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Revision as of 21:24, 25 June 2009

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Thanks

...for catching this error on my part. Blackworm (talk) 14:40, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Invitation

Hi, Jake. I added a section to Abd's userspace essay User:Abd/Majority POV-pushing, and I would be interested in your comments on it. I invite you to participate in discussion on the talk page. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 13:34, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : XXXIX (May 2009)

The May 2009 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 02:57, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Help adding logo to infobox

Hi Jake,

I'm new to this and would really appreciate some help understanding how to add a second image or logo to an existing infobox. The infobox is located on the http://en.wikipedia.org/Renegade_(band) page. It's using "{{Infobox musical artist" now. That infobox is perfect, but I would like to add the band's logo above the picture. I tried adding the following line: "| logo = File:Logoname.png", but it didn't even appear on the page. I tried using the same "| Img = logoname.png" code style that's being used for the image, but that didn't work either. Can you please tell me how to do that? Thanks very much --Warriorboy85 (talk) 23:50, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Replied on your talk page. Jakew (talk) 08:23, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi Again Jake,

Yes that helps a little. I realize there's no image yet, but I need to know how to add another image or logo parameter to that infobox so I can add another image. If you take a look at the infobox at http://en.wikipedia.org/Compact_disc you'll see that it has both a provision for a logo and an image. That's what I want to do. I suspect that means I have to add a logo parameter to the infobox I'm using, but I don't know how. Can you tell me how to add the parameter? Thanks for all your help. --Warriorboy85 (talk) 15:38, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi Again Jake,

You've been very helpful and I thank you very much! --Warriorboy85 (talk) 23:22, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

User: Jakew. Discussion of behaviour, influence on circumcision-related articles, and possible conflict of interest

There is an ongoing discussion about you Jake on Garycomputergeek's talkpage: User talk:Garycompugeek. Avi is doing a stern job of fighting your corner which I think is wrong. You should be the one answering the accusations. That is why I have transferred the discussion here. I have also added my opinion. Tremello22 (talk) 21:28, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for notifying me, Tremello22. However, I have actually been monitoring the discussions at Gary's (and, to a lesser extent, Blackworm's) talk page with interest. On the 4th of June I invited Gary to discuss his concerns with me here. He has not done so, for reasons that only he knows, but has instead repeated his claims in several talk pages. I am disappointed by this, to say the least, but my invitation to Gary remains open. Though I may change my mind on this, my present feeling is that I am unlikely to respond to Gary's accusations unless he makes them in an appropriate place.

(I've deleted the material that was copied from User talk:Garycompugeek, and/or that seems to be part of that discussion.) Jakew (talk) 22:00, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Hello Jake. First let me assure you that I have had every intention of coming here and talking with you. Second I don't want you to think I have something personal against you or some kind of crusade to get you banned from wikipedia. It might help if I first go over my motivations. Recently I have become aware that you seem to be heavily involved in convincing others of the merits of circumcision. I knew you were passionate from our previous discussions but had no idea of the extent. I commend you for you dedication but it paints you in a difficult position. Your bias, whether intentional or not, seems to have colored circumcision and related articles. This COI is not good for the project. I would be more comfortable if you were more open with your background and position concerning circumcision on your user page. Garycompugeek (talk) 22:35, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Hello Gary. I'm glad you've finally decided to come here and discuss the issue. As far as I can tell, there seem to be several sub-issues.

First, is a POV a COI? I note that you and Avi have discussed this point here, and I agree with Avi: there is a distinction between having a POV and having a COI. Let's be realistic: why would anyone edit the circumcision article unless one had a point of view about it? We all have points of view. If having a POV about circumcision presents a conflict of interest, then nobody with an interest in editing the article should do so. That's absurd, I think you'll agree. So the only rational conclusion seems to be that, although a person with a COI usually has a POV, having a POV does not by itself mean that one has a COI.

Second (and I'm borrowing some specific issues from your posts elsewhere), does publishing material on the subject in academic peer-reviewed journals constitute a COI? No, to quote WP:COI#Examples: "Editing in an area in which you have professional or academic expertise is not, in itself, a conflict of interest." I guess one could quibble over "academic expertise", but I think the intent of the guideline is clear: since any academic expert would almost certainly have published on the subject, having published on the subject is in itself not a COI. The guideline goes on to discuss citing one's own work, but the issue here seems to be the existence of the material.

Third (again I'm borrowing some specifics from elsewhere), is having a website (circs.org) a COI? Normally, no. However, there are (relatively rare) occasions when it can present a COI. For example, in late 2006 a message was added describing circs.org as "pro-circumcision", which I felt was inaccurate. I complained about it on the talk page (see here), but did not address the issue directly, stating "Given my personal involvement in one of the sites concerned, I will avoid editing the notice." 2.5 years later, the message still remains on the page, though I still consider it to be incorrect. I hope that gives you confidence in my handling of COI issues.

Fourth (once again, borrowing specifics from elsewhere), is the fact that I debate (or, perhaps more precisely, "have debated") circumcision on USENET and a small number of web sites evidence of a COI? No, specific messages may be evidence of a POV, but having (and expressing) a POV isn't a COI.

Fifth, as I understand it (and putting it into the most NPOV terms), one of your key objections seems to be that you disagree with my statement regarding my views on circumcision. I'm afraid I'm going to have to be blunt, you seem to think that you know better than I do about my own position re circumcision. From my point of view, this is ludicrous: I know my position, whereas you can only guess. It seems almost surreal to have a debate about it, so what do you want to do? I'm more than happy to discuss it, but such a discussion would have to be on the basis that I'm helping you to understand my position. Jakew (talk) 09:20, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your response Jake. I'll try to respond in order but some of my answer/questions may overlap.

My understanding of a conflict of interest is when someone is too close to an issue. Everyone has a POV. For simplicities sake lets just say circumcision editors could be divided into con, neutral, or pro (I understand it is much more complicated than this). Neutral editors that could care less one way or the other seem to be a rare bird for this topic. Most editors that edit circumcision can be placed in the pro or con camp based on their actions. My very first edit to talk circumcision placed me con camp for a specific purpose. I wanted the editors involved on the page to understand how and why I felt the way I did about the issue. Whether I revealed this information or not is not going to change the way I edit but I feel passionate about the subject and wanted everyone to understand my motivation. This doesn't mean I am unable to edit the article in a neutral manner. If that were the case only true neutrals would be able to edit articles and we would have a very tiny volunteer encyclopedia. So a POV is not COI, everyone has a POV. More difficult to determine is when is someone too close to an issue? It isn't just one thing that makes me think you have a COI Jake. It was the combination of the things listed above in their totality. Let's go over them for posterity.

• Involvement in scientific papers and letters to the editor regarding circumcision.
• Owner of pro circumcision website. (add some con circ material and I'll believe your site is neutral)
• Heavy involvement of many forums on the internet (this being one of them) promoting the merits of circumcision
• Last but not least your continued stance that you do not have a pro circ position (pro parental choice is simply a thinly veiled way of saying I'm pro circ because parents should be able to circumsise their children because you believe in the merits of circumcision). Michael Glass and Tip expressed their surprise at your neutrality declaration in the link you provided .

These things altogether add up to a COI coupled with your incredibly high edit counts of circumcision and related articles to create a pattern of bias over an extended period of time.

Regarding your claim of neutrality, I'm not claiming to read your mind and know it better than you, but your actions speak louder than your words. I've seen you revert blatant pro circ NPOV additions but this doesn't make your stance neutral, it just means you are trying follow NPOV policy. Garycompugeek (talk) 20:49, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Following NPOV policy is all that is required, Gary. Even WP:COI is is a red flag (although not a prohibition) because of the inherent difficulties of editing as per NPOV with a financial or familial interest. Wiki neutrality does not require its editors to act lobotomized, if the edits are in accordance with NPOV, that is sufficient. -- Avi (talk) 20:56, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Avi I was referring to Jake's declared stance of neutrality on that last paragraph and I refer to Jakes's COI as many things not just one. Garycompugeek (talk) 21:18, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

OK, I just wanted to make sure that the point was clear that NPOV relates to a user's edits, not a user's opinions. -- Avi (talk) 21:24, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't know why you have deleted it Jake. I also have something to say about you (which you deleted). I think you are being a bit disingenuous in being annoyed at Gary. I think you know what his concerns are. I for one think they are legitimate and share his view. Tremello22 (talk) 22:43, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, since Gary has now arrived, he and I can discuss his concerns. :) Jakew (talk) 09:20, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

You offered to explain your position on circumcision. I think that would be a good way to clear up any tensions that might arise from not knowing. Obviously there are different types of circumcision. The one that we are concerned with most is non-therapeutic infant circumcision. If you want to give your opinion on any other kinds of circumcision such as circumcision in Africa to prevent HIV, religious , and any other you can think of, then that would be a bonus. Tremello22 (talk) 19:35, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Certainly, Tremello. As I state on my user page, I'm neither in favour of or against neonatal circumcision. Let me put that in concrete terms. If you were expecting a son (for all I know, perhaps you are), and you asked me whether I thought you should have your son circumcised, I wouldn't say "yes", nor would I say "no". I'd probably say something like "I don't think it's appropriate for me to say. All I can advise is that you do plenty of research, and do please ask if I can help you with any questions relating to scientific facts." (This has been more or less my response on the few occasions when people have asked.) I consider this to be an important distinction between my own position (which I call "pro-parental choice") and those whom I would consider "pro-circumcision": I believe that a pro-circumcision person would say "yes". I hope that this also explains why I find it offensive to be described as an "advocate": I make a deliberate choice not to advocate.

Hopefully that has explained what I would (or in this case wouldn't) suggest to others, but some background is probably needed, and in any case you may be wondering "what does Jake actually think?" Let me briefly give you some background (for my own convenience this is lightly adapted from one of my off-wiki posts).

Generally, I imagine the range of benefits and harms as a line:

HARM ___________*___________|________.________|___________%____________BENEFIT

At one end of the line are actions that are extremely harmful. Most people would recommend against these, and there is a point (marked with an asterisk) at which the degree of harm is so great that most people would be in favour of making such actions illegal. At the other end are actions that are clearly beneficial. Most would recommend in favour of these, and there is a point (marked with a percent sign) at which the degree of benefit is so great that there would be support for making these actions compulsory. At the exact centre of the line are actions that are completely neutral, and surrounding this point is what could be described as a "fairly neutral" zone. My personal assessment is that circumcision lies between the centre point and the percent sign: put another way, I think it's somewhere between "fairly neutral" and "net benefit" (my assessment of the exact placement changes from time to time as new evidence becomes available), but I don't consider that benefit to be large enough to mandate it. In other words I agree with the position of Benatar and Benatar that it's a procedure that is a legitimate parental choice. For the same reasons, I consider religious infant circumcision to be a legitimate parental choice.

Does this help? Jakew (talk) 21:19, 25 June 2009 (UTC)