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Intro change

The change made to the intro does not make sense: "Prem Pal Singh Rawat (Hindi: प्रेम पाल सिंह रावत) (born December 10, 1957), also known as Maharaji (formerly known as Guru Maharaj Ji and Balyogeshwar). The teachings of Prem Rawat include a meditation technique referred to as Knowledge. "

Pergamino (talk) 13:54, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Teachings of Prem Rawat tell us that there are 4 techniques. The current lead (a technique) is therefore incorrect, as well as clumsily written. Do other sources agree he used the phrase "spiritual tranquillity"? I have never come across it before. , and it sounds like OR. Rumiton (talk) 15:59, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

The recent change makes sense, though it is a little clumsy grammatically. I think the point was to make for a better link. But it leaves the the first sentence as a fragment. Maybe we should just undo it.   Will Beback  talk  17:42, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

The first sentence is just a line giving the man's name and titles. It should be a sentence in the form X is Y (Prem Rawat is...). PiCo (talk) 23:06, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the first sentence should be a complete sentence with a verb and it should give the main claim to notability. See WP:MOSBIO.   Will Beback  talk  23:58, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Tried to turn it into a proper lead sentence but not entirely happy - how do you describe his line of work? (Wonder what he puts on his passport?) PiCo (talk) 01:42, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that passports list professions. In any case, I don't think the qualifier you used is correct. A more correct description would be "Prem Rawat (blah, blah, bah), is a public speaker and a teacher of meditation techniques referred to as Knowledge". The "formerly guru maharaj ji" already establishes that he was a guru. Pergamino (talk) 01:52, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:MOSBIO#Opening_paragraph

• 1. Name(s) and title(s), if any (see, for instance, also Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (names and titles));
• 2. Dates of birth and death, if known (see Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Dates of birth and death);
• 3. Nationality –
  • 1. In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable. (Note: There is no consensus on how to define nationality for people from the United Kingdom, which encompasses constituent countries. For more information, please see the essay "Misplaced Pages:Nationality of people from the United Kingdom" and the talk page archives.)
  • 2. Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.
• 4. What the person did;
• 5. Why the person is significant.

That looks pretty good to me. But I'd cut it a bit shorter, like: "Prem Rawat (blah, blah, bah), is a teacher of meditation techniques." Leave out the "public speaker" (that's how he does what what he does - more important is what he speaks about), and the bit about "referred to as Knowledge" (a little more detail than is needed in a first sentence - it can come later). Incidentally, what does he speak publicaly about? PiCo (talk) 02:17, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

• Yeah, that may work. The official site has some Zen-like quotes but nothing else, and in following the links from the official site I find http://tprf.org/: "Prem Rawat has traveled the world for forty years, bringing a message of peace"; and this http://mspeaks.com/ which seems to be just on what he speaks about. Pergamino (talk) 02:34, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

• Prem Pal Singh Rawat ... is a religious figure and entrepreneur of Indian origin. The teachings of Prem Rawat include a meditation technique referred to as Knowledge.

Rumiton pointed out that the techniques are plural, so it might better to make that change. Also, "spiritual" might be better than "religious" because the movement asserts that it isn't a religion.   Will Beback  talk  03:17, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Would it be more accurate to call him a "spiritual teacher"? Could also mention the meditation technique if it's really central, but from listening to to the talk on the link I didn't get the idea that meditation was what he himself felt was central. PiCo (talk) 07:12, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

The meditation is central. It's just that there are public presentations and private presentations. The actual techniques are "secret", so public presentations don't go into details, if I understand correctly.   Will Beback  talk  07:20, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

• Maybe the place to start would be some references ? What evidence is there that Rawat ‘is’ an entrepreneur ? or that he is ‘religious’ or ‘spiritual’ ? The abundant sources are for what Rawat ‘was’ not what he is, this problem with ‘tense’ has undermined the accuracy of this article from the very beginning. The MOSBIO format only reinforces this problem and editors need to think creatively if a false picture is not to be given to the reader.

Rawat ‘is’ (was) notable for being a ‘god child’ leader of an Indian originated religious movement that was translated into ‘Western’ contexts, much of this notability arising from the various controversies affecting this process of translation. The vast bulk of Reliable Sources available to Misplaced Pages editors on this subject date from between 1971 and 1981 – this being the period in which Rawat was notable. Of those sources which have been published since 1981, a majority reference only the period prior to 1985 with the last 20 plus years being mentioned only in contrast to the earlier period.

The meditation itself hardly stands as a point of notability (other than being ‘secret’ it’s not exceptional), though it was certainly the locus of the presentation of the belief system developed by Hans Rawat. I would suggest that the words “is a religious figure and entrepreneur of Indian origin” be replaced by “succeded in 1966 to the leadership of the Divine Light Mission (Divya Sandesh Parishad), following the death of his father Hans Rawat.” This would be the end of the first paragrah

I then suggest altering the second paragraph to read:

Having become at aged eight Satguru to the several million adherents of the Divine Light Mission, Rawat gained further prominence five years later when he travelled to the UK and US. In the early 1970s the Divine Light Mission was judged to be the fastest growing new religious movement in the West. In 1973, at age sixteen, Rawat was granted emancipated minor status and married a Western woman, which divided his family and the movement. Prem Rawat retained control of the movement outside of India, and took a more active role in its guidance. He became a United States citizen in 1977. Rawat later abandoned the Indian aspects of his teachings to make his message more universally acceptable.

The third paragraph would be unchanged except for the addition of “Several organizations have assisted Rawat in his mission, including Elan Vital (1983), and The Prem Rawat Foundation (2001)”

The issue of entrepreneurship is dubious - although there claims on pro Rawat websites that he is an entrepreneur, there are no public documents detailing Directorships, CEO posts or anything else that would confirm the claims. The issue of spirituality is best avoided in the lead because it is tied to the changes which need detailed descriptions. What the lead needs to do is set up the article as a primarily historical account of what Rawat was, not what he is - because the former involves notability, and the latter doesn't. The use of the term "Satguru" as opposed to "guru" is important in respect of the article references to the origins of the Hans (Prem) Rawat belief system. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 11:24, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

As the person who put this word "entrepreneur" into the lead sentence can I just say that I now regard it as a complete red herring and would like to see it removed. I'd like the see the lead sentence say Prem "is" rather than "was" something - it makes it sound as if he's dead. How about: "PR (insert interminable titles) gained prominence in the early 1970s as the titular (is that right?) teen-aged leader of the Divine Light Mission, described at the time as fastest-growing religious movement in the West. As an adult he split with the original DLM (if that's right - correct me if I've got it wrong) and is now a spiritual teacher emphasising meditation practices" (again, if that's right). What I'm trying to do here is establish the grounds of his notability in the first sentence - this sentence should be able to stand alone as a summary of the entire article, even before going on to the lead itself. PiCo (talk) 11:40, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

If not exactly a red herring, it certainly does not help to define the subject's notability. Whatever happened to discussing edits on the talk page first? Rumiton (talk) 13:12, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

PiCo, what you are seeking is laudable, but you are mashing history in your attempt to achieve it. If you are not happy with the wording I've suggested, then you need to set out your preffered wording strictly against the chronology - the key points are.

• 1966 Hans Rawat dies, Prem (aged 8) becomes leader (Satguru) of the Divine Light Mission (Divya Sandesh Parishad) in India.
• 1971 Prem (aged 13)travels to the UK and US - there's lots of media attention.
• 1974/1975 The wider DLM movement splits along family lines, after which the belief system in the non Indian base diverges from the Hans Rawat doctrine.
• 1981(ish) The non Indian DLM movement shows no further sign of expansion, and actually retrenches progressively thereafter.

Please be aware that if you restructure the lead, you may need to seek different references than those currently used, which may be highly specific to the text as it is. The issues to note are that Prem didn't 'gain prominence' in 1966, he was already known to his father's followers, but rather he was 'elevated' on his father's death; adoption of the DLM by elements of the 'counter culture' in Europe, Australasia and the US in the early 1970s, brought Prem as head (titular is correct but you need a source for it) of DLM, to media atention in those geographic areas. Western academics started to take an interest in Rawat largely through the youth/counter culture aspect, while the media were exercised firstly by ice cream and cars, then by girls, booze and cars. By the end of the 1970s no one outside Prem's existing loyal followers was interested and it's been downhill in the 'prominence' stakes thereafter. Contemporary Indian 'spiritual' imports such as TM have continued to have large memberships and affect societies into which they were introduced and media and academic sources reflect this, additionally other Indian 'spiritual' leaders/speakers/teachers have impacted on Western countries - Amma, SS Ravi Shankar becoming far better known than Prem Rawat. Prominence is necessarilly a relative term - Prem Rawat was indeed once prominent, but compared to the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi or Amma, he is no longer.--Nik Wright2 (talk) 14:42, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

• I've restored the old lead, the one we had before a random user came through.
• Prem Pal Singh Rawat (Hindi: प्रेम पाल सिंह रावत) (born December 10, 1957), also known as Maharaji (formerly known as Guru Maharaj Ji and Balyogeshwar) teaches a meditation practice called Knowledge.

There's nothing significantly wrong with this version, though the wikilinking is a little clumsy. Let's not keep rewriting the intro unless there's a good reason.   Will Beback  talk  17:47, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

• • The "random user", PiCo, is making good points despite the initial unintended blunder. Hey, PiCo, don't be discourage by Will Beback! Ascribing the adjective "random" isn't very welcoming, but I guess some people in wikipedia are less collegial than others as I have personally learned. Pergamino (talk) 18:54, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
    • The user I was referring to is Billyoffland. PiCo has been engaging in useful discussion.   Will Beback  talk  19:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I think Pico and NikWright2 have both made good suggestions for the lede. Here are things I think need to change:
1) change "a meditation practice called Knowledge" to "a meditation practice he calls Knowledge." This matches the lede of Teachings of Prem Rawat, which policy requires.
2) Make more clear that he succeeded his father as head of DLM. The current phrasing makes it sounded like he up and started preaching out of the blue and quickly acquired 3 million followers, which is inaccurate and misleading.
3) reword the organizations line, which makes him sound like the passive recipient of help from these organizations, again misleading and serving the POV of his organizations. Better yet, drop it altogether from the first paragraph.
4) Cut the third paragraph drastically. It has way too much information for the lead, and much of it reads like a brochure from his organization. The simplest way would be to end it after the second sentence (with 'body of dogma.') To wit:

"Prem Pal Singh Rawat (Hindi: प्रेम पाल सिंह रावत) (born December 10, 1957), also known as Maharaji (formerly known as Guru Maharaj Ji and Balyogeshwar) teaches a meditation practice he calls Knowledge. At the age of eight, he succeeded his father as leader of the Divine Light Mission and its 3 million followers in India. He gained further prominence at thirteen when he traveled to the West to spread his message. "

2nd paragraph the same, 3rd ends after second sentence. Msalt (talk) 20:38, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

• I'd agree to the first sentence as you propose, but don't agree with your other ideas and comparisons with brochures and as having too much information. It is a good summary of the article and quite accurate. Pergamino (talk) 20:56, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Is everyone else on board with the first sentence? Let's put aside the third paragraph for now and look at the second sentence of the lede. I think it's important to state in the lede that he succeeded his father as head of DLM at a young age, because that was (and remains) his main claim to notability. It also "sets the scene" for the information that follows in the clearest, most concise way.

In contrast, the current wording -- "At age 8 he became guru to 8 million ... 3 organizations have assisted him" -- is both longer winded and less accurate a picture of what happened (in my humble opinion). Thoughts? Msalt (talk) 18:03, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

That's fine by me, but can you add (Divya Sandesh Parishad) to run on from "Divine Light Mission", because although there will be a link to the DLM article, we should not assume the reader will immediately grasp the chronological sequence of the development of separate organisations using the Divine Light Mission name. Providing the Divya Sandesh Parishad name makes a useful reference point to distinguish between the organisation of Hans Ji Maharaj and the later "western" DLM's. Also I think Hans Ji Maharaj should appear in that first sentence. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 20:03, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

The Hans Ji addition makes sense, but I don't quite see how DSP would fit in. (Can you suggest wording?) My gut feeling is that that would be too much detail for the lede but might make sense in the article body. How's this:

"Prem Pal Singh Rawat (Hindi: प्रेम पाल सिंह रावत) (born December 10, 1957), also known as Maharaji (formerly known as Guru Maharaj Ji and Balyogeshwar) teaches a meditation practice he calls Knowledge. At the age of eight, he succeeded his father Hans Ji Maharaj as leader of the Divine Light Mission (and its 3 million followers) in India. He gained further prominence at thirteen when he traveled to the West to spread his message. "

That looks fine to me. It's an improvement over the existing lead.   Will Beback  talk  00:04, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

• Yeah, looks fine to me too (just remember to link to the teachings: " a meditation practice he calls Knowledge"). But keep the names of the organizations there, unless you want to move that to somewhere else in the intro. Pergamino (talk) 03:20, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Good points, Pergamino. I agree, the other organizations should be in the intro, probably at the end of the third paragraph. How about this, after "acceptable" (I know the exact wording is important): "The Divine Light Mission was disbanded in the West in the early 1980s, succeeded by the organizations Elan Vital (1983), and The Prem Rawat Foundation (2001)." Msalt (talk) 04:44, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

• ok Pergamino (talk) 05:15, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Since we're tinkering - "Prem Pal Singh Rawat (Hindi: प्रेम पाल सिंह रावत) (born December 10, 1957), also known as Maharaji (formerly Guru Maharaj Ji) teaches a meditation practice he calls Knowledge. At the age of eight, he succeeded his father Hans Ji Maharaj as guru to 3 million followers in India and gained international prominence at thirteen when he traveled to the West to spread his message. The preceding unsigned comment was added by Momento 01:40, 16 April 2009.

Momento! You've got to be kidding, right? There are 8 Arbcom votes to topic ban you for a year, in large part over your edit warring about Balyogeshwar. And now you're going to try to sneak it in, with no description other than "since we're tinkering" in an unsigned comment? Um... some might consider that bad faith editing. Msalt (talk) 03:58, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Still fighting over "Balyogeshwar"? Let's leave that dispute to mediation, as we agreed.   Will Beback  talk  02:54, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

• suggested amendment to accommodate (Divya Sandesh Parishad) but also remove reference to follower numbers.

"Prem Pal Singh Rawat (Hindi: प्रेम पाल सिंह रावत) (born December 10, 1957), also known as Maharaji (formerly known as Guru Maharaj Ji and Balyogeshwar) teaches a meditation practice he calls Knowledge. At the age of eight, he succeeded his father Hans Ji Maharaj as leader of the Divine Light Mission(Divya Sandesh Parishad) in India. He gained further prominence at thirteen when he traveled to the West to spread his message.".

The adherence numbers are given by several sources as being as high as 8 million, but there is no source which distinguishes between followers of Hans Rawat, (and latterly Prem) and the following of DLM/DSP. The problem we have to address is the chronology of change from adherence to Hans Rawat (which predated DLM/DSP), the inheritance of that adherence by Prem - and subsequently the split of that adherence between Prem and Satpal. By according the adherence numbers to the DLM/DSP, rather than to Hans Rawat, it makes the explanation of how the adherence was later split somewhat problematic as Satpal took over DSP, but did not attract all those who had previosly accepted Prem as the Satguru. As there is ambiguity that needs explation I suggest the adherence numbers not appear in the lede. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 10:24, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not really up to speed on the numbers issue, but I think we need something to indicate the approximate scale. Dropping the numbers altogether would, I think, allow some readers to think the number of adherents was much smaller than it was. How about "succeeded his father as leader of the Divine Light Mission (Divya Sandesh Parishad) and its milliions of followers in India." ?? If we had evidence of a sharp drop off in membership, you could say "and millions of its followers in India", but unless there is such evidence I think the first wording is more neutral. Msalt (talk) 15:30, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

• That's a sensible approach. Pergamino (talk) 17:23, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, Downton lists the Indian membership at 1.2 million by the early 1970s.   Will Beback  talk  17:48, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I suggest "succeeded his father Hans Ji Maharaj as leader of the Divine Light Mission (Divya Sandesh Parishad)and becoming the new Satguruto his father's several million Indian followers". Divya Sandesh Parishad had only been in existence for six year when Hans Rawat died - yet he had been 'teaching' since at least 1930; I realise that the sources we have, frequently use DLM as the reference point for adherence numbers, but we don't actually have a reference for the 1966 figures which makes sense. We do have a clear statement of the membership of the DSP (as distinct from adherence to the Satguru (Hans or Prem) in 1970 that is "one lac" or 100,000.

• Shri Maharaj Ji realised the necessity of following a modern technique for propagation, and wished to provide for his followers an organisation in which they could work for the betterment of mankind. Therefore, in 1960 the mission was named the Divine Light Mission and registered at Patna. For the first time membership in the Mission was recorded. This allowed Maharaj Ji to see the definite growth of membership, enabling him to make practical plans in accordance with the wishes of the members. At Present the Mission has its branches all over India as well as in England and South Africa. Its membership runs approximately into one lac. .

This was written by the incumbent Secretary of the DSP who might be considered an authorative source. Note also the mention of 'branches' in England and S.A, as distinct from the later nationally independent DLMs. The Divine Light Mission article uses this source for a figure of 6 million in 1966 but this is clearly a confusion between adherence to the teaching and actual membership of the DSP association; the DSP Secretary would hardly be talking of one lac, if the actual membership was in the millions. I think the construction I've suggested may be a bit 'weaselish' but if we have to quote numbers in the lede I can't see an alternative that isn't going to be confusing, if not outright misleading. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 20:23, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good, and I don't think it's weaselish at all, just precise. I like this wording a bit better but same meaning I think: "succeeded his father Hans Ji Maharaj as leader of the Divine Light Mission (Divya Sandesh Parishad) and as the new Satguru to millions of Indian followers."

• You need to add that he was 8 years-old when he became guru, which is one of the things that made him notable. Pergamino (talk) 21:04, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I think it's in there. See below. Msalt (talk) 21:17, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

New Lede (Draft including above suggestions)

Reset here for clarity, and because I think we're close to done if not completely done here:

Prem Pal Singh Rawat (Hindi: प्रेम पाल सिंह रावत) (born December 10, 1957), also known as Maharaji (formerly known as Guru Maharaj Ji and Balyogeshwar) teaches a meditation practice he calls Knowledge. At the age of eight, he succeeded his father Hans Ji Maharaj as leader of the Divine Light Mission (Divya Sandesh Parishad) and as the new Satguru to millions of Indian followers. He gained further prominence at thirteen when he traveled to the West to spread his message.

Rawat has established his teachings in over eighty countries, and in the early 1970s the Divine Light Mission was judged to be the fastest growing new religious movement in the West. In 1973, at age sixteen, he was granted emancipated minor status and married a Western woman, which divided his family and the movement. Prem Rawat retained control of the movement outside of India, and took a more active role in its guidance. He became a United States citizen in 1977. He later abandoned the Indian aspects of his teachings to make his message more universally acceptable. The Divine Light Mission was disbanded in the West in the early 1980s, succeeded by the organizations Elan Vital (1983), and The Prem Rawat Foundation (2001).

Msalt (talk) 21:17, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm happy with that. The description of DLM disbanding is an issue, but it should be resolved on the DLM and Elan Vital pages first and changes made here as a consequence of that. I've made some observations at --Nik Wright2 (talk) 07:52, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Great. Everyone seems to be on board, so I'm going to put this in. Msalt (talk) 07:54, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I also made a slight change to the alternate names -- removing the parens, so "also known as Maharaji (formerly known as Guru Maharaj Ji and Balyogeshwar)" became "also known as Maharaji and formerly known as Guru Mahjaraj Ji and Balyogeshwar,". I don't think this would be controversial, and I think it definitely reads better, but since we didn't discuss it I put it in a separate edit in case anyone wants to revert. Msalt (talk) 08:06, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Looks good to me.--Rainer P. (talk) 08:13, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

"Though he originally aspired to bring about world peace, the idea being that peace would come to the world as individuals experienced inner peace, he now places his attention on helping individuals, which according to him takes priority over societal aims." How did this bit of miscarried logic ever get into the lead section? Grammar constructs a contradiction, where content actually does not. And how do the footnotes support the statement? I am going to delete the sentence, if it cannot be improved. Rawat stated from the very beginnings, that he was going to bring peace to single human beings, and that was how peace was to be spread in the "world", and never claimed anything else. There was no change in strategy. He is still working on it (said so in Berlin 2008), and (O.R.) quite successfully so.--Rainer P. (talk) 23:07, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

That's almost a verbatim copy of what a recent scholarly book says.

• Originally he aspired to bring about world peace, but now he focuses on the needs of the individual, which he says take priority over the demands of society. Aldridge, p. 59.

Do we have a source for your assertion? Please don't delete this text until we have agreement on this.   Will Beback  talk  23:27, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh sorry, Will, you are right and I had got the footnotes mixed up. It is indeed what Aldrige says, even though it is a weak statement for a lead, and if the section was to be shortened, this one should go out, for the named reason.-Rainer P. (talk) 03:41, 26 May 2009 (UTC) It can't be deleted then, but should be moved to a less prominent place, perhaps in "Westernisation". Opinions?-Rainer P. (talk) 03:58, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Let's deal with one change at a time.   Will Beback  talk  04:14, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Some additional comments

The first paragraph of the lede states, "At the age of eight, he succeeded his father Hans Ji Maharaj as leader of the Divine Light Mission" Further into the article we read, "Because of his youth, effective control of the DLM was shared by the whole family." And in the DLM article we read, "As Rawat grew older, he began to take a more active role in the movement and, when he turned sixteen, following the financially disastrous Millennium '73 festival, he took administrative control of the US branch. His increasing independence and his marriage to a non-Indian in 1974 caused a permanent rift with his mother and two of his brothers. They returned to India, where his eldest brother Satpal Maharaj gained control of the Indian DLM."

I am at a disadvantage because I do not have copies of the sources. Do Downton and Lewis disagree with Melton and Fahlbusch or is the first paragraph wrong? My guess is that, as the articles state, Rawat did not take control because at 8 years old he was was far too young, probably never took control of the Indian branch and did not assume control of the US branch until he turned 16.

The first paragraph should therefore read,
Prem Pal Singh Rawat (Hindi: प्रेम पाल सिंह रावत) (born December 10, 1957), also known as Maharaji and formerly known as Guru Maharaj Ji and Balyogeshwar, teaches a meditation practice he calls Knowledge. At the age of eight after the death of his father, Hans Ji Maharaj, he became Satguru to millions of Indian followers. He gained further prominence at thirteen when he traveled to the West to spread his message.

The last part of the last sentence in Paragraph 3 may also problematic. "...which according to him takes priority over societal aims. " appears to be a vague, sweeping statement. What societal aims? Does Aldridge support his statement by quoting Rawat or are we expected to accept what may be an aberrant finding without supporting evidence? Again I am at a disadvantage because I do not have a copy of the book. --Zanthorp (talk) 04:21, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand your main point. I'm pretty sure that there are sources which say that the subject became the spiritual leader or head of the DLM on the death of his father, when he was proclaimed the satguru or Perfect Master. I don't believe any of the sources contradict each other on the basic framework, which is that he had little control when he was very young, but that he took on more responsibility as he grew older. I think that deleting the DLM name from the lede would be removing the subject's chief claim of notability.

As for the "priority over societal aims", that is consistent with many sources that I've read, according to which the subject says that inner peace must come before world peace. The subject, so far as I'm aware, focuses on self-development rather than societal change. If so, how would this be an abherrant finding? However I'm not sure we need it in the intro. Due to some recent edits the "teachings" paragraph of the intro has grown so it'd be good to cut it back down to a proportionate length.   Will Beback  talk  04:45, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

PS: Aldridge is readable here: You can search on Rawat to find the appropriate passage on p. 59. Aldridge asserts that Rawat once espoused world peace, but then gave up that aspiration and now "focuses on the needs of individuals". I think scholars may disagree on that point, which is perhaps a good reason to leave it out of the intro.   Will Beback  talk  04:52, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks very much for the link. My main point is that the first paragraph assertion that R succeeded his father as leader of the DLM is, in effect, contradicted by the Childhood section of the article and also by the DLM article. The article tells us that control of the organization was shared by his family due to R's youth. In other words, at 8 years old he was too young to exercise control and therefore too young to lead the DLM. In other words, no control - no leadership. I think that common sense would tell the average reader that an 8 year old kid who spends his week days in school cannot lead an organization, especially one of that magnitude.

In contrast, the article does support the notion of him becoming "satguru" to millions of followers. Satguru = true guru]; guru = teacher or guide], so satguru translates as true teacher or true guide. According to the article, his father previously taught him the meditation techniques, so presumably he would have been able to do the same, and he travelled at weekends talking to followers as his father had done.

If Downton and Lewis both state that R succeeded his father as leader, maybe it would be better to include that in the Childhood section where it can be presented in a more realistic context. For example,

According to Downton and Lewis, Rawat succeeded his father as leader of the DLM, but because of his youth, effective control of the DLM was shared by the whole family.

The DLM is adequately covered in the 2nd paragraph of the lede. With a minor edit to paragraph 2, its removal from the first paragraph would not be a problem. As a bonus, the lede would become shorter. What do you think? --Zanthorp (talk) 07:56, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

External links

Added {{No more links}} to External links sect. Cirt (talk) 13:59, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Durga Ji

• Time, One Lord too Many, Apr 28. 1975
  • Then last year the guru wed his secretary, Marolyn Johnson, a non-Hindu former airline stewardess, and declared her to be the incarnation of the ten-armed, tiger-riding goddess Durga.
• Mangalwadi, Vishal. The World of Gurus. 1987 First Edition by Vikas Publishing House in 1977 Revised Edition
  • The cracks within the "divine family" became impossible to cement after Balyogeshwar issued directives that the photographs of his mother were to be removed from all the centres since she was no longer divine, and in their place were to be put the photographs of his wife who was "the incarnation of the goddess Durga."
• Price (1979)
  • In May 1974, Maharaj Ji married an American girl, Marolyn Johnson (now called Durga Ji), in direct defiance of his mother's wishes and the event shook the mission to its foundations.
• Melton J. Gordon Encyclopedic Handbook of Cults in America. New York/London: Garland, 1986 (revised edition), ISBN 0-8240-9036-5, pp. 141-145
  • Then in May 1974, he married his 24 year old secretary, Marolyn Johnson, and declared her to be the incarnation of the goddess Dulga usually pictured with ten arms and astride a tiger.
• Larson's Book of World Religions and Alternative Spirituality By Bob Larson - page 150
  • He pronounced her the incarnation of the ten-armed, tiger-riding goddess, Durga. Whenthe new bride refused her mother-in-law access to their Malibu estate, that was the last straw.
• Cults: A Reference Handbook by James R. Lewis - Page 122
  • Mataji ... disapproved of his lifestyle and of his marriage to his secretary, Marolyn Johnson, whom he declared to be the incarnation of the goddess Durga.
• Encyclopedic Dictionary of Cults, Sects, and World Religions, Zondervan 2006
  • The popularity did not last, not even with the guru's mother, Mata Ji. Besides mounting debts and accusations of smuggling, Maharaj Ji married an airline stewardess in 1974, pronouncing her a goddess. When Mata Ji arrived in Malibu to see her son, his new bride did not allow her to visit his estate. Enraged, Mata Ji publicly denounced her son as being a "drunken, carousing, meat eater."
• "Guru Maharaj Ji", Biography Resource Center, Thomson Gale, 2007
  • Then in 1974, Maharaj married his 24-year-old secretary, whom he described as an incarnation of the Hindu goddess Durga.
• Randi, An Encyclopedia of Claims, Frauds, and Hoaxes of the Occult and Supernatural
  • In 1974 Maharaj Ji married his secretary Marolyn Lois Johnson, who he had discovered was the reincarnation of the ten-armed, tiger riding goddess Durga.
• A Brief Guide to Beliefs: Ideas, Theologies, Mysteries, And Movements by Linda Edwards - Page 278
  • Maharaj Ji had claimed that she was the incarnation of the Hindu goddess Durga.

Pergamino found a new source which includes a clear description of Rawat's naming his wife "Durga Ji". Edwards, Linda (2001). A brief guide to beliefs: ideas, theologies, mysteries, and movements. Westminster John Knox Press. p. 279. ISBN 0-664-22259-5. Google scan We previously added that information to Divine Light Mission, but it is even more relevant here. Unless there's an objection based in policy I'll add a mention of it here too.   Will Beback  talk  05:31, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

On the very same page (278) the author says: "Elan Vital bears little or no similarity to traditional Indian concepts such as reincarnation or heaven." So the alleged statement about Durga Ji being an incarnation of a goddess, which the author puts into Rawat's mouth a few lines above, should be regarded critically. She just received a new name, without further religious implications, which seems to be a common practice in Hindu India. No objection to mentioning the traditional re-naming, if it is considered noteworthy, but abstain from theoretical theological insinuations.Rainer P. (talk) 14:58, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you're saying that the source is unreliable or not. "Incarnation" of a goddes is a very different concept from "reincarnation" of a human, so that is irrelevant. Elan Vital happened later too, so whatever that group believed in the 1980s or 1990s doesn't determine what Prem Rawat did in 1974. I'm not suggesting that we insinuate anything. I'm just suggesting reporting what the scholar writes, that Prem Rawat claimed Johnson was the incarnation of Durga.   Will Beback  talk  18:20, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Will, if all that matters to you is to stress this dazzling, but dubious „incarnation“-bit, I will have to amend the text insofar, as this whole incarnation thing is completely at variance to Rawat’s consistent message and teachings to begin with, and find sources for that, causing me unnecessary work. It is an important point, considering the rather anti-esoteric character of his teachings. But it would not really make the article any better or more concise. Your author would not be the first and only one who gave in to cheap shots of cliché at the expense of research concerning our subject, as even you might suspect sometimes after all the discussion that has gone down here. Why not just let it be? These last few weeks were so nice and quiet, it just could'nt last…--Rainer P. (talk) 19:08, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

We're here to report important aspects of the subject's life. A recent scholarly book contains a short biography of the subject, much shorter than this one, yet it still contains this detail, as do other short biographies. Is this in variance to his other teachings? I don't know, I've never seen a reliable source which says that. I'm not sure what "amendments" would be required. Could you explain?   Will Beback  talk  19:21, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I though I had just explained? Again: The highly characteristic trait of Rawat's teachings is their independence from Indian or any other tradition. This incarnation bit would link him erroneously to exactly to that background. Even your scholar acknowledged that indirectly. Maybe she was not aware of the contradiction, it is not an in-depth study after all. We have better sources to support this point (the recent Geaves-article!). So recurring to alleged Hinduistic beliefs in this article would mean a loss of substance. What is so hard to understand? A lot of people have heard Rawat say a lot of things, but never has anybody heard him say: Marolyn is an incarnation of the goddess Durga. All this spook vanished anyway after the family rift.--Rainer P. (talk) 19:51, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Why do you say "erroneously"? I don't see an argument that this book is not a reliable source, or that the other sources in which it appears are also unreliable. While Rawat may have dropped "Indian trappings" later in life, this assertion concerns 1974 which is before he had made those choices so far as I'm aware. The same assertion also appears in Melton 1986, Price, Larson, and Mangalwadi. So again, unless there's evidence that all the sources are unreliable I'm going to go ahead and add this as relevant to the subject's life. If we have another reliable source which gives a different view we can add that too.   Will Beback  talk  20:32, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Linda Edwards says Maharaj Ji had claimed that she was the incarnation of the Hindu goddess Durga. Press reports of the day also said his mother disapproved of his lifestyle, ... She fairly enough admits she is drawing on press reports. There is an important difference between: (this person) embodies the virtues or attributes of a goddess for me - like: you are my Venus - and claiming: you actually are Venus, and even that has a romantic connotation at a wedding and should not be weighed ex cathedra (BTW the virtue of the goddess Durga is a.o. to fight demons - hope she succeeds...). I trust the press to wallow in this type of "information" and blur the fine lines. Cagan, who has thoroughly researched the Rawat family affairs, mentions nothing like that. Geaves, who is really scholarly in his papers (you haven’t read his article in Journal of Contemporary Religion 2009/1, have you?) is very elaborate on Rawat’s attitude towards tradition. As the matter regards to content, we should be careful here. There is no agreement. So before you dash ahead, let’s garner some other editors’ opinion on this point. I , for one, suggest you perhaps mention the re-naming alright, and the general Hindu tradition behind it, but be encyclopedically restrictive about this tickling goddess thingy.Rainer P. (talk) 03:51, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

The press reports are concerning his mother, which isn't what we're discussing here. This isn't a journalist, but rather a scholar, just like Melton and Price. Cagan is not a reliable source. Geaves is a follower with an agenda, but we can add anything he has on the topic too. I'm not proposing anything more than what is in the sources.   Will Beback  talk  04:00, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

I've posted above a set of nine referencs for the "Durga" matter. I think that they are sufficient to show that this matter was verifiable and noteworthy.   Will Beback  talk  05:56, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

All these authors obviously feed on the same sensationalistic press report (the somewhat hysterical Time article?), and one copies from the other, except Price and Melton, who keep it reasonable and rather support my suggestion, don't they. I don't see this goddess bit to be "noteworthy and verifiable", but I see my efforts are lost on you, and we shall please wait for other editors opinion. Do you really think, Rawat discovered the ten-armed goddess (Randi, one of your "scholars")? And who says, Geaves has an agenda? He is by far the most knowledgeable and scholarly figure of them all, concerning the Rawat saga. Being an insider makes his judgement even more relevant. And Cagan is systematically underrated here, but even then there has been an agreement to accept her authority at least on family matters. Are you possibly cherry-picking? Quoting entertainments like Time and Randi while ignoring valuable sources?--Rainer P. (talk) 07:12, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

This is a standard part of the story of Prem Rawat, the story we're here to tell. We don't need to devote excessive space to it. Just something like "He renamed his bride 'Durga Ji', and reportedly said that she was an incarnation of Durga, a Hindu goddess." That's "due weight", given the sources.   Will Beback  talk  07:25, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

It depends, on whether only Time said that or Rawat said that. If only Time said it, we should omit it.--Rainer P. (talk) 07:31, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Note that the sources above represent a span of 32 years. Nine Ten sources across thirty-two years. The sources include mainstream scholars like Melton and Lewis, and mainstream news organizations like Time and Thomson Gale. It'd be an omission to leave out something so widely reported in such reliable sources, something connected to a highly significant internal rift. It's relevant and well-sourced. The formulation I've suggested is due weight.  Will Beback  talk  07:44, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Rainer P's efforts are not lost on me. There seems to be general agreement that the wife was re-named per Hindu tradition. The claim that Rawat actually said his wife was a goddess incarnate appears to have originated from one report in Time and runs contrary to Rawat's views as reported in scholarly sources. That renders the Time report and any article that copied it suspect. The edit Will suggests therefore gives undue weight to the goddess incarnate claim. --Zanthorp 08:28, 25 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zanthorp (talk • contribs)

Melton, Lewis, and Edwards are all scholarly sources and they all report the goddess incarnation. I don't see any scholarly sources that offer a conflicting account. Since nobody has made a good case against the material, or proposed anything else that summarizes the ten reliable sources listed, I'll go ahead and add the text I proposed.   Will Beback  talk  21:50, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Will be reverted on sight. Remember this article is under probation! You are pushing your opinion against two other editors', I would not call that consent, nor is it civil. What's eating you? Why are you so keen on trying to make Rawat look like an idiot? It is amazingly arrogant to simply ignore the above argumentation and claim "nobody has made a good case", when only you haven't.--Rainer P. (talk) 22:34, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Why would you revert properly sourced information? Are you saying that Melton, Lewis, and Edwards seek to make Rawat look like an idiot? Why are you so keen to keep this out?   Will Beback  talk  22:58, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

"You can't talk to a man, when he don't wanna understand..." (Carole King, ‘‘Smackwater Jack‘‘)--Rainer P. (talk) 23:16, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Is that a response? If so I don't think it was helpful. We have an assertion that is contained in even short biographies of the subject, one which is exceptionally well-sourced to highly reliable scholars and journalists. It is undisputed by other reliable sources. No alternative has been proposed. If editors here refuse to allow neutral, well-sourced material in the article then we'll have to take this to dispute resolution.   Will Beback  talk  23:33, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Price did not swallow the bait of the ten-armed tiger-riding goddess, that some fanciful Time journalist must have thought to be a good idea. And I do have my own perceptions of who looks like an idiot.-Rainer P. (talk) 23:29, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

RFC: Durga Ji

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Ten sources spanning 32 years say that the subject named his wife "Durga Ji", and most also say that he claimed she was the incarnation of a Hindu goddess, Durga. (See #Durga Ji above for excerpts and previous discussion). The sources include highly reliable journalistic sources and well-known, mainstream scholars. The assertion is included in even short biographies of the subject. No reliable sources dispute it. The assertion is already included in Divine Light Mission#Marriage and rift, but it would be even more relevant here. I have proposed adding something like, He renamed his bride 'Durga Ji', and reportedly said that she was an incarnation of Durga, a Hindu goddess. However another editor has said that he would revert any such addition "on sight". To avoid an edit war I'd like to get input on this matter before making an edit. Question: Is there any policy-based reason to exclude this from the article?   Will Beback  talk  01:27, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Comments by involved editors

I strongly oppose any inclusion based on US mainstream media, in this case Time Magazine, as US mainstream media has proved for decades to be completely controlled and unreliable. I strongly oppose any suggestion for inclusions made by Will Beback, as he has proved for long to be obsessed with mentioning whatever makes Prem Rawat ridiculous and opposing whatever makes him respectable, completely against Misplaced Pages guidelines on biographies of living persons. I strongly support that Will Beback be banned from the Prem Rawat biography, with which he is so clearly obsessed. This is in my opinion more in favour of Misplaced Pages than of Prem Rawat’s biography.--81.32.153.77 (talk) Pedrero 03:32, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

i strongly support Will with the inclusion of Durga Ji in the article. It is a shame that the supporters are so much lying about the past. It is them that should be banned from the article. Misplaced Pages is not the place to create a reputation for Rawat which he doesn't have Surdas (talk) 05:43, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I see no problem including Durga Ji either. I see a problem hawking an obviously contentious bit of information from an ephemeral mainstream magazine article, which is not obliged to the constraints of a Wiki-BLP. The disputed incarnation bit does not gain in seriousness by being repeated by some more or less scholarly authors (hardly monographic papers). It’s not like independent scientists arrive at the same conclusion in independent experiments, which would naturally strengthen the point. It rather appears to be the uncritical perpetuation of one dubious newspaper catchphrase, and with the time it seems to rather lose than gain credibility, especially as it does not at all fit into the broader context. I don’t mean to judge Time magazine, they need a certain amount of, let’s say, creative space in order to make people read what they write every day, and everybody knows that. But to include it uncommented in an encyclopaedic biography of a living person gives it a dignity it does not deserve. I guess, that’s what the BLP rules are for. Generally I have the impression the article has partly developed systematically into a desultory accumulation of titillating mass media trivia under Will Beback’s dominance. I do not assume bad intent, but likely an excessive demand of deeper understanding that is actually required for handling this article. I appreciate his diligence, but he should not be allowed to push his opinion against other editors the way we are witnessing currently, especially when there appears to be a bias toward outrageous tidbits (like ten-armed, tiger-riding goddesses) he seems to share with some of his sources. Misplaced Pages itself will serve as a source for many, so we have a special responsibility.--Rainer P. (talk) 07:55, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Comments by uninvolved editors

1. Ron Geaves in Christopher Partridge (Eds.), New Religions: A Guide: New Religious Movements, Sects and Alternative Spiritualities pp.201-202, Oxford University Press, USA (2004) ISBN 978-0195220421
2. Ron Geaves in Christopher Partridge (Eds.), New Religions: A Guide: New Religious Movements, Sects and Alternative Spiritualities pp.201-202, Oxford University Press, USA (2004) ISBN 978-0195220421
3. Downton (1979), p. 3
4. Lewis (1998a), p. 83
5. Geaves (2006)
6. Melton (1992), p. 217
7. ^ Hunt (2003)
8. Miller (1995), p. 474
9. Melton (1986), pp. 141-145
10. "Guru Maharaj Ji becomes a citizen of the US." Rocky Mountain News, Wednesday, October 19, 1977, Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
11. "The Prem Rawat Foundation website". Retrieved 2008-06-09.

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