Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 14:50, 30 June 2009

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Hello, Tcaudilllg, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question and then place {{helpme}} before the question on your talk page. Again, welcome! --Oni Ookami Alfador 23:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

WT:NPA

Hello. I've replied to your post at Misplaced Pages talk:No personal attacks#Am I the only person who thinks this policy is a problem?. You seem to be mistaking my meaning, and I think you're accusing me of some kind of deception about which I have no clue. Please see that page for my apology and another attempt at clarity. I assure you that I have no intention of performing any kind of "bait and switch" or anything else intellectually dishonest. I expect you to hold me to a high standard in this matter; if I'm not making sense, please be so kind as to explain how. -GTBacchus 19:24, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmm..., well we have very different thinking styles: you put more emphasis on behavior, myself on phenomena. I'll take your word for it that you weren't trying to bait-&switch me. Tcaudilllg 01:51, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate that. I hardly know what to say to you over at WT:NPA. Our conversation there hardly has anything to do with that policy. It sounds as if you're basically opposed to WP:NOR. Is that a fair characterization of your position? -GTBacchus 04:24, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Not quite. My comment at NPA was misplaced, actually. (I meant to respond to NOR, but I wasn't paying attention to the page I was responding to.)

Now as for the NPA thing, I would tentatively place Alfador in that "extremist" category. Tentatively, I would say, because I don't know him. But I did write my response so as to test him, so as to entice, I suppose the word would be, him into revealing what his position really is and why it is that way. Obviously his concerns do not limit themselves to the personal; he is concerned with chaos on a wide scale, destruction, etc. I see him as projecting his fears onto me, when really I'm just trying to smooth the waters without ignoring the issues. I can't tell if, if it came down to him as to whether there was a NOR policy change or not, he'd "go down fighting" or just appeal to reason and try to work out a compromise. I'm trying to tell whether or not he's a PoV warrior.

There is a belief about Misplaced Pages that's pretty widespread these days as the "answer" source. I don't think that's a bad thing, but it's conflicting with the aim of trying to make Misplaced Pages fit the traditional image of an encyclopedia. I'm not convinced that with a little more tolerance of opinion, we could have our cake and eat it too regarding this matter. Tcaudilllg 21:49, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Well since for some reason you seem to have this tacit obsession with me let me make myself clear. It would appear that your only goal is to disrupt a process because it does not meet your own personal objectives. You want to fill Misplaced Pages with personal theory and unsourced synthisis and ideas. The community has spoken, and your ideas have been rejected. Please take it with good grace and drop the issue. Quite frankly I'd also appreciate it if you could refrain from using amateur psychoanalysis to label people. --Oni Ookami Alfador 22:11, 8 November 2007 (UTC)Whatever gave you the impression that I am an extremist

Need I say more? As versed as I am in psychology, you seem to know more about me than I do. How could you know I want to corrupt Misplaced Pages beyond all reason? Of course that's ridiculous.

"The community has spoken"? Really? Er wait... who is the community in that context?

My impression of your will to "abide by the community and to respect its decisions" is that you already know what the community will decide, and on that basis can argue for someone to abide by the community's will as you yourself do. If you did not believe the community would agree with you, you probably wouldn't be a part of it.

I'm not obsessed with you any moreso than I am any other person who finds it difficult to compromise. But certainly at this point in my life, and in my personal research, such people are of great interest to me.

Oh, and I use socionics and analytical psychology to "label" people, not psychoanalysis. I'm trying to put contrary functions together toward a common end, as is my nature. (Jung's concept of the transcendent function) You seem to find the prospect of such ends threatening, a trait extremists in general tend to share. Certainly they must be frightened over something or they wouldn't be extreme.

I may be mistaken, but intuition suggests I'm not. Tcaudilllg 23:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

You seem to have created a situation where, in your own mind, you can only prove yourself right. "I claim that you are an extremist, and if you disagree, that proves what an extremist you are." Are you afraid of the idea of commenting on the content and not on the contributor? The sense in which "the community has spoken" is that WP:NOR enjoys the support of broad consensus. This idea has been tested hundreds and hundreds of times, and each time, Misplaced Pages rejects original research.

Maybe we could "have our cake and eat it too," and maybe Misplaced Pages could be an "answer" source, ignoring the idea that "answers" have to be verifiable. However, this idea has never really caught on here, and many of Misplaced Pages's supporters cite our policies such as Misplaced Pages:Verifiability and Misplaced Pages:No original research as what sets us apart from the rest of the Internet, and what makes Misplaced Pages valuable.

As for "trying to tell whether someone is a POV warrior," are you flatly rejecting the idea that it doesn't matter? It is entirely possible to talk about the contents of the article without labeling ones interlocutors in any way. Each time we talk about each other instead of about the content, we disrupt the discussion which should remain focused on content. With your background in psychology, surely you realize that ad hominem remarks simply begin an unending cycle of accusations, counter-accusations, bad blood, and no good work getting done. This is why we have our Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks policy. -GTBacchus 02:05, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Case in point below. I appealed to Alfador's reason, and yet he refused to engage me in discussion. I was actually expecting he would, because I had made some polite overtures. Yet he does not; he is dismissive. Tcaudilllg 23:06, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I just do not wish to carry on multiple discussions in the same section. Excuse me if I want some order to my affairs. Anyway, I did acknowledge them on the relevant talk page. If you wish to discuss something else with me, feel free to take it to the talk page of the affected article/policy, or to my talk page, but I do not wish to, and will not, jumble multiple discussions together because you insist on being confrontational and challenging every facet of my actions.--Oni Ookami Alfador 08:43, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

A humble suggestion

I don't know why this didn't come up earlier, and its partially my fault as it should have occured to me to mention this. Perhaps some of the original research ideas and synthisis would have an easily accessible outlet in the form of one or more of the Wikia Wikis. A good portion of these seem to embrace original ideas and interpretation, so long as they are well argued, and they may actually suit your needs better as they can generally be much more specific than Misplaced Pages, delving far into the realms of detailed information that Misplaced Pages would label as cruft and not include. Perhaps some of the ideas you advocate would be embraced there. However, I should caution that just as you had problems with it here, attempting to jump in and reform policies on these other wikis that you disagree will most likely be met with just as much hostility. In fact, many of these communities do not have the safeguards place to protect users from rather quick banning by sysops.--Oni Ookami Alfador 20:37, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Would you explain to me what about this is original research?

" Wilhelm's stature and mystique has inspired many allusions between himself and historical themes. Partially owing to the strong parallels illustrated by the series' creators between the world of Xenosaga and actual history, many fans believe Wilhelm to be a symbol for real life religious and mythological concepts. A leading comparison is to that of the ] of the ] religion, who is said to be the creator and "caretaker" of the physical domain. Demiurge is portrayed as antagonistic to the will of the Supreme Creator, just like Wilhelm is antagonistic to U-DO's will. He also tried to entrap elements of the divine in the physical world, much like Wilhelm tries to seal away the "eyes of God", Abel and Abel's Ark, in order to have his way with the world. Also, Demiurge employed agents called Archons, powerful beings that acted on Demiurge's will. Demiurge's Archons can be comparable to Wilhelm's ]."

Those are simplistic conclusions that anyone who was familiar with both Gnosticism and the character could reach. (especially in light of the overt Gnostic references in the first game) It helps to be familiar with the material, to know what in the context of it is "obvious" and what isn't. Tcaudilllg 00:11, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I didn't come here to argue that. If you wish to continue fruitlessly arguing that point, you can do so wherever you've been ranting about it so far. Obviously you have no interest in my suggestion and just wish to continue with your current rantings here, and, seeing as how I've grown rather bored with this, have fun.--Oni Ookami Alfador 01:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Nice job on the socionics article. Care to justify yourself here, ignorant one? http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?p=296087#296087 Tcaudilllg (talk) 23:48, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Ignorant? You're treading on thin ice with WP:NPA by continuing to treat other editors as you do Sir. Fortunately I'm rather good natured and have better things to do and waste my time with petty name calling from a frustrated editor. The addition was unsourced. You of all people should know the current policy on that, and whether you agree with it or not, it is to be respected unless consensus, and thus the policy, changes. Provide a link to a credible source with the addition to the article and it might very well stay, so long as the community believes it to be credible.--Oni Ookami Alfador 05:25, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Might I also point out (quite ironically and admittedly to my own amusement), that whatever point you are trying to prove has just been directly opposed by everyone who posted in that forum. They seem to be even more irritated with your antics than the editors here, but that may just be a side effect of WP:NPA, I can't be sure. In any case, good point you proved there.--Oni Ookami Alfador 08:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps your "friend" said it best in the first reply.... "random socionics concepts do not belong in wikipedia pages like "creativity" because they have nothing to do with creativity as a whole. they instead belong in the socionics article. "--Oni Ookami Alfador 08:49, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

You're a college student, right? If you don't mind me asking, just how old are you, exactly? I'm only asking because it's been scientifically proven (you can read this in lifespan psychology journals and texts) that people undergo a change in reasoning at about their 22nd~23rd year. (from "defense of principles" to "cognitive relativism")

As for the forum comments, I've batted with those guys for years. There are actually at least six people on the forum in ardent support of my theories, which an investigation of my participation on the same would make clear to you. Tcaudilllg (talk) 08:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Once again, I should be pointing out that I am not going to do your work for you. Telling me to go find your proof isn't going to cut it. If you feel you have something to prove (and obviously you do), the onus is on you to find that information and bring it to me. I'm not going to go digging through your muck trails of people who are upset with you to find the that one shining beacon of light who just happens to disagree with you. So far, what I'm getting out of this discussion is that you felt the need to make a post remotely attacking me, just to get a bunch of your peers, who you expected to come to your aid, to announce to you (and incidentally anyone who views this discussion) that you have been carrying on there much the same way as here and they are tired of it. As for my age, it is of little consequence. I could go by your rationale and just tell you to find it for yourself (some creative digging on your part should provide my true identity), but I don't think you'll bother anyway. Oh, by the way, I'd love to see some of these psychology journals, I have plenty of database subscriptions available to me, so care to give me an article name? I'm not going to waste my time looking up information that I neither care about, nor believe exists with credibility as a result of your consistent track record of refusing to source your statements.--Oni Ookami Alfador 09:09, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Screw this, go look it up yourself. As you say, you don't care about it anyhow. Tcaudilllg (talk) 10:04, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

"Go look it up yourself," a telltale sign of no source to begin with. If you genuinely believe that cuts it I can understand now why you have so much difficulty with Misplaced Pages. --Oni Ookami Alfador 15:31, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Get off my talk. We have nothing to say to each other. Tcaudilllg (talk) 20:26, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

NOR Request for arbitration

Because of your participation in discussions relating to the "PSTS" model in the No original research article, I am notifying you that a request for arbitration has been opened here. I invite you to provide a statement encouraging the Arbcom to review this matter, so that we can settle it once and for all. COGDEN 00:08, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Spam in Mysaifu JVM

Hello, this is a message from an automated bot. A tag has been placed on Mysaifu JVM, by another Misplaced Pages user, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. The tag claims that it should be speedily deleted because Mysaifu JVM is blatant advertising for a company, product, group, service or person that would require a substantial rewrite in order to become an encyclopedia article.

To contest the tagging and request that administrators wait before possibly deleting Mysaifu JVM, please affix the template {{hangon}} to the page, and put a note on its talk page. If the article has already been deleted, see the advice and instructions at WP:WMD. Feel free to contact the bot operator if you have any questions about this or any problems with this bot, bearing in mind that this bot is only informing you of the nomination for speedy deletion; it does not perform any nominations or deletions itself. To see the user who deleted the page, click here CSDWarnBot (talk) 12:30, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Regarding socionics article "Esoteric links to socionics"

I see your point. I went ahead and put the category back with a link to the tattwas article. That seems to be a more appropriate place for it.

Notify about Arbitration

I notify you about Arbitration for your love to popularize exotic theories in wrong place (Socionics). User8080 (talk) 14:31, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Excellent. I'll point to your communication with Rick and Lytov. Tcaudilllg (talk) 12:55, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Completely indifferent to your attempts to "stand up against me"

I am completely indifferent to the fact you think you have to "stand up to me." I view my self as the anti-christ that keeps socionics real and the "sheep from settling". If no one else is going to take a stand a tell the truth about the origin of socionics, and the fact that I bothered to be the one person who takes a stand against "the socionic sheep who believe what they are told and never think for themselves" and that makes me the bad guy who "tells people how it is with socionics", I will be the bad guy who "tells it like it is."

All I know is that it is impossible for anyone to do any research into the matter and not eventually find the real truth. And so long as the "wolf is on the prowl" some people are going to be looking into the matter. Now, you can be the "dog that protects the sheep" all you want and attempt to shield some of this extremity, but I know you are in it for the truth as well. I am pretty sure you just want moderation in the matter. --Rmcnew (talk) 21:25, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Notability of socionics

Can you produce something that demonstrates the notability of socionics as a recognized psychological study? Mangoe (talk) 18:04, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Depends on what language you want it in. Most all of the material is in Russian.

The clearest proof of its notability is its leading journal, published by the Socionics Institute in Kiev, Ukraine. There have been hundreds of articles published in it since 1995. However, an understanding of Russian is required to read most of the associated works. Google Trans can help, IF you can get hold of the articles in an electronic form.

According to the journal website, the Ukrainian government relies on socionics in the selection of its personnel. That's difficult to corroborate, of course.

I think this article may answer most of your questions. You should be able to locate it in physical form without too much trouble.

I can get you in touch with an expert, but he'll expect you to communicate in Russian as a sign of respect. Tcaudilllg (talk) 20:06, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to have to say that a "Socionics Institute" is not going to cut it as a reliable source for notability. Can you come up with a third party? Mangoe (talk) 20:51, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

What are you asking for, exactly? Is it not enough that some 20 people with PhD.s endorse it? In the field of depth psychology, there are no supreme authorities, only people who offer observations and have qualifications. If it helps, you can observe on the institute's journal main page that the reviewers are practicing psychologists.

Stop and think for a moment how many revolutionary advances have come out of Eastern Europe. Tetris was the last that we know of. People over there have limited means, strict governments, and much less freedom of the press.

I'll say this: if you can't tell that your relations with other people follow consistent patterns, then so be it. But don't to say to people who can acknowledge those patterns that they cannot speak up for what they see. Socionics is a practicioner's art: if you aren't trained to observe your own mental patterns, they go right by you because you are actively living them and they -ARE- you. It's been said before but to understand socionics you must study its foundations and see it in action.

But if you want to nominate the article for deletion, go right ahead. Tcaudilllg (talk) 21:17, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I can offer another institution: http://socionics.kiev.ua/ . I believe there is a third one, also. Tcaudilllg (talk) 21:22, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I should also make the point that these people are probably just as qualified, if not more so, to speak about public matters of psychology than the editors of such pop sci magazines as Psychology Today. Tcaudilllg (talk) 21:27, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

The editors of Psychology Today, however, are excellent testimony to the spread of ideas in the psychological community. Thus far you have given me nothing but testimony from those promoting the legitimacy of socionics; the most cursory reading of our policies will show this to be insufficient. How did you personally come to find out about it, anyway? Mangoe (talk) 21:48, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Sergei Ganin's site, after doing a search for "personality types" on the internet. ...I don't know what else to say... but would believe that there is a conspiracy against socionics? Think about it: doesn't the whole notion of relationship patterns between people, that you can't change no matter how hard you try... doesn't that seem kinda "otherworldly"? Look at Psychology Today, the one thing all of those articles they publish have in common, is the notion that if you have a deficiency in something due to a trait, you should try to eliminate it through pure effort. According to socionics, you're gonna fail without outside help saying point blank what you need to do in every such situation: you need by the minute instructions, or you're going to screw it up. A lot of people don't want to hear that, because it's not positive psychology. They would rather live in denial and believe they could change that which couldn't be changed. Some people come to accept this through a willingness to believe that people have dispositions, traits, and that they can learn these by observing people. Others insist that without cognitive evidence you can't know what another person's traits are. Those two poles also vote in opposition to each other, for the record. In the U.S., the conservatives rule psychology and have since Freud. Skinner affirmed it further, and although Alport made the point people had traits, he and Eysenk insisted that you had to have empirical scientific data to prove their existence, which of course is elusive without a working theory of consciousness itself. The Left is OK with figuring out personal quirks, but the Right demands that anything held as true be demonstrated in the context of everything else. It all boils down to politics.

Here's an interesting bit: one of the more recent advances in socionics sheds light on the problem of sociopathy. V. Gulenko argued that there are 32 types, not just 16, before abruptly ceasing any further mention of them. I've done my own investigations and I am positive that those other 16 are sociopathic variants of the originals: people innately disposed to impulsive, selfish thinking at the expense of altruism and social respect. Socionics itself isn't any more notable, any less than MBTI; but the whole notion of a cognitive elementology is very powerful. If you knew that a person would become a dictator before they were even born given permissive social conditions, would you still allow them to be born? Socionics is a new theory of reality and human identity, the current state of which only touches the surface.

Here's a question I'd like answered: why, in the absence of proof that the mind isn't completely plastic, do we assume that it is? Who put that idea in our head at the expense of the alternative? There is no reason to believe the mind is completely changeable, it's just an idea that Freud posited and which we believe, but why? Tcaudilllg (talk) 23:39, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

brief response

frankly i think you're insane and see no reason to try to talk to you not directly related to the issue at hand. your comment on my talk page was mostly indecipherable. two points:

• material from descriptions on wikisocion and wswiki has been incorporated for the last year and a half. both wikis are GPL. rick has no issue with it (and if he did i would fight him). obviously neither isha nor i have any issue with it. wikipedia has no issue with it because the content is all freely redistributable.
• socionics is notable, according to wikipedia's criteria. nonetheless, it's not very notable, and both you and mcnew have done an excellent job adding bullshit sources that makes it appear far less notable. the page needs a major overhaul, and in total frankness it needs you to leave it the hell alone.

Niffweed17, Destroyer of Chickens (talk) 05:04, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

You're hopeless. I don't care what you say. Unlike you, I will one day be a professional socionist. So there.

I'm going to replace the existing descriptions with sourced perspectives from all the different key authors. You should help me with it. Tcaudilllg (talk) 05:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Niffweed is one of those people who have bought into the western lie that socionics is "something like Jung and MBTI" and has done nothing but intensely persecute those who tell the truth that socionics has an intense esoteric background. When I literally owned the the16types.info forum for 4 straight years, he made a regular habit of following users around during that time who spoke anything contrary to "his opinion on the matter" and harass them. He even goes so far as to commit slanderous and libelous accusations against people such as "calling them insane" or labeling them with "psychiatric disorders" even as such is libelous false. This tactic seems to be his main response to those who disagree with him and otherwise shows that "his opinion on the matter" lacks a high degree of respectability. --Rmcnew (talk) 20:15, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Apparent threats

On the fringe notice board you wrote " Delete this page and you'll see Misplaced Pages go -SCHIZM-. I dare you to salt it. I dare you. You attack progress then progress will attack back.". This appears to be a threat to either attack other editors or vandalise Misplaced Pages. I hope I am wrong and would welcome your clarification. Thank you. Dougweller (talk) 14:35, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

All I have to do is call attention to the discord within your own ranks. When deleting articles, one needs to take the process seriously. As it is, the persons who facilitated the debate (by administrative means) failed even to check the Russian Misplaced Pages article for socionics. (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fru.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F%D0%A1%D0%BE%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0). Their decisions are representative of incompetence at least, bias at worst. I would expect they would at least receive a warning, because this debate borders on censorship.

In general, one should not exalt process over the self-evident. As for damage to Misplaced Pages, I'm not stupid. I know how resilient this thing is and that if it falls it'll be not from without, but from within. As it is you are trespassing against a legitimate ethic of caring: Misplaced Pages is a de facto exposure vehicle for information that can help people in their personal lives. As a factor of its philosophy and relationship theory, socionics is a premier self-help tool as thousands have already discovered. Tcaudilllg (talk) 14:49, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Your recent edits

Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Misplaced Pages pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. If you can't type the tilde character, you should click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! --SineBot (talk) 16:05, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Mass posting

Please stop sending that message to so many users. It is not relevant. See Misplaced Pages:Canvassing for the policy on this. Angela. 21:56, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I apologize for posting to you. It's just time to settle what Misplaced Pages is, is all. We're settling the inclusionist/deletionist debate with a schizm. The reason is that I'm looking down the road and you (Misplaced Pages) doesn't seem that important to progress. The socionics debacle is a case in point. If Misplaced Pages takes a more inclusionist stance, then no problem. Or else, they will leave. In any case your encyclopedia wins: you no longer have people pressing to make Misplaced Pages into "the sum of ALL human knowledge", and those who want to create such will go on and make something else. Who knows, maybe they will fork Misplaced Pages to do it. There will be less conflict on Misplaced Pages in any case. (there will still be inclusionist arguments, but not "far out" arguments because those people will have no reason not to go to the new service). And I posted only to ADMINISTRATORS who expressed Left-leaning sentiments (atheists and inclusionists, though in my experience they tend to coincide). If you notice, there is a bid to ascertain consensus over the socionics article. Then, let's hear out EVERYONE. (I admit I don't want to hear out everyone, only to see the indignation of people who more or less work to be of similar opinion to each other, and on a mass scale. I want inclusionism AWAKENED).

Your deletion policy leaves something to be desired. It just doesn't make any sense. We're trying to grow a subculture here by making people aware of the Great Hole in Western Knowledge which has been unknown since the fall of the Iron Curtain, and here our articles to that end are being deleted. Tcaudilllg (talk) 22:57, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

In other words, you are trying to use Misplaced Pages for promotion. That's not what encyclopedias are for. Dougweller (talk) 07:23, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

That is precisely my concern in this. To a degree I'm not concerned about whether socionics is novel but accepted psychology, or pseudoscience, or a woo-woo mixture of psychology and the paranormal. At the moment it seems hard for the uninvolved to assess which of these it is, because with the exception of Rmcnew's problematic analysis, there seems to be a complete lack of any external assessment of the stuff. That external consideration is precisely what is needed to make this stuff notable. If it gains enough of a following for others to remark upon it, then I would certainly agree that it's notable. But your argument, T., is that Misplaced Pages should be making it notable, and that isn't right. Mangoe (talk) 14:24, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Reversing an AfD deletion

There is no point in posting to anyone who is not an Admin asking them to reverse a deletion decision if that is what happens, as they can't do it. There is no point in posting to an Admin to ask them, because they won't, it would be WP:Wheelwarring and we already have a review process if anyone thinks a discussion was closed incorrectly at WP:DRV (which is not a second AfD, please note. You've already been asked to stop canvassing for the AfD. Dougweller (talk) 11:31, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

You appear to have difficulty accepting predetermined outcomes, or even the practical necessity of such. You need to work on that. Tcaudilllg (talk) 12:38, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

My only difficulty is figuring out what you mean by 'predetermined outcomes' and 'the practical necessity of such'. I have no idea if I can accept them or their practical necessity unless you explain it. Your comments aren't obviously a response to what I wrote above, but presumably you think they are. Can you please elucidate? Dougweller (talk) 13:47, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

You keep insisting that we cannot know what the consensus will be in advance of the debate's closure. Why is that? It's plain that socionics is more notable than many things on the English Misplaced Pages.

You make this big deal about me trying to undermine the encyclopedia. Well if the consensus is negative, then something is wrong at Misplaced Pages and wheelwarring may be necessary to restore it. I don't think it'll be necessary though, it's only an option in the worst case scenario. It's like if Sarah Palin became president of the United States: all hell would break lose, but you just feel a little more anxious when there is a real official prospect for society to go the wrong path, because we see that sometimes it does. Tcaudilllg (talk) 14:50, 30 June 2009 (UTC)