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User:Wikifan12345's personal attacks on Talk:List of terrorist incidents, 2009

There has been a ongoing discussion on this talk page between myself, Wikifan12345, O Fenian, GeorgeWilliamHerbert, SeanHoyland and Seb az86556 about whether classifying incidents as terrorist without a supporting source is orginal research or not. I'll be honest -- I proposed significant changes that have been met with criticism (and some support); however I have continued to discuss the matter civilly and refrained from editing the article while discussions continue.

Wikifan12345, on the other hand, is disruptively repeating personal attacks against me. He keeps bringing up "Jews", arguing that I am a "manic" anti-Semite. I don't thnk my character or mental health is really relevant to the discussion.

Here are some excerpts: "Whether you believe blowing up Jews is somehow consistent with legal conflict and not terrorism is your POV "... "everything to do with his vendetta against Jews and Israel" ... "Or whether killing Jews in the Jewistan is justified under the ambiguous"..."Yes, you are manically obsessed with Israel and Jews."

Nobody else on the talk page seems to agree with his attacks and he has been repeatedly warned by GeorgeWilliamHerbert to stop the personal attacks. I am tempted to just erase the personal attacks myself, but I know he would just edit war against me. I did remove some Israeli incidents from the article in ONE revert, but to interpret that as a vendetta against Jews is nonsensical. Factsontheground (talk) 06:01, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

This unfortunately came to my attention after the HRW ordeal. I think Wikifan12345 is being extremely belligerent in the RfC on that talk page. But in some cases I don't think your behavior has been much better. I would suggest that both of you take a break for a little while as the "terrorist incidents" RfC looks completely useless for its designed purpose and more like a war zone. I am not an admin so I can take no action, but for the moment it seems that tempers are way too heated to be productive. Awickert (talk) 06:18, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm really not angry but I have no interest in edit-warring if that is what you are suggesting. I just hope FOTG won't follow me to the next article I edit. : ) Wikifan12345 (talk) 06:24, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

• Suggest speedy close. Moving legitimate content dispute to an ANI is dubious. FOTG has been following me around since last week, to BBC and HRW. I accused him of being "manically obsessed" with Jews and Israel because he edit-warred out almost all of the incidents in Israel without a single post in talk. 1 2, 3, 4, 5, and that is just a sample. History of edits at 2009.

• The summaries were lacking, with rationales like "Source does not categorize incident as a terrorist attack." In fact, more than half of the sources explicitly referred to the acts as terrorist incidents. I mean, he removed a incident that involved an Al-Qaeda cell. Can we all agree Al Qaeda is a terrorist organization? :D

• Then when I reverted the page back to a non-dispute state and ask that he explain his edits more thoroughly in discussion, he edit-warred again and accused me of original research.

• Even after I posted the source and copied/pasted direct text, he still denies the sources referred to the incidents as acts of terrorism. Then he whipped out the civility card when I called him on it.

Real mature. Wikifan12345 (talk) 06:21, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

The content dispute is a separate issue. This is about a behavioral dispute. Anger or no, comments like "real mature" are vindictive, and likely to score you negative brownie points here. Now if you are suggesting that FOTG is being very WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and is wikistalking to push your buttons, that's another matter. The content dispute can stay on the RfC on the page, but I don't think I'll have any argument when I say it's going nowhere, so this is to handle the behavioral issues and get things back on track. Hopefully. Awickert (talk) 06:31, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

As a number of people have agreed on the talk page and elsewhere, the article should only list incidents that are described as terrorism by a reliable source. Although it may appear obvious to you that an incident is terrrorism, that is not how Misplaced Pages works. Addition need to be supported by a source or justified on the discussion page. And I can't believe you are still complaining about edits I made a week ago! They have long since been reverted (by you and others) and the discusssion has moved on.

You seem to think that instead of participating in the discussion you can derail everything by continually attacking me.

Factsontheground (talk) 06:29, 31 July 2009 (UTC) Also the so-called "Al Qaeda" cell was actually belonging to the Janud Ansar Allah organization as the reference . Factsontheground (talk) 06:33, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

They updated the posting, it originally referred to the group as belonging to a Al-Qaeda cell. Either way, it is still a terrorist attack as confirmed by the article. But when "Al-Qaeda" was painted all over the article last month, you still removed it. You simply did not read the article and deleted everything remotely Jewish.

Also, The Jerusalem Post is a reliable source. Most of the edits you removed described the incident as acts of terrorism, and yet you continue to deny this. A couple hours ago I restored only some of the edits that were 100% confirmed and obvious, but there are a couple others but should be debated - not viciously warred out. It is rather odd for you to suddenly feel a sense of emotional distress when you've routinely cast me as a troll, pro-Israel warrior, POV-commander, etc...etc...Wikifan12345 (talk) 06:38, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't want to continue the content dispute here. It's not the place for it. All I want is for your personal attacks on the talk page to stop.

So far you haven't even admitted that your behaviour has been wrong in any way. I don't think you have any insight into why people find it offensive when you continually accuse them of being "obsessed with Jews". Factsontheground (talk) 06:45, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Are you for real? Wikifan12345 (talk) 07:13, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

This is not the place for this issue. AN/I is not a part of the DR process. IronDuke 14:22, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

From looking at the RFC on the article talk page it seems that FOTG's complaints about personal attacks have some basis (though some of the quotes would need diffs to substantiate them); and Wikifan's response seems to be aggression, not regret or discussion or understanding. Besides those FOTG mentioned, Wikifan repeatedly calls him a vandal and claims he "manically removed" sources, even bolding "manically". And his general attitude on the page is confrontational, rather than seeking a resolution. Rd232 18:55, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Incidentally, in case there was any doubt about what Wikifan meant by those comments about FOTG in relation to Jews and Israel, a week ago in relation to the same dispute he wrote "It is not a content dispute when an editor is clearly editing with a hateful and antisemitic agenda." (Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive553#Factsontheground removing terrorist attacks aimed at Jews and Israeli soldiers - List of terrorist incidents, 2009). Which WP:ANI let slide, despite the blatant violation of WP:NPA. Rd232 19:04, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Nothing new apparently

I don't know anything about this particular dispute but this is not the first time Wikifan12345 has engaged in unacceptable behavior as part of such a dispute. Not long ago I was having a hard time dealing with this editor myself and tried getting help on another board. See Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette_alerts/archive67#User:Wikifan12345. Perhaps both editors need warnings but Wikifan12345 may need mentorship or something similar.PelleSmith (talk) 11:48, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

AN/I and similar are littered with reports about this user, as any regular viewer of these boards can attest. Perhaps it is about time to consider larger sanctions, as polite warnings do not seem to be getting through. Tarc (talk) 15:30, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Pelle smith, like most of the users here, had a major content dispute and what warring CAIR beyond belief. He removed every single one of my edits, and then he accused me of being a troll for question his massive deletion of material with dubious summaries (OR, undue). I have since left the article. Wikifan12345 (talk) 22:52, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment—Whether Wikifan was out of line or not, it is important not to give immunity to the editor who started this ANI, who has also been engaged in highly disruptive behavior, and has also tried to bring a content dispute into this ANI post (inappropriate). I suggest giving a more thorough examination of both users' editing patterns, instead of focusing on a single editor. —Ynhockey 16:08, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the content dispute - I wandered over there as an uninvolved admin and at this point, we have multiple uninvolved admins reviewing, pushing back on both sides and looking for a best policy / best content solution.

I will leave to other admins a review of both primary parties' behavior here and there (and recommend both be reviewed). I prefer to either deal with a content / policy problem or a user / policy problem, but not both aspects of the same incident, to avoid COI on either side. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:00, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think its appropriate for a comparison to be made between these two users. Wikifan has a block log that is quite shockingly long for such a short time editing here and the use of personal attacks constitutes his primary mode of communication. Every time he is brought to the board, there are editors who try to deflect attention from his behaviour by calling for a more thorough examination of the complainant. Not right. Not right at all. Tiamut 20:56, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Almost all the blocks are from edit-warring, and mostly came to be as a result of involved parties reporting me. It really cannot be applied here IMO. ChriO has his sysops removed because he had a major COI and was blocking several editors at Israel and the apartheid analogy with little warning. Wikifan12345 (talk) 22:52, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

If you are the one who steps over the line, it doesn't matter who reported you; you were at fault for violating editing guidelines. And I believe ChrisO resigned the admin the bit in the wake of the Macedonia2 ArbCom case. It had nothing to do with the article on Israeli apartheid. Tarc (talk) 23:29, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I would support trying to do something about Wikifan. His editing and use of sources is poor, he reverts constantly, and filibusters on talk pages, making normal editing close to impossible on whatever page he's working on. When thwarted, he reverts to insults. SlimVirgin 16:23, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

It's been suggested more than once that there should be an WP:RFC/U on Wikifan's conduct (including here, less than two weeks ago - Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette_alerts/archive67#User:Wikifan12345). Based on the history at ANI, and his block log, and my personal interaction with him in a couple of places, I think that's certainly warranted. Rd232 18:55, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

They don't have grounds when FOTG mercilessly edit-wars out everything remotely Jewish/Israel exclusively with dubious summaries, then call me a POV warrior when I point out his summaries did not match the content of the source. FOTG has a serious issue with Jews and Israel and it is very very offensive. He's call me a troll, POV-warrior, and even implied I was member of the Israel lobby. Also, he is following me around to articles I've been editing and warring those additions too. Rd, I know you mean well but this is a COI because me and you have had serious content disputes before. Has anyone considered perhaps this is an an attempt to steamroll an unpopular user out of the List of terrorist incidents, 2009. The article has boiled down to me and FOTG, so if I'm gone he can once again remove all my edits at-will. Wikifan12345 (talk) 22:43, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

So, you think that: "if I'm gone he can once again remove all my edits at-will". But then, if he isn't the sole editor left if you are gone, how come not a single other editor will defend your edits? Count Iblis (talk) 00:34, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

<outdent> Uh?

• A) All the editors here have been involved in past disputes both content and personal.

• B) None of these users except for FOTG are involved in the List of terrorist incidents, 2009 except for R2 who came much later.

• C) You just dismissed everything else I wrote above.

• D) FOTG reported me for edit-warring without even notifying me, and that went no where here I just discovered that today..

• I also submitted an ANI on FOTG with similar complaints regarding his approach to the article. To say this ANI is genuinely about behavior is naive at best and dishonest at worst.

I suggest a speedy close and returning back to the content dispute at the original article. Wikifan12345 (talk) 01:25, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

So all the editors commenting on your behavior here are just doing so in bad faith because they have been on the other side of a content dispute with you? Likewise any notion that the specific issue reported first above has anything to do with behavior is unfounded because really this is just a content dispute? If you truly believe that version I strongly suggest mentorship at the very least because you really don't seem to get what about your behavior is inappropriate.PelleSmith (talk) 02:11, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Bad faith? No, but this is not unique for ANI Pelle. And considering I lodged an edit-warring report against you (one of my first ever), then you posted an etiquette notice (after you called me a troll), and now you are here endorsing sanctions against a user you've had considerable differences with....certainly does not resonate faith-wise. Wikifan12345 (talk) 07:40, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I may have come into this too late to see the build-up. I consider this genuinely about behavior. Wikifan may think that this is naive, that I am somehow furthering a conspiracy against him. I do not see it that way. Right now, the amount of non-content-related material on the talk page at "terrorist incidents" is unproductive and therefore intolerable. In spite of not being an admin, I would be in favor of, for fairness sake, week-long topic bans for both Wikifan and FOTG on Israel-related content so that real work can actually be done. As I see it there is waste-of-time drama unfolding there and here. (As for previous contact, I have only been involved in mediating HRW recently, so I can say I am pretty uninvolved overall.) Awickert (talk) 07:50, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Did I say conspiracy? No, I did not. I don't understand why you would be personally comfortable with a week-long topic ban when you admit being "pretty uninvolved overall." This is my impression: "Yeah, I don't know these two users and can't say I've been very involved but clearly something's up so let's just ban em' both." :D I would never call for such a punishing act if I didn't have at least a general experience beyond "uninvolved." Maybe it's just me. Wikifan12345 (talk) 09:39, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Wikifan, one of the main problems in the ANI has been that so many involved editors made comments about who should be blocked. We definitely need more uninvolved editors to comment, and whether or not you approve of Awickert's suggestion, it is a welcome step towards resolving this. Hopefully more uninvolved administrators comment here and give their opinions. —Ynhockey 10:50, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

True that. I interpreted Awicket's "uninvolved" description as unaware. As if he simply skimmed through the complaints and applied natural deductive reasoning that unfortunately was not consistent with objectivity. Or perhaps I'm downright guilty and this is a zealous game of mental gymnastics - an argument that is easily made and difficult to refute. Wikifan12345 (talk) 10:59, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Formal mentorship

I have talked to Wikifan12345 about this ANI and it appears that he supports, in principle, formal mentorship. I therefore recommend that, whatever decision is taken on this particular ANI, an uninvolved user/administrator takes it up to mentor Wikifan. Any volunteers? —Ynhockey 10:47, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

To be explicit, I strongly support mentorship as an alternative to sanctions or if need be, accompanying whatever potential "punishment" is applied. This, of course, assuming the punishment is not a totally unconditional topic-ban which would likely void the need for a mentor in the Israel/Palestine subject matter. Unless, of course, the mentor is simply for behavioral-improvements and not party to a specific genre of knowledge. Wikifan12345 (talk) 11:05, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

A 1RR restriction for a few months could also work. If you can revert only once, you have to argue more on the talk page to find support for your edits. Making other editors angry on the talk page would be counterproductive. Also, when editing in the article, your best strategy to get your edits stick shifts toward editing in texts that are likely to be acceptable to people with other POVs. Count Iblis (talk) 13:14, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure how well that'll work, but at least it's easy and doesn't involve finding a mentor and taking up their time (and Wikifan is hardly a weekend editor). Rd232 16:02, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I would support mentorship if one is willing to take their time. My suggestion above was preventative, not punative, as such bans are supposed to be. I actually spent quite a bit of time reading (not skimming) in detail the various back-and-forths. I suggested the short topic ban for both parties because I saw next to 0 productivity in what seemed to be dominated by a giant brawl, and I thought one way to increase the signal/noise would be to take a break. My only feeling is that the talk pages should return to effectiveness. If mentorship is a more acceptable way to do so, then that should work well too. 1RR may also work, though I'm not sure that it will end the talk page mess. I think that what is needed is a commitment from Wikifan (and others) to WP:NPA and to not respond to personal attacks but rather to continue forging ahead on the content. (As a side note, Wikifan above disqualifies all editors from commenting; those involved are too involved, and those uninvolved are too unaware; someone has to do something!) Awickert (talk) 16:50, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Alternatively FOTG and Wikifan could collaborate to rewrite the lede for Julia Set so that it's less hopeless. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:11, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

1RR without other remedies will only worsen what SlimVirgin aptly called "filibustering" on talk pages. In my brief and recent experience with Wikifan this is the worst part. Repetitive arguments which usually amount to WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. If one doesn't respond on the talk page it seems like an unaware onlooker might think one is mindlessly reverting. Complete disruption and a total time drain.PelleSmith (talk) 19:21, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

In my (limited) experience of Wikifan12345, he has come across more as an aggressive, tendentious crank rather than a useful editor. We've seen this editor being brought to AN/I repeatedly; the same kind of issues come up again and again. He seems to have learned nothing from these repeated AN/I discussions. His unwillingness or inability to change his approach makes me think that mentorship is unlikely to be effective. I would suggest blocking him and moving on - he's taken up far too much of other people's time already. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

This is certainly constructive. Wikifan12345 (talk) 20:33, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Uh? -DePiep (talk) 21:27, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Wikifan's thoughts here read like a buy-out: apologise so as not to get a punishment. Great. -DePiep (talk) 21:40, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I mean, more correct: here -DePiep (talk) 21:44, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

The thought of users who have a strong bias (outside of the one that is not "involved), users whom I have lodged complaints against and vice-versa, users who have taken part in bitter disputes involving teams of editors, and users who have demanded banishment before would no doubt express glee at the thought of removing an editor who they rountinly disagree with out of the equitation. Lest we forget, the fact that I submitted a similar ANI against FOTG not-so-long-ago about his wholesale removal of almost every Israel/Jewish incident at List of terrorist incidents, 2009 should raise suspicions over a counter-ANI. I have no problem with mentorship and collaborative process, but in my opinion this is nothing less than a bandwagon. Take me away I guess. Wikifan12345 (talk) 21:52, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Wikifan wrote: Yes, you are manically obsessed with Israel and Jews.". Why do ëven admins faal back to the "you-too" talk? —Preceding unsigned comment added by DePiep (talk • contribs) 22:11, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, FOTG is manically obsessed with Israel and Jews. He unilaterally warred out almost every incident about Israel and Jews, even those that were clearly of terrorist-nature. And when I restored what I perceived to be vandalism or premature deletion, and ask that he provide a thorough reasoning for his wholesale deletion, he accused me of being troll, pov warrior, etc...etc...etc. This is consistent with his behavior in other articles. So fishing for diffs that users might interpret the wrong way if they aren't fully aware of the discussion is suspect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikifan12345 (talk • contribs) 22:34, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Wikifan: no one is to be accused of anti-Semitism freely. You wrote the offensife line. Go away. (To be clear: why do editors and even admins here always end up: second chance? After ten?) -DePiep (talk) 22:48, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Manically obsessed with Jews/Israel does not = antisemitism. Call a spade a spade. Viciously deleting everything Jewish/Israel with bogus summaries, then edit-warring to ensure that the content remains deleted, while continuing to deny wrong-doing in talk strikes me as a manic obsession that is not consistent with policy or reality. I'm sorry if that's "out of line." Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:08, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

You wrote "manically obsessed" (with whatever). That's a disqualification beforehand. Then do not start reasoning afterwards. -DePiep (talk) 00:54, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I think if Wikifan wants/is willing to accept formal mentorship, the piling-on, especially by editors who have diametrically opposed POVs to Wikifan's, should stop now. IronDuke 22:45, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

No offense IronDuke but this does not in any way sound like someone who "wants/is willing to accept formal mentorship." And then there is the fact that a fair amount of the commentators above also don't believe mentorship is going to solve the problem. Wikifan's own attitude only makes one wonder if they aren't correct.PelleSmith (talk) 22:59, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

There is nothing inherently wrong with that post. I don't see how users who are active in on-going disputes (such as Pelle and R2), some of the disputes which have ended up pouring into noticeboards (OR noticeboard, edit-warring noticeboard, etiquette, etc...submitted by both Pelle and myself) should be allowed such a strong voice. I am very open to some kind of mentorship, but from my POV I'd say users like FOTG are in much dire need of assistance. Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:06, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

"nothing inherently wrong" with your post??? You still don't get it. Your posts are wrong. Just stop insulting editors, and from there you may talk. Maybe other too -- but stop it yourself. Not a "strong voice", insulting is what I say. Stop it. -DePiep (talk) 23:11, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Criticizing an editors edits is not insulting. It is certainly that users can have a manic obsession with Israel and Jews, and unfortunately FOTG is one of those users. You aren't recognizing or even remotely addressing the actions of FOTG, for good reason perhaps.

No, criticizing is not insulting. Stating "manic obsession" is insulting, and personal only, and not relevant to the article at all. Drop it. -DePiep (talk) 01:01, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Coming from someone who believes that the Israel-Palestinian articles on wikipedia are dominated by a cabal of "organised, agendised Hasbara." FOTG has a manic obsession and whether or not you misconstrue that as "insulting" is of no importance. He has major issues and it is seen in his mindless reverting of everything remotely Israel. He follows me to articles I work on and reverts my edits, and then harasses me on those articles. So please, who is the victim here? I'm trying to be as cordial as I can be but FOTG has been given a free pass for far to long. And then posting an ANI to save face, well...that's not unique for wiipedia. Wikifan12345 (talk) 02:12, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

No one can speak from experience about your behavior unless they have witnessed it. Isn't it odd that while many such editors think this behavior is a problem no one has come here to say that they are wrong and that you have been behaving as a reasonable Wikipedian? The closest thing to support from a third party here has been "be fair and look at the other guy's behavior too," or "OK already Wikifan says he's willing to accept mentorship." Despite this you continually act like the real problem is with the supposed "cabal" of editors whose are only related to each other because of their negative interactions with you. Meanwhile people become less and less inclined to believe you will be able to change your ways at all. Keep it up.PelleSmith (talk) 23:18, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Pelle, I lodged an edit-war report against you when you started owning CAIR (and ownership that has been confirmed by other users). I also posted a noticeboard incident requesting a fact-check on how you continually edited-out all my additions with "original research" when the content was thoroughly cited. I don't see why I should have to sit here and be lectured by editors who have a compromising history. I'm open to mentorship, but dismiss all of this bandwagoning as pure harassment. Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:00, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

And your numerous disruptive reports at various noticeboards resulted in what exactly? Must be a cabal at work.PelleSmith (talk) 00:13, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

OR inquire was never responded because you hijacked it, and the edit-warring ANI should have succeeded but as several users confirmed, its lack of response can be sourced from the personal feelings of the over-seeing admin. This ANI is the poster child for disruption. Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:30, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Wikifan, can I ask you, just for the next few posts, not to focus at all on other editors, but only on yourself? Is there anything you feel you have done inappropriately in the course of editing Misplaced Pages, either in terms of the way you handle content, or the way you interact with others? Where do you feel you could have done better? Which issues do you feel a mentor could usefully help you with? SlimVirgin 02:23, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Sure, like every user on Misplaced Pages. A mentor could help me navigate through Misplaced Pages bureaucracy, as many editors are very skilled at doing. Avoiding blocks, relying on civil POV-pushing, moving content disputes to ANIs, etc..etc. SlimVirgin, remember when you edit-warred at 1948 Palestinian exodus, removed all my additions, and threatened to send me to ArbComb if I don't heed to your demands? Then I was blocked for a week after I unknowingly reversed your reverts when you submitted an edit-war report. That was a carefully crafted strategy and I've watched many users do it to each other, and it's rather depressing. But to answer your question with all sincerity, I would hope a mentor could help me cite policy in-talk more competently. Maybe carve a slightly better tactful approach to discussion, even in the midst of heated and hostile debate. Normal stuff I guess. It's difficult to assess myself under the current circumstances and what I consider to be an extremely bad faith ANI. If this were closed, I would feel a lot more comfortable discussion mentorship. Wikifan12345 (talk) 03:07, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Mentorship won't work if you won't take responsibility for anything. SlimVirgin 06:41, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I think this thread increasingly illustrates why 1RR probably won't work, and why a WP:RFC/U is needed (that structure would discussion room to breathe, without Wikifan responding to every comment by attacking somebody (generally the author)). Rd232 08:48, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, if you haven't noticed this ANI has nothing to do with edit-warring, so hats to ya. Second, this bandwagon, a bandwagon started by a certified-troll as demonstrated in his approach @ the pertinent article and wikihounding - started the ANI. I'm more than open to mentorship etc. but you are asking for blood in a bad-faith and unfair circumstances. If you dismiss my assessments of this forum as "attacking" well okay. Also, for accuracies sake, the title should be changed to, "Reasons why Wikifan needs to go." Otherwise, the current charter is, for the most part, largely false.

Cliffnotes: FOTG made a dubious claim of personal attacks, but sifting through the discussion you will find just the opposite. Anyways, commence banishment! :D Wikifan12345 (talk) 12:20, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

If y'all need a totally uninvolved, experienced user for a mentorship, I'd be happy to help out. I only stumbled upon this conversation because I can't sleep and have no prior dealings with Israel related articles or any of the editors involved here. I do have experience dealing with conflict in my own areas of interest. Cheers, Gimme danger (talk) 08:19, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I haven't been on WP long enough to act as a mentor. However, if Wikifan needs an open ear he should know that he can call on me to provide a comment at any time and I will do my best to be as helpful as possible.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 08:03, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

More Uninvolved Admins

While I'm not sure it is necessary it might be nice to hear from an additional admin or two who have not had any run-ins with Wikifan yet.PelleSmith (talk) 23:18, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to see this ANI be led by users who haven't expressed a personal dislike or have been the subject of ANIS/reports etc. submitted by myself. Pelle has taken an unusually strong interesting in keeping this alive, perhaps because of our on-going dispute at Council on American-Islamic Relations. Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:02, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

This is truly odd. I'm asking for your sake, because you keep on claiming that everyone commenting here has a vendetta against you.PelleSmith (talk) 00:14, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I am not claiming that. Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:27, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Pelle, I think it would be useful if you stopped antagonizing Wikifan here. You may not intend to, but it is obviously having that effect. You've had your say, more gasoline does not need to be poured on. IronDuke 03:15, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

A general comment

At the risk of straying from the immediate problem, I would like to point out that the kind of vicious conflicts we see here are inherent in the way the Misplaced Pages is edited and the way the Five Pillars are interpreted in conflict areas. This is a clear case of narrative war, with each side incapable of seeing neutrality as defined by the other side. In the Middle East, there is no neutral point of view.

What is more, the word "terrorism" is editorial wherever it appears. That a reliable source refers to an incident as terrorism does not make it so. Reliable sources have POVs just like everyone else.

Because of the way NPOV and RS are applied in Middle East articles, conflict of this type is inevitable. The warring parties are not to blame. The system is to blame.

To avoid these conflicts, then, requires a radical rethinking of how to apply the five pillars in conflict situations. I suggested such an approach in User:Ravpapa/The Politicization of Misplaced Pages, and would love to see a serious attempt to experiment with the ideas proposed there. --Ravpapa (talk) 12:22, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

All due respect Ravpapa, when the same user is having the same problems over and over it no longer is just "the system". Now Wikifan will likely say I am only here because of content disputes with him, but I do not plan on arguing for his banning. But a bit of history should be made clear. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive534#User:Wikifan12345, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive33#User:Wikifan12345_and_User:Brewcrewer, Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive532#User:Wikifan12345, Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive515#Some_wikihounding_going_on. Above he pretty much says he would like a mentor to teach him how to wikilaywer more effectively, I think that would be a disaster. What he needs is to keep from writing anything about others motives or beliefs. It really is that simple, if he does not keep trying to call others "manically obsessed with Jews" or "antisemites" or other such insults he would not be here over and over. I have no idea about FOTG, I didnt look at the talkpage in question. But WF needs to do one of 2 things at this point. Either stop making such allegations to other users, or provide some actual evidence of racist editing. One of the two editors should be blocked, either for editing in an antisemitic manner or for making repeated false accusations of antisemitism. But wikifan cannot be allowed to continue saying these things without proving them. nableezy - 15:07, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

All due respect Nableezy, it is pretty obvious that most if not all the editors speaking up against Wikifan are very active pro-Palestinian editors. Ravpapa has a very good point about the system not working well when you have a content/narrative war like in IP. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:18, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I have content/narrative disagreements/wars with a lot of people, but it doesn't lead to ANI. There is a pattern of consistent personal attacks and bad faith assumptions peppering most of Wikifan's talk page commentary, and an inability to acknowledge its problematic. People shouldn't be asked to overlook that because there's a raging ethnic conflict in the background. Tiamut 21:03, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Without talking about Wikifan specifically, it's pretty obvious that in this kind of dispute most of the people pushing for sanctions are those on the other side of the content/narrative war. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:48, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually what's pretty obvious is that even those who share Wikifan's views can't defend his behaviour; and can only defend him by attacking the motives of others and generally deflect away from the issue of Wikifan's behaviour. Rd232 04:48, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

But this thread is "about Wikifan specifically" and not about some general IP narrative war (which I take no part in personally btw). So why are people incapable of speaking specifically in defense of Wikifan's behavior as opposed to simply trying to deflect the discussion? To reiterate Tiamut's point, major disagreements, some of which are very deep and very old, are an everyday reality here at Misplaced Pages but they usually don't end up at AN/I. When they do there is almost always a behavior problem that goes beyond content disputes -- whether the problem is with the person being grilled or conversely with the person abusing the noticeboards (or both). Either way, a discussion here signals something beyond a content dispute.PelleSmith (talk) 22:05, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

You don't take part in IP but you didn't arrive here clean of prejudice, did you? Anyway, Ravpapa made a general comment (see section header) and I was addressing that. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:32, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

As I've said, this ANI was posted by a textbook troll who warred out every incident he didn't like and when I called him on it, he went on and on and on about how I'm an agent of Zion. Seriously? Now FOTG has been hounding me at BBC and Human Rights Watch, and a couple other articles warring out all my edits with little reasoning. And now an ANI? No editor has recognized this. I said FOTG was manically obsessed with Jews and Israel several times - I meant it and it wasn't an attack but simply an accurate assessment of his editing approach. He removed 9+ incidents exclusively about Jews, reverted anyone who dared touch his edits, and then started a nice long dispute about how we should re-define what is a terrorist incident to exclude Israel. Yes I'm obviously partial here but he came off extremely combative and very, very offensive. I posted an ANI but it was assessed as a content dispute and not a behavioral problem. It's not like FOTG has been the nicest editor to ever exist. : ) Wikifan12345 (talk) 05:31, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

The thing is, you don't get to decide what is or isn't attack. Calling someone manically possessed is a comment on the editor, not the editing. If they have a problem with it, you have offended them. Of course, "textbook troll" is much more clean-cut. Like before, I'm not saying that FOTG's hands are clean either, but you are certainly digging yourself into a pit. If you can leave diffs below (I made a space), perhaps this can go ahead with more sanity, and we can stop being "unaware" and start dealing with the full issue. Awickert (talk) 05:53, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay? Have you read through the talk discussion and looked the page history? He raided the article, maliciously axed out almost everything Jewish/Israel, warred any further attempts to add similar incidents, created long disputes that had little to no relevance, and accused me of being a member of the pro-Israel lobby, POV-pusher, troll, etc. He has a major issue with Jews and it is very, very offensive. If I were to go into Islam and remove every mention of "Mohamed," I'd expect a similar, or perhaps even violent reaction. So I sincerely apologize if I was out of line and will make an effort to be more tactful. Wikifan12345 (talk) 06:01, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Just to clarify, my comments were not meant as a defense or excuse for Wikifan. People need to take responsibility for their actions. I was only pointing out that where there is a leaky pipe, there is wood rot. You can cut out and replace the wood, but if you want to really stop the rot, you need to fix the pipe. --Ravpapa (talk) 05:41, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I think Misplaced Pages should recognize that regular sources are not so reliable when it comes to this conflict. So, one can impose a restriction on the type of sources that can be admitted. E.g. one could decide that only peer reviewed academic articles written by historians can be used as a source. Count Iblis (talk) 13:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Uninvolved admins please comment

Uninvolved admins please comment on what sanctions may be appropriate.

OK, I've had enough. It's not enough that no-one is willing to defend Wikifan's behaviour, which encompasses comments such as "It is not a content dispute when an editor is clearly editing with a hateful and antisemitic agenda." (Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive553#Factsontheground removing terrorist attacks aimed at Jews and Israeli soldiers - List of terrorist incidents, 2009). Now Wikifan's continuing attempt to derail this ANI discussion by attacking others and doing everything except discussing his own behaviour (eg insisting that this discussion I hatted is constructive) demonstrates such a WP:IDIDN'THEARTHAT behaviour that it makes me believe that a substantial sanction is required. I find it hard to believe that mentoring will be successful. I find it hard to believe that 1RR (which somebody proposed) will achieve anything either. Frankly, I'm rapidly reaching the view that Misplaced Pages - certainly on topics where Wikifan cannot play well with others - is simply better off without this particular 14-year old (User:Wikifan12345/About). Disclosure: I've had previous run-ins with Wikifan and we also have opposing views. Rd232 15:15, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

We have to try mentorship or 1RR (or a combination) first. If that fails then we can raise that here again. If a 1RR or 0RR is imposed, then Wikifan will know that the only way he can edit wikipedia is by cooporating with other editors. If Wikifan insults someone, then he'll only hurt himself. So, there is no need to make a lot of fuss about that. Count Iblis (talk) 22:57, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the constructive criticism. So I guess that settles it? This certainly isn't an attempt to remove an editor you are currently in a content dispute with at not 1, but 2 articles. :D Wikifan12345 (talk) 05:22, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

AFAIK, I only reverted one edit to the BBC article by you a few days ago. I checked your recents edits to get an idea of the nature of the dispute and I saw an edit to the BBC article which had been vanadalized by an anon (not you). I also saw that your edit was problematic and I reverted that too because it gave far too much weight to a minor argument about Hamas.

Now, I don't care much about the wiki articles on Israel/Palestine anymore (I was involved there until 2 years ago), because they are not reliable anyway. So, I was not going to revert other edits by you that I found problematic. But I found to be BBC case to be different because I think the wiki article on BBC has more value than the Israeli/Palestinian articles. I stuck to one revert which more or less reverted to the consensus reached on the talk page. Count Iblis (talk) 13:19, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

CountIblis: The WP:NPA policy clearly states that nobody should have to put up with being insulted and vilified on Misplaced Pages. Wikifan12345's continual attacks against me have not only derailed discussions that I've been involved with, they have soured my whole experience of Misplaced Pages. So, no, Wikifan12345 _is_ hurting other people than himself as he continues his campaign of harassment. And, no, 1RR or mentorship is not nearly enough, particularly as he fails to admit he has done anything wrong and seems to think that being mentored is just an opportunity to improve his wikilawyering skills. Factsontheground (talk) 00:10, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Diffs

I would like to invite Wikifan and FOTG to place various annotated diffs that they find problematic in an orderly manner below. Having the two involved editors line up their complaints seems like the most straightforward way to comprehensively deal with the issue. Having the diffs lined up will also make it easier for uninvolved editors to comment comprehensively. Awickert (talk) 05:44, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Wait, so we are supposed to sift through the bloated talk discussion and post questionable diffs like this is a courtroom? This is must be a trap. Wikifan12345 (talk) 05:50, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

No, this is a way for us to actually come to a decision instead of being "unaware" or not seeing the big picture. This is me giving you the benefit of the doubt that there are things that FOTG did that were out of line before, that caused your uncivil reaction. Or, we can go the RfC route where the posting of diffs is formalized. Your choice. But for now, if the involved editors are not willing to put the work in to present their case, I don't see why anyone else should waste their time here. Awickert (talk) 05:59, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Hm. Okay I've just seen this before and competing editors end up enumerating every diff to demonstrate cause of action. Diff's themselves can take issues out of context. I'm not on trial here Awickert, and as I've said the motivations for this ANI were bad and the context was abhorrent. I won't be on wikipedia for the next 3-5 days for travel-reasons but I'll try to sneak in intermittently. thanks. Wikifan12345 (talk) 06:22, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Repeated personal attacks on User:Factsontheground by User:Wikifan12345 -- can an uninvolved admin please comment on this or take action

• "all of his reverts revolved around Israel and Jews."..."The fact the FOTG edits were blatant vandalism and now he gets to dictate the rubric of terrorism is truly disturbing."

• FOTG's wild deletion of every Jew/Israel incident under false summaries, and then refusing to concede after I copied and pasted the references that explicitly refer to the incidents as acts of terrorism. It was a gross abuse of editing privileges and to target all things Jewish is doubly offensive.

• This is all totally irrelevant is avoiding the true fact that FOTG viciously and obsessively edited out ALL incidents on Israel and Jews with the same basic summary, 5 of which have proven to be false. The fact that he totally wiped out incidents because a source was dead instead of simply finding a new one proves this has little to do with terrorism and everything to do with his vendetta against Jews and Israel.

• It is offensive that you targeted strictly Jewish-related incidents.

• Whether you believe blowing up Jews is somehow consistent with legal conflict and not terrorism is your POV

• Yes, you are manically obsessed with Israel and Jews.

• FOTG aim was to remove everything Israel and Jewish, he doesn't give less of a #$#$@ about the terrorist rubric. Don't be an apologist for such a hateful user.

• What FOTG has does defies logic

• The discussion began because an obvious vandal decided to remove cited information and force a dispute.

• So edit-warring out everything Jewish and Israel is totally cool and does not warrant administrator intervention. I guess antisemitism is protected then, sweet.

• It is certainly that users can have a manic obsession with Israel and Jews, and unfortunately FOTG is one of those users.

• Manically obsessed with Jews/Israel does not = antisemitism. Call a spade a spade. Viciously deleting everything Jewish/Israel with bogus summaries, then edit-warring to ensure that the content remains deleted, while continuing to deny wrong-doing in talk strikes me as a manic obsession that is not consistent with policy or reality

• It is not a content dispute when an editor is clearly editing with a hateful and antisemitic agenda.

another one on this noticeboard - "certified troll" untwirl(talk) 23:26, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

• He has a major issue with Jews and it is very, very offensive.

Both blocked for a week

I invite uninvolved admin review, but I have just blocked both Wikifan12345 and Factsontheground for 1 week. The specific issues are:

• Mutual stalking and harrassment on multiple wiki pages
• Disruption on ANI
• Both accounts are single purpose accounts
• Miscellaneous incivility

I do not propose to include diffs; the thread above and the article talk pages referenced stand full of examples.

I would like to request independent review on 2 separate points:

1. Is the current block of each party appropriate.
2. Is the indefinite block penalty for disruptive SPAs appropriate, i.e. should we community ban these two at this point.

Thanks for any comments. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:31, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

FYI, Factsontheground is asking for a block review. Uninvolved admin should take a look at this and his request... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:48, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand why parity was applied to the sanctions here. I don't see parity in the community's complaints and levels of frustration with these two users. I also believe that someone other than Georgewilliamherbert should have done the blocking. George forshadowed FOTG's COI complaint himself during this very discussion. Don't get me wrong sanctions should have been applied to both of them (perhaps not blocks of equal lengths of time), but they should have been applied by someone else.PelleSmith (talk) 02:42, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Admins are not supposed to gain advantage in a content dispute by admin actions - I am opposed to one of Factsontheground's policy positions on the one article this is focused around, but I have left multiple behavioral warnings for Wikifan12345. I commented on the policy dispute as an uninvolved admin and have not taken any admin or content actions on the article, and won't now.

Having been tangled up in trying to unwrap a multiparty dispute does not disqualify one from blocking party or parties to that dispute... Often, admins have to get somewhat involved to try and untangle incidents. That doesn't mean that we can't issue warnings or block once we start to get involved. If it is a content issue, or someone we have a personal disagreement with, we should stand aside for more uninvolved admins, but neither of those is in play here. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:59, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Following up PelleSmith's note about my comment above ( ) more specifically - yes, I stood back from the behavioral issues over the weekend, because I had been involved in a content issue on a page with these two users. But there's a difference between "attempting to find a policy resolution for a content issue" and "trying to change content / edit a page with content specific point of view". Admins involved in the first don't have to recuse from admin enforcement - admins involved in the second have at least the apparent conflict of interest between neutrality and their content issues. I have not ever edited the article in question or related articles, and in the underlying issue (Israeli - Palestinean on-wiki conflicts) I remain an equal opportunity policy enforcer.

It's fair to ask about this - And I'm open to input if other admins strongly object - but I do not believe that I violated policy. Wikifan12345 is behaviorally a worse offender here and at least marginally worse on the article page. Both sides are clearly harrassing each other way in excess of policy, now. Factsontheground has been better at staying lower profile and more civil but has also poked in and provoked some responses; we have a more active interpretation of baiting behavior than we used to, and I believe that some of his actions fall under that.

Perhaps there's less than perfect symmetry to the provocations; if anyone wants to discuss reductions from the equal blocks, and believes that one side is significantly less at fault, feel free to propose it here. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:10, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Just to be clear I am not saying you violated policy. I simply think after making the comment I linked to above you should have stepped back. It also looks like your block only accounts for their incivility towards one another on the talk page of the entry you involved yourself in and not the volumes of text about Wikifan produced once discussion started. You could have blocked them both prior to this discussion for been incivil to one another on the talk page and spared us all this discussion. But now that we've spent days discussing Wikifan's history of problems, and several editors are calling for much harsher remedies this doesn't seem like a very appropriate solution anymore. That's just my opinion.PelleSmith (talk) 11:42, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

As another user who has had problems with Wikifan, I would note that a fair number of administrators who have problems with him were once 'uninvolved administrators'. For example, Rd232 replied on Talk:Mohamed ElBaradei as an uninvolved admin and another uninvolved mediator was chased off by Wikifan. As with most of Wikifan's editing, the article went through an RfC, noticeboards, a third opinion, and an informal mediation. The result was a deadlock with Wikifan dissenting. How many uninvolved administrators does it take, and what happens when there simply aren't any left? Why does he have a problem with so many editors, let alone administrators?

In the interest of disclosure, I have interacted with Wikifan before, so my opinion may be completely tarnished.--76.214.144.81 (talk) 04:54, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

• My one interaction with Wikifan indicated that he had problems at working collegially. I'd say that his block should be longer than FOTGs here purely for the volume and quantity of incivility, but others may disagree (and no doubt will). I would suggest unblocking FOTG at this point; however I am not going to do it myself as I am going on holiday now and it wouldn't be the best idea to reverse another admin's block and then run away. Black Kite 09:50, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

i have avoided adding my two cents here, but seeing the repeated personal attacks by wikifan on this noticeboard (with no provocation or response in kind by fotg) forced my hand. when i saw that he called fotg a "certified troll" and no one batted an eye, i looked at the article talk page in question. not only did i not see more incivility by wikifan, i noted that fotg backed out of that conversation early on. unless the blocking admin provides diffs of fotg's offenses, i agree that he should be unblocked.
as for wikifan, his baiting, personal attacks, and tendentious wikilawyering were unacceptable. as a shining example, view this diff posted while this ani was in progress,where he responds to seanhoyland with drama-inducing hyperbole: "Whether you think the standard for terrorism is pioneer UAVs blowin up Taliban hideouts in West Pakistan or Jew Nazis blowin up Palestinians fetus's is of little relevance." sean wisely ignored it, but this editor should probably be topic banned at least if he cant keep his emotions under control. untwirl(talk) 18:36, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Is Wikifan12345 at or near the threshold for a community ban at this point? Does anyone feel that he or she would be productive in other areas with a topic ban on Israeli / Palestinean topics? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 19:10, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

At or near? Well beyond, IMHO. However, a topicban from I/P issues would, given Wikifan's ...narrow... focus, essentially be a community ban anyway. That being said, it would give him a chance to redeem himself. I think we'd be on a hiding to nothing there, and the community would best be served by giving him a permanent invitation to the world, but people around here tend to prefer endless last chances. I guess basically a topicban would show whether this is a problem with Wikifan, or a problem with Wikifan+I/P. → ROUX ₪ 19:19, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I would support a 6 month topic ban from Israel/Palestine related articles. I think Wikifan might be more amenable to collaboration on articles not so close to heart. Kevin (talk) 00:13, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Having looked at some of the diffs presented in this dispute, it's clear this was a conflict over a well-known point (for the fun of it, I typed in WP:TERRORIST, & guess what I found!) that spiraled out of control. I can understand why FOTG was removing the word, & why Wikifan was insisting on restoring it -- but "terrorist" is one of those words that should only be used in very clear situations: as part of a quotation, or only where all parties concerned have agreed on a clear definition of the word. But to do this all parties have to talk to each other, not at each other or past each other. If you can't talk to someone you disagree with (& is otherwise an editor in good standing) about an issue, then walk away from that issue for a while; if you can't walk away either, then you're taking those first steps towards getting banned from Misplaced Pages. -- llywrch (talk) 19:39, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

• Although I agree with much of the foregoing, the policing and sanctions for breach of WP:CIVIL by individuals is inconsistent at best and unenforceable at worst. You sysops' inability to arrive at the same conclusion on two very similar cases (see below) perpetuates the perceived problems in the system. Ohconfucius (talk) 02:20, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Topic ban for User:Wikifan12345

I propose that we enact the following, note on Misplaced Pages:Editing_restrictions and enforce as a community ban:

User:Wikifan12345 is prohibited from editing any article or article talk page related to Israel, the Palestinean territories, or nearby Arab countries, broadly construed, for the remainder of the 2009 calendar year. If violations occur any administrator may block immediately for a month, with escalating blocks for repeat offenses.

• Proposed. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:03, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
• Support. Community sanction. Ncmvocalist (talk) 02:43, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
• Support, per my comments above and with a caveat. Namely that this will amount to a de facto community ban given his specific focus, but hopefully this will give him a chance to change. The caveat being if the same behaviour continues at non-I/P articles, this topicban be immediately changed to a permanent community ban that can be revisited in one year by appeal to ArbCom or its designate (if the Appeal Committee thing takes off). → ROUX ₪ 03:01, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
• Question Would it be possible to amend the language to say something like "related to Israeli political interests broadly construed" or something else of that nature. I ask this because my own run-ins with this editor were at two entries related to the Council for American-Islamic Relations which I am not sure are directly covered by the above language. To Wikifan these entries do relate to the problem area of editing since he (and others) consider CAIR to be part of the "Anti-Israel lobby of the United States". If people think the existing language would cover entries such as these then that works for me. Thanks.PelleSmith (talk) 03:11, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Anything related to Israel, includes Israeli political interests (and if they existed, Anti-Israeli articles). Ncmvocalist (talk)`
    • Thanks for the answer and for inserting "broadly construed". This seems like a fair remedy at this point.PelleSmith (talk) 11:29, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
• Support - Kevin (talk) 03:33, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
• Support This proposal, unfortunately, does not surprise me at all. Wikifan seems quite prone to make inappropriate slights about Arabs and accuse others of anti-semitism to support his points (e.g. , ,). Add the information from his recent Wikiquette alert and it's quite clear this area of Misplaced Pages would be better off without Wikifan's involvement. -- tariqabjotu 06:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
• Comment Wikifan12345 has sometimes behaved clumsily, no doubt. However, note that there are editors with an anti-Israel agenda who try to insert the most outrageous tendentious things into articles. They are very careful to stay clear of the bounds of WP's silly civility rules but beaver away tirelessly with apparently limitless time on their hands. Then when an editor blows up at them they immediately run to an admin asking for sanctions to be imposed. Please keep this in mind also. --Goodmorningworld (talk) 07:53, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
  • I know there are people who edit in this area with an agenda, but that's really not the issue at hand here. Wikifan is, regardless, responsible for his actions, but in basically all of the situations mentioned here, he wasn't even provoked. -- tariqabjotu 08:40, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
• Support. Wikifan has much to learn about following the spirit and letter of WP policy, which he is much more likely to on less difficult subjects less close to his heart. If nothing else, it'll give him a chance to live up to his username. Rd232 08:07, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
• Support I've held my tongue (actually finger I guess) for too long. It's not really his edits that I'm particularly worried about, but the very uncivil talk page interactions he undertakes and his general behavior on Misplaced Pages, despite numerous warnings. I think only a topic ban could finally settle this issue which is constantly(and annoyingly) surfacing on this noticeboard. Maybe after its expiration, he will change his attitude here. However, I prefer the topic ban to be limited to I-P issues versus anything that has to do with Israel (he might be able to contribute positively there). --Al Ameer son (talk) 08:26, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

  I don't think that would be helpful, shifting focus from I/P to Israel. In fact it would probably be better if he stayed away from political topics altogether, at least for a while, but that's up to him. Rd232 10:11, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

• Alternative. I have read over the debate. Wikifan blew up pretty quickly. IMO editing Misplaced Pages is a privilege that anyone should be able to have, but if one can't treat others with respect and instead causes drama, granting that privilege is counterproductive to the primary task of creating an encyclopedia. I would support a topic ban, not of a year, but indefinitely, until Wikifan decides to behave civilly. I would then support any re-ban if after declaring he will behave civilly, Wikifan behaves in an obviously uncivil way. Awickert (talk) 08:36, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

  If Wikifan shows that he can't play well with others on other topics, the topic ban should just become a general indef ban. The topic ban is his chance to learn and if it seems that he's learned, then it's fair he gets another chance. A simple declaration under duress is worth little. Rd232 10:11, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

  If you're saying that if he plays well with others, his year-long topic ban may be reviewed and removed, then it is close enough to what I'm thinking that I will support. As for the "simple declaration": yes, I am the optimist, but I understand. Awickert (talk) 16:08, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

• Support - battleground mentality. PhilKnight (talk) 08:49, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
• Support - prying yet another warrior from the battlefield of the I-P topic area can only be a good thing. Let's see if he can find an area of interest to devote legitimate editing to. Tarc (talk) 13:16, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
• Comment - everybody does realize that any uninvolved admin can impose this sanction, per WP:ARBPIA, right? This straw poll really is not needed. As somebody who has had heated arguments with Wikifan I wont comment on the proposal, but this (the poll) seems like a waste of time. nableezy - 13:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

• Hi Nableezy, there's a possibility the scope of this ban is slightly wider than a WP:ARBPIA topic ban, however I think you're probably right. Regardless, the result is essentially the same. After this ban is enacted, I'll put a note in the WP:ARBPIA log . PhilKnight (talk) 13:24, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

• No, Nableezy isn't quite right. The difference is this. When an individual admin imposes a sanction under ARBPIA, appeals can go to either an individual admin, AE or ArbCom. For the sanction imposed here, appeals can only go to the community (either here or WP:AN), or ArbCom (though they'd be expected to bring it back here anyway, in light of the fact this sanction was not imposed under the ArbCom remedy, despite its existence). Effectively, this sanction should be logged at WP:RESTRICT - not at ARBPIA. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:55, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

• I see. Thanks for the clarification. But an admin could impose the same restriction, but the appeal process would be different, right? nableezy - 04:06, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

• Indeed. To clarify, even if it's the same sanction, this one would run concurrently to the one imposed under ARBPIA. That is, even if the appeal was accepted by the imposing admin who used ARBPIA, another appeal would need to be heard by the community before the effect of the restriction can be lifted. Does that make sense? Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:20, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

• As much as anything else that happens here, thanks :) nableezy - 04:37, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose - Having decided that his behavior so far was unacceptable, we need to give Wikifan a chance to collaborate in an acceptable way. If you impose a topic ban right away for the rest of the year, then when it has expired, he won't have learned how to behave correctly (keep in mind that Wikifan is just 14 years old...). I think it would be far better to appoint a mentor who will watch over Wikifan's edits. Every time he violates, even in a very mild way, basic decency rules, he'll get strong warning. If the mentor concluced that Wikifan is not learning from these warnings, then a topic ban would be appropriate. Count Iblis (talk) 13:35, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

All we know is that he claims to be 14, but age should not be a factor here regardless. He was blocked for personal attacks and harassment soon after joining the project and once again about half a year later. I'm sure he's had numerous warnings along the road as well. He either knows the rules and is defying them, knows the rules and can't help himself, or sincerely has no idea he's doing anything wrong, in which case there is little hope. People who sincerely believe he can be reformed should work with him during his ban as informal mentors. That way, if they are right, he wont take his second chance for granted.PelleSmith (talk) 14:38, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Count Iblis, would you like to be his mentor? :) Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:29, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Is there any reason not to AGF about the claimed age? If not, then the fact that he is so young is grounds for more optimism about him than some of the martyrs such as Malcolm Shosha and Jayjg he has recorded on his page. They were adults and should have known better. He is still at an age where people are learning about how to behave in society. Of course, one fo the first actions of a mentor will need to be to try to get him to understand why they, (let alone Tundrabuggy,) were not hard done by. If there is a mentor found then I think that the issue of a topic ban should be left in their hands. I would see learnign how to post to IP articles in a constructive way as part of what his being in mentorship would be about. Selective supervised posting to a small number of pages might be part of that.--Peter cohen (talk) 23:56, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Both Malcolm Schoscha and Jayjg were in fact "hard done by". Gwen Gale was gunning for Malcolm with a vengeance and would not stop, despite admonitions from senior admins, until she could do the victory dance on his skull. The weak-willed Arbcom caved to a slur&innuendo campaign (on Misplaced Pages Review) against Jayjg. --Goodmorningworld (talk) 07:51, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

How about a temporary topic ban and a formal mentorship during this time to help him develop?--76.214.144.81 (talk) 01:51, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

• Support, with disclaimer – I've been in a conflict dispute with this user; specifically, over the article 2009 Hamas political violence in Gaza. He seemed to adopt a battleground mentality in discussion, and was fiercely defensive of the content he was trying to insert. He had an obvious intention to push a view, and the article has been problematic ever since. This behavior is apparently part of a pattern. —Anonymous Dissident 13:45, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
• Ban sounds reasonable. For those saying "no, wait, let's mentor", this suggestion doesn't make much sense. If someone wants to mentor, sure, they can go right ahead, but this needs to be done concurrent with a topic ban, not instead of a topic ban. We're primarily a project to write an encyclopedia, not a project to teach children to write an encyclopedia. Teaching is nice but content comes first. Friday (talk) 13:49, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
  • As usual, Friday is the hammer hitting the nail on the head. → ROUX ₪ 04:00, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

• Comment per nableezy. Is this really a vote? Very peculiar here how so many editors with opposing views of WF125 have showed up to annihilate him. Was this discussion published somewhere or canvassing done to verify his destruction? --85.250.122.62 (talk) 22:28, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, a cabal! Or perhaps he has been disruptive to a larger segment of the community for an extended period of time across multiple noticeboards?--76.214.144.81 (talk) 04:25, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Alternative proposal

(Something went wrong when I posted this below, it now appears on wikifans talk page, but not here, so I'm posting this again here.)

Why not let Wikifan edit the articles on Israel/Palestine on one day of the week only? This will cause him to make edits that he thinks will stick without him being around to "protect" his edits. So, edit warring, being uncivil etc. etc. would be pointless and counterproductive. The days he can post on would be some fixed day chosen by wikifan, say, Saturday and the times are fixed in a 24 hour interval. Count Iblis (talk) 23:35, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Creative. And then he would be able to sandbox all he wanted in his userspace, right? I'm not sure what he'd think of it though. Awickert (talk) 00:32, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Comment section from Talk:Wikifan12345

This section is set up to allow Wikifan12345 to comment on the ANI discussion while blocked, per his request, and is transcluded from a subsection of his user talk page. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:10, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Archives

/Archive 1, /Archive 2, /Archive 3 /Archive 4 /Archive 5 /Archive 6 /Archive 7 /Archive 8 /Archive 9 /Archive 10

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I made this for you.

WTF

I editing rarely so did notice your predicament until right now. How did a sock puppet get to you? --Shuki (talk) 18:07, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

User:Sol Goldstone filed the last successful AE that ended in a timed topic ban and he/she ended up being a sockpuppet though I was unaware until months later. I'm quite certain Jim Sukwutput is not a sock puppet. Like Cptnono said I was "asking for trouble." I'm just glad my last contribution to the area of conflict was a self-revert. A timely edit. Thanks for the message Shuki. Wikifan 08:59, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Hey

Just popped in to see what's going on and saw this. Time off might not be such a bad thing. Everyone needs a break. In the meantime, edit productively in other subject areas. I’ve always thought highly of you as an editor. Would be a shame to lose such a valuable contributor. Best,--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 17:43, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I second the two up above. You got screwed even though you were asking for trouble. I still think that second revert was borderline but hopefully strict enforcement on you will set a precedent (oh wait, it isn't since Supreme Deliciousness is still editing). But I have already sent you an email so you know that I think it doesn't matter. I don't support Israel in all things but I know that they will win off Misplaced Pages and that is what matters. Maybe they shouldn't but they will. Cptnono (talk) 06:41, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

And I have requested an enforced break for myself. I simply am bored of this. After seeing a good game, having some drinks, or even getting some pussy I find myself coming on here and yelling at Arabs. It isn't healthy. Screw it. They don't need us. They will still be stuck and I personally get a kick out of it.Cptnono (talk) 07:32, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

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Please consider

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It's a quote from the source, not my voice. Wikifan 07:37, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

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Proposed deletion of Gabriel Cadis

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Red link in AfD link (your comment in the Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Gabriel Cadis)

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ITN

based on Misplaced Pages:In_the_news/Candidates#Nigeria_attacks, you could mark it ads "ready"(Lihaas (talk) 23:11, 21 January 2012 (UTC)).

Norwegian C-130 Hercules plane crash

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Smile!

A smile for you You’ve just received a random act of kindness! 66.87.0.48 (talk) 13:53, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

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Adam Yauch

I see you have twice added an ethnic category to this article on a recently dead person. As WP:BLP also applies to the recently dead, you would have to be sure to conform to WP:BLPCAT when adding such categories to this article. This entails finding good references that Yauch self-identified with this ethnicity, then attaining a consensus at article talk that this was worth adding to the article. Let me know if you need any help. --John (talk) 22:03, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

All right I will address this in talk. I was not the only one who restored the tag. Wikifan 22:37, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Jeremy Piven ‎

Please stop adding unreferenced or poorly referenced biographical content, especially if controversial to articles or any other Misplaced Pages page. Content of this nature could be regarded as defamatory and is in violation of Misplaced Pages policy. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. --John (talk) 21:11, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Josh Groban

Funny that you should mention Josh Groban. He has quite an interesting "interfaith" background in that not only was his father Jewish, but his maternal grandmother had a Jewish father (and a non-Jewish mother). And they all ended up Christian. Anyway, while I don't want to get involved in these discussions myself, I will say that there are sources where Piven says he is Jewish, i.e. this, and that John uses the term "ethnic categories" on the talk page of Jeremy Piven, even though BLPcat does not cover ethnicity, and in fact, the proposal to add ethnicity to BLPcat was not passed through. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 21:47, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

It was just an example. I am quite disturbed John is going around and removing these categories unilaterally when they have been in place for quite some time unchallenged. I don't considered myself qualified as someone experienced in BLP disputes, and I don't want to be reverting John's edits at this point. What do you suggest? Wikifan 23:12, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

You really can't do much other than continue to provide opposition. Certainly with Piven, you have a source where he says that he is Jewish, and John's claim that BLPcat has anything to do with ethnicity categories is totally false. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 23:14, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

 Brendon is here 23:58, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

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South Sudan internal conflict (2011–present) move

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Boredintheevening (talk) 13:30, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

To answer several of those questions: the ban phrasing clearly says until the end of 2009. It is temporary and the idea is that working on other topics you'll learn to respect WP policy (WP:NPA more than WP:CIVIL, but the spirit and meaning of other policies such as WP:CONSENSUS too) and fellow editors - as I wrote in my endorsement. Your response (continuing to attack one editor, and missing such key points) does little to inspire confidence. Incidentally, you ask "Are there not more appropriate and honest boards..." - yes and no. WP/ANI does this all the time. But a WP:RFC/U provides a better basis for a structured discussion of a user's behaviour, but when FOTG started one (I'd suggested it too), it failed to get an endorsement within 48 hours (possibly a stupid rule, but there it is), partly I guess because he didn't announce it here, or possibly because by then this ANI thread had evolved beyond that. Rd232 05:53, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

DanaUllman

• Courtesy link to recent discussion: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive554#User:DanaUllman

DanaUllman (talk · contribs) is behaving exactly as he did before the arbcom ban. (Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Homeopathy)

I think that one set of edits will suffice: it demonstrates his WP:IDIDN'THEARTHAT behaviour very well, where he'll accept something one moment, then bring it up as if evidence hadn't been provided to refute it shortly thereafter.

On the 30th, another user - not Mr. Ullman - asked about whether a study was withdrawn. The withdrawal had been linked a couple times in the thread, but you had to scroll down a bit, so I thought it worth pointing out the relevant sections:

From http://mrw.interscience.wiley.com/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD001957/pdf_fs.html

“

Homoeopathic Oscillococcinum for preventing and treating influenza and influenza-like syndromes Andrew Vickers1, Claire Smith2 1Integrative Medicine Service, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, New York, NY, USA. 2Weston Education Centre, King’s College, London, UK Contact address: Andrew Vickers, Integrative Medicine Service, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, 1275 York Avenue, New York, NY, 10021, USA. vickersa@mskcc.org. (Editorial group: Cochrane Acute Respiratory Infections Group.) Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews, Issue 3, 2009 (Status in this issue: Withdrawn) Copyright © 2009 The Cochrane Collaboration. Published by JohnWiley & Sons, Ltd. DOI: 10.1002/14651858.CD001957.pub4 This version first published online: 8 July 2009 in Issue 3, 2009. Last assessed as up-to-date: 19 May 2006. (Help document - Dates and Statuses explained) This record should be cited as: Vickers A, Smith C. Homoeopathic Oscillococcinum for preventing and treating influenza and influenza-like syndromes. Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews 2009, Issue 3. Art. No.: CD001957. DOI: 10.1002/14651858.CD001957.pub4. The editorial group responsible for this previously published document have withdrawn it from publication. REASON FOR WITHDRAWAL This review was withdrawn from The Cochrane Library, Issue 3, 2009 as the authors are currently unable to update it.

”

It's withdrawn. It says as much, three times. Sure, it's a little odd of a reason for withdrawing it, but it still makes it pretty impossible to include it here, when other, non-withdrawn papers exist. That people agreed with its inclusion before it was withdrawn three weeks ago is irrelevant now. Shoemaker's Holiday 19:41, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

On the 31st, DanaUllman responds to this, and a few intermittent comments:

We all seem to be a tad confused on the meaning of this "withdrawal," though the review is still listed at their website Ultimately, the homeopathy article states that there are no replications to homeopathic research, and this is now clearly inaccurate. We can cite the Cochrane Report from 2006 or 2009 or reference the Lancet's News and Notes that mentioned that the results of the British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology were clinically relevant. Whig suggested a good compromise on wording, and although I'd prefer saying something else, I can live with his suggestion. DanaUllman 00:48, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

And then today he posts:

In due respect, the Oscillo research is still very much alive on the Cochrane site: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/homepages/106568753/CD001957_standard.pdf -- It seems to be the same body of information as in the 2006 article. I cannot find evidence at their website that it has been withdrawn. Can someone else? Further, if, by chance, someone finds such a reference, we need to understand what "withdrawn" means because there has not been any new research to disprove what their previous analysis provided. Unless someone provides this information, reversion to the original reference and description is in order. DanaUllman 17:47, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

The withdrawal - with the link to the Cochrane website - was posted, he responded to this posting, and then - in the same thread where the withdrawal is posted, he claims no evidence of the withdrawal exists.

DanaUllman was banned for a year for his tendentious editing and WP:IDIDN'THEARTHAT. Further examples, perhaps requiring more quoting, can be found on Talk:Homeopathy, of him refusing to get a point, or trying to twist words into a concession that he can do whatever he wants.

Furthermore, this is exactly the same as behaviour that came up in the arbitration case, only worse: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Homeopathy/Evidence#1c:_Part_i is a discussion of Ullman insisting that the findings of a study weren't retracted, even though the authors wrote of said study in 1999:

"The evidence of bias weakens the findings of our original meta-analysis . Since we completed our literature search in 1995, a considerable number of new homeopathy trials have been published. The fact that a number of the new high-quality trials (e.g. ) have negative results, and a recent update of our review for the most “original” subtype of homeopathy (classical or individualized homeopathy ), seem to confirm the finding that more rigorous trials have less-promising results. It seems, therefore, likely that our meta-analysis at least overestimated the effects of homeopathic treatments."

Ullman claimed this wasn't a retraction as that word didn't appear. In this new situation, Ullman is claiming that the statement on the Cochrane site saying the paper is withdrawn three times doesn't mean that it's withdrawn by the Cochrane Collaboration.

Furthermore, in the middle of the Arbitration case, Ullman was topicbanned by Vassyana for insisting that Scientizzle agreed with him, despite Scientizzle telling Ullman he did not: .

Dana Ullman caused massive disruption for months with his tendentious editing last time. He has promptly returned to his past behaviour.

I would ask that he be community indef banned. Shoemaker's Holiday 19:28, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

• I'm not an admin, but I've checked his contribtutions and I endorse an indef community ban. Behavior like this is totally unacceptable. --Tenant23 (talk) 19:40, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

• Endorse indef ban as one of the editors that has to untangle all the misrepresentations of sources, and who helped in getting the first ban. At least topic ban him from anything homepathy-related, because of his huge COI as a full-time homeopath who writes books and articles saying that homeopathy is scientifically proven. Notice that all Homeopathy-related articles are under probation, so please some uninvolved admin review Talk:Homeopathy and issue a topic ban so at least we can work in peace. --Enric Naval (talk) 00:28, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

• Temporary action and note. Under the discretionary sanctions authorized by ArbCom, I am imposing a two-week ban from the homeopathy topic area across all namespaces, broadly construed, including userspace and user talk pages. This should not be construed to prohibit Dana Ullman from responding to conduct reports and complaints regarding him. Additionally, I have advised Shoemaker's Holiday about short-term repeated complaints about the same issue (the last ANI closed barely a week ago) and about his failure to inform Dana Ullman of either thread. The apparent battlefield mentality on both sides is highly disruptive to the project. The topic ban is meant to be a temporary measure, thus its short duration. If Dana Ullman cannot accept the problematic nature of his approach and/or is unwilling to focus on other areas where he does not get carried away, I regretfully endorse a community ban. I would consider this his last chance to reconsider and reflect on his conduct. I do not expect endless last chances to be extended, as we have seen so many other times (including for this editor). If necessary, I will utilize the discretionary sanctions to impose the maximum one year block in order to prevent further disruption to the wiki. --Vassyana (talk) 03:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

• As far as my current understanding goes, this is a substantially different situation from the previous one involving the word "retraction". Take the following with a grain of salt because I am simply repeating what came out in the discussion on the homeopathy talk page and have not tried to confirm it independently (I'm a bit handicapped by traveling): The old case was about the authors of a study later saying that the study was probably wrong. Whether they used the word "retract" or not, that's clearly a valid reason not to use the study. The present case is about a study that appeared in the "Cochrane library". Apparently this is a repository for up-to-date, high-quality medical studies. If the authors are unable to publish a new version of their study every X years, then it is removed from the library. This is what happened here. The authors "withdrew" the study because they cannot keep up with the literature. This is something that would not have happened if the study had simply been published in a prestigious journal of the normal kind. Note the wording "Status in this issue: Withdrawn" etc.

The lead of Homeopathy currently claims that (not: almost all of) the few positive findings of effects beyond placebo have not been replicated. If I understand things correctly that's not technically true because the study from 2006 that was removed from the Cochrane libraryin 2009 for a purely technical reason indicates that one of the positive findings is replicable. In my opinion the relevant language in the lead is still OK. That's because I am generally fine with little white lies in the lead, so long as they are explained further down. But here Dana's opponents insist on both leaving the lead as it is and not even mentioning the caveat in the body. That's at least borderline disingenuous, and it seems odd to take Dana's ineffective attempts to get the situation changed as a reason for a ban.

If you want to ban Dana because he is an undiplomatic, ineffective advocate of homeopathy who, instead of causing the changes to the article that he desires, merely brings out the worst in his opponents, then by all means do so. But don't pretend it's for a different reason that makes no sense. Hans Adler 05:19, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

• (ec)To be explicit, my imposition of the ban is simply based on recurring patterns. It is not based on any particular argument about content violations or related concerns. The plain fact of the matter is that DanaUllman's current mode of interaction, including misrepresentation and statements ignoring ignoring valid discussion points (popularly referred to as "IDIDNTHEARTHAT"), is the same scheme of conduct that lead to previous sanctions. I am saddened that he is returning to these old patterns, as his expertise and topic knowledge could be valuable. However, in order for that value to be realized, he needs to accept the impact of his conduct and make a serious course correction. --Vassyana (talk) 05:45, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

• Maybe Vassyana could be more specific. Please tell us what we should avoid in the discussion - exactly. Which behavior is disruptive so we can avoid it. Give us 2 diffs. There is a content dispute in Homeopathy -Thanks.--JeanandJane (talk) 05:49, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

• This appears to be straightforward advocacy which is discouraged by our basic conflict of interest and discussion rules. The following sections are similarly informative, with DanaUllman being obtuse (requiring another editor to puzzle out what exactly he was referring to) and appearing to represent his concerns misleadingly as a new point (the Cochrane Collaboration material has been discussed ad naseum and indeed prior to his ban DanaUlmman was involved in those discussions including about the very points he recently raised again). I know from observation that he is capable is expressing his points directly in a forthright fashion without such vague references and maquillage. Another sign that time has not changed the situation is his continual misuse of the phrase "NPOV" (such as referring to "NPOV sources"). If my point is unclear, there is no such thing as a "NPOV source". NPOV is an article measure based on the predominance of information in reliable sources, not some subjective/personal measure of objectivity or neutrality. With DanaUllman returning after such a harsh arbitration sanction, I would expect that he would take special care to familiarize himself with the expectations of our principles and practices, and especially to avoid the same patterns of conduct that lead to a ban from Misplaced Pages. Instead, he immediately soapboxed and engaged in tendentious debate. I hope this helps clarify why I have imposed the temporary topic ban while the community discusses how to move forward. --Vassyana (talk) 11:58, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
• Replying a bit more directly to the subject of your concern, it is not that difficult to avoid problematic behavior. Do not engage in general (forum-like) discussion and advocacy on Misplaced Pages. Do not misrepresent the content of reliable sources or the statements of other editors. Do not beat dead horses or mislead editors regarding the nature of discussions (such as whether they are novel or revisited). Be forthright in discussions and do not belabor discussion with vague points coupled with strong assertions of specific evidence. Follow these simple points and you will avoid the pitfalls that DanaUllman has experienced at this project. --Vassyana (talk) 11:58, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Vassyana: 1. The diff you gave shows that Dana referred to his point of view on BBC Horizon but very soon he moved to another subject and did not edit the article. Nothing else.I saw nothing else which could be problematic. Instead Ullman offered many reliable sources to discuss. 2. Lets give to Ullman some tiny credit.]

"The Cochrane Collaboration material has been discussed ad naseum" is incorrect. Just few days ago or so when Dana Ullman he was proposing to add a comment from the Lancet supporting the efficasy of OSCILL., the editors -they want him now banned, they were saying that the Cochrane review on OSC was a better source . Few hours later they discovered that it was withdrawn. That created confusion since it is still appearing in the Cochrane Library website.

You imposed the ban when we were discussing another issue : whether or not several papers and info from exceptional reliable sources (which express different views on the Homeopathy effectiveness and meta analyses) should be included in the article as you already have seen in the talk page.

Neutrality requires that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. It does not say to exclude the minority view especially in an article on the specific minority view (which according to the policy must be described in detail).4 editors dispute the neutrality of the article and you chose to ban Ullman ban upon request. The editors asked they same question : Is appropriate to exclude minority views on Homeopathy since they are published in many decent RS? Some editors say yes. You agree with this ? Is it appropriate to take a side in a content dispute and ban an editor? --JeanandJane (talk) 15:08, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I think we will have the agree to disagree on the impact and nature of DanaUllman's talk page contributions, as we obviously have very distinct perceptions of the circumstances. Moving on, if you review the history of talk page discussions in the homeopathy topic area, you will find that the Cochrane Collaboration material (including the findings in particular that DanaUllman is asserting) has been discussed on many occasions. Part of my concern is this is the same material DanaUllman was discussing (in the same tone and fashion) in the weeks leading up to the arbitration case where a full ban was imposed on him for homeopathy advocacy. Regardless, the topic ban of DanaUllman is short-term and considered a temporary measure. Discussion may lead to other uninvolved editors supporting stronger restrictions, a set of alternate editing restrictions, a full ban, or even no sanctions at all. Let us give a chance for other uninvolved admins to review the situation and comment. I'll gladly follow whatever consensus emerges. --Vassyana (talk) 20:51, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

• I rightfully have said and still assert (and Shoemaker’s quote helps to verify!) that the findings of Linde 1997 study were NOT retracted. Shoemaker even quotes directly in Linde’s 1999 article that the new evidence “weakens” his previous findings, but he clearly doesn’t “retract” his results…he simply found that they were less strong. The quote that Shoemaker provides is: “The evidence of bias weakens the findings of our original meta-analysis.” The fact that Shoemaker asserts that this quote proves the Linde “retracted” his previous findings is evidence of poor scholarship or purposeful antagonism to the subject that clouds his normally rational mind.

Further evidence of Linde’s viewpoint on this subject was his strong critique of the Shang review of research.

Shoemaker is also upset that I did not see the link that he provided that “proved” that this article was withdrawn. http://mrw.interscience.wiley.com/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD001957/pdf_fs.html -- However (!), to me, this article is not available without subscription. I could NOT make certain that this article was “withdrawn” with certainty, and further, I provided solid evidence that the 2006 article was still posted at the Cochrane site…and further, that this article was also posted in 2009, issue #2.

Since my return to wikipedia, I have not done a single “edit” of an article. I have only participated in Talk pages…and obviously, my bringing up studies in major medical journals and other RS sources is disconcerting to him. Although I know that we can all sympathize with him and his POV, we all need to make an effort toward NPOV.

The other people here who are recommending sanctions against me are the usual suspects…people who are extremely active on the homeopathy article who have a long history of blocking many even mildly positive facts or information on homeopathy. Then, there are some wiki editors who are claimly to be “uninvolved” but it just so happens that they are seemingly “new” wiki editors, despite many obvious editing contributions to complex wikipedia issues (is someone a sock here?): ]

I have been shown to be a civilized editor. I have been shown to provide important contributions to this discussion; however, just because I seem to provide RS references and facts that differ from Shoemaker, he makes the above complaint.

I believe strongly that my recent “topic ban” has been unfairly bestowed upon me, and instead, I urge Admins to evaluate those editors in the homeopathy article who are showing clear antagonism and bias to the subject and are blocking NPOV information in it. DanaUllman 05:40, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

• Endorse ban of any length, re-applied as needed. My recent experiences with him give me no confidence at all that he can be neutral about his pet subject. He'll go on indefinitely, wasting the time of other editors, if he's allowed to do so. Friday (talk) 14:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse ban from Homeopathy and related pages. Homeopathy had stabilised and was improving, but Dana has turned it into a battlefield, promoting his own work, or trying to get wikipedia articles to agree with his published work. Doesn't seem to have learned anything from his block. Verbal chat 16:51, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
• endorse ban Clearly doesn't understand WP:BATTLE. Having him edit these pahes is detrimental to the construction of an encyclopedia. JoshuaZ (talk) 20:01, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Wow, all of this antimosity against me despite the fact that I have not edited a single article, have a history of being a civil editor, and have a history of referencing high-impact medical and scientific journals. I have no intent to have wikipedia repeat anything that I've written elsewhere, even various peer-review articles and book chapters. I only have a desire to submit information that seems accurate, reliable, and up-to-date. It seems that most of the above people who want me banned have content issues with me or are friends of those who do... It is not my intention to battle (at all). My intent is to collaborate...I hope that some admins look at my recent short contributions to the Talk pages and see for yourself (and please see context too). Humbly... DanaUllman 22:11, 3 August 2009 (UTC)22:08, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

• Please do something. After a year's ban, Mr. Ullman started right back up with the identical issues (the efficacy of oscillococcinum and the 20/20 episode) that he left off with in 2008. He is unequivocally engaging in advocacy, for which he was blocked for a year by arbcom. It is clear by his statement directly above that he sees nothing at all wrong with this. Sources that he presents invariably have to be double and triple checked to be sure they say what he says they do, which they usually don't. Furthermore, dormant user (User:JeanandJane) and a new user (User:Dbrisinda), both pro-homeopathy SPAs, jumped in immediately to support Mr. Ullman and make his suggested edits to the main article. Edit warring, gross source misrepresentation, talk page filibustering, and IDIDNTHEARTHAT have ensued. The situation before his re-arrival was one of incremental and agreeable collaboration. The final straw, for me, is continuing to argue for the inclusion of a withdrawn paper, after it has been made clear that a withdrawn journal article is unusable. Topic ban him, indef him, whatever, just keep him far away from anything related to homeopathy, please. Skinwalker (talk) 00:49, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

  Oppose ban. He should be given another chance to stop has disrption, because he doesn't seem to be editing in total bad faith. -- 科学高爾夫迷(讨论|投稿) 13:31, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

• Endorse ban - this user has long since passed his use-by date. His pattern of disruptive and tendentious editing is well established. He's here to further a particular agenda, not the encyclopedia. It's time for the community to flush him once and for all. Crafty (talk) 13:36, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

• Endorse ban We are not here to give people chances, we are here to write an encyclopedia. Someone does not need to act in "total" bad faith to be disruptive. We don't need people who turn this place into a battleground. Chillum 13:34, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose indef community ban, in case it wasn't clear from my TLDR post above. This seems way out of proportion. Arguing with Dana is frustrating and his presence at the homeopathy talk page seems unlikely to improve the article. But as in the case of Dr.Jhingaadey (just look at the groundless agitation at User talk:Avathaar) some people are going nuclear because of a perceived danger from Dana that I simply can't see. I believe any perceived disruption comes from the reactions to Dana at least as much as from what he says. It's not unreasonable to ban such an editor per putting the encylopedia above everything else. I believe the German Misplaced Pages might do it like this. But here? I am not currently aware of any other topic than homeopathy where a community ban would even be considered for this behaviour. Hans Adler 07:22, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

• I think the problem here is limited to the subject of homoeopathy, and probably results from Dana's advocacy and his frequent COI issues there. His failure to acknowledge COI issues may also contribute to the problem. For example here, where I had drawn attention to the fact that advocating insertion of references to "Oscillococcinum" on homeopathy so that it supported an article he has written (and which had recently been republished in several places on the web) about swine flu gave him a clear COI. He responded "why does it matter what I've written off-wikipedia, and have I ever mentioned any such writings here or linked to them?" He just doesn't seem to understand the issue here. Note also that in the diff I've linked to he also implies that he hasn't cited or linked to his own articles ("have I ever mentioned any such writings here or linked to them?") despite having done so (albeit having acknowledged that it was his own website) only a week before on the same talk page; in the past he has at least once pasted material from his own site directly into an article (see this diff and this article - incidentally the reference cited in that diff appeared to mention neither William Court Gully nor George Woodyatt Hastings, despite having been cited to support a passage about their alleged antagonism). A topic ban may be appropriate. There's probably no reason for a Misplaced Pages-wide ban (I assume that's what is meant by "community ban"); however, since all (or almost all) of his edits have been in some way connected to homoeopathy a topic ban may amount to the same thing. Brunton (talk) 13:41, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

• Yes, a topic ban on homeopathy would serve the same purpose of stopping the disruption (mind you, only under the same conditions as Vassayana's two-week topic ban above). --Enric Naval (talk) 18:11, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

• opposeIt is quite surprising that a well known writer who has served as an instructor in homeopathy at the University of California at San Francisco, and as member of the Advisory Council of the Alternative Medicine Center at Columbia University's College of Physicians and Surgeons as the chairperson for the National Center for Homeopathy's Annual Conference, and has been consulted by Harvard Medical School's Center to Assess Alternative Therapy for Chronic Illness, he is a regular speaker at universities, medical schools, pharmacy schools, and hospitals to be treated like that in this forum. This does not look good on wikipedia. Even if I understand all the editor's concerns about pseudoscience and I agree with them ( some times ) this animosity cannot be justified. Maybe his style is passionate, maybe he made some mistakes in terms of style in the past but I think skeptics and Misplaced Pages could use him to improve the Homeopathy article. I don't think we are enemies here even if we disagree some times. I m confident that a civilized solution will be found. --JeanandJane (talk) 02:46, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

• His credentials outside Misplaced Pages are irrelevant they would be relevant if he used his expertise to improve the articles in wikipedia according to policies and guidelines, which he is not doing. And they are relevant when evaluating if he is violating the WP:COI conflic of interest guideline which seems to be the case here. The reasons for the ban are his continued disruptive behaviour in-wiki, and his refusal to correct it. "He is an expert in Real Life" is not a reason for not issuing a ban unless ignoring this reason worsens the quality of articles. If he behaves in Misplaced Pages in unacceptable ways then he can fully expect to be banned from it. I remember that User:ScienceApologist was banned (temporaly) in spite of being an expert, and so was User:Peter Damian, and Dana was already banned by one year by Arbcom, and I'm sure that there are other examples. And I don't think that those bans made Misplaced Pages look bad at all, quite the contrary, it showed that we treat all users equaly. And please don't understate the disruption that he has caused in the talk pages of homeopathy-related articles. --Enric Naval (talk) 15:23, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

User:Brunton writes about my “frequent” COI, where he correctly sited the ONE time I referenced my own site AND where he referenced my acknowledgement of this and my assertion that it is not RS, along with my note that this link was to a personal email from Professor Ennis that provided some direct insight into the veracity of a discussion at hand. Brunton also expressed concern that my Talk contributions sometimes included some of the same references to research in which I provided in articles that I have written. In due respect, I did not reference or link my articles. Is he actually suggesting that a wiki editor who writes about a subject in a non-wiki source creates a COI if he or she writes about this subject on wiki, even when he doesn’t reference his own work? It seems that someone is either extending the definition of COI or simply selectively enforcing it.

By the way, I originally chose to edit under my real name because I seek to maintain high ethics in my life and being transparent seems to be one important way to maintain this standard. While I could have easily used a fake name and thereby allowing myself a lot more ability to refer to my work, this is neither my style nor ethics. If I were really trying to be an “advocate,” I would have done this. Instead, I want to be a resource to people who are working on this article.

User:Verbal asserts that my references and discussions the Cochrane Report and to a Lancet “News and Notes” article are “advocacy.”. User:Brunton then chose to question if the Lancet’s News and Notes was “peer-reviewed” , as though something written by their editors or editorial staff of this prestigious journal was suddenly not reliable because it had something positive to say about homeopathy.

What is remarkable is how offensive some editors can be to me personally and to my references to high quality research (as determined by reliable sources), and yet, no wiki editors or admins do any degree of admonishment of them. I can only imagine what would happen if I referred to an editor here as “delusional” as User:NRen2k5 did here or what User:Friday did when he created a section entitled Talk:Homeopathy#It.27s_probably_best_to_ignore_Dana_Ullman.

Because so many antagonists to homeopathy edit the article on wikipedia, it is not surprising when normally recognized reliable sources of meta-analyses are ignored when these sources report positive results from homeopathic treatment. There are many examples to give, but the Cochrane Report on the homeopathic treatment of adverse effects from conventional cancer treatment is ignored in the article My apologies for providing a “content” issue here, but my point here is that wikipedia needs more balance in many of its articles because they are dominated by just one side of the issue, while there needs to be a better effort at balance.

It is surprising how many editors who have sought to reference good research meta-analyses that have positive results for homeopathy have been sanctioned, banned, harassed, or simply overwhelmed by the larger number of antagonists to the field. I would hope that wikipedia would seek to protect some “experts” in order to create a real encyclopedia. DanaUllman 22:55, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Dana Ullman is known to misrepresent sources. Evidence of this appears on the arbitration page, but we can give

For instance, in Talk:Homeopathy#Proposed change on replication of trials, Ullman uses a note, which is not included on the journal's webpage or pubmed; a study's inclusion in a meta-analysis, and various other things to suggest that we throw out all large-scale metanalyses and work showing that homeopathy doesn't work, and replace it with his hand-picked set of studies, raising the weakest results to the status of "high-quality replicated studies". Shoemaker's Holiday Over 184 FCs served 00:27, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Shoemaker all the meta analysis are not definitive and are kind of controversial. Look at the talk page Linde's criticism to The Lancet about Shang meta analysis. Adler above says that the study from 2006 that was removed from the Cochrane libraryin 2009 for a purely technical reason indicates that one of the positive findings is replicable. Maybe he meant that? I don't know about the other papers. --JeanandJane (talk) 01:49, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

No. Dana has misrepresented sources, and also misrepresented the consensus of other editors at the talk pages, and he got that three-month topic ban when was caught red-handed misrepresenting the comment of another editor during the Homeopathy arbitration case, as seen here (at the end of the section). This is not a content problem but a behaviour problem. --Enric Naval (talk) 03:08, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Dana - What you are trying to do with Misplaced Pages is essentially to synthesize a secondary source here, from a number of primary sources. You have been constantly treading on the grey line dividing normal summarization and reporting and paraphrasing legitimate secondary and primary sources, and WP:SYNTH (and in the process, WP:BATTLE, and other related policies).

You are, for all intents and purposes, too close to the topic to be doing what you've been doing here.

If you go out and write overview secondary source / tertiary source articles in reliable publications, those can be cited in Misplaced Pages. Trying to write that material directly in here - what you've been striving to do (directly with pre-Arbcom-block, and indirectly with talk page discussion since) - is not acceptable behavior.

Fighting the secondary sources battle in Misplaced Pages is all about what WP:SYNTH and WP:BATTLE show is entirely what Misplaced Pages is not here for.

If you will not work to understand that, in good faith, then you need to leave the project. In this case, your being an expert (and as experts are, particularly opinionated) is leading to significant mis-use of the Misplaced Pages project. This type of debate is not what we're here for. Please accept that, or leave of your own accord. You will do your field much better work if you write these synthesizing opinions and reviews and overviews elsewhere and let others include those (presumably, as you're clearly an expert) reliable secondary sources here once you've published elsewere.

Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:05, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi there. Can you please clarify what do you mean? I agree though synthesis is not in our rules. For instance The lead which is not written by Dana Ullman says "Homeopathy 's efficacy is not supported by the collective weight of the scientific and clinical studies". Since meta analyses have been controversial and inconclusive with the results conflicting somehow each other ( according to our reliable sources ) this could be considered a synthesis and thus should be avoided? I m trying to understand what we should not do. Thanks --JeanandJane (talk) 04:05, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

In the case of controversial topics, we have to say something. WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE work to support WP:NPOV - we report the general community biggest consensus as our main focus, and present major alternative viewpoints commensurate with their weight in the field.

We can't avoid doing some judgement to determine what is the consensus neutral point, and how much weight, but in the case of Homeopathy (and many related fringe science/medicine topics) we have determined that the "mainstream view" is the consensus neutral point and that the proponents view, fairly reported, is the alternative. An article focused on alternatives like this should probably aim for something like 50:50 balance (the article topic is the fringe / alternative topic, after all) in terms of page space, though that will vary by topic greatly.

Dana Ullman's work, done in an external reliable venue, could then be presented neutrally and straightforwardly in the sections describing the pro-homeopathic research studies in more depth.

Done directly here, however, it's WP:OR, WP:SYNTH and bad for Misplaced Pages.

We are not denying that he's a major figure in the field - our point is, him being a major figure and being here does not shift the point of neutrality, even though he can both argue in more focused detail and depth than the average editor.

He can write synthetic overviews, in external reliable sources, and we can include them (he should not - WP:COI and WP:RS prohibit that - but others could). He can perhaps provide better, more balanced specific sources for the pro-homeopathy arguments. There are lots of things we can do here.

But what we and he can't do here is use Misplaced Pages as the venue to synthesize new material that's original research - whether that's new primary research or new secondary source overviews and reporting. You make secondary sources out there - in reliable venues which we can verifyably find and cite. And then, we can include them.

Synthesize here bad. Synthesize elsewhere in RS, then report on what RS said elsewhere, good. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:30, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. As an introduction : I was looking to determine if Homeopathy is a fringe belief and I could not find a reliable source which states it. In the contrary, I found a reliable source BBC which states "Homeopathy isn't some wacky, fringe belief." No skeptic argued against this during the conversation. If somebody has a major reliable source which states that Homeopathy is fringe - besides the skeptics organizations, please let me know.

Homeopathy is a highly controversial topic according to our reliable sources. The mainstream scientists have not reached a strong consensus about its efficacy, if we believe again in our reliable sources: World Health Organization is attacked by the Lancet for supporting Homeopathy 's efficacy. The American Medical Association states that "The efficacy of most homeopathic remedies has not been proven.". The early meta analyses are positive but not fully conclusive and definite, some others negative and positive and the recent Lancet meta analyses are negative but its results strongly criticized by other mainstream sources (with letters published in the Lancet and papers at the J Clin Epidemiol.

Meanwhile very notable Homeopaths have published their criticism for the latest meta analyses. Currently excluded from the article!

The main problem is that some of the sources have been excluded and the article reports that the mainstream consensus is that Homeopathy is unsupported by the collective weight ...... which is as you see above at least inaccurate according to the our RS.

I believe that Ullman tries to convince the other editors to use all the RS about Homeopathy's efficacy and not only the negative ones. And also to include the minority view in the article which is currently excluded for instance Fisher's article/J Clin Epidemiol.paper.

I did not see any synthesis from his part but maybe I have to look more for this. If you have seen something please provide a diff so I can also read it.--JeanandJane (talk) 05:23, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Allstarecho

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

RfAR

Since the level of spite and nastiness is increasing, but the utility of the discussion here is practically nil, perhaps its wise to just stop here? Nathan 17:15, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Seeking advice on user that is "profiling" voters in a poll

I'm helping to moderate the Ireland naming project, and based on the project members' desires, they felt that a single-transferable vote poll would be the best way to resolve the issue, accepting to be bound by its results. The Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/Poll on Ireland article names started recently, advertized in relevent places including VPP and CENT, and some users are already trying to compile data, something I've discouraged, but not going to stop. However, one user, User:Sarah777, has decided to create a tally that, based on what she can figure out from the voters' pages, if they are Irish or British. This is due to her believe that one option on the poll is heavily British-nationalistic against Ireland, and believes there to be a systematic bias for that. Whatever she believes is fine, but what is not acceptable, to me and apparently to others, is the post-vote profiling; two users at least, after discovering this poll, have removed their vote as they don't want to be profiled.

This, personally, is a serious matter (it's not quite a personal attack outright, but it walks and talks like one), and I tried to remove her polling results but she has since replaced them . I've warned her to not continue the profiling summary, but she appears to be intent on continuing this.

Is there any action that can be taken on this? The issue itself would fall outside of what the ArbCom case covered, and the timing is a bit more critical if people are scared away by voting. --MASEM (t) 19:20, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

A tally ethnically or nationally profiling voters is clearly completely inappropriate for the talk page or anywhere else. The fact that it is has been tolerated for this long is just a testament to how far the entire Ireland "collaboration" has strayed from the norms of Misplaced Pages process and reality in general. Guest9999 (talk) 20:06, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I asked you not to remove my table without discussing it (as you did). I did not say you I will keep restoring them if, after discussion you persist in removing them. I said that would be censorship; it would deprive voters of vital information about how "Republic of Ireland" is maintained as the status quo because of the votes of British editors, in the face of opposition from an overwhelming number of editors from the sovereign state. If you still remove my spreadsheet, so be it. But you will have employed censorship and you will de-legitimise the ballot. Sarah777 (talk) 20:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

An editor has claimed that this has been done before without sanctions being imposed and is looking for the diff. He claims it happened on the Macedonia name change. BigDunc 20:16, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Frankly, I dont know why it matters if it was done before. It's clearly wrong and represents a fault in the earlier decision, not allowing it now. Also, the mthods for determining nationality are looking at user pages. I could change mine right now to say im whatever and throw off the whole thing. --M 20:21, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

(ec) It matters when editors are calling for a 12 month block. BigDunc 20:30, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, indeed, I did such a "profiling" tally in the Macedonia case, and I stand by it – in that case, the very root of the problem was indeed a situation of permanent, very obvious entrenched frontlines along national affiliations, and it was an important point to demonstrate why a vote, as a vote, couldn't work (remember that votes are evil). I strongly maintain that in that particular case it was an important and legitimate thing to do. If, of course, the participants in the present issue have already decided that a vote is what they want, then such an analysis may make little sense. In any case, I do not share the moral panic in seeing such an analysis done, in principle. In many domains of ethnically-dominated contentious hotspots, nationally entrenched editing frontlines are a plain reality, and a serious problem, and the affiliation of individual editors with this or that side is usually quite plainly known to every insider. We cannot solve such a problem if we aren't allowed to even speak about it, naming and describing the frontlines. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:27, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure how anybody can be imtimadated on Misplaced Pages. Anyways, if the profiling is so distubing, would it be alright if Sarah kept it on her userpage? GoodDay (talk) 20:32, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

The trouble is Future Perfect, Sarah is not just pointing out in a fair way nationalities in a simple list as i seem to recall you did (when reading about that), she is making clear accusations of bias by British editors in an attempt to mislead and impact on the vote. The fact 2 people have withdrawn their vote (especially the first who didnt put the main option Sarah opposes as his first choice) shows its a problem all though i do agree a 12 month ban is way too extreme, banning her from contributing on the ballot/talk page whilst the vote is on going would prevent futher trouble. BritishWatcher (talk) 20:36, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

What is misleading about what Sarah has done? BigDunc 20:41, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

If several have withdrawn, maybe she's onto something. Baseball Bugs carrots 23:34, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

(to GoodDay)The fact that two people have withdrawn their votes, and I just got a talk page message from a third user who doesn't want to vote until Sarah's tally is stop, implies there are people feeling intimidated by Sarah's spreadsheet. Based on the Macadonia naming issue, this appears to be closer to WP:OUTING (though Sarah does not attempt to identify who are her Irish votes and British votes). That's still a troubling factor. --MASEM (t) 20:41, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Would it be alright for her to keep her 'tally' at her userpage? GoodDay (talk) 20:49, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

(to Fut. Pref)I looked at the poll you had done, Future, and my conclusion from looking at everything was that that poll was just part fuel of the fire that launched the ArbCom case. Here, we've past the ArbCom case, in its resolution, and we should be expecting a higher decorum from those involved. Of course its obvious that there are ethnic ties with how people are voting, but what's important here is that this poll is opened to all wikipedians, not just the select few involved with the Macadonia naming straw poll. As I've tried to identify here, we're coming (as agreed upon by parties involved) to a solution that is voted on by Wikipedians, not Irish, British, nor non-aligned voters, and the need to profile voters on a wiki-wide poll seems troubling as opposed to the case if we were only doing a straw poll among project members. --MASEM (t) 20:41, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Let me just clarify that I haven't actually looked into the present context in any detail, so I can't speak to the merits of the present case. As I said, I might agree that in a situation where a "vote" (not a "!vote") has already been agreed on as the appropriate mechanism, it should probably be understood that everybody's contribution will be counted on the same basis no matter what happens, so analysing the ethnic make-up of the poll may serve little good. Incidentally, I'll also put on the record that in the Macedonia case we found that the ultimate solution, which proved fairly successful, was to have something that was very explicitly not a vote. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:54, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Two users have withdrawn there votes due to profiling - it shows wikipedia in a poor light. Action is needed. Djegan (talk) 20:47, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Endorse removal of poll. I see that if that is done Sarah777 says it will "de-legitimise the ballot" - I'm also very unhappy with this sort of pressure being put on to keep the poll. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller (talk • contribs) 20:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

The difference here is that this is a vote - an exception to WP:DEMOCRACY. Discussion has come and gone. Polling has come and gone. Edit warring has come and gone. ArbCom has come and gone. And after nine months of intense collaboration, we have agreed to have a vote that will be binding for two years. We all understood the seriousness of that. We all agreed that, "Non-trivial sanctions will be imposed for canvassing, forum shopping, ballot stuffing, sock puppetry, meat puppetry or otherwise manipulating the ballot (or attempting to do so)". How else could a vote take place?

Now, I don't believe that Sarah intended to intimidate anyone or scare anyone off. But her "spreadsheet" clearly did intimidate at least two voters (Nanonic and Andrwsc), who removed their votes explicitly to avoid being "ethnically profiled" or being "added to some POV warriors statistics".

What ever happens, the profilling must stop and voters must be allowed to cast their ballots freely and without intimidation (intentional or

otherwise). --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 20:55, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I have been referred to a previous Arbcom case where Sarah777 is restricted and "may be banned from editing any page which she disrupts by engaging in aggressive biased editing or by making anti-British remarks." I continue to seek if this is appropriate here (if Sarah doesn't do it, someone else might), but will report this aspect elsewhere. --MASEM (t) 20:57, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

It's pretty clear that this is disruptive if people are changing votes. I'd say give her one more chance to stop posting the results publically, and if she refuses, long-term block. I'd also suggest oversighting all the revisions where she referred to voters' nationality in anything close to an identifiable way. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

"oversight" - you mean delete completely from the DB? I would support that. A warning. Deleting reference to the profiling from the DB (even blanking the section I opened). And serious sanctions if she does it again/barring from the ballot page. That sounds fair to me. A block or anything else would be counter-productive for the entire WP:IECOLL project, I believe. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 21:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Instead of repeatedly talking about blocks why doesn't someone (Masem) talk to her again. You never know, this may be over before it's begun. Jack forbes (talk) 21:06, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for mentioning that interesting piece of history. I have looked at Sarah's block log and note that a permanent block was lifted last year after she agreed to mentoring. Is the mentor able to report on how her behaviour has improved from before? What I see in her current behaviour is aggressive point of view pushing. There is a clear anti-British agenda in how she is behaving even if remarks are buried in the sub-text.--Peter cohen (talk) 21:10, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

• Add me to the list of people who don't understand how this could be intimidating, and I don't see this as "clearly" or "obviously" wrong. What am I missing? Using information that other users have intentionally added to their own userpages, she's collecting information to see whether there is a possible systematic bias. Maybe it's a valid point, maybe she's full of it, and I don't see how it can be used to invalidate the poll, so why are we forbidding the on-wiki assembly of information? If you're demanding action, it's not enough to claim that people are intimidated, you need to convince people that such intimidation is actually reasonable. Is there any diff you can point to where she is actually trying to intimidate anyone? Otherwise, claiming intimidation is just another way to game to system. It seems silly that this cultural difference in preferences cannot be mentioned; while the word is overused here, forbidding the mention of it seem like censorship. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:01, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

"Is there any diff you can point to where she is actually trying to intimidate anyone?" I don't think she is doing it intentionally, but at least two voters (Nanonic and Andrwsc) removed their votes explicitly to avoid being "ethnically profiled" or being "added to some POV warriors statistics" so it is interfering with the vote (which is a binding vote, not a straw poll). --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 21:15, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Thought experiment: What if I was clearly identifiable as Irish (I'm not, except on St. Patrick's Day, when my 1/16th Irish blood kicks in), had voted in the poll (I haven't), and then retracted my vote because "it's obvious from what is happening to Sarah777 that there is ongoing harrassment of Irish voters". Would this be legitimate? No. I don't get to alter other people's behavior by just claiming intimidation. So, could someone please move beyond saying 3 users were intimidated, and explain how it's intimidation? Please? I could certainly be wrong about this, but just saying over and over "people were intimidated" isn't going to convince me. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:21, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

It's fairly irrelevant whether you, or I, can understand it. What matters is if it affects the vote, which it clearly has done. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:32, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

And I agree with Floquenbeam can I now remove my vote and claim it was because of the intimidation of Sarah by pro British editors. Will sanctions be brought against Rannpháirtí anaithnid for starting this intimidation or the constant badgering of any one who doesn't agree with the status quo. Also the myth that every editor who took part in the process agreed to this poll is a blatant lie. BigDunc 21:39, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Let's keep calm. The emerging consensus appears to be that profiling should be banned while the vote is in progress. The profiling is based on public information, and collated. Like other editors here, I don't believe the case has been made that this could be seen as "imtimidating". I believe she set out to demonstrate that a majority of primarily British editors vote one way, and a majority of primarily Irish voters vote another, and that since there are more British voters than Irish, getting things changed can be problematic. Now it's a fact that this has resulted in some editors removing their votes, but the primary issue is intent and knowledge. Did Sarah set out to imtimidate voters and could this have been foreseen? I think not. The obvious solution is to simply ban profiling while the vote is in progress, and I believe any sanctions are unnecessary. --HighKing (talk) 21:44, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes. Voter were intimidated. But I don't think Sarah set out to do so. Let's just remove the profiling (and any mention of it) - either by blanking it or deleting it from the DB. Let everyone, not only Sarah, be warned that what they write on the talk page can scare voters away - and so to be careful. No running commentaries. No statements about users who vote this way or that. No comment on the options (we have a page for that). Let's just keep the talk on that page to a minimum until September 14th and let the vote run its course all by itself. In fact, let's blank most of it except those posts that are directly related to the operation of the poll, etc.. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 21:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I certainly didn't set out to do so - nor do I think I have done so. But there is a clear and obvious attempt to intimidate Irish editors who oppose them by a tiny group of editors, including rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid, Bastun and Djegan. And this is by no means the first time in the case of the latter two. Sarah777 (talk) 22:12, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

YOU were intimidating others. Djegan (talk) 22:22, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Funny, but I'm 100% sure that the editors here are all pretty thick-skinned wrt intimidation. It's WP:OR to associate intent to Sarah's table. Consensus to stop has only recently emerged, and it has been dealt with. Blocks are not handed out as punishments, only to deter a repeat of disruptive behaviour. Sarah has already stated that although she doesn't believe that what she was doing was as bad as being made out or wrong, she has agreed to stop. Seems to me like this is done. Can we move on now? --HighKing (talk) 22:37, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, no, considering she added it to her talk page, as noted by Bastun below. Readding something multiple times while it's being explained to be against consensus and affecting the results of a vote that's taking place because nothing short of a binding vote has worked over the past year is highly disruptive. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 00:45, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

• Um, can I try and paraphrase the concern here. There is a vote (something of a unique process on WP) on matters where one user has concerns that a question or questions are skewed in such a way to underscore what they perceive to be a bias, and on the basis of the support/opposition of those wordings has concluded that there is a pro-British (I only take exception that being pro-British is being equated directly into anti Irish Nationalist sentiment; I am both the former and decidedly not the latter) sentiment regarding those who answer in one manner and a pro Irish Nationalist in responding in the other, the user has subsequently created a graph or some depiction indicating the levels of pro/anti British and pro/anti Irish Nationalist editors involved in this vote? What is the fundamental basis for this concern - that an area of political/religious/cultural dispute is being shown as having differing nationalistic backgrounds effect a large percentage of the disputants... or that non aligned editors are being placed within groupings on the basis of their responses. Seems to me that the problem lays still within the questions asked - if people are happy for the wording(s) to remain then I do not see the difficulty in someone making assumptions (and transparently publishing them) on the basis of the responses. Oh, and as for WP:Outing - I can make the same general assumptions on peoples English (or not) speaking nation of birth simply through grammer and spelling habits... to be sure. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:14, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Remove the 'spread sheet' from the Polling page. Jumpers & we're only 2 days into this. GoodDay (talk) 22:23, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Last night, Sarah accused me of canvassing (despite absolutely no evidence) - aware that that carries strong sanctions, as stated on the poll page. Today, two editors have so far removed their votes because of her profiling and one other has said s/he won't vote till she stops. (Her "profiling" is, in any case, completely inaccurate and invalid, as plenty of Irish editors have expressed some preference for using "Republic of Ireland", even if its not their first preference). Now, I'm being accused by her of intimidating voters - again without any evidence?! Not only is that blatantly untrue, I've tried helping one editor (who didn't support "Republic of Ireland" as any preference!) to fix his vote and pointed out to another (who voted first for "Republic of Ireland") that he may have got his vote wrong, going by Position statement, where he says to vote for another option. Hardly the actions of someone trying to intimidate voters to support my position... Bastun 22:47, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Ah C'mon Bastun... At this point, what purpose does bringing this up serve? This'll just notch it up again now that it seems it might actually be calming down. Sarah made it very clear on your Talk page last night that she wasn't making any accusations although (as I commented at the time) it could've been phrased better. Trying to infer that Sarah was trying to intimidate *you* would just make most of us laugh at the thought... Let's move past this. --HighKing (talk) 22:54, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

It's symptomatic, though - those who oppose her are "imposing British PoV" and must somehow be cheating... For the record though, I'd support oversight of the profiling and a ban on it recurring, but would oppose a block or ban on Sarah at this time. Reintroduction of her mentoring/civility parole may well be in order, though. Bastun 23:20, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Except - Sarah has now added the profiling to her own talkpage... Bastun 23:28, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Bastun. Please refrain from using the phrase "profiling". It is analysis, which throws sharp light on some of the pious pretence that passes for argument on Wiki. Example Chillum below: "We should be basing the results of the poll by the strength of the arguments presented, not the nationalities of those who voted." Exactly my point! I am merely illustrated that this isn't the way Wiki works in real life! A truth that some folk find impossible to accept. Sarah777 (talk) 09:21, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Whoa! Yellow card (or 2 minute penalty, or 5 yard penalty) for using "Wiki(pedia)" and "real life" in the same sentence! (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 09:49, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

OK. Would "Surreal Life" be a better expression? Sarah777 (talk) 11:31, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Since this has switched to a democratic process, rather than a consensus process, is the obvious answer to follow the principles of the democratic process - ie the ballot is secret and the results are not published until the ballot closes. That would get rid of any risk of intimidation or accusations of same. Surely a system where votes were emailed to a neutral admin or group of admins using a mail redirect, who would independently verify the outcome once the polls closed, would be preferable to the hybrid process ongoing at the moment.Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:04, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

There is no way we would of got to the voting phase if it was a secret ballot, that would of concerned people from all side and its not hard to imagine they would consider it invalid. One thing that would of been helpful is if people couldnt change their vote at any point in the 42 day voting period. This clearly gives a reason to try and encourage people to change their mind. Sarah is doing that, by assessing peoples nationalities, claiming certain ones are pushing POV and making out that British people should not be allowed to vote. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:09, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

We should be basing the results of the poll by the strength of the arguments presented, not the nationalities of those who voted. I would think this would be evident. Chillum 00:49, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Chillum and all the others who expresed similar ideas above. Editors should be judged by the quality of their rationales not by their identifiers. This is a point I made many times before and during ARBMAC2. Having said that I think that Sarah should not be sanctioned if she does not continue this profiling in project space. Dr.K. logos 01:07, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

agreed. (I've not spoken on this issue before) We do not decide issues depending on how many of each view are present on Misplaced Pages, but on the more general question of the consensus of all of us who care about the issue. This can be a fine distinction sometimes, but it's an important one. If 90% of the people here were Irish nationalists , that still would not mean that their view would prevail as against NPOV. To explicitly divide people by nationality is an obvious obstacle to the proper settling of disputes and to the very basis of cooperative work here. But it's enough that it stop. DGG (talk) 04:04, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The Ireland Collaboration process is and was a joke. We should have be basing the discussion on the strength of the arguments presented, however it was based on numbers. I did try my best to have a source/referenced and policy based discussion, but all some editors were intrested in was a vote. I do agree with Chillum and Tasoskessaris that on this project decisions should be based on the strength of the arguments presented and be judged by the quality of their rationales, but lets be honest, that's not going to happen. All I'd suggest is editors just read the discussion that was had on including references with editors rationales to get the idea. This vote undermines the project, and Sarah just hit at the underlining issue. IMO Masem's report is an insult having had to deal with them on the project and the BS they ignored during the process. Diff's can be provided, editors just need to ask! --Domer48_'fenian' 08:11, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Once everyone agreed to a vote, the process should have moved to democratic rules - secret ballot, only one vote per individual and no interim results. Otherwise it is a recipe for accusations of intimidation, and for people deliberately setting out to skew or nullify the outcome by informed tactical voting, both of which have happened - with the second option being openly set out on the discussion page and nobody apparently seeing a problem with it.Elen of the Roads (talk) 08:52, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Everyone didn't agree to the poll Domer48, Tfz and myself are some that didn't and were in favour of a policy based approach not force of numbers. BigDunc 09:00, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

That is true. But in the end it still comes down to a vote; thus the imposition of POV names on Ireland-related articles. That is how "RoI" has remained the status quo against both the view of the majority of Irish editors, against WP:NPOV, WP:COMMONNAME and common sense. When it comes down to it what Wiki pompously calls "NPOV" is merely majority rule. As in the case of WP:CIVIL we will spout any old intellectually challenged gobbledygook to avoid a rigorous rules-based approach. And we have hordes of Admins loose some of whom more resemble a lynch mob than a police force. IMHO. Sarah777 (talk) 09:37, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

BigDunc: I don't remember anyone else not agreeing to it, apart from the three of ye. Policy-based approach, fine, except as pointed out on the project page, the policies often conflict. So the overwhelming consensus was to use a PRSTV ballot. This was entirely in line with the Arbcom decision. Domer48, you were even insisting on sources to state that the name Ireland was ambiguous in the first place(!) and were admonished for disruptive editing in the lead-up to the poll. Despite your claim above, several of the Position statements that voters are asked to base their preferences on are indeed sourced. Ireland Collaboration/Poll on Ireland article names/Position statements/Rannpháirtí anaithnid Ireland Collaboration/Poll on Ireland article names/Position statements/ScolaireIreland Collaboration/Poll on Ireland article names/Position statements/Valenciano (It's interesting that Sarah's one, not containing any sources, get's endorsed by Bigdunc...). All of that aside - we are where we are. The project has decided, per Arbcom's remedy, to use a community-wide, binding, poll. Whether or not it was Sarah's intention, her practice of profiling has resulted in the withdrawal of at least two votes and at least one editor has said they won't vote if profiling is ongoing. That is disruptive to the process. If Sarah will stop adding it to Misplaced Pages, including the project pages and userspace, grand - we can move on. I'm sure she can keep the figures in Notepad and announce to the world how biased it's all been if "Republic of Ireland" "wins", or quietly say nothing if anything else does, when the whole process is over. Bastun 10:09, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm still trying to understand exactly *what* is intimidating about it? Sarah is only using public information. She's not "outing" anybody using off-wiki info. If people don't want to be profiled, then stop sticking flags on your user pages. --HighKing (talk) 10:53, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

And I also don't see the harm in Sarah having it on her own user page, and discussions on it are kept away from more public places like the poll page. I mean, she published a picture of how to construct an atomic bomb on her page last week, and that wasn't censored, yet now there's editors demanding *oversight* on the table she created. I'm starting to look around to try to spot the hidden camera ... am I on TV here? --HighKing (talk) 10:57, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

While I personally can't see the problem with it, if there is even the slightest suggestion that it's affecting the voting process then it should be removed from the polling page until after the vote has taken place. After that Sarah and anyone else should be free to provide whatever analysis they wish though personally I can't see the point (there's systematic bias on WP? British editors outnumber Irish ones? No shit!) An agreement by Sarah not to post the data until then should be sufficient to close this. Valenciano (talk) 11:24, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's already gone from the polling page. If, as you say, the table won't "discover" any shockingly new information, there's even less reason for all this fuss... --HighKing (talk) 11:30, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

This is not simply about effecting the poll. It is about the inappropriateness of sorting users by nationality, which I think is worth a fuss. Chillum 14:54, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

This reached pretty absurd levels during ARBMAC2. Here is an example of nationality declarations during a discussion. Dr.K. logos 16:31, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

That was voluntary, and still fairly contentious if I recall correctly. At least with voluntary declarations no one is mis-categorised. Cheers, TFOWR 16:38, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, no one is miscategorised if done voluntarily, but nationality declarations should not be used in any form, voluntary or not. Plus a "voluntary" activity can easily become coercive. I am being brief here on purpose. I have discussed these points extensively in other pages before and I don't want to open up yet another lengthy debate here. Cheers. Dr.K. logos 18:13, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Why not? This is not a secret ballot. And if nationalities are taking sides, it could suggest POV-pushing that needs to be addressed. From what I've seen in past discussions, the ones who oppose it, often oppose it precisely because it reveals information that could bring their POV into the spotlight, which they don't want. Baseball Bugs carrots 18:18, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Using ad-hominem, editor-based arguments will not advance your position Bugs and it is precisely the type of argument that I have, unfortunately, seen so many times. Let's call it the evil, underground nationalist POV pusher argument. It presupposes that editors of a given nationality will surreptitiously try to push their POV by not admitting their background or by trying to obscure it. To which I reply: Are people so dense that they have to know the nationality of someone to detect their POV? Can they not just simply read their comments and decide if these comments are POV-driven or not? Do they need to see the passport of the editor to decide if the guy is a POV-pusher? Don't they have analytical skills? Of course your type of argument also presupposes that anonymous, not easily identifiable users automatically tell the truth if they declare they are from an uninvolved nationality. Never mind if this can be verified or not. Like I said before: There is no substitute for WP:AGF and analysing the contributions and not the editors. Ad-hominem-based contribution evaluations must stop. They are anti-intellectual, lazy and contrary to WP:AGF and thus they run counter to the very spirit of Misplaced Pages. Dr.K. logos 21:06, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Posting a true fact about someone does not constitute an attack. The only ones who would oppose it, most likely have a guilty conscience or have something to hide. You can put the American flag right next to my name anytime you like. Baseball Bugs carrots 00:23, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Baseball Bugs, would you support profiling along all lines? If more users displayed their race, should we take that into account on disputes over articles on people from minorties or other racial disputes? Should peoples religions be counted for religious debates? Shall we go around counting how many openly gay wikipedians contribute to a dispute relating to homosexuality??

Sarah was not just presenting a friendly little chart on peoples nationalities. She was cleary trying to mislead people into thinking a certain option is "British POV" being imposed on the people of Ireland by British editors. If the same was done for races, would we all be ok with: "15 white people voted for this.. 13 Blacks voted against this.. there for the whites are clearly biased?" because that is what she was doing.

Personally it didnt bother me, i found it rather amusing. However voters can change their vote at any point in the next 38 days, if the vote couldnt be changed it may not be such a big deal. 2 people withdrew their votes, thats enough to justify it being removed from the talk page and avoided until after the results are in. Anyway this all seems to be over now, everyones moved on and the spreadsheet is gone from the talk page which is the main thing. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:47, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

The more you know about the voters, the better informed of a decision you can make. So, in general, YES - especially where it reveals an apparent pattern of "taking sides". Baseball Bugs carrots 17:49, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

It's been pointed out to you before. Why state that Sarah was clearly trying to mislead people" when you've acknowledged that she wasn't and she also states she wasn't. Please AGF, this is not the first time you've been pulled up for spreading innuendo. --HighKing (talk) 00:56, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry if i was not clear in my comment.. Sarah describes the certain option as the British option, and says its British POV. I consider the claim "Republic of Ireland is British POV" misleading considering its was created by the Irish government as their country's official description, and its used often by the Irish government and parliament. BritishWatcher (talk) 01:03, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

ploughing through this thread it reminds me of Espeanza. But a weird esperanza, full of bad faith and socks and hate and point of view and cite swapping, and accussations of socking. Why are nationalist articles so toxic to all involved? Remember Civility (talk) 11:55, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Because nationality is contentious. Quite often leads to people getting put in coffins in real life, and has at least a few thousand centuries. Unsurprising that it would be contentious on Misplaced Pages, where long and bloody wars have been fought over how someone's surname is spelt in the past.

For what it's worth, IMO you'd have to be actively feigning ignorance not to be able to work out why prfiling is bad here. The entire point of said profiling is to attempt to discredit the opinions of any editors who are British. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 14:00, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Those who are voting from a neutral point of view need have no fear of so-called "profiling". Baseball Bugs carrots 17:51, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I strongly object to an attempt to profile me from information on my user page. I don't know if I've been profiled, but if so I expect I've been categorised incorrectly, and certainly would have been categorised incorrectly a few weeks ago. Dougweller (talk) 18:15, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

@Chris Cunningham: Profiling is a method of ad hominem argument which is is called "ad hominem circumstantial". Please see the Ad hominem article. It is a form of logical fallacy. And it does not apply only to British editors. It applies to anyone depending on the circumstances. Dr.K. logos 19:51, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

@Doug: Doug you have expressed, almost verbatim, an older opinion of mine around the time of ARBMAC2. (I am referring to your first sentence). Dr.K. logos 19:53, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Harassment

Ok, I am seriously tired of this and I think I will stop editing here. One editor, Ratel accused me of being a sockpuppet at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations/Marbehraglaim, for what I think less than sincere reasons. Bad enough, but now another editor Noloop is now stalking me. He first came to the sockpuppet investigation, strange enough that he found it. But then he also showed up at this deletion discussion, Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watch_(2nd_nomination). Bad enough that he is following me, but he is also constantly adding a comment that I am an accused sockpuppet to the deletion discussion. Note that none of the other alleged sockpuppets accounts has shown up at this deletion discussion, so there is absolutely no reason to harass me that way. Pantherskin (talk) 01:26, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Wow, not enough that I have to deal with a stalker, now Ratel has left this nice message on my talk page , calling me a sick puppy and accussing me of harassing him. And this message on the talk page Roald Dahl, accusing me to be identical to an alleged mentally disturbed stalker and to be a psychopath. And to be sure, he makes it clear that checkuser cannot prove my innocence, so there is not even a way for me to clear my name from this kind of smearing. Pantherskin (talk) 02:51, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I am going to drop him a note on his talk page about this thread. --Tom (talk) 03:15, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

• Funny that this case is now opened. I have just finished writing to an admin (unnamed for now) about the fact that I am being stalked by a user and have been for about a year. Here's some of the text of the email:

The involved editor is User:Collect (see his RfC to learn what sort of person he is). Collect is a clever person, a sophisticated user of wikipedia, who knows how to play all the rules to his advantage. He is expert at creating sockpuppet accounts using different IPs. When not opposing me as himself, which he has done on numerous pages, always following me to the pages in question, he otherwise appears as a new single purpose account to oppose me vehemently and with a sophisticated use of terminology and knowledge of policy that immediately makes it plain that he is not a new user. I'll give just two examples of many:

Pantherskin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) fighting me on the page: Roald Dahl
Scramblecase (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) who opposed me on the page IC/PBS

Given that checkuser will not work on this sort of IP-morphing, obsessed, mentally-disturbed user, what am I to do? I think this is about as bad as the editing experience in wikipedia can get.

I'm sure this will eventually be brought to an end when some admin finally takes an interest. It's just a pity that I cannot find the time to smack this cockroach the way he deserves. ► RATEL ◄ 03:42, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

• • Ratel, there is no conceivably way that calling other editors cockroaches will help things. Regardless of the sockpuppet situation, I think it would be reasonable to consider a block to prevent your further violation of NPA--there are at least 5 instances in the material above. DGG (talk) 03:51, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Just following WP:SPADE here, DGG. I have honestly been stalked by this user for a very long time, with almost daily subtle harassment. It's a miracle I'm not using 4-letter words. I don't think wikipedia is set up to handle this sort of situation, frankly. ► RATEL ◄ 04:35, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Assuming that this mysterious stalker exists, how does that gives you the right to attack and accuse uninvolved editors? Attacking Maybe you should consider that not every editor that opposes your edits is identical with this mysterious stalker (again assuming that this stalker exists). I know for myself that I am not, but I guess in your book there is no way to prove that, because as you said he is an "IP-morphing, obsessed, mentally-disturbed user". Pantherskin (talk) 05:05, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

• • • I'd endorse such a block. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:55, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

One shouldn't wonder about new previously uninvolved editors showing up if one or someone else posts an RFC on an article. The fact that previously uninvolved editors showed up at the article was taken by Ratel as evidence for them being sockpuppets, and is now taken as evidence that they are identical with this mysterious stalker. For the record, I edited previously as an IP, but then registered. That is NOT sockpuppetry, and as the contributions history clearly shows I never pretended to be a different editor nor did I voted twice, nor did I continue to edit from my IP adress after I registered. Pantherskin (talk) 04:08, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

For the record, Ratel has made repeated claims of stalking and sockpuppetry on me. As an example of his civility, I proffer, " I regard this as either insanity or a deliberate attempt to intimidate me. I think mentoring or a slap on the wrists will do little to cure this person of his/her ailments", "Think you're being stalked? Not a nice feeling, is it?" with a comment of "pot / kettle", how he regards admins at "My "gleeful goal" (read: hard work) to balance hagiographies notwithstanding, I shall seek another admin to give oversight. I would appreciate it if you would bow out of this now, since I have assured you I shall not proceed to edit the page without admin input to possibly controversial material" and "Does not apply. I am not "repeatedly" seeking other opinions, simply one other opinion, since I believe you have an animus towards me based on your association with Collect and based on your mistaken understanding of my motives" , attitudes towards others "== Bullying comment: potent Personal Attack by Flowanda == Are you making a personal attack on me here by suggest I may be bullying this user (himself an assertive lawyer, by the way he uses legal language and keep disclosing the contents of court documents)? " ,,, his behaviour at SPI at , yet another SPI for him at "The abovementioned suspected socks all chimed in on a RfC at Talk:Roald Dahl and at a related debate at WP:CCN almost simultaneously and in sequence, all with the same arguments, and they have no substantial history outside this issue other than the puppet master, Marbehraglaim" .

has Ratel at WQA -- "The stalking by you continues, Collect. Even Gwen Gale has noted your pursuit of me, so take care. To Bwilkins, the other editor has called me "spiteful", claimed I am defaming the subject with no basis, claimed I threaten people because I posted a NPA warning to his talk page, sneers at perfectly valid edits (such as using ), mentions me pejoratively rather than the edits or how to improve the page in every comment he makes .... yet this is "fine"? So that's the last time I'll come here for help ... totally bloody useless. You people are farking up wikipedia. I hope you are proud." Though Ratel never gave one iota of evidence for his claims, as "Indeed, the removal of a warning template from your own talkpage is tacit acceptance of the warning. None of the diff's appeared to be anywhere close to being contrary to WP:NPA in the least. Posts like "You don't like it, tough" sounds like some WP:OWNership issues, and "you don't have a clue" are indeed contrary to WP:NPA. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:29, 17 July 2009 (UTC)" demonstrates.

For icing on the cake "Despite all the hot air from 2 editors here —both of whom have admitted to being SPAs, one of whom is involved in a content dispute with me (where I am right and he is wrong, as shall soon become obvious), and the other of whom I maintain (despite the predictably unsuccessful checkuser) is a sock of Collect (himself now the subject of an extensive RfC)— no real evidence as to my awfulness has been presented. On the other hand, I can point to the absurdity of accepting that the sock Scramblecase is a new editor (pah-leeeeze! I've seen many new editors arrive on the scene and not one has shown Scramblecase's knowledge of rules, formatting of responses, and aggressiveness), and having been Collect's interlocutor for a few weeks I can recognize the same style and diction a mile away." One more SPI worked on by Ratel -- and he is batting zero for a very good reason <g>. contains such gemns as "fellated" "brown nose" "obsequious lickspittle" "weasely wikilawyer" "I believe he has an anxiety spectrum disorder, in the OCD range, that underlies his constant edit warring, so wikipedia is really just a place for him to act out, a form of therapy. So shame on the editors above who endorsed Collect because he's rightwing like you are, even when you know he's bad for wikipedia, and shame on the admins below who are playing the "hear no evil, see no evil" card. Shame on you. Something MUST be done about deranged editors like Collect, for the good of the project, or eventually the project will be swamped with every obsessive, obstructive, quarrelsome, querulous, no-life nutcase living in his parents' basement." and so on. In short, I think Ratel does commit the sins ascribed to him above. Collect (talk) 12:33, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

See also , , "Please note that Scramblecase — see contribs — is an obvious SPA started up specifically to make this attack on me here. I am currently in a tense confrontation with a highly tendentious editor with a long history of obsessive edit warring on the Drudge Report Talk page, and (s)he has decided to expand the attack on me by stalking and starting up this distracting rearguard action. Checkuser probably won't help because this is a sophisticated user who knows how to use proxies and/or the local library's computers to make this attack. Suggestion: ignore or block this SPA. Thanks." "Oh good, then by all means look into it. Collect caused a source document in Britannica to be changed during a dispute. The change was enacted by an editor at Britannica called Canterbury, and I mentioned that on the Talk page while complaining about the lack of ethics involved in changing source documents. I also wrote to Britannica (Canterbury) urging them not to accept Collect's edit and directing them to the relevant talk page. They then wisely reverted. That sums it up. I have not outed Collect, I have not broken any rules, but I'll wager he has." abnd so on. More if needed, but I trust the issues are now quite clear. Thanks! Collect (talk) 13:34, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

• Collect, Scramblecase and Pantherskin appear  Unrelated by checkuser; there is no evidence of trickery and they appear to live hundreds of miles apart. Some kind of sophisticated trickery can not be absolutely ruled out but seems unlikely based on the available evidence. Thatcher 01:08, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Unlikely? Since I have made personal information available to several admins (including Lar and others), and I have had a consistent presence online now for 27 years, I regard the claims of sockpuppetry as vile in the extreme. I believe this is now up to 4 checkusers made on me as a matter of fact. Collect (talk) 02:19, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

In response to Ratel saying Collect has a mental illness, Collect says Ratel has a mental illness. My comments about the way Ratel is conducted the dispute here seems to apply more widely. The subthread below seems to indicate similar. I propose a 48 hr block on Collect, Ratel, Noloop, & Smashville and Pantherskin, in the hope of preventing more of this; the question of who if anyone is in the right would seem to belong elsewhere.

Dear anonymous, I have never made any comment at all concerning Ratel personally in any such vein, and would appreciate that such a charge not be leveled at me. Thanks! Collect (talk) 16:14, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Pantherskin is very clearly a troll. I'm starting to wonder how these sorts of things can ever really be dealt with by admins. In order to have a clear sense of Pantherskin's operations, you have to have built up a history with him, so that there is an awareness of the context in which things occurred. It is hard to document this kind of thing in a "report." Unlike User:Webhamster, who just routinely tells everybody to "fuck off" and "go fuck yourself", Pantherskin's problem behavior is hard to document in a handful of convenient diffs. He just slightly distorts everything, and aims 90% of his edits at personalities rather than article content. I can't speak for User:Ratel, but if I responded to all of Pantherskin's distortions here, I would get sucked into a drama that could consume vast amounts of time I'd rather spend editing. The only way to really know what's going on is to follow the story, which means reading a hundred or so diffs of Pantherskin's comments, and what admin in his right mind wants to do that? Noloop (talk) 17:04, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Have you ever heard of assuming good-faith Noloop? I bet that will help.Abce2|Aww nuts!Wribbit!(Sign here) 18:50, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Noloop

Someone needs to stop Noloop, so today he called me gnat that needs to be swat here . He also keeps adding his harassment to the deletion discussion Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Criticism of Human Rights Watch (2nd nomination), calling me an accussed sockpuppet. Pantherskin (talk) 15:00, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, repeatedly deleting an editor's comments from a discussion page is very gnat-like. You've done this so many times it violates 3RR and you've done that in two different articles. Since the page you linked to is an "accused sockpuppet" page, why exactly do you object to saying you are "an accussed sockpuppet"? (Would you like me to accuss you a little?) Noloop (talk) 15:21, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

How exactly was pointing out that he had been accused of being a sockpuppet relevant to the deletion discussion? --Smashville 15:29, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Which discussion? On the Anti-americanism article, it is relevant because two of the accused socks were editing the page. On the nom. for deletion, two of the other editors smell very socky. One is an anon IP that hadn't edited in 4 months prior to the nom., and the other is now flagged as having zero edits outside that subject. When there's a bad smell, people should know a likely source. You're free to disagree, but you're not free to delete someone's comments from discussion. Noloop (talk) 15:55, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Did anyone try to explain to Pantherskin about it on his talk page? Not from what I've seen.Abce2|Aww nuts!Wribbit!(Sign here) 16:01, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Anti-americanism, I have explained this above. That you call registering an account sockpuppeting only shows your bad faith (as if the swat the gnat threat did not show it in abundance...). Regarding the deletion discussion, yes, I am free to delete your harassing comments and you are not free to follow me to pages where I edit and harass me there by smearing my name. If there is a bad smell so it be, but without any evidence you just cannot go around and smear other editors. Pantherskin (talk) 18:18, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I love Misplaced Pages. Noloop continues with his attacks on me, calling me a troll . Pantherskin (talk) 18:21, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

@Noloop. Being accused of something is not the same as being proven of it. But based on your rule system I accuse you of being a sockpuppet. Now that's said I can now smear your name over any page you have made any comments on. That is the way you see it isn't it? --WebHamster 22:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm starting to understand WP:DRAMAOUT. Noloop (talk) 00:03, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

How? And frankly, I don't give a(2-year old present) about your accusations about me. Or anyone else.Abce2|Aww nuts!Wribbit!(Sign here) 03:19, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

It's the same idea as WP:GETALIFE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noloop (talk • contribs) 22:05, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

What are you talking about? I do hope that you are not stating that I get a life.Abce2|Aww nuts!Wribbit!(Sign here) 23:08, 6 August 2009 (UTC)Abce2|Aww nuts!Wribbit!(Sign here) 22:59, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

suggested pause

In response to Ratel saying Collect has a mental illness, Collect says Ratel has a mental illness--my comments about the way Ratel is conducted the dispute here seems to apply more widely. The subthread just above seems to indicate similar. I propose a 48 hr moratorium on Collect, Ratel, Noloop, & Smashville and Pantherskin commenting on this here, in the hope of preventing more of this; the question of who is in the right would seem to belong elsewhere. DGG (talk) 04:32, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Kindly note that I made absolutely no such aspersions on Ratel. Ever. The quotes from Ratel which I cited are all his. Now off to a vacation in the mountains ... Collect (talk) 19:01, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Tyciol Day 3

Sorry to drag this one back out of the archive. Tyciol has posted a huge response just after MiszaBot archived it. I'm not sure how to get the whole thread back, but Black Kite did make the following statement in the thread and on Tyciol's talkpage

I'll be quite clear about this. Some of your redirects are fine, some are debatable (and those can be discussed) - ones like this are utterly useless. Here's a Google search for "Elton Hercules" without his surname - no results at all. It looks like you're unaware how Western-style names and honorifics are used. You are making work for other users who have better things to do, and I would have thought, given the number of users who have expressed similar opinions here and on AN/I, that you would know better than to immediately recreate these. So - if you start re-creating more obviously pointless redirects like Elton Hercules, I will block you for disruption. Black Kite 14:03, 3 August 2009 (UTC) (the other redirects he kept recreating were Sir John, Sir McCartney, Sir Paul)

He has re-created Elton Hercules, and continues to argue that adding a hatnote to Sir Hercules (the horse) directing to Elton John was appropriate, continues to argue about other redirects that were deleted , continues to argue that it is not his job to make proper dab pages and has indicated to me that he intends to re-create the redirect Sir John ( to Elton John) despite their being hundreds if not thousands of "Sir John's" on Misplaced Pages, and the redirect Sir Paul (to Paul McCartney)(ditto with the Sir Pauls)

PS - and before anyone else notes it, yes I was rude to Tyciol and made an intemperate accusation, and I have apologised unreservedly for same as it was completely unjustified and inappropriate and I should not have said it.

I am reraising this not from any personal feelings, but because I'm not convinced this matter is resolved yet, as I don't think he understands why everyone is up in arms. If an admin wants to close it, then I respect that decision. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:37, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

If he does not get it, then perhaps he should be blocked.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 12:11, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Look at the refactoring of Talk:United States that has just been performed. Is there a fast way to stop this misguided behavior, or do we have to debate the pros and cons of messing up talk page histories? Johnuniq (talk) 12:15, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, wow, I at first did not realize that he added his comment to the archives. This user is clearly not here to contribute constructively at this point, or he is so clueless that he should not be allowed to edit anymore.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 12:29, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

And god damn it I just found another whole set of redirects he had made for living people to a list of fictional characters. At this point, we should block him until we can clean up the shit he's made by deleting every single item he's made in the article space.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 12:33, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Blocked for a week. Dougweller (talk) 12:36, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

If anyone thinks this is the wrong period of time, feel free to change it, the length was a response to the comment about 'until we can clean up the shit he's made'. Dougweller (talk) 12:39, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

From my experience dealing with Tyciol relating to talkpage reformating, he believes in the absolute rightness of his edits even if they go against consensus. I think he actually believes that WP:IAR also includes ignoring consensus (WT:TALK#Reformatting). This type of behavior is highly disruptive and unproductive. --Farix (Talk) 13:32, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Based on some of the stuff I've deleted while working my way through his history (such as redirecting Chris Kimble to Community of practice#References), I wouldn't be surprised if a badly-designed bot was involved. --Carnildo (talk) 21:57, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

No, this appears to solely be a man made deal. Someone during this week of respite should compile a list of redirects that are still active and see if they should be deleted.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 23:12, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

No, he does it all with his own fair hands. Were you to enquire, he would give you a three paragraph explanation of why that redirect was a good idea.Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:43, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what to make of his intentions with this edit where he states that everyone complaining about his edits are hounding/harassing him. Seems he has no intentions of stopping after his block expires. Again, this is more evidence that he views that he believe in the ultimate rightness of his edits and can ignore consensus. --Farix (Talk) 00:33, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

It just doesn't feel like he has any understanding of the problem.Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:56, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

He clearly doesn't understand. Perhaps an administrator should extend his block indefinitely until he shows an understanding of the issues at hand. I will also be contacting someone to compile a list of articles/redirects/disambiguation pages he's created to clean things up.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 01:13, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Let the cleaning begin

With help from MZMcBride, I've compiled a list of every single redirect Tyciol has ever made. This 5205 member list can be seen here. This list is four days old, so some newer creations and recent deletions are not incorporated into the list.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 01:50, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

His number of userpage redirects are interesting, to put it mildly. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:57, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Taking the number of redirects he's made, the speed at which he can make them, and his comments (some of which were, well, interesting, eg the one linked above which, including the comments on order and terrorism, lead me to think he won't and possibly can't stop his rapid-fire editing, I've changed the block to indefinite. I've explained on his talk page that this is in the interests of Misplaced Pages and is not punitive, as hypothetically it could be lifted today if he shows he understands the problem and agrees to stop. Dougweller (talk) 08:31, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Concur with the indefblock block per WP:COMPETENCE, and would suggest a ban on all redirect/disambig work as a minimum condition of their return. EyeSerene 08:40, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Endorse block; no objections from me either. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:47, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, he hadn't got it up to here (refactoring other editors contributions on a talk page seems an obsession, plus the statement "Hm, well I totally made a statement bout Elton, let's see how that turns out then I can review the other 3 to see if I can adequately explain my meaning for'm."), and I did get the sense he was waiting his block out as an unreasonable imposition (where he links to WP:NOEDIT without any apparent grasp of its applicability to himself) rather than examining his conduct. So yes, endorse.Elen of the Roads (talk) 09:36, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

While ideally, every single redirect should be judged on its own merits, considering the sheer number of bad redirects and the inordinate amount of work involved in evaluating every single one for plausability, has anyone considered the use of Special:Nuke (which will delete all pages, or a subset thereof, that a user has made the last month)? decltype (talk) 09:58, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Can we do that? I suspect that would still leave a cleanup. And from the looks of (I did not know of other Sir Johns. Had I known of them I would have improved it into a disambig. and "You don't have an authority to tell me not to refactor talk pages, refactoring pages is useful for reading.") suggest it will be a long time before this editor is editing again. Elen of the Roads (talk) 12:51, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I think if feasable, Decltype's suggestion is probably the best option. We managed without these redirects before he came along, and if some good ones get deleted along the way, I'm sure they will get recreated eventually. Jeni 12:58, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

It'd work, but then there'd still be so many other redirects that he made a long time ago (and Urine Therapy as he mentions on his talk page is still a bad redirect because case sensitivity is only exists in links).—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 13:00, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

To Elen: If by "can", you meant "is it technically feasible", the answer is yes ("The following pages were recently created by Decltype; put in a comment and hit the button to delete them."). If you meant "would it be acceptable, and the right thing to do", well, that is more or less the question I am posing. decltype (talk) 14:02, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. It was the 'technically' rather than 'wikilegally' that I was wondering about.Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:15, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Aaaaaaaaargh! I've just discovered Anal Creampie. Which redirects to Cream pie. Which is a perfectly normal article about confectionery made from pastry and cream. Please God! nobody explain why he came up with that redirect.Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:33, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Polynomial123 unblock request

The following is a request for an unblock from Polynomial123 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) who was found to be a non-totally reformed vandal operating more than a dozen of sockpuppets. The request is full of promises and acknowledgment of wrongdoings. Anyway, I'm leaving this for the community to decide upon it.

User:Friday had suggested that any unblock must be accompagnied by an ANI topic ban. Also, I believe this user needs more to get reformed totally. I suggest that a volunteer mentor takes care of that.

P.S. A full list of all sockpuppets and prior investigations can be found at the user's talk page. -- FayssalF - 23:57, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

From my experience for the past few months of editing Misplaced Pages, I have learned some valuable lessons about proper behaviour for editors. I understand my previous behaviour from this account and the sock puppets I’ve created a while back have been inappropriate for Misplaced Pages. I’ve learned about and experienced the consequences of abusing multiple accounts, which I’ve not understood prior to joining Misplaced Pages. This is why I no longer intend to use sock puppets disruptively. I also understand that I’ve been disruptive by abusing the ability to create pages on Misplaced Pages by making nonsense redirects and creating a game on my user page. I was trying to be humourous, but now I’ve learned that these kinds of edits are treated as vandalism or disruption, so I intend to no longer to do these things as well. Now, I also know that vandalism is vandalism no matter how much is made, and that it’s immaterial to compare the amount of vandalism in relation to one’s good faith edits. For this reason, I will make my future edits productively instead of disruptively, and am wishing for this incident to be overlooked. I have proven to still be a useful contributor prior to this block, because rather than creating nonsense, I have created useful pages, such as these:

and I even reverted vandalism several times , and I’ve warned users most of these times and I’ve also warned users of inappropriate usernames , and most recently, I’ve helped an editor in an incident . I am willing to continue my ways in making productive editing such as these mentioned above, and I’ll revert vandalism fully, like the examples shown above instead of sneaking in vandalism whilst reverting. And I’ll be more civil with other editors. With all that stated, if I get unblocked I promise I’ll try to be a much more helpful and productive editor than I was before. If it’s appropriate to unblock, but at the same time endorse a ban on a specific topic area, I would gladly agree on it.

I believe this person has the potential to be a great contributor to Misplaced Pages. I was one of the people involved in getting his 80-some sockpuppets blocked originally (see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations/ScienceGolfFanatic) and sometime afterward discovered that one of them had been unblocked because some of the pages he edits are still on my watchlist. Whether the unblocking admin knew that the user was a sockpuppeteer or not, I can't say ... but after being unblocked, he seemed to realize he wasn't going to be able to get away with vandalism anymore and so he actually started doing some good helpful editing, creating several new articles about golf courses, doing New Page Patrol, and reverting vandalism. Then apparently he slipped back into his old habits briefly the other day and vandalized 2 articles while using an edit summary that made it look like he was reverting vandalism. He was immediately caught and then blocked as though he had just committed the sum of all sins. I think that this was too harsh and would like to see him unblocked so long as he realizes that people are going to be watching his every move and that he won't be able to get away with even the slightest mischiefs. If this happens, I think Misplaced Pages as a whole will be improved. -- Soap /_{Contributions} 00:11, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Let me get this straight. Polynomial123 was blocked from April indef for vandalism and etc. On 18 July, some kindly soul unblocks him on promise of reform. Between 18 July and 4 August, Polynomial123 continues disruptive editing and builds a sockfarm, while continuing to make reasonably sensible edits from one account, apparently in the belief that admins won't block an account that makes some level of sensible contribution. On 5 August, Polynomial123 gets indefd again and on 6 August has had a Damascus Road experience and is asking to be unblocked? The phrase 'I don't think so' comes first to mind.Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:08, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

The sockpuppets were used during the April to July period, not after it. Since being unblocked on July 18 he has been almost entirely a productive editor. -- Soap /_{Contributions} 00:12, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

User:Dtotalswung69 was created and used after Poly got unblocked. They claim to have stopped creating socks after being unblocked, which has proven false. I would be disinclined to unblock an obviously insincere user.--Atlan (talk) 00:18, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I think the release of the block on Polynomial123 (originally named Pinkgirl34) must have unblocked all the others too. Perhaps it was an IP-based block; I'm not familiar with how Misplaced Pages's block system works.Note: I see now that he had to be unblocked separately on the 69 account. However, the Dtotalswung69 account was created on July 2, and Polynomial/Pinkgirl was unblocked on July 18, so it still remains that, as far as I know, he has not created any new sockpuppets since being unblocked. Moreover, although he did use the swung69 account to edit, it was only to his own talk page (unless there are deleted edits I can't see), and those edits were wholly legitimate in my eyes. -- Soap /_{Contributions} 00:31, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

One look at Dtotalswung69's talk page history shows you there are indeed deleted edits. I wonder why you haven't bothered. Anyway, I'll let you be the judge of how legitimate they are.--Atlan (talk) 00:42, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I meant deleted edits from after July 18, because that was the time at which the user was unblocked as Pinkgirl contingent on his promise to not use sockpuppets anymore. I'm well aware that he was a vandal and sockpuppeteer of the highest order before that, and I was instrumental in helping get him blocked originally. I'm defending him now because I believe he has changed and can become a productive editor so long as he realizes that he can't get away with vandalism anymore. -- Soap /_{Contributions} 00:51, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, while the edits were from before the Polynomial account got unblocked, the unblock request came after that. I consider an unblock request an intention to continue editing under that account, which would amount to socking. Fact of the matter is, that on neither account, the use of the other account was divulged.--Atlan (talk) 01:00, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I have declined this user's unblock request as I have no confidence that someone who acted with so much deception can be trusted at their word. If the community comes to a different conclusion than I did regarding this unblock request I have no problem with my decision to decline this unblock being reversed. However I seriously doubt the community is that gullible. Chillum 00:23, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

The list on the talk page is just of socks that have been found. Given evidence to this extent that he has done so before, we have no reason not to believe he may be socking even now. HalfShadow 00:29, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Halfshadow. If he has socked a lot before, how do we know that he won't do it again. Also, I just can't get over the in your cage for your block and be a good little hamster. comment made on the blocked WebHamster's talk page.--_{Sky Attacker} 02:02, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Ditto. Looks like he attempted to post a third unblock request, but it was categorically declined. seicer | talk | contribs 13:15, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps at a later date, if someone in good standing is willing to vouch for and mentor this person, I might support an unblock, but this soon after the sockfarm was rooted out and blocked, I can't say I'm eager. – Luna Santin (talk) 18:12, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Croatian language

- Croatian nationalist bigots keep vandalizing the article, removing referenced material. Since they are 3 and I'm one, and I don't want to violate 3RR or some other stupid rule that will get me blocked (to their satisfaction), can some admin with basic linguistic competence please take a look at their changes, and see what I wrote on the talkpage. Basically all the ISO macrolanguages are mentioned in all the Misplaced Pages language infoboxes, and there is no reason to exclude Serbo-Croatian, which as a genetic clade can be supported by many reliable sources (e.g. I provided a reference of Schenker's tree, and that guy wrote a standard English-language handbook on Slavic studies, so you can get more credible than that, and that reference was removed by Croatian nationalist Imbris as you can see).

It would be advisable to revert the Imbris' change and wait on the talkpage for some of them to provide actual evidence on why exactly SC should not be included in the tree, because there are obviously credible sources that claim otherwise. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 00:52, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Am I asking this at the wrong place? Can someone please take a look? --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 07:59, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

When you start with "Croatian nationalist bigots, most admins just turn off and ignore you. Try looking a bit less biased in your namecalling. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 17:10, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

David Miscavige

These edits are very questionable in terms of application of WP:BLP: . BLP demands an emphasis of a neutral POV and must be very verifiable. These edits in the lead section of the article are not conform with these rules, but it seems to me an indicator for "edit warring" as it was common recently and caused the Arbitration Committee to decide in May 2009 "(C) To edit in accordance with all Misplaced Pages policies and to refrain from any form of advocacy concerning any external controversy, dispute, allegation, or proceeding", which has been put on the article's talk page . Please review. Proximodiz (talk) 01:11, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Note that Proximodiz was topic-banned from Scientology related topics (including that article, on the Church of Scientology's current leader) by Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Scientology. I won't hazard an opinion if this is a violation of a topic ban, but just FYI for anyone who is reviewing in more depth. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:31, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

On further review, it does constitute a clear violation of clause (ii) of the topic ban:

Scope of Scientology topic ban

3A) Editors topic banned by remedies in this proceeding are prohibited (i) from editing articles related to Scientology or Scientologists, broadly defined, as well as the respective article talk pages and (ii) from participating in any Misplaced Pages process relating to those articles, including as examples but not limited to, articles for deletion, reliable sources noticeboard, administrators' noticeboard and so forth.

Passed 11 to 0 at 13:31, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

One month block is authorized by the case findings but I will limit to a one week block in the hopes that that's enough pour encourager les autres and have people take the arbcom findings seriously. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:40, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

User talk:99.149.84.135

A large number of hit-and-run IP editors are attacking User talk:99.149.84.135. I guess it can't very well be semi-protected, or the User him/herself can't edit it, but is there anything that can be done? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 01:25, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

BTW, those IPs come from all over the world. Is there some sort of organized harassment going on? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 01:31, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

This has something to do with the Kevin Park (author) article and an account Kevpark (talk · contribs). There was some weirdness going on earlier today or yesterday with the account trying to get articles he had written speedied, perhaps as retribution for the article about himself being deleted, then posting to my talk page claiming his account was compromised. Someone ought to run checkuser and/or look into this. Maybe the IPs from all over are open proxies? <>Multi-Xfer<> (talk) 02:04, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

It's not proxies, some of them are Comcast, Verizon, Telstra in New Zealand, and another server in the UK. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 07:21, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

This isn't a new trick, but it's not widespread, either. Looks like a number of people are being directed, off-site, to restore the page to an old (and bad) version; the attack can be hamstrung by brief semi-protection (even just a few minutes) or by deleting the old version(s) being reverted to. The result, on-wiki, appears to be a massively coordinated effort, but it's really not. – Luna Santin (talk) 18:10, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

It's possible (btw the talk page is semi'd right now.) But what does this have to do with Aitias (going by the edit summaries of the IPs)? --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 02:06, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely nothing. Off-wiki stuff. Keegan (talk) 20:45, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Sambokim (talk · contribs) COI, repeated copyvios, yet again.

previous Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive200#User:Sambokim_COI.2C_repeated_copyvios.2C_yet_again._Suggesting_topic_ban_and_block after the block, his first edit was once again to insert copyright text into an article.. The same text he was warned and blocked for inserting. He's never responded to any attempts at on-wiki communication and often inserts the same copyright text over and over like in the case of this article. Since he is the PR guy for the team this is a combination of both copyvio and spam as the reason for these edits is promotional. 24 hours obviously didn't get his attention.--Crossmr (talk) 02:16, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, so I can't do it myself, but I strongly suggest a 1 week block. Firestorm 02:25, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

 Done Already taken care of. Jauerback/_dude. 02:27, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

User just fails to communicate and recognize his block. he logs out and continues to jam the copyvio in there .--Crossmr (talk) 14:36, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Override this function

I'm still getting this error... I click on a link and get an otherwise empty page with the words "Override this function..". Is this being worked on? <>Multi-Xfer<> (talk) 03:02, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

A few people are getting this (I've gotten it a handful of times also). It was discussed here and a bug report has been filed here. The developers are aware of the problem. JoshuaZ (talk) 03:06, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Just now got "Override this function." again. I looked in vain for the button to override the function. :'( Baseball Bugs carrots 07:02, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Refreshing the page works for me. I guess I'm lucky -- Luk 07:05, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

It seems to be sporadic with no pattern. I got several of them in quick succession earlier, then this one a little while ago, nothing since. It's happened when going from history to an item, and when going back to watch list. Baseball Bugs carrots 07:44, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Fathers' rights movement

Article is subject to a vandal abusing multiple accounts. I'm not really up to speed with procedures, etc... maybe semiprot? Want opinions, thanks. -- Pakaran 03:12, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I've blocked at least one underlying IP address; please advise if more abusive sockpuppets turn up. – Luna Santin (talk) 17:54, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Requesting long-term block for IP 69.225.251.134 (a.k.a. User:Lysdexia, previously banned)

This IP signs posts as "lysdexia" and has the same editing pattern as User:Lysdexia (banned for sockpuppetry). The IP has been warned numerous times by myself and other users (see User talk:69.225.251.134) for the use of nonsense words and invented usages (examples: ). When confronted the IP simply responds that everyone else is in the wrong. The IP will undo other users' reverts (). Short-term blocks appear have no effect on this user, and I doubt an unenforced ban will either. Strad (talk) 03:52, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

She (Autymn DC) received a 31 hour block after the last report here a week ago. Mathsci (talk) 06:14, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I gave the IP a week block. Note that banned means banned--not allowed to edit at all--block-on-sight without warning. I don't see a formal community ban (though I would support one), however, socking or block-evasion itself is blockable per policy, and this user does have a long history of that type of behavior. DMacks (talk) 06:33, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

User_talk:JAN3IRO_69

This user User_talk:JAN3IRO_69 there is an edit war going on at F.C._Internazionale_Milano is losing it, and getting very uncivil, here this edit summary for example, ] I will leave him a message to say I have mentioned this here.(Off2riorob (talk) 09:28, 6 August 2009 (UTC)) I have requested semi protection for the page here Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_page_protection#Current_requests_for_protection (Off2riorob (talk) 09:39, 6 August 2009 (UTC))

I've protected the article for a week just to stop the daft moving a dividing template up and down the page. (For transparency: I reverted before protecting, but the reversion was of childish IP vandalism, not of what was being warred over. I've resolutely protected The Wrong Version, not to any preferred version as the revert might suggest). ➲ REDVERS 09:48, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not seeing any incivilities, just an edit war? The user doesn't appear to use edit summaries, unless I am missing something? Jeni 15:50, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

The edit summary here..] Off2riorob (talk) 18:16, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Ah yes, sorry, I was looking at the edit summaries, not the content! Jeni 18:58, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

He was left a this is your only warning by User:Toddst1 on his talk and he has just come back and blanked his page ] , not much communication from his side, so far. I will keep an eye on him. (Off2riorob (talk) 19:02, 6 August 2009 (UTC))

Disruption by User:Triplestop

• Triplestop (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Joklolk (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

User:Triplestop, after nominating my articles and categories for deletion, is falsely accusing me of being a sockpuppet. I have nothing to do with the other users. Joklolk (talk) 13:01, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Have you tried discussing this with Triplestop or did you just come straight here? Jauerback/_dude. 13:08, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, after first discussing with the other editor, why not head off to WP:WQA if there was no resolution?? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:27, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Joklolk, they are not your articles or categories, they are the community's articles and categories from the moment you hit that "Save page" button. If you don't want your material to be edited at will by others, then don't submit them. MuZemike 15:07, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

You don't need any help from administrators as nobody is doing anything wrong. If you have comments with regards to him accusing you of abusing multiple accounts, then note them at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Joklolk. As for the nomination for deletion of the categories, there's no reason to believe he did it maliciously; comment on the deletion discussions. Otherwise, please play nicely or nobody gets dessert ... - Rjd0060 (talk) 13:49, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

The above user is a POV pushing troll and a very likely sockpuppet of User:ViperNerd, who popped up right around the time the latter was blocked indef. See Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Joklolk. And sorry if I'm being "disruptive", I take serious offense with users pushing their ridiculous POVs. Triplestop x3 13:47, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

That is not helpful in the slightest. - Rjd0060 (talk) 13:49, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Well either way, I had very legitimate reasons for doing what I did. Triplestop x3 13:52, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

"POV pushing troll" is a personal attack and very uncivil - there are legitimate ways to characterise a user's contributions as unhelpful/disruptive without resorting to personal epithets. Exxolon (talk) 14:12, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Alright, alright. I'll be keeping my hands clean of this matter from now on. Triplestop x3 14:38, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

As a procedural note, Joklolk has been blocked after some cross-wiki checkuser collaboration -- see block log for details. – Luna Santin (talk) 20:39, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

POV Pushing by User:Cinéma C

Cinéma C today created an article called the "Kravica massacre". In this article it is written that "The Kravica massacre was the January 1993 killing of 49 Serb civilians in the village of Kravica near Bratunac in Bosnia and Herzegovina, by Bosnian Muslim forces under the command of Naser Oric during the Bosnian War." It is referenced by this dubious Serbian language source

Cinéma C afterwards edited the article Kravica, where the incident took place and he removed content which says 11 civilians were killed and 35 military people were killed. which was well referenced with this reliable English language source . In that source it says "The allegations that the attack resulted in hundreds of civilian victims have been shown to be false. Insight into the original documentation of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS) clearly shows that in fact military victims highly outnumber the civilian ones. The document entitled "Warpath of the Bratunac brigade", puts the military victims at 35 killed and 36 wounded; the number of civilian victims of the attack is eleven." He has obviously removed the content because it said that only 11 Serb civilians were killed and that there were 35 military deaths and this does not agree with his personal opinions.

Cinema C is obviously trying to make out that all the deaths in this incident were civilians and not military casualties. This is a very biased and POV course of edits made by Cinema C. This is in gross violation of NPOV. Cinema C needs to learn that he/she should not use Misplaced Pages as a way of expressing her/ his personal bias to the world. His edits are very Pro Serbian and anti Bosnian.

Can someone please correct the POV edits and make sure that Cinema C doesn't make POV edits again. Regards Ijanderson (talk) 15:18, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you could try discussing this on Talk:Kravica massacre or User talk:Cinéma C before tattling. Toddst1 (talk) 15:33, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I am happy to discuss my changes, but this is not the place. I have not provided any information that I didn't back up with sources and if Ijanderson disagrees with my sources, he has the right to challenge them, not automatically accuse me of POV pushing here. Thanks, --Cinéma C 17:53, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

POV? NPOV? "The pursuit of balance can create imbalance because sometimes something is true." - Simon Dodd { U·T·C·WP:LAW } 01:06, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Anon self-identifies as involved editor, deletes material embarassing to The Israel Project

At The Israel Project, 94.188.130.146 (talk · contribs) has repeatedly deleted some material, with edit comments such as "(The text deleted was added by a person/group who tried to attack TIP on many occasions, using illegal methods sometimes. I am in charge of the web department at The Israel Project.)". There was no discussion on talk first. What seems to have happened is that The Israel Project had an embarrassing leak, which was picked up by Newsweek and then by the Jewish Telegraphic Agency . It appears that someone at The Israel Project is frantically trying to make the leaked material disappear. The deletions triggered "section blanking" and "references removed" tags, Favonian (talk · contribs) undid the blanking once, and I undid it once. I've also added additional references to reliable sources, and fixed reference tags, so we now have very solid cites to the material of interest. Please watch for further deletions in this area. Thanks. --John Nagle (talk) 18:09, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Clayton College of Natural Health

A previously uninvolved admin, please, to take a look at Clayton College of Natural Health. Please see its recent history and also the recent history (only visible via the history tab) of User talk:Shannon Rose. My own opinion on this matter is fairly clear, but I also have a rather clear opinion about the value of the kind of stuff that this College is teaching (even when it's taught well), and have made the mistake of expressing this opinion; fearing that I might be taken for an edit warrior myself, I'm not reaching for my own cluebat er sorry I mean my own submit button. -- Hoary (talk) 12:45, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Note the frivolous and clearly wrong SPI filed by Shannon Rose against three editors in good standing, where no evidence was even presented against one of the editors (me). They have also repeatedly placed inappropriate warnings on talk pages of involved editors, and provided no policy rational for their blanking of large sections of relevant and well sourced text. Editing suggests a connection with the college, giving a WP:COI, and a strong WP:POV. Verbal chat 14:16, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Shannon Rose (talk · contribs)

This user is repeatedly removing well sourced and pertinent information from the article, despite many warnings and a consensus against their edits on the article talk page. They have recently come off a block, but a new block should probably be considered to stop further disruption of this article, as warnings and discussion have had no effect. They have also engaged in personal attacks, accused other good faith editors of "slander", and filed frivolous SPI reports against long-standing editors (see above). Verbal chat 18:10, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

It appears to me that ShannonRose is alone in her current campaign to expunge one particular sentence from Clayton College of Natural Health. Everyone else who has looked at the article recently seems to find the sentence reasonable. I think that protection of the page would be a more fitting way to cool the edit war than blocking the user. --Orlady (talk) 19:46, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

As there is only one user edit warring against consensus, locking the page down is unfair to all other editors who wish to improve the project. I have reported Shanno Rose to WP:AN3 for breaking WP:3RR as well as continued edit warring. Notice they have expanded their accusations of bad faith and sockpuppetry to even more editors. Verbal chat 20:01, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I've blocked the editor for 48 hours based solely on the 3RR/edit warring on the article. I haven't time to dig further into this thread or the circumstances at this time, but based on their block log a longer period may be in order. Nja 20:37, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I have just added a warning against legal threats and intimidation. Brangifer (talk) 05:08, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

User:AvatarMN just won't let go

(*sigh*) I tried to end this on my own, but this guy won't drop it. As you can see from this thread on my talk page User talk:Beeblebrox#Reverting talk I repeatedly explained myself as clearly as I could, and told this user they could pursue the matter in any way they chose and not have to worry about me intervening again. The thread ends with him calling me a sociopath . I warned him on his talk page for violating WP:NPA, and his response was to call me a sociopath again . Since I gave him an "only warning" I'm bringing this here. If an admin (or anyone else) would like to try and explain why that is not acceptable it would be appreciated, I have had it with this guy and don't wish to talk to him anymore. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:42, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

If you don't want to talk to him. then just stop talking to him. Yes he shouldn't have called you a sociopath, but really an only warning?Theresa Knott | token threats 19:20, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

• Would you prefer a "soft" approach on personal attacks? I don't believe consensus supports that, and I know I don't. I've done enough vandal fighting that I've been the subject of a number of personal attacks now, including that I am a pedophile, I think I'm Jesus, I have no life, and now I'm a sociopath. Put yourself at the receiving end of some of those and see if you want to mollycoddle such users. Anyhoo, I probably never would have noticed, but Twinkle automatically added his talk page to my watchlist when I left the warning. (I'll be taking it back off now). Beeblebrox (talk) 19:32, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

He shouldn't have attacked you, and you've given an only warning. If that line were crossed again by the user I think most admins would block. I think that could go to WP:AIV, as with any continued disruption after a only/final warning, and really I see no utility in continuing this ANI thread. You've vented, so let's not let this get out of hand and cause further undue drama. Nja 19:42, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough. I just wanted some more eyes on this so he understands it's not just me saying not to make personal attacks. That seems to have happened now, so as long as I never hear from him again about this I'm more than happy to consider the matter closed. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:53, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I can't believe this. You warned me not to post on your talk page again, not on mine. I don't see how it's any different for you to conclude from my behavior that I'm too tenacious, but I can't collate from your own statements that you're a word that means uncaring and without empathy; things you yourself said you were. I don't think it's fair for one person demand they get the last word, so just to satisfy my ego that you don't get to tell me to not say anything more, I put something on my own talk page. I don't know why you looked for it, and I had every intention of ending it there. So now I bow out. -- AvatarMN (talk) 05:58, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

User activites and Veiled threats.

There is a problem editor. User:Shimon Yanowitz has engaged in edit wars and personal attacks. In edition he seems to be making a few out of hand remarks about what happens if "we work against him" ]. I suggest a cool down block until he realizes why we don't allow original research and learns how to productively communicate with our community.Hell In A Bucket (talk) 18:43, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Agree. I agree with Hell In A Bucket's assessment, and even with King ♣'s labeling of this user's actions as "a threat".

However, blocks are NEVER meant to solely enforce a "cool down time"; but rather, to stop a chain of disruption already in progress, and where the offending user(s) has/have not cooled themselves down. - CobaltBlueTony™ _talk 19:00, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I miss Kurt. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:04, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I myself wouldn't suggest a block at this point. I think the user is moving dangerously close to blockable territory, but he's not there yet. As I mentioned on the user's talkpage, he's acting very owney about the page, as well. He makes frequent reference to his own academic qualifications, specifically told Hell he wouldn't accept him editing the page unless he measured up, and left canvassed warnings to every editor who opposed his addition of unsourced analysis to the page.

Problem editor, definitely worth watching, if only for the /popcorn, but not yet blockable.

On a side note, apparently there's a sysop up there with a sig very similar to mine (which I wasn't aware of when I redesigned mine). I'll be changing it now. King ♣ Talk 19:48, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

There we go. --King ÖÖmie III 20:15, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, I had similar difficulties with this user last year on the now deleted Psychophysical_Paradox article, as well as it's AfD. I generally gave the editor the benefit of the doubt, as I didn't want to bite the n00bs. -Verdatum (talk) 20:21, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

That AFD is scary. Attacking EVERY SINGLE delete vote? And not just the votes, the voters, calling every single one a fool (just like what happened here). He needs to be informed that that kind of interaction is unacceptable. I can't believe he wasn't sternly warned (or even banned) for his performance on that page.

He seems to be unable to differentiate between "subject of importance" and "subject meeting Misplaced Pages's inclusion guidelines". I'm thinking that's the real problem here, along with the superiority complex (apparently all users without PHDs should be barred from editing articles created by someone who does). --King ÖÖmie III 20:33, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually, one of the editors he attacked actually has a Ph.D. MuZemike 23:18, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Speaking loosely, I tend to agree more or less with Kingoomieiii's assessment of the immediate situation. The AfD link is helpful to understanding, as well, but not something I find actionable this far after the fact. – Luna Santin (talk) 23:39, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

User:Joklolk

Now that this user has been blocked, I'm thinking G5 should be applied to all of the stuff he made, as it was created in a clear attempt to troll. Would someone like to do the honors? Triplestop x3 20:23, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Looks like discussion regarding some of that content is ongoing (for example, several uninvolved users seem to favor keeping the article at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Communist genocide); where that's the case, we might as well allow discussion to continue. Are there any specific examples where that's not the case? – Luna Santin (talk) 20:38, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

He created a few categories and redirects that haven't been edited by others. Triplestop x3 20:40, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

And anyway, its only content created by a banned user after they have been banned that G5 applies to. For the rest, there is WP:PROD Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:43, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

He is a serial crosswiki vandal, he can be treated as banned. Especially when what he made is a clear attempt to troll Triplestop x3 20:45, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

No, sorry. G5. Banned user. Pages created by banned users in violation of their ban having no substantial edits by others.

For everything else, there is AfD.Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:08, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Account created solely for a personal attack

This account was created solely to post a personal attack against me. Account with one edit Given the talk page where it happened and the fact that the user called me "Red Hand" I suspect it's a serial sockpuppeteer I've clashed with in the past. Anyway, is this really acceptable behaviour here? The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 22:03, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

• If you think you know who the puppetmaster is, file an SPI and a checkuser can flush out other socks. Otherwise, if that account makes no other edits (apart from the first one), I don't know what we can do. Protonk (talk) 22:17, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

OK. Thanks for the reply. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 22:21, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

If the account makes more edits or another throwaway account pops up to hassle you, post again in this thread and we'll block him/her. Protonk (talk) 22:25, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

 Likely match for NetherSarum (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) and Blackshod (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki). Both accounts have been editing in a similar area and posting identical content at Special Boat Service. I'll be checking shortly to be sure that all three accounts have been notified of this thread. – Luna Santin (talk) 23:15, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Luna. Protonk (talk) 23:17, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Editors failing to abide by AFD consensus at Public image of Barack Obama

Arbcom request

I've filed a new Arbcom remedy request concerning some issues arising in the above hatted discussion, here. I could use a little help notifying the other people and threads this affects. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 05:07, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion, CoM's entry into that discussion, with its attack on unnamed editors who don't believe in NPOV, is a clear violation of his topic ban, and I have accordingly blocked him for 48 hours. Should Arbcom conclude it's not a violation, don't wait for me to wake up before unblocking.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 06:25, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

User:Die4Dixie's attacks on another user.

--Die4Dixie (talk) 23:56, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

See Die4Dixie (talk · contribs)'s comments here and here. Di4Dixie either needs a civility check, or a psychologist. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 23:47, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

• "Are you now, or have you ever been..." Seems like a pretty tactless question and the line of inquiry behind it ought to stop. Protonk (talk) 23:50, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Question was answered by the rant he left on my page. I´m satisfied and we can move on.--Die4Dixie (talk) 23:56, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

What rant? All I see is a reasoned response to your personal attacks, and your continued attacks. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 00:00, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

As the user in question, I would add that I find Dixie's accusations and the possible paranoia that spawned them troubling. Apparently he/she believes that they can openly insinuate and impugn the motives of other editors - going so far as to assume that because I edit articles with relation to Che Guevara, that I must secretly be a hired communist agent sent by the now defunct Soviet Union to rally the Proletarian masses on Misplaced Pages for the coming world takeover (oops did I just disclose the plan?). To top it off Dixie then believes that he/she has the right to interrogate me and make flippant accusations that I am "safe for now" in my supposed role as a "Communist/Maoist" insurgent within academia (Dixie's obviously never roamed the halls of the Sociology department, some of who would make me look like Milton Friedman). I'm not sure what should be done (if anything), but I would like Dixie to focus on editing articles, and not his/her own personal Wiki ‘red scare’.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 00:21, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Whatever happened to assuming good faith? --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:59, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Whom are you addressing? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 00:00, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

{ec}Sorry, failure to indent correctly (actually I think you may have snuck a comment in above me. Is this any clearer?Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:06, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Die4DixieWhatever happened to assuming good faith? --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:59, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Die4Dixie, this was not reasonable or appropriate. Polite inquiries into other people's political or social affiliations are not abusive by nature - this was over the line, an acusation and impeachment couched in polite wording. Do not do that again. We require all editors to assume good faith about each other's participation, edit in a manner which is collegial and respectful to others' participation, and not launch personal attacks on other editors. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:04, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I won´t ask again, but we can agree to disagree politely about your view on the situation. Please review the reporter´s recent comments and the rant left on my talkpage. I don´t want any sanction, but it seems a little Pot, kettle black, and my question was nothing like the comments these users have left.Die4Dixie (talk) 00:09, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

• If you're looking for some communists to harass, Dixie, how about The Smurfs? Their leader ever wears red... HalfShadow 00:27, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Then there's all those Republican states, colloquially known as "red" states. Baseball Bugs carrots 00:41, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I second that Die4Dixie's question was an inappropriate and weasely attack, though politely-worded. The response was more pointedly angry, but I'd be angry if such accusatory material were posted on my talk page. Die4Dixie also appears to be making accusations about another user's character and fitness to edit here, with conclusions made from their anger. I haven't reviewed the situation and therefore don't know on what basis Die4Dixie questioned Redthoreau's edits, but place to deal with another editor in that way is a RfC or 3rd opinion. Sneaky comments and smug assumptions are WP:ABF. Awickert (talk) 00:30, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Die4Dixie's question was a politely framed inquiry as to whether a particular editor who was editing communism-related articles was in fact a believer / adherent to communism. Wikipedians are not required to disclose their beliefs (or genders, or background, or nationality, occupation, age, etc), and suggestions that their editing is influenced by such factors are discouraged. So asking someone if they voted for Obama is also a little impolite. They can volunteer it, but they aren't expected to. Being a communist is not necessarily a scandalous thing, but in many countries it is more controversial than being a mainstream party member. The accusation here against D4D is that it was not a real question, but instead a dig or a politely worded accusation. He insists it wasn't. Are we in the business of deciding D4D's intention wasn't what he says it was? That just doesn't seem helpful. Let's just note that Redthoreau took exception to the question (although RTO was not the editor who filed this report.. D4D has already said he did not mean to offend. Maybe he can also say that he won't ask Redthoreau if he/she's a communist again? Maybe even an apology for having that misimpression? I don't see much more to it than that. Wikidemon (talk) 00:52, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I would mostly agree with that. The part at the end about subverting Misplaced Pages seemed a little too snarky. But I'm happy to see the issue dropped if the two editors are OK with things. Awickert (talk) 01:17, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Wikidemon, for the record, I did not personally report this incident, and would be more than glad to go back to editing articles without continuing interrogations from our resident political inquisitor. I am willing to move on, and hope that Dixie will heed others advice and refrain from similar actions in the future.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 01:43, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Sounds fair to me. I am sorry if he was offended.--Die4Dixie (talk) 03:06, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Dynamic IP user adding large amounts of dubious and unsourced material to actor BLPs and related film articles

There's a user, who apparently edits only from IP addresses geolocating to Lima, Peru, adding a ton of unsourced, dubious information to actress and actress-related articles. The information typically involves roles the actress didn't get, but supposedly auditioned for, was "considered" for, etc, etc. Some of the information is obviously wrong (the first edit that caught my attention had Kim Basinger auditioning for a film two years after its release); some is conspicuously dubious (Meryl Streep and Alyssa Milano competing for the same role); some more subtly dubious (Legally Blonde originally envisioned as a "dark" comedy vehicle fo Uma Thurman); but much of it is superficially plausible as individual items, but visibly problematic when dozens of names have been added to the article. Today the editor has inserted an unsourced and implausible claim into the Daryl Hannah article ("narrowly missing on" in the lead in Coal Miner's Daughter ). Some randomly chosen exsmples of the IP's work include this unlikely list of roles rejected by Melanie Griffith ; Molly Ringwald up for Uma Thurman's role in Pulp Fiction ; and the deeply weird suggestion that David Lynch tried to cast Cher, Meryl Streep, and Goldie Hawn in Blue Velvet before having to settle for Isabella Rossellini .

Is there any way to track down these edits that's more efficient than trolling through film-related articles checking to see which IP addresses are associated with Lima? Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 00:16, 7 August 2009 (UTC) (originally posted at WP:BLPN, reposted here per responses there)

We have no geographical IP search tool - The hard way you described is pretty much it. Do you have a list of IPs (those 3, any others?)? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:20, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

There are probably dozens of them. In Jennifer Jason Leigh alone, there's User:190.43.185.217, User:200.106.73.1, User:190.43.34.105, 190.232.79.250 , and 190.232.33.220. From Taxi Driver, there's User:190.81.73.39, and I've now run my limit of "Geolocates" for one day. I believe 190.232.79.235 is another, given this edit . In Melanie Griffith, probably 190.43.98.113 and 190.43.122.230. In Kim Basinger, I spot 190.43.191.239.. The user's also got an interest in SNL, and given the huge number of related articles there, checking the anon editors wil be a nightmare. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 01:08, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

It would be possible to write a tool that would return a list of IP addresses (and, perhaps, the time of the most recent edit) from a specified range of IP addresses that have made at least one edit (from there you could use special:contributions to see all of the edits from each IP address). The edits above are from at least 3 different ranges of IP addresses (click the "WHOIS" link from the contributions page to see the ranges, for example 200.106.39.228 is from the range 200.106.36/22 which means about 1000 addresses from 200.106.36.00 through 200.106.39.255). If you really want to chase down these spurious edits you might ask if someone has such a tool or has an interest in writing one at Misplaced Pages:Bot requests. -- Rick Block (talk) 01:27, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

User:Katsumasahiro2

Previous thread: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive556#Troublesome Pair

Katsumasahiro (talk · contribs) was originally blocked for 24 hours over edit warring on Kira Takenouchi‎ by repeatedly adding unsourced and poorly sourced material in violation of WP:BLP. During the coarse of time, I opened a sockpuppet case do to similarities with another editor Kxings (talk · contribs). Kxings (talk · contribs) has since been confirmed as an obvious sock of Kxing (talk · contribs) who was indefinitely blocked over a year ago for spamming via repeated recreations of Kira Takenouchi‎ and Yaoi house. (Note: Kxings is also the creator of the current Takenouchi‎ article.) Katsumasahiro immediately made a legal threat over the sockpuppety case just prior to his 24 hour block for edit warring. A checkuser confirms that the Katsumasahiro and Kxings use the same ISP and are from the same geographic area. Earlier today Katsumasahiro2 (talk · contribs) was created and is a clear sock of Katsumasahiro (talk · contribs). The account was added to the sockpuppet case and Versageek (talk · contribs) blocked the IP as a result. Now the account is making multiple unblock requests as well as being very uncivil. --Farix (Talk) 01:44, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I have strong doubts that this user will contribute to the project in a constructive manner if unblocked, however if anyone wants to lift or modify my block, feel free. --Versageek 01:56, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Both Katsumasahiro accounts should be indeffed as disruptive. I find it hard to believe that he/she just happened to forget their password all of a sudden. The incivility, the ranting at the AFD page and all makes it obvious this person will not be a net advantage to the project. <>Multi-Xfer<> (talk) 02:15, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I declined his unblock, and asked him to address the numerous problems noted from his first account, which need to be addressed before he can be unblocked. Even if we assume his is truthful about forgetting his password, his general problematic behavior spread across two accounts must be addressed. --Jayron32 02:16, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

He is now seeking someone to "override" the block since he claims we are the ones being "rude". --Farix (Talk) 02:24, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Given the level of insults and personal attacks he has hurled, unprovoked, against other people, I find such claims about others being rude to be laughable. --Jayron32 02:38, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Katsumasahiro2 is now using their user talk page as a sandbox initial addition. I'm a little concerned this (or the actual content of the makeshift sandbox) may breach WP:BLP - second opinions? --Malkinann (talk) 02:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Guys, just realized he's not actually blocked; he's only just been caught by the autoblock on his prior account, see his block log and talk page. It seems plainly clear that, given that an Autoblock only lasts for a short time, that his claim to being ignorant of a prior password seems like a false premise given that he conveniently only forgot the password when the account got blocked. Would someone care to ACTUALLY make the real block on his account. I think also we may need a CU to look into this, as there appears to be some sort of shenanigans going on... --Jayron32 03:08, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I think I already specified that the IP was blocked. In fact, here is the block log. --Farix (Talk) 03:12, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I would say that there are some serious WP:BLP issues with the "sandbox" as the sources don't support the claims being made. --Farix (Talk) 03:19, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Presumably there's nothing to stop this editor logging out and requesting a new password for their Katsumasahiro account. If they are managing to edit as Katsumasahiro2 then they are presumably able to get to the "Email new password" button for Katsumasahiro or am I missing something? If the answer is yes then the 2nd account should be indeffed with a pointer to that page. Right now they are effectively block evading by chatting on their 2nd talk page, even if is it currently constructive. Seems like a no brainer to lock down this second pointless account if only to keep all the discussion in one place. Mfield (Oi!) 03:42, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Stalking hounding and harassment

I've been at the receiving end and seen other editors receive very abusive treatment when they try to edit articles to include minority viewpoints consistent with our wp:NPOV policy. The policy states that "All Misplaced Pages articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." Yet those attempting to include minority viewpoints are often hounded and stalked. I understand that user talk pages are important means of communication, but if someone is told they're not welcome and their comments aren't related to article content why is the behavior allowed to continue? Also, I've seen and experienced these same "editors" following me to other talk pages and commenting in threads I'm involved in. Is this kind of taunting and harassment acceptable? The violation of our core NPOV policy seems bad enough, but after watching some major content contributors leave because of this, I'm very concerned that these methods are used to promote censorship and bias in our article content. ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:32, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

You know, you might actually get some help if you were a slightly bit more specific. General statements about how things are going aren't going to result in much. Can you provide some examples? Also, WP:UNDUE is probably the policy you're more concerned about than WP:NPOV. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:39, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Here are some diffs of an "editor" who has been asked dozens of times to leave me alone and yet continues to stalk, harass, and taunt me. I have never seen them contribute to an article, so I don't see how any of their comments could relate to content contributing or collegial collaboration. , , , , , , , and there's also more discussion of me on their talk page. I've tried to ignore it, but it hasn't stopped. I'd just like them to leave me alone and to do their ummm... whatever you want to call it away from editors who don't welcome this activity. I haven't looked closely at all these diffs, they're just a recent sampling, but I don't think any of the discussions involved them at all so their comments were wholly unwelcome and not constructive. ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:51, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

What does all this about Baseball Bugs (and have you notified him of this) have to do with NPOV? - NeutralHomer • Talk • 02:56, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

• Well, since we won't actually name the editor in question, I'll let him know that he is being discussed. Protonk (talk) 02:57, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Without having seen this, I'd left a note on Bugs' talk page asking that editor to avoid commenting on or interacting with ChildofMidnight (which Bugs had said would happen in the past). Rather than this turning into another endless Obama thread that produces nothing other than acrimony, can ChildofMidnight and Baseball Bugs both agree to not interact with (or comment on) one another? It should not be that hard. ChildofMidnight already sounds amenable to that, and as I said Bugs was at one point. I think that addresses the core issue, so let's see what the two editors have to say about that proposal before going any further. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 02:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I think in this case, regardless of what you feel about the politics at the heart of the dispute, these comments are over-the-line in terms of WP:NPA and Bugs needs to stop this sort of thing. Calling someone names like "POV-pusher" is probably not very helpful in terms of resolving any dispute, and clearly violates the letter and spirit of WP:NPA. I think he needs to step back and stop making these sorts of comments at Misplaced Pages. Furthermore, it would help if Bugs and CoM agreed to stop interacting with each other across any articles if possible. Of importance here is a recent ArbCom case as well, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Obama articles. --Jayron32 03:04, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Neutral Homer and Tarc engage in similar behavior towards me. I should point out that I went to BB's talk page to notify them, but Protonk beat me to it. BB has also been asked to cease this behavior by numerous admins. I prefer to edit content than to chase down diffs. But if I need to I will try to come up with some. ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:02, 7 August 2009 (UTC) (ec multiples)

ChildofMidnight, are you amenable to the solution put forward above, i.e. that you just completely avoid each other, assuming Baseball Bugs agrees to and abides by it as well? That seems to me the best way forward. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 03:07, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Sounds fantastic to me. If there's a discussion that actually invovles us both like an Arbcom issue or something fine. But he can keep to his section and I'll keep to mine. Otherwise I don't see any need to interact at all. ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:16, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

One point of clarification to Jayron, none of his comments are on articles or article related, or in discussion involving him. Since I'm optimistic that at some point Arbcom will end their improper censoring of me, I don't want to be limited on what articles I can work on. I don't follow BB anywhere, but it's possible we'd be working on an article at the same time. In that case I think avoiding discussing each other directly would be fine. I already have enough people after me trying to chase me off wikipedia and off articles. I don't want to have to keep track of where he may or may not be. Like I said, I won't comment to or about him. No problem. That's the status quo for me at this point. ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:28, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree that Bugs has been clearly pushing your buttons. You've also been pushing his buttons and other people's buttons (your comments to ProtonK on his talk page on Aug 2, before Bugs chimed in; elsewhere). You and Bugs pushing each others buttons is actually staying remarkably restrained overall for how many times each of you did something to each other.

I agree that this is not constructive or civil. We have a tendency to let "experienced users" who get grumpy to poke each other for a while, if nobody complains then we assume everyone's thick skinned and can handle it. I think that's probably a mistake - even if you aren't personally insulted, it does bring down the level of conversation and drive away third parties, and the odds that someone will eventually become actually upset and it be a real problem are high.

Without ascribing any root cause / fault - if Bugs can not follow any of your comments, if you can not leave comments folllowing his, or like those you left for ProtonK on the 2nd, and you and Bugs stay separated for a while it would probably be for the best. The voluntary mutual topic ban Bigtimeinpeace proposed seems like a great idea to me. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:34, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually I need to clarify this stattement after reading GWH's comment. I absolutely have not pushed BBs buttons. I avoid that editor like the plague. Your comment is a gross distortion and unless you have diffs to back it up I suggest you strike it.

My comments to Protonk related to his allegations against me which he didn't back off even when they were proved wrong. That behavior, in violation of AGF, was totally unacceptable and I let him know that. I haven't pursued the matter further and had you not brought it up I wouldn't have either. I see it as done and over. As you know from personal experience GWH, when there is behavior that I find disruptive and of serious harm to Misplaced Pages I address it. My comments to other editors and admins don't have anything to do with the stalking, harassing, and hounding of editors with minority viewpoints that promotes censorship, and you're conflating the two is disruptive and somewhat outrageous. I don't pursue those I disagree with on articles and I try to stay focused on article content and to leave personal opinions out of it. Despite the smears against me I am quite moderate, I avoid discussing my personal politics except in a discrete and humorous way, and I think it's important that various viewpoints are represented consistent with our core policy as cited above. ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:54, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

• CoM, I don't "engage" in any action against you, I just don't like your actions on some subjects. Like the Obama thread above. YOu are on restriction from Obama articles and talk pages but you knowingly post at an ANI thread about Obama doing an end run around your restrictions. That is bad faith editing. Then when you are called on it, Baseball Bugs or I have been mean to you or some crap. Act right, follow the rules, do something other than getting in people's business, follow your restrictions and maybe...just maybe...people wouldn't be on your case about everything. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 03:40, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

If CoM would apologize for this then he would need never hear from me again, even when I catch him violating his topic ban the next time, and the next time, etc. He's driven me away from political pages; he's tried to box me in in various ways; he constantly makes accusations against me (and many others); but I'll be damned if I'm going to let him dictate my efforts here any further. Baseball Bugs carrots 05:46, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Bugs you link to that thread often, though I'm not sure why it still bothers you so much since it was literally five months ago (I'm also not sure exactly what aspect of it bothers you since there is so much stuff there). Can't you just let it go at this point, and do you really think an apology will actually be forthcoming, or that requiring someone to apologize on-Wiki before moving forward is helpful? I'm genuinely having trouble understanding what you want here. You and C of M do not get along in the slightest and are seemingly never going to agree on much of anything surrounding this tiff. Why not just back away, which C of M says he will do, and avoid one another, which is what you said you were going to do a month ago? The dispute between the two of you wastes other editors' time and accomplishes literall nothing, so can't we just squash the beef (mmmmmm....squash beef....) right here and now? --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 06:12, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Michael Vick

I worked today to put references and clean up the Michael Vick page to a respectable information outlet. Another user who is obviously watching the page failed to discuss my work on the talk page and instead reverted everything. I included references in the page that were not there before and I also removed content that was blatantly stated twice (in the lead and down below) so that the article would look more encyclopedic. Rather than just reverting the work and thus creating an editing war, I am coming to this board for some help. I realize Michael Vick's page will require some work to fix, but how should this be approached? Thank you for your help.keystoneridin! (talk) 03:38, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

You should review our manual of style and discuss this on the article talk page. It is routine for large articles to have relatively long summarizing introductions, as that article had before you removed much of the introduction section.

You added one reference, a link to thesmokinggun.com, which is often not the best of references but in this case contained the actual (primary source) indictment. You should also look at our reliable sources policy - we prefer secondary sources (such as news coverage or history books) to primary sources (actual source documents) in most cases, as secondary sources have already done useful synthesis which we do not want done directly on Misplaced Pages. You should also discuss that on the article talk page.

Thanks. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:48, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your help. I appreciate it.keystoneridin! (talk) 03:50, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

1. http://search.cochrane.org/search?q=homeopathy+Oscillococcinum&restrict=cochrane_org&scso_colloquia_abstracts=colloquia_abstracts&client=my_collection&scso_evidence_aid=evidence_aid&scso_review_abstracts=Cochrane_reviews&lr=&output=xml_no_dtd&sub_site_name=Cochrane.org_search&filter=0&site=my_collection&ie=&oe=&scso_registered_titles=registered_titles&scso_newsletters=newsletters&scso_cochrane_org=whole_site&proxystylesheet=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cochrane.org%2Fsearch%2Fgoogle_mini_xsl%2Fcochrane_org.xsl
2. http://www.cochrane.org/news/articles/CD001957_standard.pdf

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