Misplaced Pages

(P.S. check your mailbox tomorrow - I really wanna talk to you and make up for the lost time, Ghosty :)

(COUGH!:) ahhhh you just MADE my weekend babe! With "nightmares" like this I dont wanna wake up ;> Thank you so much my darling, I will ALWAYS be YOUR Ghost, Extra Warm Inviso *HUGS*--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 05:53, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm back too! Yay! Spawn Man 03:36, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Yay! Was starting to wonder and worry, Welcome back!--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 09:07, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Sealand infobox

Hi. I'm reverting your change to the above. Please review my reasons for doing so here. Basically I think that compromising the standard infobox format is the thin edge of the wedge. Micronations should be no different from schools, universities or companies when it comes to infoboxes - they all provide tabulated information on a unique entity. By caving in to the demands of 1 or 2 anti-micronation POV-warriors by changing the standard format just for micronations we are effectively supporting an agenda which is just plain wrong. --Gene_poole 02:17, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi Gene! (Hygiene?!:) I understand, agree fully and am on your side in this. I was only trying to work out a compromise solution so as to end the edit war and the wasteful debate surrounding it. In the true Wiki spirit, though, someone (ironically a sock puppet of a hard banned user) edited my edits, so now PRINCIPALITY OF SEALAND is once again at the top where, in our opinion, it belongs. So far no one has bitched or complained. So let's just leave it as is for a while, until we are sure they have gone away to find something else to bitch about. My strategy is to offer reasonable compromises, and if they refuse they will been seen as the unreasonable POV warriors they are. Then we will have the advantage in the defence of Sealand from these invaders! Cheers M8, --R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 06:20, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Front page

I've no idea what's happening with Richard's listing over at WP:TFA. Pages that were listed after it are now being put on the front page next week. Some people are now voting (I didn't even think it was a vote!). I think that it's all supposed to be organised by Raul654, but other people appear to be handling some stuff. Looks fairly shambolic from my perspective. Leithp (talk) 16:51, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

So tell me how does the light shine in the halls of Sham-bol-ic? :> Sorry, I can never resist the opportunity for a bad joke. No wonder it's a bloody shambles...it's a democracy! So I went ahead and voted. Voted for some other artys I strongly supported there too, such as the Texas Ranger Division, Mark Felt and the US Navy Marine Mammal Program. Damn fine reading all. Amazing how much talent we have here. So we will just have to ROCK THE VOTE...only wish we'd know sooner though. Doh! "To those who say 'What did the president know and when did he know it?', let me say this; If I knew then what I know now."--Richard M. Nixon--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 02:44, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Apparently voting ist verboten, by decree of Raul654. Bugger knows what's going on at that page. Leithp (talk) 15:30, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Apparently, a pissing contest developed over when to feature the Roy Orbison arty, and it caught Raul in a foul humor so the experiment with democracy is ended for now. Bit much of him to delete all the comments, though. So the wait continues. "And you better hope and pray there's intelligent life up in space, 'cause it's bugger all down here on Earth!"--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 18:32, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I think it had more to do with the voting over whether to feature Christmas day or Omnipotence paradox on 25th December. It got a bit out of hand. Personally I think it's quite.... odd, that Raul654 is in sole charge of whether to promote articles to featured status and whether to put them on the front page. I think it's a hangover from when Misplaced Pages was a lot smaller. Leithp (talk) 20:09, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps it is a bit of a hangover. But after my experience with RfA reform, I'm not about to cry out for a return to democracy. I don't agree with everything Raul does, but overall I think he does a good job, which is all any of us can really do. I say we wait till the 8th, then start, politely, bugging him about Sir Richard.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 23:04, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Well now I'm confused. What on earth was that about? Leithp (talk) 22:42, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

No worries. Just someone I had a run in with earlier who obviously can't find anything better to do than butt-in where it really is none of their concern.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 23:04, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Bad news, I'm afraid. Leithp (talk) 23:13, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

So let the gentle bugging begin I suppose. But not now, Raul seems to have a high level of Wiki Stress at the moment. On a personal note, I hate December...it has never really been one of my "Power months" anyways.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 23:31, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Hope you guys don't mind me barging in, but just wanted to say that i'm sorry to hear O'Connor didn't get his 8 December main page appearance. I have to say that December is a great month - if you happen to be Bill Gates, that is ;-) Take care, guys. SoLando (Talk) 23:58, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Not at all dude! Unlike some, you are welcome here. Thanks for the condolances;>--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 00:06, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Joke edits, funny photos

Incidentally, I noticed that your Monopoly joke lasted an impressive (or worrying) six days. Quite interesting as a breaching experiment (if that's the right term). Obviously, I only noticed this after it had been reverted, because jokes like that should be corrected on sight. Ahem.... Leithp (talk) 12:02, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Only 6 days?! Damn...I was hoping it would beat the record of 7, set by my Ostrich experiment. Since it is the more clever, and hence to me funnier, of the two. Now if it had been up 9 days I'd prolly have taken it down myself. You have a real talent for finding cool and unusual pics, wanna help me with the next one? Remember- naughty schoolboys get the girls;>--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 17:03, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I'd love to say that I'd scoured Misplaced Pages, searching for only the choicest weird pictures, but I've got most of them from here. So, were someone to theoretically want to try another experiment, they might want to use one of them. Crushing by elephant is a classic, I think. Leithp (talk) 18:12, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh SUPER SWEET! A whole new GOLDMINE! I could spend DAYS just purusing that page! Thanks bro! The Misplaced Pages continues to be an unending source of amusement if not enlightenment for me. Yes, Crushed by elephant tis a classic indeed. I've actually SEEN it you know...several times...in movies ;>--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 21:24, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Barnstar

Hey, the talk page is fixed! I was going to award this earlier, but my eyes nearly popped out with the strain of looking at odd, tiny blue text!! Take care. SoLando (Talk) 06:12, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

MUCHO GRAZZIE BRO! It will look great in my Wiki-Trophy room;> I wonder what that green stuff is, though...Wasabi? Pickle parts?...hmmm--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 10:16, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

No probs, dude. By the way, I was going to say the green stuff is probably mould - after all, so few are deserving of such a barnstar - but that may take the shine off it ;-) I'll go for, um, um.......something that isn't....mould :-p SoLando (Talk) 10:37, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

LOL..oh I see now- Mould for a Mouldie Oldie;> I shall try to continue to be worthy of it! (And I needed the laugh too...thx :)--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 06:30, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Cheers

Cheers for the ironmongery, I shall wear it with pride. Although, given my recent shirking over expanding the Horrocks article I'm not sure I deserve it right now. But, since I saw him being interviewed on TV a couple of nights ago on The World at War, I'll take that and the MC as a sign to get my arse in gear and back to work.

Incidentally, sorry if my sig caused problems yesterday. There was apparently a software "upgrade" that removed a section allowing for the correction of bad HTML code (the only kind I know). This has caused some havoc across talk pages. Leithp 09:50, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Not your fault M8. Anyone, who had any kind of HTML in their sigs was affected. Seems they turned off HTML correction in order to free up bottlenecks on the increasingly clogged pipeline. Or so this droog says.

Damn, I need to buy The World At War for my DvD library. BEST WWII DOCU...EVAH! You have the MC for now, the VC will come later once you finish and we get Bernie FA status ;>--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 10:16, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Molobo

This case and the RfA on Molobo that will inevitably follow sooner or later needs opinions of admins not involved with either side of the dispute (i.e. neither pro-Polish, like me, or pro-German, like Wilgaf), so I am happy that you have become interested in it. I the last event I acted on the basis of incorrect information and already apologised to Wiglaf, but I am pretty convinced he abused his powers during the German_4th_Panzer_Division dispute. All things considered, Molobo has broken the 3RR rule several times, and I don't support many of his actions, but he has also done many good edits and helped to reduce the anti-Polish POV of some articles. Unfortunately, he often pushes them to pro-Polish, thus igniting the reverts. I honestly don't know what to do - I asked Molobo several times to be more careful, but to little avail. The fact is that he is often is fighting with similar nationality pov-pushers from Germany or Russia, and so if we ban him, shouldn't we ban them as well? I am afraid my Polish nationality doesn't help me to form a truly neutral opinion here (but by the same token you should carefuly approach any opinions of editors involved with edit wars with Molobo, or even editors sympathising with their friends...). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:14, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm glad we can agree Molobo is the real problem and provacateur here. As for what should be done, you make (as usual:) some good points. Bans should be decided on a case by case basis, depending on the circumstances of each one. In this case, the only fair and reasonable course of action I can think to recommend, would be to LOCK the 4th Panzer Division article, after reverting it to its last, stable revision. We can then at least try and work out a concensus on what needs to be done in his case. Beyond that, I'm unsure too. Banning him would be easily justified, but like most fanatics and trolls he would probably wear it, like a barnstar, with pride instead of shame. Yet we cannot allow him to continue to disrupt Misplaced Pages to make his point. The only other course of action I can think of would be to extend the LOCK strategy to other articles where and when he provokes an edit war. Then if he complains on the talkpages, ignore him (deny the troll his food:). Once he moves on, the article can be safely unlocked. It worked for the Erwin Rommel article, it might work for the 4th Panzer and others too. Of course we all have biases, my friend...so long as we recognize and admit to them, they can be controlled for. Reasonable people can discuss and work through them. The Molobos of the world do not acknowledge their biases nor can they be reasoned with. Thank you for your reply, I'll be glad to help in any way I can. --R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 08:32, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Through I don't approve all of Molobo's actions, I don't think he is a 'troll'. His POV is too nationalistic, and he tends to turn to revert wars or pointless talk arguments too often instead of just editing the articles - but nonetheless I think there is a clear gap between him and the 'real' troll. For example, I feel that Molobo's actions on the 4th Division page were completly justified. Through I admit this may well be 'an exception to prove the rule' - I am not prepared to take clear sides at the moment. I don't know about most of other cases he is involved in - I simply don't have interest (and will) to tackle most of those nationalistic disputes (giant waste of time, if you ask me) - however when I do get involved in such cases, I very often find out that both involved parties are equally guilty of allowing the situation to deterorate. I have recommended an RfA involving him as a prudent action to Wilgaf some time ago (much better then simply blocking at will), but when it comes to pass, I think it will show that Molobo is not the only guilty party. In the end, the world is not black and white as some hope it will be. On related note, I wonder if you could comment on this: am I constructing a 'network of admins pushing a nationalist POV, with the power of unblocking each other and Molobo' :) You seem to have earned respect of Wilgaf - and mine - so perhaps you could mediate between us before this gets any worse. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 15:56, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, my friend, so much of our world is in shades of gray. But there does come a point where gray starts to resemble black more than white. Molobo has reached this point in the eyes of A LOT of people. Let's deal with him first, as you recommended to Wiglaf earlier (that was a missed opportunity, but hey water under the bridge:), then deal with the other national PoV pushers. Just because they did it too, does'nt put Molobo in the right. As I said, let's consider each case by its own merits and circumstances separately. If they are equally guilty (and from what you say and the example of Zivinbudas, you provide, it seems they are) then by all means they should share the same punishment. Even if it comes down to, as you say, banning the whole bloody lot of them. If they are as guilty as they seem, you should have no problem getting Wiglaf and the other admins on your side just as you did with Zivin. But we really need to deal with this mess so we can get on with our Wiki work and lives. I could'nt agree with you more about nationalistic edit wars. Wastes of time...and they turn up in the strangest places, I even got recently pulled into one involving SEALAND. As I mentioned there, nationalism, and perhaps even the nation-state itself, are becoming dangerous anachronisms. But I digress (again:).

You and Wiglaf need to put this behind you. You have both done the right thing, admitted your wrongs and apologized for them, like the true, honourable gentlemen you both are. Rex is making much too much of a fuss about this. I'll tell him so. As for the "Network" issue. No, I don't think you are. Unfortunately, I can see where it could be seen this way. The "Black Book" especially (though Molobo doesnt help either). It is probably best to delete the "Black book" entirely, especially since it has become such a big black cloud hanging over Halibutt's election. I hate to see such a worthy candidate, whom I wholeheartedly SUPPORT BTW, denied because of it. Just is'nt worth it. Besides, this whole situation reminds me of a joke an old friend of mine from Poznan, Marik, once told me, you've probably heard it but it goes-"Poland is being attacked by the Germans and the Russians...quick! Who should we fight first!?...The Germans, business before pleasure:>Sapere aude!--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 10:26, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Convo with Molobo

Why do you say such things-I was right about the 4th German Panzer division. If you believe information I provide is wrong, why don't you address it on talk page ? If you are concerned with any information then I will be glad to provide you source or information that will confirm it. --Molobo 13:15, 17 November 2005 (UTC) Then if he complains on the talkpages, ignore him (deny the troll his food:) Why do you insult me in such way ? After all I did enter correct information on several articles.What is the reason for your reaction ? --Molobo 15:04, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Why Molobo, I'm honored you grace my humble talkpage. Iam curious about you. I would like to know how you come upon your "facts", and I don't mean by Google either. I think that none of us are born with a hard-set group of beliefs...we come by them through our life experiences. So what is it in your life, which makes you think the way you do? Did your family suffer loss due to the war and occupation? Most every family in Poland did. I'm being quite sincere here. Please help me understand where you are coming from, besides just Poland. I would like to think, somehow, you could be "rehabilitated" and your energy and enthusiasm made into asset to the English Wikipipedia instead of a liability. But if your beliefs and values are hard-wired in your head, I'd only be wasting our time. Sadly this seems to be the case. Several of my friends have tried in vain to reach out to you before. But in every case you shunned their efforts. I really would enjoy having a civil, productive discussion with you, Molobo. But all you've shown me so far is a combative, arguementative, uncompromising side. And unless you show me there is more to you, I cannot help but side with those who want you banned. By the way, I do not hate you and I certainly do not hate the beautiful land or gallant, brillant people of Poland. So please consider this, my attempt to "Reach out" to you, Molobo. Accept it or reject it as you see fit. Thanks for stopping by. Regards,--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 10:26, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I would like to know how you come upon your "facts", and I don't mean by Google either. Mostly history books, documentaries, as well as research by Instytut_Pamieci_Narodowej. If you want to know about particular entry I will be glad to provide you with specific source, as to recent entries about atrocities made by Wehrmacht troops in Poland, they came from IPN research, Szymon Datners book and work by German institute in Poland.If you wish so, then I see no problem with providing you with pages, names, links or even translation of various texts-however I already included many of them in discussion on 4th German Panzer Division. Several of my friends have tried in vain to reach out to you before. But in every case you shunned their efforts. Can I ask you for providing links to these efforts ? I will gladly enter any dialog that may ease this situation. So what is it in your life, which makes you think the way you do? Did your family suffer loss due to the war and occupation? Most every family in Poland did. I'm being quite sincere here. Please help me understand where you are coming from, besides just Poland. I feel always uncomfortable about personal questions, and believe that the articles and edits should be discussed not private life, as it is not the subject of debate. I assure you that I didn't engage in providing personal experience as proof-I think its a very bad concept(and my family didn't suffer in WW2 anyway according to my knowledge If you want to know, besides I am of German heritage).However I don't know what you mean by my personal beliefs ? I would like you to point at some edit that you believe was just my belief, and I shall gladly provide the source I was using for you to settle that issue. I would also like to know what edits of mine are disturbing for you. --Molobo 00:16, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your response, Molobo. ITN seems like a credible source. But I can't vouch for the rest of your sources. I understand about documentaries...I'm a bit of a history Docu junkie. However, historical documentaries are not historical documents. Besides that, they usually have a political and/or economic agenda. There are very few (The World At War for instance) which offer as much depth of research and coverage as a good book or even article. This seems especially true of some of the newer Docus, which are mainly about "Info-Tainment" and so are designed to appeal to the interests and biases of their target audiences. Thus, I'm loathe to cite documentaries as sources.

Now in the case of the 4th Panzer, which is such a small article to cause such a large controversy, I think its main focus should be on the division's COMBAT HISTORY. As it stands, about 1/3 of it now talks about war crimes commited in Poland in 1939. If it were a larger article, with more info about its combat actions, then this would not be such a big deal. This is not the case, unfortunately. Furthermore, if you are going to talk about its war attrocities in detail, then you should mention ALL of them, including those commited against Russians, French or British. Of course, this would make the problem even worse. Warfare is slaughter...NO UNIT involved is free from some act which can be percieved as a warcrime. This is why I think unless a unit is particularlly infamous, such as Kampfgruppe Peiper or 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend or SS Division Totenkopf, then the focus of an article about a combat unit needs to be mainly about its combat roles. Otherwise it is a slippery slope to try and mention every potential attrocity a unit commited. Now, if you or anyone wants to start a separate, related article focusing solely on the 4th Panzer's or Hitlerjugend's war crimes in Poland, then I see no problems with it. I might even contribute if I can. But otherwise, they just bog down an article with details and it looses its focus. Sometimes all it takes to throw it off is just a few strategically placed words of a sentence. Such as "Throughout its existence, the division was responsible for a number of war crimes." with which you started the section. Even that can cause problems. Not the best way to start a section, especially since you don't discuss its entire history of war crimes, only Poland 1939. Moreover, most of the crimes, you attribute to it are minor. 13 prisioners being executed...while terrible is nothing compared to the Katilyn Forrest or even the Malmédy Massacre. So why give it such large mention? Its all about RELEVENCE and PERSPECTIVE.

"Several of my friends have tried in vain to reach out to you before. But in every case you shunned their efforts.

Can I ask you for providing links to these efforts ? I will gladly enter any dialog that may ease this situation."

WHY SURE! Leithp for one for 1, Patton for 2, Shauri for 3 (Who seems to have gone OUT of her sweet way to try and be kind and reasonable with you!) And does so again here for 4. Wiglaf for 5 and Ansbachdragoner for 6, who makes many of the same points I do above only in a much more concise manner. ALL from your own talkpage, Molobo. Would you like more? I'll look them up too. I'm not mocking you, if you are being sincere here then I like your attitude. Some sincere apologies to the fine Wikipedians above would be a good start, and show your GOOD FAITH.

"I feel always uncomfortable about personal questions, and believe that the articles and edits should be discussed not private life, as it is not the subject of debate. I assure you that I didn't engage in providing personal experience as proof-I think its a very bad concept(and my family didn't suffer in WW2 anyway according to my knowledge If you want to know, besides I am of German heritage).However I don't know what you mean by my personal beliefs ?"

I mean Poloncentricism and Anti-German, Anti-Russian biases. But Thank you for a bit on your background, I never imagined you might be of German heritage. I know many Germans who suffer from "War guilt" and self-loathing due to some of the things their nation did during the war. Where we are coming from helps us to understand where we are and who we are. I come from a military family. One of my cousins was killed in the Battle of The Bulge. My great uncle Cleve was nearly blinded by a German gas attack in WWI (I was 6 years old, sitting on his knee when he told me the story). I see it this way, Germany paid for it. Paid for it in many ways: By having their nation almost completely destroyed and overrun, by being occupied and divided for over 44 years, by their millions of deaths and by loss of territory, much of it to Poland BTW. Not to mention the Gulags, rapes and tons of other examples of "Victor's justice" inflicted upon them by the Soviets. So there is no need to "Rub their noses" in it. Doing so only makes things worse..turns shame and guilt into resentment and new hatred which only breeds and strengthens neo-nazis, skinheads and other ilk. Just because your opponents are bigots doesnt mean you have to be one as well. I'm glad you responded in a positive way, there may be (an NPOV:) hope for you yet. Best regards,--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 12:04, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

The time has come

Dear friend. I and Dbachmann are discussing opening that inevitable RfAr against you know who. It is time to gather the forces and to collect the evidence. Let's deal with this liability to Misplaced Pages once and for all.--Wiglaf 11:45, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Lead the way. "Lay on MacDuff, And damn'd be him that first cries, 'Hold, enough!'":>--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 06:40, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Reply

Hi, would you please read the edit summary, if you had you would see that my bot was performing a necessary task; removing excess templates from pages, which does not alter the look of the page. It is a bit disturbing that you labelled it a "vandel bot", next time, think then act. I see you just rolled back my edit, now that is verging on vandism. Martin 10:50, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

It is no more than what your bot did to a page my freinds and I have put a LOT of work into. And I see from THIS, I'm not the only one to compain about your bot. One admin even thought it necessary to put a BLOCK on it. And this was only a few days ago. Should this hostile and uncooperative attitude of yours contine, I shall file another complaint against your bot AND YOU.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 11:06, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

No-one else agreed that that complaint was justified, my bot was changing pages to match the consensus format. I would like you to explain why {{Prettytable}} is necessary. I don't think you can, because there is no reason. Your attitude is hostile and uncooperative and totally unjustified, I can't see what you would file in this complaint against me, as I have clearly done nothing wrong, I have explained clearly why my bot was right, you have offered no reasoning at all, just silly threats. Martin 11:20, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

No, I asked you POLITELY but FIRMLY to please put a leash on your bot and restrain it from altering TEMPLATES. Instead you responded by doing the exact same thing to the same page, Without even DICUSSING it first. And this is'nt the only time your bot has made unwelcome and unneeded edits. Nor will it be my only complaint if I file one. For instance, HERE, your bot effectively created TWO "See also" sections. The reason I had that link listed separately is because it is a DAUGHTER article created by PhilX, hence a RELATED article, not a see also, as the article's discussion page will show. That's the problem with bots-they edit without discussion (or THINKING) first. Moreover, the "Manual of Style", which seems to be your Koran, is not a bunch of written in stone rules, but GUIDELINES. Having a bot running around mindlessly enforcing your ridgid interpretations of them, goes against the spirit, if not the letter, of Misplaced Pages. If you find me hostile, sir, then it is not without reason. Unlike your bot, which is unable to reason and its creator who seems incapable of being reasonable.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 11:50, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

An article should not have a "related articles" section and a "see also" section, if you think you are above the manual of style then you are simply wrong. When you say I didnt discuss it first, perhaps you haven't actaully read this which clearly shows that templates should be replaced, sorry for not asking you first, but, quite frankly, I don't need to ask you everytime I edit an article you have editted.

"mindlessly enforcing your ridgid interpretations of them" No, I was correcting articles to match the MoS, if you think the MoS is wrong, or that you don't need to follow guidlines, then you are really really wrong.

You still haven't justified your revertion of my bots edit.

p.s. I posibly won't be able to respond for a while. Martin 12:07, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

you are way out of line, I'll deal with this later. Martin 12:10, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Please, both of you calm down. Now I have myself been replacing prettytable with {| class="wikitable" - anything that will help Misplaced Pages to not be so painfully slow can be a great thing :-) The table doesn't seem to be noticeably different, in my opinion at least. So please, both of you just shake hands and forget about this incident. Both of you are great editors, so don't let a minor disagreement get in the way of cordial relations. By the way, I have to say that Bluemoose appears to have taken the decision of his own accord to replace prettytable after seeing significant (but not unanimous opposition) to the prettytable in TFD. Is that true, Bluemoose? SoLando (Talk) 12:39, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

No, I am doing per Misplaced Pages:Template substitution, it isn't to do with the tfd, I don't think it should be deleted. thanks Martin 12:49, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, Thanks Solando for your calming influence. Martin, we obviously have polar differences in outlook on the MoS. To me, guidelines are suggestions and examples...not orders. They are subject to interpretation and change. The very term STYLE (as in Fashion) connotes this. Moreover, so what if they ARE rules? Even then they would get trumped by Misplaced Pages:Ignore all rules. I apologize for using the V word with regards to your bot. I reverted its edits because I wanted to discuss them first. But this- "quite frankly, I don't need to ask you everytime I edit an article you have editted." is exactly the attitude I'm talking about..and it is how editwars get started. For someone who is "a firm believer in common sense, much more so than rules and guidlines. " You seem pretty bloody devoted to the letter of some of them moreso than the spirit. Which goes flat out against what Misplaced Pages:Ignore all rules when it states "The spirit of the rules is more important than the letter." I also do not see how I'm "Out of line" to talk with MY friend on HIS page about an article WE have put a lot of work into. Frankly, I don't have to ask your permission. I called SoLando in to intercede. He has done so. (Thank you bro). And as promised, I now drop my objections and will allow YOUR edits to stand. At least until the fickle finger of fashion changes again and the new template format becomes "out of style". Please take all the time you want in responding. Till then, sir --R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 13:32, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Your message to your friend was a personal attack on me. This is nothing to do with the MoS (it makes no mential afaik to subst:'ing templates), I referred to that in regard to the previous dispute I had with a user (which, no one has agreed with his point of view, everybody involved agreed with me). You do realise that my edit made no difference to the look of your article, and that over use of templates slows down the servers unneseccarily. Martin 14:49, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi R.D.H, I just want to quickly point out that 1) Misplaced Pages:Ignore all rules is definately not an excuse to literally ignore all rules, this is a frequent misuse of it and 2) the MoS is a consesus driven guideline that is very rarely subject to any change, we really should try and stick to it as much as possible.

Anyway, the issue is resolved now, and I really hope we can get on in the future and work positively together on something, consider this an attempt to "shake hands and make up" as recommended by SoLando. thanks Martin 21:58, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Martin, consider the hands shaken. The issue is indeed resolved. And please accept my apologies for any personal offence. Let's put it all down to yet another case of misunderstanding. My main concern was your edits would somehow undermine the look and/or stability of the article. But this does not seem to be the case. I still, however, agree to disagree with you on the nature of the MoS. This is a philosophical difference, though, which cannot be as easily reconciled. Also, bots are perhaps better for performing certain kinds of tasks than others. While Bluebot did not seem to cause a problem here, it may not always be the case for every template. Misunderstandings such as this are bound to occur in the future, and may not be resolved as quickly or (relatively) amicably. Best regards, --R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 05:20, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Nice one. thanks Martin 11:18, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you!

Hi R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine),

You're VERY welcome and congrads! I can see from your pleasant manner, along with all the outpouring of support you will make a fine admin who will wield the mop wisely and well. Best regards,--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 09:12, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

You're welcome, I'm proud to have supported you and will do so again. I'm very glad you are staying on Misplaced Pages, it sorely needs good and good natured editors such as yourself. At some point in the not too distant future, I strongly urge you to reconsider running for admin again. With the strong outpouring of support you received, plus the fact the infamous "black book" is now gone, you will almost certainly make it next time around. Cheers and best regards,--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 18:55, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Vodka

Well, I'm already smiling. I was even laughing hysterically, laughing my jaws off today. Though I'm not that merry now and I'm afraid shaking hands with certain people is beyond my abilities now. I though I could smile endlessly and repeat the same things in a calm tone several times in a row, but there apparently is a certain ammount of offense I can bear and this has gone far enough. That's why I'm withdrawing from all discussions with Ghirlandajo until the RfC is ready. I'm currently gathering diffs and links and trying to calm down a bit before I do something too serious. Hope it sounds reasonable enough. Halibutt 21:19, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Sounds quite reasonable. I know how difficult it can be for reasonable people with a good sense of humor to deal with unreasonable ones who have none. BTW I find it particularlly funny how he accuses you of sicking Molobo on him, as if Molobo were some sockpuppet. No one controls Molobo...not even Molobo...right Molobo? The Vodka must make him paranoid too:> Cheers M'friend, --R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 22:00, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I thought you might be interested in Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment/Ghirlandajo. Just search for your username. If you would like a 'honorable Pole' badge or something, I think you have just qualified ;p --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:40, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

YAY For Dino's!!

Thanks for voting. Spawn Man 01:56, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

HI 5 ;>--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 02:04, 5 December 2005 (UTC)