pages:Sock puppetry#Clean start under a new name. The overlapping was presumably done to keep those who'd connect the dots from interfering with the clean start, which seems to have been successful. I do wonder how many regular editors are actually "reincarnations" of this type, but I don't care if they do good work. --NE2 23:25, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

It's not a clean start, as he has apparently been voting on things that affected his former (desysopped) account. Also it says "Discontinuing the old account means specifically that the old account is not used for editing ever again." Sam edited with it again. Majorly talk 23:32, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Discontinuing the old and starting the new simultaneously would kind of give away the clean start to anyone editing in the same general area, no? --NE2 23:37, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

A clean start would typically also mean editing all new content areas, and not voting in Arb decisions in line with your previous username's disputes, as well. rootology/equality 23:43, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Editing all new content areas? Seriously? Shouldn't improving the encyclopedia in one's area of expertise be the important thing here? --NE2 23:48, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Always, that comes first, and that's just one of the two examples I cited. Based on this information and tool, the Sam and Fys accounts heavily overlapped. The problem is that if you go back in again with a new name on the same content areas, if there are disputes, it's flat wrong, as it gives you an unfair advantage in content disputes over the older users. The other important (more important) factor is staying away from your old conflicts and conflict areas. rootology/equality 23:51, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

So were there any old conflicts that Sam carried over from his old account (apart from the recusal issue)? That's a serious question, because I honestly don't know the answer. --Conti|✉ 23:54, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Since when does "a clean start" mean "editing all new content areas"? That sounds kinda weird. I suppose you could say that a clean start means that problematic behaviour should not resurface, which might mean editing all new content areas, depending on the situation. --Conti|✉ 23:52, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

That's always been my interpretation. You and I get into x number of fights over the years over Some Page. We both net 5 blocks in 2 years over it, and then one of us vanishes, comes back as someone new--and I go right back to Some Page eventually, with a clean record. How is that right? rootology/equality 23:54, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Depends what the blocks were for...were they for revert warring, or for personal attacks? Does the old argument resurface, or has it been resolved? --NE2 00:00, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

That entirely depends on your behaviour. If you come back and act collegial, honor policies and guidelines and clearly improve Some Page, then I'm really not sure if your previous block log matters much at all. If you act just like you used to, tho, and soon earn another block, then yes, that would be an entirely different situation. --Conti|✉ 00:00, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

This is the page when Sam created the new account. There is nothing about a clean start there, and there are a lot more loopholes and relaxed views on the matter. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:46, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

To be pedantic then, if the written policy at the time (December 18, 2006) described practice accurately, then what he was doing was even moreso wrong. rootology/equality 23:49, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

In February 2004 the Arbitration policy on transparency was added and has essentially remained that way since then. John Vandenberg 23:51, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Notifications

Should we notify the most affected parties as none of them seem to have commented thus far? By my figuring it would WMC, JzG/Viridae, Phil Sandifer/Everyking, Tango, and Calton. MBisanz 00:37, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there's any urgency. Let the Committee have a chance to make a statement. Jehochman 00:41, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough, it is a holiday weekend so I suppose things will move slower than usual. MBisanz 00:41, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh and I should note I am wearing my editor hat here, not my clerk hat. If there is arbitration related-work to be done, I shall be recusing as a clerk. MBisanz 01:01, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it would have made a difference in either my or JzG's rulings from the C68-FM-SV case (he is just one arb). The name Fys didnt ring a bell until I saw the entry in his block log where I blocked him, then it all came flooding back. Viridae 02:32, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I hate to ask this

But it may be prudent, so I can play the villain as always. Has he been Checkusered to ensure everything today is on the up-and-up? rootology/equality 01:27, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

No, he hasn't. If ArbCom wants to do that, that's their call. I'm steering clear. --Deskana, Champion of the Frozen Wastes 01:30, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

No. Please hold off on this for the moment, until the committee has made a statement. As Nathan has said above, lets take this slowly. There is plenty to digest already. John Vandenberg 01:34, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

No no -- I emphatically didn't want CUs to all leap at once. But I simply hope that the results (negative or positive, and if positive, which accounts beyond that certain one are disclosed--we have to treat Sam like any other user here) are either included in the statement or announced swiftly afterward. rootology/equality 01:37, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Why aren't checkusers done on all ArbCom members when they are newly elected? Or are they? Seriously, I don't know. --Moni3 (talk) 03:01, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Why would they be? Checkuser is not for fishing. Majorly talk 03:03, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Moni - well, if we want to go that route, why not have all admin CU'd also? Simply put, chances are people will just game the CU system by using the various tricks to get around it. Also, CU would probably not be able to look a year back to find out. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:05, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

To ensure decisions made about content and against editors aren't being made by users who have been previously blocked by subjects in ArbCom disputes. I had to get my fingerprints processed in every state I sought to teach in. I didn't see it as fishing. --Moni3 (talk) 03:08, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

CU, Oversiters, and ArbCom have to identify themselves now, however, it seems that Sam came before that change was made so there is already a system in place. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:13, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

It seems perfectly sensible for me, but it's against foundation policy for use of checkuser. Though of course, it is very easily gamed. Majorly talk 03:14, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Then let's ask the Foundation to authorize checkuser of every editor seeking access to a position of trust. This seems prudent. Yeah, people may try to game checkuser, but evading checkuser takes considerable effort, which will discourage some. Jehochman 03:17, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I would increase that to anyone who votes at any elections (RfA, ArbCom, etc) also, to be honest. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:24, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Forgive my ignorance, but is checkuser anything more than an investigation into an editor's IP address? --Malleus Fatuorum 03:20, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Not really. However, it is sometimes seems like a scary black mark that gets people who act like sockpuppets all riled up and offended when you go to request a CU on them. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:24, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

CUs can also see the operating system and browser details. Maybe more things too. Majorly talk 03:23, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

It's a limited inspection of the web server logs. When you request a web page, the URL, your IP, your browser type and version are all recorded. Checkuser looks at a subset of that data, related to editing only, not viewing (I hope!). Whenever you visit any website you reveal this info to the website operator. Also,  CheckUser is not for fishing is a tradition of en-wiki. Checkusers are authorized by the Foundation to use their tools however may be prudent to protect the project. Fishing is not prohibited by the Foundation, as far as I know. However, it would not hurt to ask them for clarification before implementing wider use of CU to protect the integrity of our elections. Jehochman 03:27, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

The data that CheckUser draws on is entirely separate from the web server logs. When the extension is installed, the regular recentchanges table is supplemented with a "cu_changes" table which records IP, XFF and user agent information along with the regular information about the change. Page reads are in no way recorded. --bainer (talk) 04:06, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Checkuser's code is open source; what it collects is not secret. IP, Agent (your browser, browser build, etc.). If you click on this link--I don't own this site, no idea who runs it, visit at your own risk, etc.-- http://whatsmyuseragent.com/ -- you can get an idea of the kind of data Checkuser can capture today and in the future. That is it, legally. rootology/equality 03:30, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Man, if anybody ever checkusered me they'd get a headache. I use at least four different browsers and hop around on all sorts of IP addresses. Jehochman 03:35, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I shudder to think how compromised my reputation would be if CU recording viewing information. I'd like to keep my television entertainment preferences sheltered from public view.--Tznkai (talk) 03:36, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

CUing my Tivo would make people laugh. And not from the preponderance of Family Guy, The Soup, and the Daily Show... rootology/equality 03:39, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I see thanks. In that case who does a checkuser on me will think that I have an unhealthy obsession with medieval English bishops. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 03:44, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

We all here are knowledgeable enough to know that CU is useful in discovering things that most on Misplaced Pages would be had, but we are also all knowledgeable in our experience (long term editor, admin, Arb, et al) here to know that a requirement option is fundamentally flawed. Forget all beans, I use a Sprint aircard. I think we know how easy I could IP hop if I choose. I could be Ottava! I do, however, consider myself to be a trustworthy person and I do my best to maintain honesty and accountability. So if I ran for RfA today, and you CU'd me, I could hide another account with ease. Misplaced Pages does not need a Patriot Act to keep it safe, all things in time will sort themselves out. Remember this guy? One of the most open secrets in our political history. Haste is a devil. Keegan 05:26, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

A point

I would ask that, when ArbCom prepares a response, to consider that Sam was one of the few ArbCom members not to have CU or Oversite tools (and the only not to have both) and the possible positive or negative reasons behind him not seeking the tools. In terms of the community, Sam did start off and make many, many edits at the beginning, which shows knowledge and use that makes it hard to assume that his account was new. There are many others like that who have been granted admin tools. He was also granted ArbCom status after only a year. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:39, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion for the future

Could we make it a stipulation in future that all ArbCom candidates must publicly disclose previous accounts before the election? If there are privacy concerns, they should at least disclose publicly the number of accounts, timeframe, and number of edits with those accounts, then send the usernames to Jimbo.

As things stand, some candidates are asked if they've had previous accounts, and some aren't. Some give clear answers, some give ambiguous ones. SlimVirgin 03:40, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

The names should be sent to the AC, not Jimmy. One point of failure is unacceptable, and the trend is to move away from the old model. If people don't trust to disclose to the AC itself, why are they even running? rootology/equality 03:42, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

They may well be asked to disclose, but people lie. Majorly talk 03:44, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

The names of accounts can't be sent to the ArbCom if there are privacy concerns, because we don't know who all members of the ArbCom are, as this case shows clearly. We can't ask people to send names of previous accounts that might identify them into a void. If not Jimbo, then Cary, but it has to be a known, named, responsible person. SlimVirgin 03:50, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

The simple solution for this is the ensure that the current committee is trusted by the community. This is needed for other reasons, and is part of why this why this is happening right now. John Vandenberg 03:55, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Part of the reason it's not fair to ask people to trust it is that we don't know who everyone is (or used to be), so we can't just say "the solution is for the Committtee to be trusted." It's a vicious circle. Best thing is if ArbCom candidates are formally asked to disclose upfront. If they can be trusted, they won't mind doing it, surely. SlimVirgin 03:57, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I am pretty sure it was a standard question for all candidates in the last election, but I havent checked closely. It was part of MBisanz's questions. John Vandenberg 03:46, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

... and it looks like not all candidates filled out a guide: Special:PrefixIndex/User:MBisanz/ACE2008/Guide/. If an arbitrator hasn't been asked, it should be done. And I am sure the community will be very keen to ask this in the future. John Vandenberg 03:49, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

John pointed to this earlier, which already stipulates the above and has been in place since 2004. Although the second point may allow for some privacy, the third should have been enough to expect information of previous accounts to come out to the committee then. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:49, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

There is something different about being formally asked to disclose as part of the election criteria, and being asked more casually by another editor during the election. The former would concentrate the mind more, and would make the candidate realize they were about to commit a fraud. SlimVirgin 03:53, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Irrespective of when and how it is asked, arbitrators and candidates are expected to answer questions of this sort honestly. If they dodge the question it should be explicit that they are refusing to answer. John Vandenberg 03:59, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

What's the point, really? Are you suggesting "Sam" did not realize what he was doing? Do you think that the next "sam", whomever he used to be, will read that question and think, "gosh, I never thought it might be a problem that I was banned last year?" What would we be doing differently now if we had a diff of a formal questiona dn answer to point to? Thatcher 04:00, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

(ec) John, if you look at the number of candidates and number of questions, we can't assume that a queerly-worded response to, "Have you had previous accounts?" will be spotted. What is wrong with making disclosure one of the nomination criteria? SlimVirgin 04:01, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I am in full agreement that these questions need to be integrated into election process for the future. Ideally it should happen prior nomination, but that isnt as important as it being done prior to appointment. We often have late entrants, so we dont want to add a hurdle. Arbitratators should also be identified prior to appointment - arbcom-l has sensitive info flow across it all the time, from checkusers or oversight situations that are difficult. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Policy#Transparency needs to be updated to reflect the shift in the expectations of the community.

We also need these same questions put to sitting arbitrators so there is no grandfathering going on. John Vandenberg 05:27, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Probably the only way to actually stop this--and that's doubtful, if enough time has elapsed--is compulsory Checkuser on everyone the day they announce their candidacy. And if they're smart, they let their Old Bad History lay dormant long enough. If someone did it for malicious reasons, and had half a brain, they can get away with it. User:EditWarrior2004, real identity unknown, blocked in Jan 2009, could be admin User:John Smith III by the end of 2009, known by real name, and running for the AC in December 2010, giving his drivers license to Cary in January 2011. How would you tie them together, if he didn't tell you? rootology/equality 04:06, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

My guess is that most people who do this don't fully understand how fraudulent it is. I think that especially applies to older users like Dbiv, who was here when Misplaced Pages was a much more casual affair. It would concentrate the mind wonderfully if they were expected formally to declare that they had never operated previous accounts, before being allowed to stand. Of course, the very dishonest ones will lie. But a formal declaration would weed out the mostly-honest-but-not-taking-this-deception-very-seriously brigade, which I suspect covers most Wikipedians. No one has said why requesting prior disclosure would be problematic. SlimVirgin 04:12, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

This makes sense to me. Paul August ☎ 04:21, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

IT's not unreasonable, I just think it won't yield useful results. (Checkuser won't help if the candidate has a lick of sense in his head.) Thatcher 04:25, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I think this would be useful - I believe some folk take advantage of some of the gaps in these areas, so in fact, 'sam' can genuinely say that he told no direct lie, and many out there in the 'real world' will struggle to see that he did anything wrong at all. Forcing an arbcom candidate to tell a direct lie might give some pause for thought - particularly if folk have real world status to think of (it seems sam is a local politician, for example). Privatemusings (talk) 04:33, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Asking for disclosures forces people to go on the record with a statement that can be judged true or false. Lying by omission is much easier for most people than saying something that is outright false. Thatcher,  CheckUser is not magic pixie dust, but if people have to actively dodge, it makes deception harder and some will screw up and get caught. Jehochman 05:12, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, I asked each nominee in the last election if they'd used any other accounts within the last year. I suggest that it be asked of every candidate in future elections. I can't recall now why I limited it to one year, but most respondents replied that they'd never used any other accounts.   Will Beback  talk  05:18, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Will, you and Matt had the right idea. I had thought that it was a question to all candidates (see above). We need to go back and check all answers by the successful candidates. I think the community was aware of this potential problem at the end of 2008. The problem was that during prior elections we had lower standards. A lot changes in a year around here, and we should be avoiding grandfathering people in implicitly - grandfathering in should be explicit and discussed. I am also beating myself up about this a bit, as I asked about Sam Blacketer back in December, but I accepted the answers I was given. John Vandenberg 05:53, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Would it help to require identification to be a candidate, to weed out all but the most determined folks? rootology/equality 05:36, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

IMO, from my online experience, it wouldn't do any help at all. Intent to deceive or mislead, whether for malevolent or benevolent intent, cannot be stopped if the agent of action is determined in their goals. As I said in my post above, Misplaced Pages does not need a Patriot Act as a result of this. Privacy on the internet is of utmost importance for achieving our goals here and elsewhere. Just my personal philosophy. By the way, my name is Keegan. Keegan 06:02, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Privacy is good, but to be on the AC you have to surrender your privacy to the WMF. That's just how it works. rootology/equality 06:05, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

A corollary to my post: What Jayvb stated above, not before candidacy, but before the appointment, in regard to my statement. Keegan 06:12, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I think we need to remember the Chinese proverb: "The fish rots from the head". What's required now to restore faith in a system that looks increasingly creaky day by day is for every one of the present ArbCom to agree to be checkusered. Otherwise how can anyone know who is to be trusted? What happens after that is for the future. --Malleus Fatuorum 06:07, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

You're saying CU every single sitting Arb, and then force disclosure of the results to the AC as a whole? rootology/equality 06:09, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes. And before anyone asks the obvious question I would have no objection at all to being checkusered myself. --Malleus Fatuorum 06:10, 24 May 2009 (UTC)