Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:50, 21 July 2009

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Anti-Americanism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29Auto-archiving period: 10 days

	Anti-Americanism was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result August 30, 2006 Peer review Reviewed September 23, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed February 20, 2008 Articles for deletion Kept
Current status: Former good article nominee

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. International relations Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of International relations on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.International relationsWikipedia:WikiProject International relationsTemplate:WikiProject International relationsInternational relations Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Discrimination This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Discrimination on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Politics Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Anti-Americanism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29Auto-archiving period: 10 days

Special note: To avoid an external link farm, the numerous articles posted on the subject have been moved to Talk:Anti-Americanism/External link

Bad Quotation?

Is this quote right - I don't have the source, but I don't think the grammar is right. "the belief that what underlies all U.S. actions is a desire to take over or remake the world"

What's this article really about?

The article spends the whole first half explaining why there can be no agreement on what "anti-Americanism" means, that sometimes it is Soviet-style propaganda, sometimes it is prejudice, sometimes a mixture. Then it goes on to say all sorts of things about anti-americanism, without specifying which phenomenon it means. That doesn't make sense. Noloop (talk) 02:22, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the structure of the Islamophobia article is a more neutral than this one. It documents things called Islamophobic by notable sources, rather than claiming they are, in fact, cases of phobia. That's more neutral. This article consists of Misplaced Pages asserting that all sorts of things are anti-American. What do people think of changing the structure of this article to make it more neutral? Noloop (talk) 21:25, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

It should at least mention that it is often a form of racism. Fuzbaby (talk) 17:43, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

It shouldn't mention that, because that is a personal opinion. (Also, it's a very weird personal opinion...racism against which race?) Noloop (talk) 22:16, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

The American race? I know that seems weird because Americans are made up of all different races, but all countries are to an extent. If someone said "I hate the Swiss" you'd probably call them racist. Why is "I hate the Americans" different? Adam Carolla (talk) 11:20, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

The more I dig into this article, the more I feel it is a platform for propaganda. The structure of the Islamophobia article is more appropriate to topics like this. Are there any objections to listing important cases that are often called anti-American by notable sources. Right now it's just a lot of accusations against people and groups. Noloop (talk) 22:42, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Canadian anti-americanism

I have a hard time believing that the Canadian viewpoint is not mentioned here. Canada is the birthplace of anti-americanism (Empire Loyalists) and must still be the most consistent in these beliefs. While Canadians do not burn flags, they are Canadians after all, smoldering resentment is stronger in Canada than any other place I have ever travelled to. The national sport of Canada is not hockey if one measures by minutes of water cooler talk, it is anti-americanism. Any American who moves to Canada is considered an American forever... something that is not true of any other nationality. Why? Live there for awhile and you'd see that the metaphor of "sleeping with the elephant" is not too far from the truth. To quote former Mexican president de la Madrid, 'so far from God, so close to the united States", although of course he was referring to Mexico...

All of that is your POV. In fact, the majority of this article is just the POV of Misplaced Pages editors. The whole thing is a travesty of neutrality. Noloop (talk) 22:15, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually, there is data to back up this POV. Canada is probably the most instinctual anti-American country on this planet. It is also the only country that makes laws with the aim of denying Americans employment, particularly in higher education. There needs to be a whole section on Canada, and we need to be honest here, and I hope that Canadians are honest about this for a change. We are not going to get anywhere through denying that Canada has a problem.

I do not think that you quite grasp how Misplaced Pages works. If you think that "Canada is probably the most instinctual anti-American country on this planet", it is up to you to provide sources to back up such a claim. My feelings are that you will have a hard time finding any reliable sources for that. --Saddhiyama (talk) 19:06, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. I started this topic and I am glad it sparks some discussion. I agree that there needs to be references for anything that gets into the main article, but unfortunately there probably has never been research to confirm or deny statements like "Canada is probably the most instinctual anti-American country on this planet" because it is too controversial. I agree with this statement but so what. I also agree that there needs to be a whole section on Canada (and the historical evolution of anti-americanism in Canada), I agree that we need to be completely honest about it (and I am Canadian). I completely disagree that it is important to see it as a problem. It is simply a national phenomenon with many causes, some historical and some emotional, some valid and some invalid. -KG —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.77.135.182 (talk) 20:53, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Another problem is the lack of a definition of anti-americanism, in the article as well as in this talk page section. So far it sounds more like POV (and OR at best), which should probably be taken to another place (as per WP:NOTFORUM). --Saddhiyama (talk) 22:43, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Canada is definitely NOT the most instinctual anti-American country on this planet! There are many countries that would like to lay a claim to the title, with Iran in front by a whisker over Afghanistan, Iraq, North Korea, Saudi Arabia and Vietnam, closely followed by Cuba, Russia, Syria, Spain, Germany, France and dozens of other countries! PomsWin (talk) 07:31, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Where Americans are concerned, Canadians are the nastiest people on the planet. Canadians are obsessed with the idea of hurting America and Americans. They feel this can best be accomplished by stopping all exports of oil, gas, water, and electricity to the US. Now, the Canadians wouldn't do this without a good reason; such as an American Border Guard telling a Canadian to get out of his vehicle without saying please. This is a true example. Check out the CBC Website. Canadians love to respond to news articles. That's where you'll find this stuff. In connection with the export stuff above, Canadians are sent into paroxysms of ecstasy visualizing tens of millions of "Americans shivering in their cold dark homes." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.37.229.144 (talk) 12:08, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Forgot to say, Canadians feel that cutting off those exports will bring America to it's knees in a few days, with a valuable lesson learned. No other outcome is allowed to intrude itself into their thinking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.37.229.144 (talk) 12:24, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Middle East

WebHamsrter keeps adding this material asserting that it just says what the cites say, and isn't POV.

The term "Great Satan", as well as the chant "Death to America" have been in continual use in Iran since at least the Iranian revolution in 1979. The Iranian capital Tehran has many examples of anti-American murals and posters sponsored by the state; the former U.S. Embassy in the city has been decorated with a number of such murals.

As I've pointed out more than once, none of the cites actually say what the article says. The first two don't say "continual use...since...1979". The latter two don't say Tehran is decorated with a number of anti-american murals. The paragraph misrepresentes other authors on the Web, and argues for POV regarding Iran and anti-Americanism. Please stop reinserting it. Noloop (talk) 15:46, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

The references in this paragraph simply don't support the paragraph. (One of the references for "in use since 1979" is dated 1995 and wouldn't be a valid source for what's happpened in the last 14 years anyway.) There is no excuse for reverting without discussion. Noloop (talk) 14:29, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

The first para which you keep deleting "The Great Satan!" is supported by 2 references which demonstrate that this is indeed an anti-American slur. But for some strange reason you delete it. The second para is supported by a reference that does indeed state that the first use was in 1979. It doesn't matter if the article was created in 1995 or 2008, the fact that it was first used in 1979 is still the case and if it was used again in 1995 then it is indeed correct to used the "used since" wording. The fact remains though that as you are trying to remove a referenced paragraph that has been in the article for quite a while then the onus is on you to garner consensus to remove it. Until you do I suggest you either leave it alone or rewrite it. Do not delete it. --WebHamster 14:51, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

1. Nothing can "demonstrate" that something is anti-American, as this article itself points out. As you, in fact pointed out, "anti-American" is a POV term.

2. The 1st ref is an opinion piece of one writer. It's valid as ref for nothing except that some writer had that opinion. What that ref actually says is that "Ayatollah Khomeini famously dubbed it, as the "Great Satan"." That is the only reference to that term in the article. It says nothing about being the term being "in use." (The phrase "in use" is so vague it's meaningless anyway.) It says nothing about "Death to America."

4.The 2nd ref is also an analysis, not factual reporting. It is written, not by a neutral source, but by the "Director of Threat Analysis in the Air Force Office of Special Investigations" It is published by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, a US military organization. Gee, I was expecting the US military to say Iran is mellow, weren't you? Valid references are neutral, and they are factual. Nonetheless, the article doesn't support the reference. It's only claim, which is an opinion, is that (in 1995, when it was written) the "United States continues to represent the Great Satan." That's an author interpretation. So, 14 years ago one person in the US military said the Iranian government thought of the US that way. Says nothing about being "in use" since any time. There is no mention of "Death to America" at all.

5. The last part of the paragraph claims there are many anti-American murals in Tehran. The 1st ref for that is one picture with no article and no claims by any source.

6.The 2nd ref makes no mention of anti-Americanism at all. It's an article written by a photographer describing her exhibition. It's not a basis for reporting as fact that Tehran is has many anti-American murals. Noloop (talk) 23:50, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Why don't you QUOTE the part of the refs you think support the text in question, as a starting point for working toward consensus? Noloop (talk) 16:14, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

You say: "6. The 2nd ref makes no mention of anti-Americanism at all. It's an article written by a photographer describing her exhibition." The source says: "Though less numerous than those depicting the revolution and the Iran-Iraq war, the most thematically persistent murals have featured anti–United States and anti-Israeli images". 76.117.1.254 (talk) 23:57, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

3O

Hi folks. Third opinion on offer here. If I understand the disagreement properly, it revolves around the following;

i) Whether "the Great Satan" is a current term used in Iran to refer to America (?)/USA.

ii) Whether there is evidence to indicate the frequency of use of "Death to America" chants. I think everyone is accepting the start date of 1979.

iii) Whether there is evidence for Tehran having many anti-American murals or not

I would suggest that if any of the three disputed points are accurate, noteworthy, and non fringe views (which is my, perhaps ill-informed, understanding), then it should be easy to come up with multiple RS's to that effect. I suspect you people are far better placed to chase these up than I am, but I offer these as possible useful starting points for i). You might consider these worth looking into for ii) and as far as iii) is concerned these might be useful, but I'll leave it to you to be the judge.

I think much of the dispute can be settled by wording that closely matches RS's rather than interpolating or synthesising what they might be saying. Some direct quotes might help too, and at the very least in the reference. I hope that's of some help. Cheers, Blippy (talk) 14:15, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd adjust the description of the dispute a bit.

i)Webhamster's rudeness as seen on his Talk page, in which he basically tells me to fuck off (not in so many words, but that's the gist).

ii)Whether it is appropriate for an encyclopedia to call anything anti-American

ii)Whether the sources are balanced, i..e. neutral weight.

I haven't followed all your links yet. The phrases "current term used" and "in use" are pretty vague. Is "The Roman Empire" a term currently "in use" in Europe? Sure. What about "Axis of Evil" Sure, in some context, sometimes. Does that prove America is racist against Persians?? The term "many" as in "many anti-American murals" is also POV. What's "many?" And what's anti-American? To a reader, it means hostile, hateful murals. To an Iranian it might mean a mural that truly describes the US. Can Misplaced Pages editors just decide their POV is right and the Iranians are wrong?Noloop (talk) 15:52, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

If I were going to tell you to fuck off you would be in no doubt and "gist" wouldn't come up. The problem here lies both in your lack of understanding as to what consensus is (in Misplaced Pages) and the other is your own personal interpretation of the sources. You also seem to have a misunderstanding of the way POV is treated here. The article itself can be about a POV so long as the editors writing it don't show any. As "anti-Americanism" is a POV the sources themselves will show signs of POV. The sources we are talking about are only being used to demonstrate that the comments in the prose exist in the real world, which of course they do. As for stupid comments such as "what's many" well I'm not sure how to explain it to someone who has to ask the question! It's more than a few, duh! The fact you are asking such inane questions demonstrates that you don't have a clue as to what this article is actually about, so how the hell do you expect to edit it? And what the hell are you on about with regard to the Iranian anti-American murals? Do you think we are talking about a nice rural scene painted of central Colorado? Sheesh! This is like ice skating up hill. --WebHamster 16:18, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree with Webhamster here. I originally read your point-by-point rebuttal and I thought you were right, but then looking at the sources and what the text says, the source do cover pretty well what is said in the text. Maybe more scholarly sources would be better, and a quick search in google books easily finds several books about the topic, confirming that the statement in the text is factual and relatively uncontroversial. 76.117.1.254 (talk) 20:20, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I didn't see the "anti-US" reference, but it really doesn't matter. Calling something anti-US, or anti-American is an opinion and shouldn't be reported as fact in an encyclopedia. If it is a notable opinion, the fact of that opinion might be notable, but a photographer just describing their own photographs isn't notable. Noloop (talk) 20:51, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Do you have any sources for your claim that these mural are not anti-US? 76.117.1.254 (talk) 21:33, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I didn't claim they are not anti-US. I claimed that such discussion are about opinions rather than facts, and that some photographer discussing her pictures isn't a notable opinion. Noloop (talk) 00:34, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

The next two paragraphs are equally bad. Neither of the polls say they are measures of anti-Americanism. The implication that having an "unfavorable" opinion is the same as being anti-American is POV. The Pew poll says nothing about "probing stereotypes". Has anybody actually gone through this whole article and checked the references? The majority of this article promotes propaganda.Noloop (talk) 20:59, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Sigh. Seriously, now I can understand Webhamster. Read the opening paragraph. There is a definition of Anti-Americanism, that is, "opposition or hostility to the people, government or policies of the United States". Does the Pew poll measure "opposition or hostility to the people, government or policies of the United States". Yes, it does, because as the paragraph clearly says, it measures attitutes toward the US and the paragraph closely follows what the polls actually say. 76.117.1.254 (talk) 21:33, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

1.The Pew Poll does nothing of the sort. The paragraph reflects little of what the source says. The source says nothing about stereotypes, but that's the gist of the paragraph. Even if it did, the source would be interpreting not measuring, and an encylopedia doesn't just repeat the opinions of sources.

2. As for the opening paragraphs, why don't you read...

"the nature and applicability of the term is often disputed."

"critics sometimes argue the label is a propaganda term that is used to dismiss any censure of the United States as irrational"

"Discussions on anti-Americanism have in most cases lacked a precise definition of what the sentiment entails, which has led to the term being used broadly and in an impressionistic manner, resulting in an incoherent nature in the many expressions described as anti-American."

"American academic Noam Chomsky... asserts that the use of the term within the U.S. has parallels with methods employed by totalitarian states or military dictatorships; he compares the term to "anti-Sovietism", a label used by the Kremlin to suppress dissident or critical thought, for instance"

"...criticisms of the United States are labeled "anti-American" by supporters of U.S. policies in an ideological bid to discredit their opponents."

Given that background, it is hard to see how it's appropriate for editors to be deciding what Misplaced Pages shall consider anti-American, and what it shall not. It isn't a factual matter. Noloop (talk) 00:29, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

ok, it seems there is a more fundamental issue here; should WP have an article on anti-Americanism. I would argue yes. It is a notable topic that a reader seeking to understand should be able to come to WP and be able to find further info. So, if there is to be an article, then it must conform to WP policies. The guts of this is not aiming for truth, but aiming for balanced coverage. There also is no room for OR. So I think it may be useful to consider the various sources for what is being written and ensure that they are stuck to closely. It sounds like much of that is happening. BUT what else seems to be needed is a section that addresses the various concerns associated with even having a phrase such as "anti-American" - and this section will also have to stick closely to RS. What do you think? Cheers Blippy (talk) 06:49, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I think the opening paragraphs, which I excerpt above, are pretty good. They are balanced, and give an overview of the issue. In the opening paragraphs, Misplaced Pages isn't calling people anti-American. It doesn't imply the Middle East is chock full of anti-Americanism. It mentions criticism of the term, and defenses of it. It's the latter sections that veer into rampant POV--saying what's anti-American and what isn't. They don't just report what notable sources say. The other problem is the sourcing gets really bad in the later pargraphs, as I've argued above. I was wrong on a few points about the sources, but the larger point is intact. These problems are related. A poll finds that Middle Easterners have an "unfavorable" opinion of the US, and some editor puts that in this article as a factual case of Middle Eastern anti-Americanism. Noloop (talk) 16:08, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree. However regarding the rest of the article it fits the concluding sentence in the intro very well: "Discussions on anti-Americanism have in most cases lacked a precise definition of what the sentiment entails, which has led to the term being used broadly and in an impressionistic manner, resulting in an incoherent nature in the many expressions described as anti-American".

I am a bit surprised about the definition though, "widespread opposition or hostility to the people, government or policies of the United States." With this kind of inclusiveness I would be hard pressed to think of any American that would not qualify as anti-American, because everyone I know has critized one or more of the policies of the United States at some point. However that is the definition, and there is no question that the subject is notable, that is simply not what is being discussed here. The problem seems to be that the article has evolved into a list of examples where everyone has included examples of what they think is anti-americanism or examples where someone has used the term anti-americanism. The article needs structure and clarity.

I would suggest that the article be divided into three main sections, each with a header that corresponds to the definition in the intro, that is anti-americanism as being either cases of opposition or hostility towards "people", "government" and "policies" respectively. Each section could then include examples of anti-americanism being used in each of these cases, perhaps followed by any criticism that may fit into each of these categories. Just a rough idea to get this somewhere. --Saddhiyama (talk) 17:03, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Agree that the dictionary definition is useless. Like you said, everybody is anti-American by that definition. It's good that the article specifies that this is something dictionaries tend to say, instead of the article saying so itself.

We can't give examples of anti-Americanism, because that would just be giving our opinion. We need to state facts, which can include the fact of some notable opinions. I think a section briefly listing/summarizing notable claims of anti-Americanism would be OK. We have to make sure we are not giving our opinion of a poll or action that seems anti-American to us (no matter how obvious to us). The point is that we shouldn't tell readers what to consider anti-American. We give them relevant info, and let them decide what to consider anti-American. The second half of this article goes way beyond that. Noloop (talk) 22:34, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

"We have to make sure we are not giving our opinion of a poll or action that seems anti-American" - As if the section in question gives an opinion about how to interpret the results of the opinion poll. You must be kidding. 76.117.1.254 (talk) 23:27, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

At the very least, putting the polls in an article on anti-Americanism suggests that we interpret them as evidence of anti-Americanism. The polls don't say that, though. The paragraph on the Pew research says it is about stereotypes Middle Easterners have, even though the poll does not say that. It is not even about the Middle East or the U.S.; it is about Muslims and Westerners, including European Muslims and Indonesia. The whole article is full of distorted refs like that. Noloop (talk) 16:08, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Edit Warring

I've made the reasons for removing clear, but in an effort to stop the edit warring, I will summarize again. Basically, here are the problems:

1. The sources say nothing about anti-Americanism, so it is only the POV of W. editors to include them here.
2. The statements are not truly sourced, i.e. don't support the text.
3. the sources aren't notable.

The term "Great Satan", as well as the chant "Death to America" have been in use in Iran since at least the Iranian revolution in 1979.

says nothing about anti-Americanism. It is POV to interpret the source as evidence of anti-Americanism in Iran. (In the same context as discussing "Great Satan," it discusses Bush's terms ""axis of evil" and "outpost of tyranny".) says nothing about anti-Americanism. It is 14 years old, and not a source of what has happened "since...1979". It is also a publication of the US military, and not neutral.

The Iranian capital Tehran has many examples of anti-American murals and posters sponsored by the state; the former U.S. Embassy in the city has been decorated with a number of such murals.

is just an image. It's not a source. is a college student discussing her photos. It's not a basis for reporting, as fact, that there are "many examples of anti-American murals" It's not a basis for reporting a notable person has that opinion, because she's isn't notable.

What remains is: The chant "Death to America" has been in use in Iran since at least the Iranian revolution in 1979. Noloop (talk) 16:31, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

You can keep wittering on with your own interpretations as much as you like but if they aren't gaining you any consensus for the removal of the sourced sections then you may as well not bother as without consensus the sourced sections stay. Oh and by the way, the ref for The Great Satan is there to demonstrate that it's a genuine term. Also references don't have to apply for the whole of the timeline, the fact they state it started in '79 is enough. Now as you are obviously someone who won't take advice from people who know the rules better than you I don't think I'll bother with any more explanations as you're obviously not listening. I'll just keep reverting any changes you make without consensus. Hopefully your memory will allow you to understand why. --WebHamster 17:03, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

• You are the only person objecting, so "no consensus" is a non-reason for reverting.
• Your opinion is irrelevant unless you can give it in a civil manner, which you failed to do above. You're improving tho.
• "Demonstrating is a genuine term" doesn't demonstrate relevance. The text doesn't say "'Great Satan'" is a genuine term," fortunately, since that would be meaningless.
• If you say something has been in use since 1979, the implication is that it is in use now. A 14-year old source can't do that.
• You addressed none of the problems with the text about murals, even though that is the main part of my edit. So, you haven't even attempted to explain the main part of your reversion.Noloop (talk) 20:41, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

What don't you understand about the requirement is for YOU to gain consensus to remove long-standing sourced material. You've had several editors tell you this yet you still won't listen. This is the last time I am going to spend on explaining things to you. You obviously have cognitive problems. Like I said I'm not going to spend any more time explaining the way things work to someone like you. You've already wasted both mine and several other editor's valuable time with your self-opinionated twaddle both here and in various other parts of the project. --WebHamster 22:57, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Woh! It seems things have revved up a bit here. OK, it seems to me that Noloop is making an attempt to stick closely to the sources. I haven't viewed them myself, but I think N's points seem reasonable at face value. In any case it seems the only disputed bits are dating the use of 'Great Satan' reliably, and an RS stating there are numerous examples of anti-American murals in Tehran. Surely this can't be too hard? Again, I haven't looked at the sources yet, but if they are compromised in the way Noloop suggests, it should be a simple matter to replace them with better ones - and it couldn't hurt to have better ones anyway. One of the strengths, but frustrating parts of WP is that it is constantly evolving, so I don't think it's valid to dismiss N out of hand WH. I'm happy to have a look for sources myself but may not get a chance for a little while, and I'm sure you folk are more expert than I in this regard. Cheers, Blippy (talk) 14:24, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not dismissing him out of hand. Unlike yourself I've actually read the sources, I've even tried to reword the article so the prose and the sources match, but noloop's obvious POV is getting in the way of neutrality. May I also suggest that perhaps you should have actually read the sources before replying in this manner? --WebHamster 14:31, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

You may indeed - in fact I think you just did! Here's my first suggestion. Instead of running "Great Satan" and "Death to America" together, stick closely to - so leave Noloop's sentence as is about the chant, but add "Many Iranians admire the US but it is still known as the "Great Satan". Just abandon as a source, is all we need in this instance.

Surely there's a better source than an ad for a photo exhibition? Even there the relevant bit is "Though less numerous than those depicting the revolution and the Iran-Iraq war, the most thematically persistent murals have featured anti–United States and anti-Israeli images", which supports Noloops assertion that it doesn't strictly say there are many anti-American murals - just that there are less than those about the two wars. As for the photo that came up there was of a sign saying "On that day when United States of America will praise us we should mourn" which could mean anything - but even if we breach WP:OR and interpret it negatively, it certainly isn't demonstrating that there are many murals, and at best shows that the "number of such murals" is not zero. Hardly compelling. Surely this can't be all that hard to get some better sources on? Cheers, Blippy (talk) 15:24, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

1. Webhamster, thanks for informing me of what I don't understand. I'll return the favor. You are the only person objecting. So, getting consensus means talking to you, and that's all.
2. The most basic problem is that editors have given their own examples of anti-Americanism. But, anti-Americanism is a POV term. None of the sources on "Great Satan" say anything about anti-Americanism. To Iranians, maybe it is a reaction to American imperialism (as they see it), not prejudice. Comparable to "Axis of Evil" in the West. It's not for Misplaced Pages to take a position on that. Sources for examples of anti-Americanism need to use that term themselves, and they need to be notable. Noloop (talk) 15:35, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Just because I'm the only one arguing for it does not mean that you have consensus for removing it. So far you have none. Remember it's up to you to prove to additional editors that your arguments support the removal. So far it's me against, you for and Blippy on the fence. That does not make consensus in your favour. I don't need consensus in my favour as I'm not trying to change the status quo, I'm just trying to maintain it. As has been told you several times, the onus is on you to demonstrate the need for removal and then for multiple other editors to agree with you. That's what consensus means. I really despair sometimes.

Hmmm, let me see, is "The Great Satan" a compliment? I don't think so, it's a slur, therefore the name itself is a reflection of anti-American feeling. That's why it was used in the first place. Duh! --WebHamster 15:47, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

To Blippy: Actually I think that 67 is better than 66 but it does no harm to keep both in. I do agree that 70 is next to useless so I'll remove it. In any case I've provided an additional reference that refers to "murals being dotted all around Tehran" or words to that effect (I'm working from memory here). --WebHamster 15:53, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

The editorial says: "The anti-American murals that dot the streets of Tehran have been part of a domestic and regional struggle to define the Iranian Revolution of 1978-1979, and not a literal declaration of foreign policy. " So, how do you go from an editorial expressing an opinion about "dotting" the streets, to a factual statement in an encyclopedia that there are "many" such murals? Noloop (talk) 16:21, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Because I can read English, you obviously can't. --WebHamster 16:23, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I've also supplied an additional reference that shows the "Death to America" chant was relevant up to at least 2007 --WebHamster 16:00, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

You didn't address a single thing I said. The ref you added for the murals is an opinion piece by someone who doesn't seem notable. It cannot be stated as fact. And, unless the person is notable, it shouldn't be listed as a notbale opinion. Why is the person notable? You have no consensus for your changes. Noloop (talk) 16:09, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

What the fuck are you on about? The publisher is the one that has to be reliable, the ref does not have to be written by someone who is "notable". You are confusing WP:N with WP:RS. As it happens I don't have to address anything you say. I just have to supply references that meet WP:RS not ones that meet your approval. Please get over yourself. --WebHamster 16:19, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

1. It's an opinion. All statements about anti-Americanism are opinions. Do we cite the opinion of Joe Blow sitting at the bar? Presumably not. If we cite an opinion, the person with the opinion is supposed to be important in some way, i.e. notable.
2. The WP:RS you keep citing is for factual claims. If you cite an opinion, you need to attribute it. If we did that in this article, as it stands, it would be full statements like "According to such-and-such mural is anti-American..." Noloop (talk) 00:27, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

{outdent}OK, perhaps it will be more productive if we go through Noloop's claims one by one here rather than getting into futile edit warring on the page itself. 1. It is implicit, without any need to interpolate, that the line from about 'Great Satan' is reasonable as I presented it earlier. True it doesn't say anti-American explicitly, but it is set as a direct contrast to 'many Iranians admire the US', so it is clearly couching 'Great Satan' as a pejorative term. I believe it should be easy to get more along these lines, but I believe this is enough as is. If Noloop can provide countering RS's to refute this, please do so, otherwise I think the sentence I offered is balanced as well as sticking close to the source. 2. Let's dump the US Army source until a better one can be found that is unequivocally NPOV - they may be a very RS for other matters, but there is a shadow of doubt in this instance, so let's run with independent sources instead, of which there is currently one - more would be welcome. 3. I am still unhappy with the ad for a photo exhibition as a source, but he FPIP source looks good to me, however, if you can provide reasons to doubt it Noloop, please do so - note that you will have to come up with something better than claiming it is an opinion piece because FPIP are the publishers and have deemed it worth publishing, and they claim to be "more than 600 scholars, advocates, and activists seeking to make the United States a more responsible global partner". I think we can then use "The anti-American murals that dot the streets of Tehran have been part of a domestic and regional struggle to define the Iranian Revolution of 1978-1979" to put together a sentence along the lines of "Numerous anti-American murals dot the streets of Tehran". I believe that should resolve the issues under consideration. Thoughts? Cheers, Blippy (talk) 08:49, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

You cannot say that source a says X so it must also mean that source a means Y see WP:SYNTH or WP:OR The sentence is not balanced as it says that a source makes a claim that is not implicit within the text of that source, it is up to someone inserting a claim to prove that claim, not up to the person contesting it to disprove it. By the way is FPIP noted for its fact checking? What FPIP claims about themsleves may not be true. Who are FPIP are they a respected organisation? It seems to be somekind of offshoot of the Institute for Policy Studies. Moreover whilst it may claim that it “more than 600 scholars, advocates, and activists” how many of these are indeed scholars? If the majority are advocates (whatever that may actually mean) and activist then this sight might in fact breach “publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional in nature”. Slatersteven (talk) 13:47, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

1. Blippy, you seem to saying that it is a fact that any pejorative directed at any aspect of the US is an example of anti-Americanism. If it's a fact, then we can report as fact that the term "Great Stan" is anti-American. I can't accept that. Statements of anti-Americanism are statements of opinion, not fact. That's doubly true because of the politicized nature of the term, as this article itself points out:

• "the nature and applicability of the term is often disputed."
• "critics sometimes argue the label is a propaganda term that is used to dismiss any censure of the United States as irrational"
• "Discussions on anti-Americanism have in most cases lacked a precise definition of what the sentiment entails, which has led to the term being used broadly and in an impressionistic manner, resulting in an incoherent nature in the many expressions described as anti-American."
• "American academic Noam Chomsky... asserts that the use of the term within the U.S. has parallels with methods employed by totalitarian states or military dictatorships; he compares the term to "anti-Sovietism", a label used by the Kremlin to suppress dissident or critical thought, for instance"
• "...criticisms of the United States are labeled "anti-American" by supporters of U.S. policies in an ideological bid to discredit their opponents."

Given these aspects of the term, it's unacceptable for an encyclopedia to be telling readers what's anti-American.

2. It's not true all pejoratives directed at the US indicate prejudice or hatred of the US. The term "Axis of evil" has been in use as a reference to Iran for years. Does it indicate US cultural hate toward Iran? An encyclopedia simply can't 1) interpret that, and ii) state its interpretation as fact.

3. It seems simple. We find important people expressing opinions about anti-Americanism, and report the fact they have that opinion. We don't find sources for something we think is "obvious" anti-Americanism, and then report that something as a ffact of anti-Americanism.

4. Also, publisher reliability seems irrelevant for editorials, since publishers don't usually fact-check editorials. The author is understood to be representing only himself. Reliable publishers are full of op-ed pieces by Republicans saying there's no such thing as global warming for example. Those aren't reliable sources for anything. Noloop (talk) 15:29, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

They are classed as reliable sources on WP regardless of your own personal opinion, which seems to be the problem here. You are working from your own opinions, not WP rules. Incidentally FPIF is notable enough for its own article so there's a pretty good chance it can be classed as a RS, and so far it's 2:1 for that reference. Your move. And who came up with the strawman synth argument? No-one is synthesising anything. --WebHamster 20:28, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I didn't say the sources are unreliable. You haven't addressed a single thing I've said. Dump the strawman, feigned incomprehension, please. Noloop (talk) 15:39, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

From Slatersteven's wikilink:

• "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Editors should not make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to reach conclusion C. This would be a synthesis of published material that advances a new position, and that constitutes original research." Noloop (talk) 15:40, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Refining the bit in question

OK, I'm losing the plot here. I'm going to put together a version of what we've got so we can work on it specifically. As far as I can assess, based on the RS's we have, the following seems pretty reasonable;

The chant "Death to America" has been in use in Iran since at least the Iranian revolution in 1979 and numerous murals characterised as anti-American dot the streets of Tehran. In Iran the US is still known as the 'Great Satan', however, many Iranians admire the US, so it is unclear how prevalent sentiments which might be described as anti-American are.

I'm conscious that the very last bit could be OR and would feel much more comfortable if we had a source to that effect. It's going to get pretty clunky if we need to preface anti-American with 'has been characterised/described as' - but I believe to do so addresses Noloops primary, and valid, concern that *we* are saying X is anti-American rather than saying that RS says X is anti-American. As far as FPIF is concerned I think it is unproductive to argue here about whether they are WP:RS - let's burrow away by ourselves on that point to find evidence either way and bring back RS's that demonstrate their credibility or otherwise. I think we give them the benefit of the doubt at this stage, as I'd much rather focus on the couple of sentences above, which we can easily adjust to reflect FPIP status once it's established. Cheers, Blippy (talk) 02:53, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I've just done some hunting and it seems Chomsky is regularly quoted or interviewed by FPIF - so I don't think we need to worry that they are pushing an Iranian anti-American (what does that mean again?!?) line. In fact there is something else in this reference that may be worth adding to the passage in question;

The chant "Death to America" has been in use in Iran since at least the Iranian revolution in 1979 and numerous murals characterised as anti-American dot the streets of Tehran. In Iran the US is still known as the 'Great Satan', a phrase coined by Ayatollah Khomeini in the 1970's, however, many Iranians admire the US, so it is unclear how prevalent sentiments which might be described as anti-American are. It has been suggested that under Ayatollah Khomeini anti-Americanism was little more than a way to distinguish between domestic supporters and detractors.

What do you think? Cheers, Blippy (talk) 07:55, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

That works for me, so it's a given that noloop will object. --WebHamster 08:49, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

;-) It's been pretty exasperating for you guys, but hopefully Noloop will be satisfied with this too. Cheers, Blippy (talk) 08:57, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

It's no different from what's already there, and addresses none of my objections. No passage should be telling readers what they should think of as an anti-American act. Period. It's a political point-of-view. How did we get from a source that says the murals "dot" the city to a statement that the murals are "numerous"? I didn't say FPIF was unreliable or biased; that's a strawman argument of WebHamster's. I said the source was an opinion piece, so not a source for statements of fact. It doesn't matter how reliable the publisher is. This is like finding an opinion piece in the New York Times saying there is no global warming, and then stating as fact there is no global warming because the NYT is a reliable source. Opinion pieces are sources for nothing except the fact that that author expressed that opinion. That is, in fact, what our policy on references states. Noloop (talk) 15:49, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

9/11

Most of the 11/9 stuff seems to be about the attacks and how many nations condemed it, not about Anti-amricanisam, I think this needs to be re-writen.Slatersteven (talk) 19:21, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. Most of the article needs to be re-written. Noloop (talk) 00:28, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

1. http://www.antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=2455
2. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1851791.ece
3. http://www.nypost.com/seven/06082008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/sympathy_for_the_great_satan_114459.htm
4. www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUezKsBCRb
5. http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0212/p01s02-wome.html
6. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2007/09/23/2007-09-23_irans_ahmadinejad_issues_new_threats_aga.html
7. www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/04/12/2541133.htm
8. http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news.php?newsid=OTgzMzc3MzI1
9. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/03/15/TR1R154HL1.DTL&feed=rss.travel

• Former good article nominees
• Old requests for peer review
• All unassessed articles
• WikiProject templates with unknown parameters
• B-Class International relations articles
• Mid-importance International relations articles
• WikiProject International relations articles
• B-Class Discrimination articles
• Unknown-importance Discrimination articles
• WikiProject Discrimination articles
• B-Class politics articles
• Mid-importance politics articles
• WikiProject Politics articles