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Revision as of 02:23, 11 August 2009

Pages are moved to sub-archives based on their nomination date, not closure date.

See the Misplaced Pages:Featured article removal candidates/archive for nominations under the previous FARC process.

Archives

Kept status

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by YellowAssessmentMonkey 02:02, 7 August 2009 .

The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II

Review commentary

Notified User:Theleftorium, User:Gary King, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Strategy games, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Middle-earth, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Video games, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Xbox

Violation of 1.C.

Citations do not match the content provided in the article from top to bottom. Issue was first raised by myself here with follow ups here. I have performed a cursory check of -every- cited section and have found inconsistencies and statements that are far from what the sources state. The most egregious comes in the form of this:

Electronic Arts added new battles to the story, and introduced original characters to the game, such as Gorkil the Goblin King. Some characters were altered in their appearances, abilities, and roles; for instance, a combat role in the game is given to Tom Bombadil, a merry hermit from The Lord of the Rings.

which is cited to: "Tolkien, J. R. R. (1954), The Fellowship of the Ring, The Lord of the Rings, Boston: Houghton Mifflin (published 1987), "The Old Forest", ISBN 0-395-08254-4". It is 100% unacceptable to think a 1954 book is a reliable source for information on Electronic Arts or that such information would not fail WP:V and WP:OR. The whole article is contaminated and every single line and source will need to have to be rechecked and compared to the original language to ensure that the citations actually match everything cited. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:09, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

  • Comment I concur with OR's assessment after looking at the article. This issue appears to have escaped us at FAC. It is quite serious and an audit of each source is going to be needed. --Laser brain (talk) 00:23, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
    Thank you for bringing this up. I don't really know what I was thinking when I added the sources, but I certainly did not just "randomly" threw them down. I will do my best to address your concerns (I've already started, as you can see). :) TheLeftorium 11:36, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concern are citations/accuracy of source agreement. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. FAQ? YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:28, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
  • The offending material listed above has been removed, but a more thorough check would have to be made to see if everything is clean. This suggests a set of new references for the more detail list of problems that was provided to Theleftorium before. My opinion is neutral as of this moment (it was previously de-list). Ottava Rima (talk) 04:03, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
    • I'm going to try and take a look through at least some of the new refs and see if they match up. Hopefully I'll be done by tomorrow and will fill in here. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 01:54, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
      • Discrepancy: "Some characters were altered in their appearances, abilities, and roles; for instance, a combat role in the game is given to Tom Bombadil," is sourced to , but no mention is made anywhere in the document. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 19:01, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
        • My bad. As you can see, ref #9 and #10 are duplicates. I was actually supposed to used this to source the Tom Bombadil statement, but I mixed up the links when I was adding them article. It's been fixed now. (Note: I will be be gone tomorrow and won't be able to respond to any comments until Friday.) Theleftorium 19:22, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment What's the status of this? Dabomb87 (talk) 03:53, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I will go through the article again today to see if there's any original research left. Theleftorium 09:13, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
I found some more original research but I added sources to back it up. I've checked pretty much the whole article now and I can't find any more problems with it (though it's possible I might have missed something, so feel free to check). :) Theleftorium 14:10, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
I suggest asking David, Ottava, and LB to check to make sure their concerns are resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 14:19, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Ottava has indicated that his concerns have been resolved. I left a message at David Fuch's talk page, too. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:11, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
From my checks I believe the concerns about OR and citations have been addressed. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 21:24, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Note Alternative text for images has been added. Dabomb87 (talk) 18:45, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Keep. Let me state outright that I've never been a fan of video game articles because they're forced to rely so much on non-objective reviews and possibly unreliable Internet citations. That said, this article appears to follow the FA criteria. It's adequately cited, and while a quick copy edit fixed a few things, there's no big problems with article prose. I'd suggest someone do a detailed cleanup of any remaining elements of BritEng (the majority of the article was written in AmEng, so that's what I edited to). Other than that, the pictures are adequately backed up, and everything looks OK to me. JKBrooks85 (talk) 09:54, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep Original concerns have been addressed, and nothing else has arisen. Besides the now-resolved OR, I'm fairly confident this meets FA standards in other areas, as this was a late 2008 promotion (disclosure: I reviewed and supported this at the FAC). Dabomb87 (talk) 03:50, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by YellowAssessmentMonkey 02:02, 7 August 2009 .

Attalus I

Review commentary

Notified: Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Biography, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Military history, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Military history/Classical warfare task force, User talk:Paul August, User talk:Sj.

FA from 2004, referencing/1c issues. Article seems to rely way too heavily on primary sources as opposed to secondary sources. Could use an overall copyedit pass and review for flow. Image review and cleanup/improvement of the individual image pages would also be helpful, images include: File:AtaloPergamo.jpg, File:Dying gaul.jpg, File:AttalusICorrected.jpg, and File:Attalus I coin depicting Philetairos.jpg. Cirt (talk) 07:02, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeap, it relies mainly on primary sources, although secondary sources are also used. It was one of the first FAs I read before my own ventures, and almost 3 years later I still regard it as FA quality. I am willing however to help adding secondary sources (through googlebooking only), if that is ok with Paul.--Yannismarou (talk) 18:14, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
Yes, of course. Paul August ☎ 04:00, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I'll start working, maybe as soon as now (!); definitely during the weekend.--Yannismarou (talk) 21:02, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, copyrights. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 01:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Are there any suggestions for changes to the article? Paul August ☎ 18:16, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Main concern iterated above is heavy usage of primary as opposed to secondary sources. Cirt (talk) 23:14, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
  • O! We are fast here. As I understand the main argument for delisting is citations. I'll express my opinion about copy-editing as well, but, allow me to tell you, that, if somebody argues that the prose is not satisfactory, he/she has to present some concrete examples to support his/her arguments. Otherwise ... In the meantime, I'll start adding secondary sources. As I have made clear, I still believe that this is a FA, and for the time being I am weak keep.--Yannismarou (talk) 20:45, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
  • On this subject, from these sources, secondary sources are more likely to summarize Livy than emend him. Most of the obvious secondary sources seem to have already been listed; I would also look at the first chapters of Magie's History of Roman Asia, for an idea of what is important enough to list in comparable space. It would be a virtuous act to check them thoroughly; but it's unlikely to change the text much. Justin (for what he is worth) should also be a primary source, IIRC. Weak keep Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:44, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Turn to full keep. Most primary sources are now backed by secondary ones; and I don't think that any event still cited by only prim sources has been ever questioned. Agree with Sept: secondary sources don't add much; they just summarize Livy without amending him. I promise I'll check Justin.--Yannismarou (talk) 14:15, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Surely not-too-far-off-keep (?) - I changed the cquotes to quotes, and tweaked a bit of prose here and there, but this subject area is not my forte, and I feared intorducing ambiguity with too much reduction of repetition. Surely the basic biographic details in Early life are easy to source (?) Please keep this open a bit longer and I can see what I can find. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:58, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Perhaps some of the present tenses in the verbs should be past tense. Shouldn't there be a source for the conjectures in "Early life"? "twenty decked Rhodian warships" could be unclear to some: 20 decks or 20 ships? I think I would prefer the Magna Mater cult to appear in chronological sequence between the First Macedonian War and Macedonian hostilities of 201 BC rather than at the end. DrKiernan (talk) 12:08, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delist (but obviously willing to change in response to edits) Neutral (for explanation see below Paul August's summary comments). The heavy reliance on primary sources itself requires commentary early in the piece. A section is needed along the following lines: "Attalus life is known primarily from Livy, while his blah blah. Scholars' analysis of Livy... (explain what the secondary sources say about Livy's historiography etc)" etc Livy wrote two hundred years after Attalus's time. This could also open a debate about the definition of a primary source, but leaving that aside, the extensive reliance on Roman/ Greek sources requires serious discussion before they are then effectively adopted as reliable. I would also recommend the text be re-styled to occasionally remind us of the basis in sources. "Livy reports that.."; "Polybius's report of the battle described..."

:Other issues:

  • Early life is either seriously under-referenced, WP:OR, or both.
  • Is there really no archaeological research at all to contribute to a contemporary analysis of this historical figure? I find the lack of archaeological research strange.
  • Occasional clunky prose: "The spoils from Oreus had been reserved for Sulpicius, who returned there, while Attalus stayed to collect the spoils from Opus." 'Spoils' used twice, and not felicitous phrasing either. Better might be "Sulpicius returned to the spoils reserved for him from the sacking of Oreus, while Attalus stayed to claim those from Opus" (or similar). "Attalus, with his fleet at Aegina, received an embassy from Athens, to come to the city for consultations." Better might be "Attalus, with his fleet at Aegina, received an embassy from Athens inviting him to consultations in the city." There are others that could be improved.
  • Why is the section "Introduction of the cult of the Magna Mater to Rome" tacked on after the family section, which reads as though it should be the conclusion to the article, with its final lines about succession and death? hamiltonstone (talk) 05:21, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Note: I've just got my hands (again) on the most authoritative work on the subject, Esther Hansen's The Attalids of Pergamon (1971). I'll try to review the article for accuracy, giving more granular citations, where it seems appropriate. Paul August ☎ 16:00, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
I've added several cites to the "Early life" section, which I think is now well sourced (if not over sourced). With this and the sourcing that Yannismarou has done, I think the article has adequate sourcing. If other editors think that more sourcing is still required, please say so, and I will try to provide it. Thanks to all for trying to improve the article. Paul August ☎ 18:44, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I must say Hamiltonstone raises some interesting poitns above. Kudos on the early life sourcing. Is there anything in the book about archaeological evidence? I am not familiar with doing ancient hsitory articles, so I could imagine this might vary tremednously from figure to figure. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:37, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Hamilton raises indeed some interesting points, but I cannot agree (and I did not agree even before Paul's further citing) with his first remark. His second remark is interesting, and I also want such a section (an overall assessment of the x personality) in the articles I write, but I do not believe that such an analysis is a prerquisite for FA status; and it is not a standard for biography articles. In any case, such a section should not be necessarily based on archaelogical evidence, as Hamilton seems to imply. Prose issues should be taken care (and maybe they have already been; I did not follow the recent edit history of the article), but, as far as the last remark is concerned, I am also not sure I can agree. In terms of structure, if an important aspect in a person's biography cannot be related to the linear narration of a biography, then it can be placed at the end of the latter; and I can't see any wrong in that, unless something better can be proposed. About archaelogical evidence in particular, I'll contribute in case I find something in the net, google book etc. In any case, keep in mind that the article has already more sources than the average FAs!--Yannismarou (talk) 14:39, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
    • I would not be surprised if there were a serious absence of epigraphical evidence. Pergamum was a capital for a century after Attalus, and a provincial capital for centuries thereafter; Attalus' monuments are likely to have been rebuilt. If secondary sources have nothing to add to Livy, it is likely that there is no evidence on which to base it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:48, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Some responses.
  • Paul's intensive work in the last couple of days is improving this greatly, and yes, early life is now sorted.
  • I am not sure whether Yannismarou is counting my intro text as my first remark (about the need to discuss the primary sources in the article), or is referring only to the bullet points. Based on Y's reference to archaeological evidence in Y's text, I am assuming s/he has counted just the bullet points, in which case I am very surprised at these observations. Y's own essay on FAs talks about in-line cites being better every sentence than every para: the early life section had only one in-line cite when i viewed it, and that was at the end of the first sentence. Y concludes his/her remarks by saying that this has more sources than the average FA. I don't think that is relevant - this is a matter of being, per FA criteria, "a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature on the topic". If the literature is there, it should be covered. I'm not an expert, hence my query (rather than statement) re archaeological evidence - if it isn't there, then fair enough. Interestingly i note from the footnotes that "inscriptions are the main source of information on Attalus' war with the Galatians", suggesting that archaeological evidence (and i mean not only epigraphical) may be relevant, even important, to the subject. BTW I didn't think this article had many in-line cites by FA standards, so I mustn't be reading the ones that are 'lighter on'.
  • Finally, I would again emphasise my point about a need to discuss the sources in the article. If we are relying heavily on Livy, I would suggest an analysis of the implications of such reliance is essential. Otherwise the article may not meet the FA criteria of being comprehensive in "placing the subject in context". It doesn't have to be a huge deal, but it should be there. For examples, see some of the material in the 'background' section of Walter de Coventre (FA), the 'historical record' section of Theramenes (FA), or the 'sources' section of Donnchadh, Earl of Carrick (current FAC). hamiltonstone (talk) 00:37, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
    • I don't think that note on Theramenes adds much; it omits the minor details that Lysias, Thucydides and Xenophon are contemporaries and that Diodorus is an unreliable compiler of some four centuries later, who may be copying a good source on this subject. Quellenkritik should be done right, or not at all. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:32, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Septentrionalis commented "Quellenkritik should be done right, or not at all." This is FA: it should be done right, I would not have thought 'not at all' was an option.:-) hamiltonstone (talk) 03:54, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Note: I'm continuing to work through the article, checking sources, and adding, or increasing granularity where appropriate. I've done so through the section "Macedonian hostilities of 201 BC". I'll attempt to address other concerns above when I've completed my review. Paul August ☎ 15:14, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Noted YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 02:47, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
  • I've completed a detailed review of the article. Some comments:
  • Acurracy: I have (I believe) checked every assertion of fact in the article, and I can write with some confidence that each is well supported by the cited references. If anyone has any concerns about any of the assertions in the article I urge them to please say so and I will attempt to address them.
  • Quality of sources: Esther Hansen's The Attalids of Pergamon (531 pages), is by far the most comprehensive work on the subject (for example her chapter on The Reign of Attalus I runs to 44 pages), and while perhaps a bit dated (1971), remains authoritative, particularly so for the purposes of an encyclopedia article (rather than say a research paper). The other secondary sources (mostly provided by Yannismarou) -- all of very high quality -- mostly serve to corroborate Hansen.
  • Reliance on primary sources: I believe that those editors who have expressed concerns about the possible over-reliance on primary sources may be misapprehending the situation. Although by glancing through the "Notes" section, one can see many citations to Livy, Polybius, etc, — except for the handful of places in the text where direct quotes have been used — there has been virtually no reliance on primary sources at all. Rather it has been Hansen's work which has been almost universally relied upon. As far as I can tell the article contains no "original research" and no interpretations of primary sources independent of the secondary sources.
  • Granularity of sourcing: There are various opinions on how granular source citing ought to be. Should each paragraph have it's own citation?, each sentence? each assertion? In my view no universal rule like this can make sense. This must be judged on a case by case basis, and only by reading and understanding what is being written and its context. You most certainly can't simply scan your eyes down an article and judge the adequacy of sourcing by the density of citations (no offense meant to anyone, and I'm not saying that anyone on this page has done that).
  • Commentary on primary sources: hamiltonstone, has suggested above that "the heavy reliance on primary sources itself requires commentary early in the piece". I'm not sure that such a thing would be a particularly useful addition to the article. The primary sources used here are the standard ones for this period and locale. Their idiosyncrasies are well understood, and have no particular significance for this article. Most of what might be said about these sources in relation to this subject would pertain to any article concerning this period and locale. Moreover as I've written above, there has in fact been little reliance on primary sources, and then only to augment and flesh out a bit the secondary sources. Whatever issues there are concerning the primary sources have presumably already been taken into account by the secondary sources.
  • Archaeological evidence: hamiltonstone has written: Is there really no archaeological research at all to contribute to a contemporary analysis of this historical figure? I find the lack of archaeological research strange. There has, of course, been significant archaeological research pertaining to Pergamon and the Attalid period. And bits of this research can be seen explicitly in the form of epigraphical evidence in three places in the article, (see notes 10, 48 and 53), although such epigraphical evidence underlies and supports other content in the article. Otherwise, as with the proposed commentary on secondary sources, there is little of particular significance to this subject and the secondary sources have presumably made appropriate use of all relevant archaeological data.
  • "Magna Mater" section: Two editors, DrKiernan and hamiltonstone, suggest above that the section on the "Magna Mater" should follow (chronologically) the section on the "First Macedonian War". I have moved the section accordingly.
  • Tense: DrKiernan has written above Perhaps some of the present tenses in the verbs should be past tense, but having reread the article, I find no use of present tense at all.
Paul August ☎ 20:24, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Thank you Paul for your excellent work. I have no problems with the article now retaining its FA listing. I am describing my position as 'neutral' because I am undecided what to think about the lack of explicit treatment of primary sources. On the one hand, I think Paul's point, that "whatever issues there are concerning the primary sources have presumably already been taken into account by the secondary sources", is well made. That is indeed a very good reason to ensure the text is fully referenced to the secondary sources, as Paul has done here. It incidentally also takes care of my query about the archaeology. On the other hand, I don't accept the comment "The primary sources used here are the standard ones for this period and locale. Their idiosyncrasies are well understood". To those familiar with the field, maybe. To a wikipedia reader, that would certainly not be the case. Does that mean these points would need to be raised in every article that relied upon them? Perhaps, but only briefly. I was never suggesting an entire essay. However, I think the fact that the Livy article, for example, does talk about the nature of his writings, together with the citation of secondary sources throughout the current article, ensures there is not a significant problem. Probably I am thinking that if FA is the very best that WP has, then it might indeed go as far as discussing the sources. But no matter. The article is very good, and I am clearly in a minority on this. Thank you Paul and others for their efforts here. hamiltonstone (talk) 04:45, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
    My comments on primary sourcing may reflect an over-acute awareness that the primary sources for this article are (as classical history goes) unusually sound: Livy has no axe to grind, and is confirmed in essence by Polybius; to make a point of their flaws is undue weight. The modern historian's expectation of contemporary unbiased sources, compounded with documentary and archival evidence, is (for almost all of ancient history) starkly unrealistic; it may be sort of true for a few years in Athens and Rome, and for a narrow level of information (ruler's epithets, but not dynastic politics) in Egypt. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:34, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
? Paul August ☎ 03:21, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Three more comments:
  • Thanks: To everyone for working to improve the article. Special thanks to Yannismarou for his work on the article and comments above, and also to hamiltonstone and PMAnderson for their thoughtful remarks.
  • Unsastisfied conserns?: Some editors who have expressed concerns above with the article have not commented upon the subsequent changes and discussion. I would appreciate knowing if their concerns are still unsatisfied.
  • FA status: I don't understand how the FA process works, but to be clear, I have No opinion as to whether this article ought or ought not to be an FA.
Paul August ☎ 18:32, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by Raul654 03:03, 3 August 2009 .

Cane toad

Review commentary

Notified:WikiProject Amphibians and Reptiles, LiquidGhoul

I have split out Cane toad (Australia) since it was a large part of the article (and is also deserving of its own article). Having split out such a large amount of content a FAR is probably needed. I had also found a number of other issues that should not have occurred in a FA. There was a lack of punctuation and poor structure, and before I split out the information about cane toads in Australia the article lacked balance. I have corrects some of these issues. On a minor note I created the Cane toads dab page to get rid of the two links and explanations in the hatnote. Makes it look a little nicer! -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 09:15, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Article size should not have anything to do with FA status. Splitting out Cane toads in Australia is surely a requisite for the ability to retain the FA status. The info I split out gave the article an imbalance toward Australian info - especially with the large "In popular culture" section. It is interesting to note that the new article has already been rated as C Class. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 06:08, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
Well of course it'd be rated C-class as it was well referenced and comprehensive. My point is that the rest of the article probably needed expanding, not the aussie bit needing contracting. There is also a guideline not to make radical changes to Featured Articles, and also some form of adequate summary should have been left on the article page. I am sad as I have seen many of these daughter pages receive little traffic compared with the mother article, even when the link is very obvious. As the article is now unstable, its Featured status should probably be revoked on the spot. Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:15, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
The Aussie info is not contracted - it is simply moved. I suspect that the info about other countries is not likely to be expanded and the Aussies stuff may be of a higher notability (I will expand the summary at cane toad at some stage). I don't think the traffic difference is a valid argument. Cane toads is of interest to a wider sector than cane toads in Australia - and that is another reason to split the article. I was not aware of a FA guideline re splitting but I guess being bold can override a guideline. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 09:23, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
  • In my opinion this FAR was a bit premature since the FAR was opened moments after the split was made. Discussion in the article's talk page would be better to avoid redundant discussions. Joelito (talk) 15:04, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
The FA was not justified before the split IMHO. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 07:18, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
The article was in overall better shape before the split. You've left the article with stubby, single sentence sections where previously there were fully fleshed out paragraphs in a single section. Although, Joelito's point was that there should have been a discussion about the split on the talk page prior to an FAR. Jay32183 (talk) 07:44, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
The Aussie stuff was spread throughout the article and giving it its own article cleaned it up. The stubby section I left can be expanded and I will do it as soon as possible. I saw no need for a discussion on something that looked like it needed doing. It was hardly a case of being overly bold. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 11:08, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Now is not a good time to review this article, given that major changes to the article have been attempted in the last few days, but not completed, and there is a current discussion about the split/merge on the article's talk page. Apart from this, there has been little change to the article over the past year, so I think it's a bit premature to strip it of FA status on the basis that it's unstable. Doing that would set a very bad precedent, in my view. To avoid wasted effort, let's put this review on hold until the talk page discussions and any action resulting from them are complete. -- Avenue (talk) 09:06, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Agree with this. I had intended the original as a rhetorical question and hope it keeps FA. Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:24, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
  • According to the Featured article criteria "A featured article exemplifies our very best work and features professional standards of writing, presentation and sourcing." Even before I split out the Aussie section the article should not have fitted that description. WP can do much better than what was on offer in the article. Also, article stability is but one of the FA criteria. A few points to justify remove of the FA status (in no particular order):
    • A lengthy hatnote that should have only been one link
    • lack of punctuation
    • Presence of redlinks
    • A lengthy "in popular culture" section all about Australia yet the sections on other countries were very short and generally lacked references.
    • Poor article flow in the "Introductions" section. It should at least have Level 3 headers for individual countries
    • Unsourced statements since April 2008
    • The Notes and References should be one section (I notice that the References header has since been removed. Not all the References are linked to the article text. It should therefore be in a Further reading section. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 11:08, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
  • I think the refs are not linked to inlined refs as they predate a big move to inlining. So are probably relevant to the text. Hopefully, they can be accessed and we can determine which references what and help get the text inlined. I don't think a further reading section will eb required. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:15, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Delist for the following reasons:
    • presence of redlinks
    • references that could be inline rather than listed after the refs section
    • lack of info on the introductions to the different countries
Note that I had split out the info pertinent to Australia to the Cane toad (Australia) article. See the discussion at Talk:Cane toad#Merger proposal. I had also fixed a number of glaring reasons why the article should not have had a FA status. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 03:50, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment: I am thinking probably Hold for the time being as from the discussion above, there appear to be a few issues left to resolve that have attention from editors that could potentially address them. I agree with Casliber (talk · contribs) that instead of spinning out material, it may have been best to instead expand the other subsections. However, there do appear to be some 1c issues that should be addressed. Cirt (talk) 07:15, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment - I'm currently working through the article to address the referencing and comprehensiveness issues. It should take about a week to see that complete. On the plus side, there are sufficient references available to meet any 1c concerns. - Bilby (talk) 01:45, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Comments:
In the description section, it's unclear to what the length is referring to in the first sentence: the male or female toad.
The tadpoles' length mention needs an Imperial conversion.
done YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Toadlet size (in mm) needs an Imperial conversion.
done YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Snout-vent length needs an Imperial conversion.
done YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
"Eat widely" is unclear ... is that area or the variety of their food?
done YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
"The cane toad" and "cane toads" are used interchangably throughout the article. I'd suggest picking one style and sticking with it.
It adds a bit of variety I guess, but as it isn't the same as using different common nouns or formats, but just a plural/singular is it a big problem? YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Done - I've changed most of the instances of "cane toads' to "the cane toad", as the former suggests more than one type of cane toad, while the latter is clearer. I've left "cane toads" only where the discussion seemed related to individual instances of the cane toad, rather than the species. - Bilby (talk) 03:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I added a citation needed tag at the end of the predators section.
Bilby got rid of the sentence YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Could you add a citation for the thought that it was introduced to "most Caribbean islands"?
done YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
In Martinique, what does it mean that the toads were "successful"?
done YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
It's a bad idea to start a sentence with a numeral, as in 1884.
done YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
In Fiji, "the government of" what?
done YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
How were toads used in human pregnancy tests? It's not mentioned until the New Guinea section, when it's thrown in casually, even though that prompts strong questions.
It is explained in the "uses" section at the bottom. It's hard to fit it in the intros part without doubling up YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Done - I've added a little bit of context to the pregnancy testing reference in the New Guinea section, and extended the material in "Uses" for balance. (I found a really cool source, so it made me happy). - Bilby (talk) 04:43, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
  • One final thing ... that last sentence of the lede seems a bit awkward. I don't understand the use of "farmers" since other people's pets also are apt to eat the toads, and livestock are herbivorous. JKBrooks85 (talk) 10:57, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concern is comprehensiveness as a result of section split. Joelito (talk) 22:59, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
  • I'm on them. :) I'm marking missing ones as I go, but given the topic citations won't be a problem. There's sufficient, readily available material to source each statement, although it will take a few more days to be done. - Bilby (talk) 17:10, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm not worried about the citation for Chaunus marinus, I can see that this name is used in more modern literature on cane toads. It's the identifications that confuse me. The rococo toad is given an unfamiliar Latin name, surely it should be Bufo paracnemis? I'm inclined to think that Schneider's toad is something else. I think this section is rather confused, and should be removed until something better can be written with verifiable sources. DrKiernan (talk) 14:18, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree - I've removed those sections, as they don't seem core and I've been unable to find any support for them in the literature. - Bilby (talk) 17:06, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Sorry - I had missed that fact tag. That's a tad embarrassing. It should be covered now. - Bilby (talk) 10:04, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm onto it. Yes I think the prose could be improved quite a lot. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 06:57, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Removed. DrKiernan (talk) 11:42, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
  • The prose is mostly OK, but needs attention in quite a few places; I've done a little cleaning up. But I haven't fixed multi-bloopers like this: "... it was introduced to Puerto Rico in the early 20th century in the hope that it would be more effective against a beetle infestation that was ravaging the sugar cane plantations. It was, and following the economic success of the toad in negating the beetles ...". If this FA retained, I think the authors should locate copy-editors who will spruce it up. ... or now? Tony (talk) 10:56, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Did a round of full copyedit YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 07:42, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
I will copyedit more this weekend. Awadewit (talk) 23:32, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
I've done some copyediting now - it looks good to me. Awadewit (talk) 01:20, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by Raul654 03:03, 3 August 2009 .

Lake Burley Griffin

Review commentary

Notified: Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Lakes, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Australia, User talk:Ta bu shi da yu.

FA from 2004, referencing/1c issues throughout. Could use copyedit/review for flow, check for comprehensiveness, and review of images (14 images in article). Cirt (talk) 12:32, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

  • The article has comprehensiveness issues which I wasn't aware of at the time, but picked up in later research. There needs to be an entirely new section of the history covering before it was built - there were quite substantial political battles over the design of the lake, and the entire basin near the museum and the university was nearly not bueilt so as to save the sporting fields and racecourse that were on the site at the time. (The article doesn't even mention that they were there.) I also think the layout of the article isn't great - some strange sections, some quite short sections, and lots of dot points. It doesn't flow all that well either. Rebecca (talk) 13:51, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Dot points all gone YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 08:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
I've done that YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 00:33, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
I dunno. Perhaps you could write a list of things that are missing... Bilby (talk · contribs) completely rewrote two things on the run while they were on FAR last year. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 00:33, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Things that the article really needs to mention:
The early proposals for the lake: the Griffin plan, and how this was altered to form the current one. This would probably require hitting up books on Canberra history.
What was on the site of the lake before it was built (among other things, sporting fields, the first Canberra racecourse, I think it may have also flooded part of what was the suburb of Westlake.)
The political battles fought over the final design. There was serious opposition from within parliament about everything that was to be flooded, and the entire basin over near ANU and the Museum was very nearly removed from the plan. The NLA's online newspaper archive would be okay for this I think; the Canberra Times of the period covered this in quite some detail.
How this was resolved - unfortunately the disputes ran past the end of currently public domain newspapers at the end of 1954 so this isn't online.
The lake naming issue (which is referred to in passing in this article at the moment).
Development along the shores over the years (High Court, Royal Canberra Hospital, National Museum, etc.); fit the implosion in somewhere
Most of these accounted for. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 02:26, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Modern-day development - the Kingston Foreshore (which has actually altered the shape of the lake)
Besides history, it strikes me that a section about the lake and surrounds for public events might be warranted too. Rebecca (talk) 06:35, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
The book by Eric Sparke that I cited in Canberra and this article has about 20 pages on the planning and changes, but not so much on the local amenities type stuff, which is why I could only cite a few things with the current focus of the article when I tried to change it last year. It should be useful and more than thorough enough, I checked ANU, Melb, USyd, UNSW, Adelaide they all have it and chances are every other uni has it as well YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 06:44, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Sparke, Eric (1988). Canberra 1954–1980. Australian Government Publishing Service. ISBN 0-644-08060-4.

Other things that need fixing:

  • The safety section needs to be put into prose, and quite possibly shortened; it's a little bit irrelevant compared to much of the other information
Shortened by removing repetition and merged into recreation as it relates to swimming/boat accidents not crime or water poisoning YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 08:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
  • The "lakeside recreation" section needs to be cleaned up - the subheadings don't work well, and it should integrate public activities on the lake shore
  • "Captain Cook Memorial" should be in a "Features of the lake" or similar section, along with islands, bridges, the Carilion, etc - this would eliminate a lot of the article's flow problems caused by all sorts of random sections
  • "Water quality" is a stub of a section, and looks messy. Perhaps this could form part of a broader environment section, and be mixed with information about fish and bird life in the lake
Fish/aquatics and water pollution are together YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 08:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
  • The lead is also quite short for featured articles these days
Expanded a bit YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 08:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
  • "Design" could do with a paragraph or so on the final proposal for the lake, and a description of the various basins, etc.

If these more stylistic problems were dealt with, it would start to look a lot more salvageable in terms of featured status. Rebecca (talk) 12:12, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Great job on this round of changes - the article is much improved.

  • Under "Walter Burley Griffin's design", there's mention of a casino. I have no idea what this is referring to - the wording is a bit vague.
  • Where would the removed eastern lake have been in terms of modern-day Canberra?
Added Fyshwick YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 08:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
  • I would like to see some more sources used for the history. While the basics are generally covered, it feels like there's a fair bit of potential detail missing - that only one source has been used shows.
  • From "Construction" down, the organisation of the article is very strange. It integrates the sections describing what is there now, with new information about their construction, and it doesn't fit together well. I still think "Bridges" might be better off in a "Lake features" section, along with the former Captain Cook Material section, which seems to have mostly disappeared. This would leave what's left more tightly focused on the actual construction.
  • Not a big fan of the remaining list. This feels like engineeringcruft to me.
Prosified. It is discussed in detail in the official governement report, so I think it should be mentioned YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 03:18, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
  • I think the "Dam" section should be merged into "Final layout", and that this section should be emphasisised a bit more, considering it is the design that actually got built and now forms the basis for the lake.
  • I think the "Lake as city centrepiece" section is a bit odd - the title implies that it's describing the lake now, but it's really a history section. I think calling it something like "Recent history" or "Modern history" might be better. I think this section could be fleshed out more. It also doesn't mention the Kingston Foreshore, which in turn doesn't make much sense unless you mention the almost industrial area that was there before it.
Evolved into history. Kingston added. Nick-D added stuff on the Immigration bridge YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 08:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Tweaked to "Later development into...."

In spite of all of this, much improved - nice job! Rebecca (talk) 06:16, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

In terms of article structure, my suggestion would be:

  • Design - take the final layout section, blow it up, so it doesn't immediately launch into history - same was it was before the latest rewrite
  • Design history
  • Construction
  • Modern history
  • Features of the lake
  • Recreation
  • Environment Rebecca (talk) 07:15, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
This is mostly the way it is now. Still hoping for more comments. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 08:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Infobox: I tried to complete it from the article: catchment area (1865 km² according to or 2100 km² if Molonglo catchment of 78,000 ha is 37% ) and residence time (0.2 years ) are still missing. I'm sure better references are available. -- User:Docu 14:29, 1 June 2009 (UTC), updated 14:41, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


One further thing - what happened to the images? The tiny image in the infobox looks awful, all of the new content is bereft of images, and then there's a cluster at the bottom, none of which are all that great general views of the lake. Rebecca (talk) 12:14, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

The image in the infobox is probably better in the panoramic images section (File:Twilight canberra as seen from telstra tower observation deck.jpg). It's too wide for the infobox. Maybe a cropped version of File:Canberra view from telstra tower.jpg would fit the infobox.
There is a discussion on Talk:Scrivener_Dam#Which_image_where about the images in that article. -- User:Docu
I'm not a fan of that image either. Of the ones in the article, either the one of the Commonwealth Avenue Bridge or the Captain Cook Fountain would be better. The article could do with some pictures taken from less strange locations, though - from the National Capital Exhibition across the lake, or of the National Museum from the other side, or from the Commonwealth Avenue Bridge, would be much better photos. Would also be nice to have a picture of the Kingston Foreshore. Rebecca (talk) 14:24, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Looking at an old version of the article (), all of these images were originally a lot larger, and they, and the article, looked much better for it. Even fixing this up would help things a lot. There's also a dumped image which looks better, IMHO, than several of the ones currently there. Rebecca (talk) 14:26, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I did some sorting over at commons (Commons:Category:Lake Burley Griffin and Commons:Lake Burley Griffin). As commons seems a bit slow today, I didn't categorize more of the available images .
A few larger panoramas are now at Commons:Lake Burley Griffin. Now that there are imagemaps, we could probably make one that replaces File:Lake burley griffin from telstra Tower2.jpg.
Any selection that illustrates the article's sections and gives an overview of the various parts of the lake and its surroundings, .. is fine with me.
Some of the differences in size might come from the removal of the image sizes from thumbnails. Normally, one would use "thumb" and leave the scaling to the individual users preferences. -- User:Docu
All of these photos are pretty rotten. The larger pictures are really amateurish and taken from too far away, and the close-up ones don't show anything significant of the lake. They're of random stretches of water, and despite living near the lake for four years, I have no idea where they were specifically taken. There's so many good scenic vistas there, but even if we can't get new ones, we have the larger ones that were there before. I have no idea if the change you suggested caused the tiny images, but any image formatting that makes them look like crap in an ordinary browser is probably not good in a featured article. Rebecca (talk) 15:32, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
I can take some pictures at specific points you might like to nominate, perhaps waiting for a sunny day.--Grahame (talk) 02:03, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
That would be fantastic if you could. We just need a couple of good shots of the lake that aren't taken from somewhere Mt Ainslie, or closeups of some obscure point on the lake. The points I suggested might be useful, but anywhere where we can get a decent shot with a few landmarks would be great. Rebecca (talk) 04:13, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Here is a map of images at commons that have been geocoded. Not too many based compared to the number of images available at commons and compared to the number of Misplaced Pages articles listed. -- User:Docu
Thanks for this - that's a great little resource. This image was, I'm sure of it, in the original nomination, and it's the sort of one we should have in the infobox. Rebecca (talk) 04:36, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
There's a stack of photos on related articles that you can plunder. To be honest I don't care about picture quality much (or lack of pictures full stop) YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 05:02, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
I've added some pics at commons, some are a little dark, but there are a couple of cute pics of black swans feeding at the SIEV X memorial.--Grahame (talk) 13:41, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
One of the reasons the layout is a bit "short" is because the layout is already discussed in terms of alterations to the original plan, which is all in the history. Reiterating it all could be a bit repetitive YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 08:38, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Alt refs added side by side YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 07:41, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment: Article looks much better, great work on recent improvements. Might be worthwhile for someone to stub the redlinks and make some of them blue with a couple WP:RS/WP:V sources:
  1. Immigration Bridge
  2. Acton Peninsula
  3. Royal Canberra Hospital
  4. Kings Avenue
  5. Sullivans Creek
  6. Jerrabomberra Creek
  7. Kingston Foreshores Development
  8. Kingston Powerhouse
  9. Regatta Point, Canberra
  10. Black Mountain Peninsula
  11. Yarralumla Yacht Club
Just a suggestion. :) Cheers, Cirt (talk) 08:47, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Immigration Bridge, Acton Peninsula, and Royal Canberra Hospital could all do with articles. Kings Avenue should be at Kings Avenue, Canberra. I think Sullivan's Creek probably warrants an article; raised quite a few engineering challenges in the early days and has been the source of pollution controversies more recently; not sure about Jerrabomberra Creek. The Kingston Foreshore link should be titled either Kingston Foreshore or Kingston Foreshore Redevelopment (actual names). Someone recently wrote an article on the Canberra Glassworks; I'm not sure if a seperate article could be written on the Powerhouse, so a piped link might be okay there. Regatta Point and Black Mountain Peninsula need articles; Yarralumla Yacht Club is probably non-notable. Rebecca (talk) 15:33, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
All created. Except Regatta Point, it's just a thing inside Comm Park unless I am mistaken but some Canberran intervene as I don't know. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 07:41, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Wow, that was a quick response, awesome! Cirt (talk) 07:50, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
They were mostly a bunch of mickey (monkey) mouse 3-liners. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 07:56, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment I also think that the article is now up to scratch, and the 1c problems raised at the start of the review have been addressed. Nick-D (talk) 10:29, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

This is immensely improved over where we started out. It still has problems with not seperating history from describing the current state of the lake very well; the bridges and dam sections, despite being in the middle of the construction section, arent really about the construction, and some important lake features, like the Captain Cook Memorial, are only mentioned in the context of stuff-that-was-built-in-the-70s. This means that key landmarks adjoining the lake which aren't necessarily necessarily notable in a historical sense - like the National Capital Exhibition, or on the other side of the lake, that it practically fronts on to Russell Hill, are not mentioned. Speaking of things adjoining the lake, it mightn't hurt to work Blundell's Cottage into the early history somewhere. I still think a "features of the lake" section would make all this a lot more coherent. Rebecca (talk) 15:33, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Other niggly things: The couple of sentences describing the criticism of the lake's construction are a light on detail, generalising and only use one source. "Later history and development of the lake into a city centrepiece" is an awkward title.

shortened YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 07:41, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Most of this is now solved. I'm still a bit unsure about the way the article mixes history and lake features, but in its current state, I think it works okay. Rebecca (talk) 15:30, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

This paragraph - Government House and the newly-built Australian National University, on the southern and northern shores of the West Lake, both gained a waterfront. The National Museum was later built on the former site of the Royal Canberra Hospital. The public were encouraged to watch the controlled demolition of the hospital, but a girl was killed by flying debris, leading to criticism of the ACT Government. - jumps from 1966 to 1996 without really any implication that three decades has passed, and that the first half of these paragraph occurred chronologically before the previous paragraph in the article (which refers to the Captain Cook Memorial in 1970). I'd be surprised if there was really nothing that could be said about historical developments in a 30 year period there; either way the text needs to be clarified.

Clarified I think. hopefully rearranged better. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 07:41, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Good job with this - nicely solved. Rebecca (talk) 15:30, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

The "Lakeside Recreation" section still isn't stellar. Still of its use for major public events - Skyfire and Floriade are the big two that come to mind, but there are others. The water sports section is a little bit strange; no mention of paddle boating (seen on the lake every day), but windsurfing (which I never saw in four years) is popular? "Opportunities for swimming have decreased"? I'd like to see a source for it ever having been a particularly common activity.

Added info on Floriade and pedalboating, windsurfing is in the book; tweaked to say that swimming has often been banned, although it is already noted that the water is cold. But the book said that swimming occurred without specifying numbers YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 07:41, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Absolutely superb job. The only quibble left is the "...crowded area in terms of swimmers and vessels being in the water" - one thing Lake Burley Griffin will never be is crowded with swimmers! Rebecca (talk) 15:30, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

The recent history section could do with a bit more work, too. One thing which I totally forgot to mention before was the huge controversy over the National Capital Authority's now-axed plans to develop the Albert Hall precinct, which could have seen developments right on the water. The Kingston redevelopment is missing mention of other urban renewal there; the Old Bus Depot Markets and the Canberra Glassworks. The intended expansion to demolish the somewhat historic Causeway neighbourhood next door might warrant a sentence. I think the weight placed on the Immigration Bridge proposal is possibly a bit high; it gets as much article time as the far more notable Kingston changes. Finally, "...luxury apartment complexes were built in the suburb of Kingston, turning into a upper-class area" is a bit strange; Kingston was already an upper-class area.

I thought Kingston was an industrial area.... please fix as required. Added into on powerhouse and glasworks YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 07:41, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Albert Hall mentioned. Help with some of thsi Kingston thing requested YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 07:56, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
You've done a really good job here. The one remaining issue here is the Albert Hall redevelopment; the significance of this is that it would have led to shops/bars/etc on the shores of the lake in the central area (and wasn't just heritage activists; was generally very controversial) - a couple more sentences here would be good (though the refs you've already got there should be enough to support it). As for Kingston; it's an upper-class suburb - it's where the pollies hang out at night when parliament's sitting, but there used to be a strip of industrial facilities along the edge of the lake, which is what's currently being redeveloped. Rebecca (talk) 15:30, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

And as noted above, the article has a fair few redlinks. I've noted above that some could be delinked or piped to existing articles, but there's still a fair few that need writing.

All in all, it's hugely improved, and its already an excellent article. But it could still do with a bit more work to really bring it up to top standard. Rebecca (talk) 15:33, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Ah the tough workout will be good in the long run. Ideally people within a wikiproject know more so they can scrutinise more properly. WP:AUS is better than some others with 100% pile on supports of any old article, that's for sure. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 07:56, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Nice work on the stubs (although I'm still not sure that at least the Yacht Club is notable), but could you please write an actual stub about the Royal Canberra Hospital? The Royal Canberra Hospital was a separate hospital serving Canberra along with the Woden Hospital for a quarter of a century before it closed and the Woden Hospital changed name; it really deserves an article of its own. That, and the one other slight quibble above, and I think we're done here. I'm really impressed with the job you've done here - I've been a damn hard critic with a fair bit of background knowledge, and you've turned out the sources and put together an article many times better than the one you started with. Rebecca (talk) 15:30, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
RCH has its own now. Also, Albert Hall is a bit bigger. Found a bit more ref diversity. Tweaked a few more things. No pain, no gain. Thanks again for your help. A check for typos/copyedit/consistent formatting should suffice now. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 07:51, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Superb. No further objections, well deserving of featured status. I'm very impressed. Rebecca (talk) 07:55, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment - I've gone through the article and corrected several typos, grammar problems, and general overlinking. The flow seems fine to me as currently written. --Laser brain (talk) 17:57, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, quality of references, comprehensiveness. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. FAQ? YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:58, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Done YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 06:49, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep Others have done the dabs, I have fixed the deadlink. Let's close and move on before some other government department changes its name and gives us more links to fix :-) hamiltonstone (talk) 03:33, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

Removed status

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 02:23, 11 August 2009 .

Woody Guthrie

Review commentary

Notified User talk:Dannygutters, User talk:Kmzundel, User talk:Jeremy Butler, User talk:Hertz1888, User talk:Karanacs, User talk:Gaff, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Oklahoma, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Roots music, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Biography and Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Maritime Trades.

Fails "well-written:" This was on the front page yesterday, linked through the featured picture section. I often read Misplaced Pages's featured articles and they are usually quite good but I was rather shocked at this particular one's listing. The writing is slipshod, even sophomoric in many places. I left comments on the talk page regarding a missing word in one sentence. Thereafter I decided to talk about the global issue of demotion and detailed multiple problems in just the first section following the lead. Thereafter I discovered this process. I will repeat what I said on the talk page (with some modifications) and expand.

  • "who lived across from Guthrie and his family in Brooklyn in the 1940s"
    • Across from him how? Across the street? Across the hall? There is an indispensable word missing in this sentence. It can say she lived "nearby to" but it can't say "lived across from Guthrie" as if "across" is a specific thing in and of itself.
A citation would clear this up. Add a citation needed flag to this paragraph.
I don't see how flagging it as needing a citation would clear up this issue, detail the issue or even speak to the issue, though as a separate issue, the paragraph probably should have an inline citations verifying it.—68.237.250.190 (talk) 21:26, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Two issues, (1) the statements in this paragraph are uncited. They need to be. (2) The above note, the across statement is ambigious. (I would guess they mean across the street as the mermaid avenue apartment was a walkup rather than a many unit building. This is just a guess. A citation is needed to clear up both these issues.) If it can't be cited it should be removed. --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 16:14, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Inline citation is useful, but I think unnecessary in the case of this rather minor point. says cite inline for 'likely to be challenged' items. IMO, this paragraph is kind of trivia-ish. Footnote citation should be sufficient, if one can't be found it should just be removed. --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 16:18, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

First section problems

  • "Guthrie was born in Okemah, a small town in Okfuskee County, Oklahoma, to Nora Belle Sherman and Charles Edward Guthrie."
    • Needs a date in relation: "Guthrie was born ON DATE in Okemah..."
  • "...judging from the circumstances surrounding his death by drowning, suffered from the same hereditary disease."
    • Why? What is it about Huntingtons that makes it likely. What were these "circumstances". Why is the mother suspected in the preceding paragraph? It's all very insinuating and muddled and unilluminating. Possibly what's needed is something like Guthrie's mother suffered from Huntington's disease which is know to cause _______. Scholar/in (NAME OF WORK), it is speculated that the multiple coincidental fires were the result of ________."
Many of these complaints are handled by the superscript citations and the convention suggested is inappropriate for wikipedia. the Huntingtons article describes huntingtons and the quote is verbatium from the bio. The circumstances of Ma Guthrie's death ARE muddy and speculatory so the attempt here was to make refrence to avaliable bio work. Um I will respond in the summary area, some of these errors and suggested updates are not addressable in terms of wikipedia convention. --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 18:13, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
  • "According to one story, Guthrie made friends with an African-American blues harmonica player named "George", whom he would watch play at the man's shoe shine booth. Before long, Guthrie bought his own harmonica and began playing along. But in another interview 14 years later, Guthrie claimed that he learned how to play harmonica from a boyhood friend, John Woods, and that his earlier story was false."
    • "One story" is poor; the source of this "story" should be attributed in text; the "story" is referred to later in the paragraph by relation to "another interview", but we never knew the earlier "story" was an "interview".
  • "He seemed to have a natural affinity for music and easily learned to "play by ear". He began to use his musical skills around town, playing a song for a sandwich or coins."
    • "Seemed" is waffling; "began to use" should be rethought if you aren't going to provide a time period in close proximity; "a song for a sandwich or coins" is awkward.
  • "Eventually, Guthrie's father sent for his son to come to Texas where little would change for the now-aspiring musician."
    • "Eventually" sounds like a stand in for not having a date; "now-aspiring musician" should never be said without a date or age provided in close proximity; what does "now" refer to? Maybe the move to texas but that is prefaced by the vague "eventually." It doesn't work.
  • Guthrie, now 18..."
    • Poor. "Now 18", like the previous sentence, invokes a specific time that has been reached after somethimg transpired; some event just told which relates to reaching "now". Here, we are provided nothing, so "now" attaches to nothing. It should say "At 18" or "By 18" or something similar.
      • It's not just these specific errors that need to be addressed. The section doesn't flow well. We aren't looking for error free prose; we're looking for compelling prose, and this section is not that.

Next section:

  • "Robbin, who became Guthrie's political mentor, introduced Guthrie to Socialists and Communists in Southern California" and later "Guthrie requested to write a column for the Communist newspaper"
    • Why are Socialists and Communists/Communist capitalized?
  • "...with Germany in 1939 KFVD radio owners did not..."
    • There probably should be a comma after 1939 as a a natural break point, and it's "KFVD's owners" or possibly "KFVD radio's owners", though that does not really work for me because radio is not part of the name of the entity.
  • "the wanderlusting Guthrie"
    • Wanderlust is a noun. I know what is meant but the construction is outré.

I'm not going to go through the whole article but it is a long way from brilliant prose.—141.155.159.210 (talk) 11:55, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Let me highlight a few more:

  • Please review the numerous uses of the word "eventually" throughout, and where appropriate affix an exact time period or span of time in its place.
  • I forget to mention earlier, in "1939 KFVD radio owners did not want its staff", "its" should be "they" using that construction, even if the construction should be changed as a I noted earlier.
  • "Without the daily radio show, prospects for employment diminished" should read "Without the daily radio show, Guthrie's prospects for employment diminished"
  • Although Mary Guthrie was happy to return to Texas, the wanderlusting Guthrie soon after accepted Will Geer's invitation to come to New York City and headed east." besides the wanderlust problem noted earlier, "headed east" is redundant, it should be "thereafter", not "after", and it should be "accepted an invitation from Will Geer to come..."
  • Woody G., N.Y., N.Y., N.Y.". should not have the trailing period
  • Guthrie was paid $180 a week, an impressive salary in 1940. (should be a semicolon)
    • It should not be a semicolon, as semicolons are used to separate two independent clauses. I do wonder if the claim that the salary was "impressive" at the time can be supported. Dabomb87 (talk) 16:37, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
  • "The reunion represented Woody's desire to be a better father and husband." The reunion represented a desire? I think I know what was meant. No, upon further reflection it's just a mess. Maybe "the reunion offered an opportunity..." Not sure. Rewrite or get rid of it.
  • Unfortunately for the newly relocated family, Guthrie quit after the seventh broadcast, claiming he had begun to feel the show was too restricting when he was told what to sing." (poorly constructed and passive voice; missing a hyphen after newly, "unfortunately" presents as editorial opinion). I suggest: "Guthrie chaffed under the radio show's restrictive format which dictated his song choices. Despite the recentness of his family's move, he quit Pipe Smoking Time after only seven broadcasts."
  • "Disgruntled with New York..." Wrong vocabulary choice. We don't get disgruntled WITH something; we are disgruntled BY something. Consider disgusted, fed up, disenchanted...
  • "The original project was projected" this would be great if you were teaching homographs and wanted a sentence example usage, but is frowned upon in formal writing.
    • Still not halfway through the article, and I want to stress that fixing these is not the real issue. Fixing every grammatical mistake, syntax problem, punctuation error, etc. and it still won't turn mediocre writing into compelling prose. What I have highlighted is just a symptom of the root problem.—141.155.159.210 (talk) 18:48, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
NOTE: This article appeared on the main page January 10, 2009. I do not know where the "yesterday" factors in here. --Moni3 (talk) 12:14, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
NOTE: It was on the main page yesterday June 2, 2009. It may be that it was on the main page AGAIN at that time—141.155.159.210 (talk) 12:22, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
NOTE: Clarification. We're both correct. It was not the featured article yesterday, it was linked through the featured picture that was of Guthrie. So it was on the main page yesterday, but not as the featured article.—141.155.159.210 (talk) 12:27, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

I see one problem that goes towards criteria B of comprehensiveness. The article is concerned primarily with Guthrie from a biographical point of view but does not deal with him as a musician - I would suggest adding a section about his musical styles and development possibly extracting some points from the historical treatment.·Maunus·ƛ· 16:55, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

File:Woody Guthrie - This Land.ogg needs a fair-use rationale. DrKiernan (talk) 16:23, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

This should be provided in the ogg page, it was rationalized as 'sample' --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 17:57, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
A license template is not a rationale. The file page does not include any rationale. Jay32183 (talk) 00:57, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Updated, added fair use rationale template. --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 20:01, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
The rationale needs to be about the recording not the song. This recording is copyrighted, but the song itself is public domain. Jay32183 (talk) 21:19, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
That's not exactly true, the song itself may be public domain but reproductions of it, say as sheet music have been restricted in the past by the Guthrie family. (For example, use in Chicago's Old Town School of Folk music sheet music book was prevented). Anyway, I updated the wording a bit to refrence this particular recording. It is a sample of the most historically notable recording of this song (first with Moe Asch) and used to support decription of both this period of recording in Guthrie's career and the notability of the song itself. There are no freely avaliable recordings of Guthrie performing this song to replace with. Do you think this sample doesn't meet sample rationale for non-free material? --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 12:54, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
I still don't like your rationale. Don't use the word notable. There is no "sample rationale", you have to produce the rationale. You need to explain why hearing the sample will significantly improve the readers' understanding of the topic. Simply relating it to a significant moment is not significantly improving readers' understanding. You may wish to review WP:NFCC particularly point number 8. The lyrics and sheet music are public domain because copyright was not renewed correctly. Only recordings of the song are copyrighted. Jay32183 (talk) 20:56, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Is FA status review really the way to go about intoducing copyedit changes? Shouldn't the user merely intoduce the changes they see fit and followup on the discussion page? I don't really see anything listed here of note for status changes other than copyedit/wording changes and citiation needed items (all of which i agree SHOULD be updated). Plus some of the suggestions for inline citation of source material is not in line with wikipedia's citing methods. I will inline comment on these issues and welcome updates if this review request is valid, but I think redoing FA review would be overkill. Oh well, are Anonymous users allowed to initiate FA reviews anyway? This user seems unfarmilar with the process and conventions here. One thing I do take issue with is the comment 'I'm not going to go through the whole article but it is a long way from brilliant prose.' this (aside from sounding petty) makes me wonder how we can even respond the critique of the article if the questing user can't even muster up the effort to read the whole thing. Also, usage updates are warmly welcomed, but please check the citation with the assumption that quoted material is SIC. I vote Keep. and will add citation needed tags for uncited statements in the article. --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 18:13, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

These aren't copyedit changes. They are various type of identified problems, which includes copyedit material. I do so to show the endemic problems with the writing throughout; I use them to typify problems the article suffers from. Some of them, yes indeed, I could fix, and others I cannot fix because I didn't write the article and don't have access to the sources, but that is not the point. I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say "...suggestions for inline citation of source material is not in line with wikipedia's citing methods" I didn't call for a single citation to be added and I am very familiar with Misplaced Pages's citation policies and methods. You say you take issue with the comment "I'm not going to go through the whole article but it is a long way from brilliant prose", taking that to mean I did not read the article in its entirety. You misunderstand. I read the article carefully, top to bottom and inside and out—twice. I refer in this quote to going through each and every prose problem, by listing each one on this featured article review page. The reason why I am not going to do that is the same as the reason I stated earlier. The problems I identify are a symptom of a larger problem with the prose in general. You can find wonderful prose with poor punctuation and misspellings. You can have insipid prose with no such errors. Though, brilliant prose is rarely chock full of errors, and prose chock full of errors is rarely brilliant. The problem here is that the article is not very well written. I am showing that by highlighting some fundamental errors, but if it just needed a copyedit, I would have done that. I'm sorry you take offense at my characterization of the writing. I'm not sure how it's "petty" though. I can see how easily criticism of an article can be felt as a direct attack on those who participated. I do not wish to cause hurt feelings, but I think Misplaced Pages's image is more important, and I am quite sure I do not know how to say this fails the well written "even brilliant" prong of the featured article criteria, without saying that it does so fail to meet that standard. I think it would set a terrible example if this FAR was discounted simply because I am not a user with an account. That would be baby-bathwater territory; forest-for-trees shortsightedness. You are correct that this critique does not follow the standard entry I see for other articles. Were I to change it to say "fails criterion 1a. Not well written. Has punctuation, syntax, grammar and vocabulary errors and many of them; many passages are confused... etc."? That would be more in line with other examples, but I think less illuminating for those reading. By the way. I don't think anyone votes keep or delist yet. That process, per the instructions on this FAR page, happens after time is given for the issues identified to be addressed.—68.237.250.190 (talk) 21:26, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Comment: any changes have to be consistent with WP:MOS, which "Guthrie was born ON DATE in Okemah..." for instance, is not.--Grahame (talk) 01:33, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Okay. I took a look through the manual of style page and was not able to find the section stating this. I only found a section stating that the date of birth and death should be listed in the intro, but not that you shouldn't repeat the date of birth in the first section of a biography (nor the date of death at the end of a biography). It seems logical to me to include a date of birth at the start of a biography--especially when the lead of an article is supposed to summarize the body--but I can live with it. I would appreciate it, however, if you were a little more transparent, pointing me to the specific section of that many-tentacled body of pages for my own edification. I just took a look at other featured article biographies to see if they follow this convention and those I surveyed do not. James Joyce, Henry James, Virginia Eliza Clemm Poe and Edgar Allan Poe, which I clicked on at random, all disagree with this notion. You also seem to be inferring, by your use of "for instance", that many suggestions I have made transgress the style guidelines. I would also appreciate it if you stated that with more precision so that I can learn Misplaced Pages's style conventions better. Thanks.--141.155.159.210 (talk) 02:32, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

This is a keep surely. I've gone through it. The prose was not in bad shape, I thought. Couple of things I need help on:

    • "in Lomax's opinion, Guthrie's descriptions of growing up were some of the best accounts of American childhood he had read"—"best" is a little vague; does he mean best-written, most accurate? Childhood in urban America in the early 20th century? You may not be able to clear this up—it's a minor point.
    • "It is a vivid tale told in the artist's own down-home dialect, with the flair and imagery of a true storyteller." Is that WP or "Library Journal" talking? I don't doubt the claim, but it is a claim, full of what functional grammar calls "interpersonal epithets".
  • "culled from dates with Asch" (is this expert talk? "dates with", I mean. And "culled" might be better as "drawn from"?)
  • Upper-case "C" for "communism"? I remember a debate about this ages ago, but not its result. "The Communist Party", yes, but "communism" is an ideology, like "socialism", "anarchism" and "free-market capitalism". I forgot to pipe the very first occurrence, which is linked using a C.
  • Point of interest: why was a communist OK in the US Army, but not in the Merchant Marine service?
  • "Furlough"—it's jargon, is it? I wonder whether a more generally understood term is available, to save our readers' hitting the Wiktionary link. Maybe not.
  • "over time they had four children" The poor woman did it as fast as she could!  :–)
  • "eventually" is usually too vague to be encyclopedic. There are still a few examples I didn't get rid of (for want of the year). Tony (talk) 08:02, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, prose. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources and a "thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature ". YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 03:13, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment: There are some citations needed that should be addressed, and other places that could also use additional {{fact}} tags. I also noticed a hyperlinked external link within the article's main body text. Cirt (talk) 06:06, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment There are several dead links, and the images need alt text. Dabomb87 (talk) 20:10, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delist The prose is not of a comparable standard to other FAs, and I wouldn't see it as "engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard" Part of the problem in trying to address the issue is that most individual sentences are OK. It is the linking of them together, and the structure of the prose in the article, that i feel is its main problem. This is difficult to illustrate, but I'll do my best:
  • "He was growing as a musician, gaining practice by regularly playing at dances for his father's half-brother Jeff Guthrie, a fiddle player. At the library, he wrote a manuscript summarizing everything he had read on the basics of psychology." Unconnected points run together in one para, and whether the now missing MS is notable enough even to mention is also in question.
  • "1930s: traveling" section - begins with three short sentences, followed by the sub-heading "california", but there are no other sub-headings in the section. Why use one at all?
  • "New York city" - a very short para on his arrival in the city. Then the next para suddenly launches into a section on This Land Is Your Land, before then returning to events in New York.
  • "Bound for Glory" - this section has some sentences about meeting his future second wife sandwiched in between stuff about his autobiography
  • The section "Jewish songs", under "Legacy", begins: "Marjorie Mazia was born Marjorie Greenblatt and her mother, Aliza Greenblatt, was a well-known Yiddish poet." This is completely out of the blue and reads as though we're on some other WP page altogether.

Generally, there are continuity problems that I think arise from indecision about how to structure the article. It needs a clear distinction between a chronological account and themes, and it needs better-flowing prose throughout. For examples where a clearer structure has been adhered to (often including a chronological account), see Emma Goldman, Kate Bush or Albert Speer. hamiltonstone (talk) 05:18, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Delist, mainly due to citation and prose problems. I can still find writing problems ("In the late 1930s, Guthrie achieved fame in Los Angeles, California, with radio partner Maxine "Lefty Lou" Crissman as a broadcast performer of commercial "hillbilly" music and traditional folk music." and the "Posthumous honors" section is very stubby with no flow), and there are still many unsourced statements and paragraphs. Dabomb87 (talk) 14:47, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Addendum, re Tony's note about the use of "eventually" above. It is still used nine places in the article; number of years later or dates should be used instead. —mattisse (Talk) 15:28, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Delist. No one has even bothered to make the changes above where I cited garbled and awkward prose and provided suggested text for replacement. By the way, if you review the numerous problems I identified when I started this FAR, the use of "eventually" over and over was one of them, so you can see addressing that has been at issue since the start, prior to the more recent calls for the same.—173.52.34.57 (talk) 21:24, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
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The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 00:39, 10 August 2009 .

Brihanmumbai Electric Supply and Transport

Review commentary

Notified .

This 2006 FA promotion has issues with criteria 1a, 1b, 1c and 3.

  • Criterion 1a issues:
    • random example: "BEST also earns revenues by way of advertisements on its buses and bus-stops, and through rent from offices on owned properties" -> "BEST also earns revenue through advertisements on its buses and bus-stops, and by renting out offices in its buildings"
    • Persistent use of "till"
    • mixture of British and American English
  • Criterion 1b issues:
    • The "culture and awards" section is pure fluffery
    • Nothing on BEST's safety record?
    • Info on governance? Board of directors? How does the government exert control?
    • Are the bus services coordinated with trains so that passengers can transfer efficiently?
  • Criterion 1c issues: Almost all sources are from BEST, giving me the feeling that this reads like an advertisement. In addition, there are a number of paragraphs without citations.
  • Criterion 3 issues: Questionable PD claims for the images in the "History" section. There's no evidence that these images were published 60 years ago.

Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 15:35, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, biased sources, POV, prose, comprehensiveness, alt text. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. FAQ? YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 02:29, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
It only takes about 10 minutes to do that review....It might take 20 hours to fix it YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 07:09, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
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The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 00:39, 10 August 2009 .

Whale song

Review commentary

Notifications complete: Main contributor and nominator User:Pcb21 and only wikiproject: Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Cetaceans

Criteria 1(c) - currently needs more inline citations Tom B (talk) 20:55, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Images:

Replaced. ceranthor 14:45, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment: Links checked all seem fine except external link "Voices in the Sea". Aaroncrick 10:27, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Comment - I'm referencing the article, bit by bit, getting rid of weasel terms and fixing anything that doesn't quite comply with the sources. By tomorrow, it should be fully referenced. ceranthor 18:03, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Ceranthor said he's working on saving this article, so here are a few comments to help along the way:
  • I've gone through and given the article a copy edit. I've also added fact and weasel word tags where appropriate.
  • One section extremely lacking in this article is any discussion of the history of studying whale song. As a reader, that's one question that needs to be answered for this to be an FA: How did the study of whale song start? What form does it take today? Who studies it? To what end?
  • What does the clause "This is included with or in comparison with music" mean? It's so convoluted that it's incomprehensible.
  • I don't know about the accuracy of the statement "Smell also is limited, as molecules diffuse more slowly in water than in air". What about the famous ability of sharks to sense blood in water at a very low concentration?
  • An explanation is needed as to why a cutaway view of a dolphin head is used to explain whale song.
  • Existing citations need to be checked for consistency in form and completeness.
  • In the toothed whale section, dolphins are used as an example. While I understand why that's the case, the article is about whale song, not cetacean mammal song.
  • The sound levels tables don't have enough standalone information and should be incorporated into their respective main sections. It's good information, but unless more prose is added to each section, it's not enough to be separate.
  • What tools are used in the study of whale song? What structure does modern scientific research take? Who does it?
  • In addition to the above expansion suggestions, I highly suggest a section covering the way whale songs have influenced popular culture and media. The most obvious example is Star Trek IV, but I know that numerous composers and musical artists also have been influenced by whale song.
  • The information about sensory drawbacks given in the lede should be repeated and expanded in the "reasons for whale song" section. Otherwise, it should be cited.
  • This article needs a lot of work. In fact, I'd venture to say that it's the worst article I've run across in my limited time here at FAC. Only a dedicated editor willing to devote large amounts of time to this article will be successful in resolving the issues I've raised and preserving the article. JKBrooks85 (talk) 11:10, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Fixed. Images and songs need alt text as per WP:ALT. Eubulides (talk) 08:24, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, alt text, structure, prose, comprehensiveness, focus. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. FAQ?
I ask for some more time. I have little time to do work right now, but I'm trying to fit some in. ceranthor 00:20, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Drop me a line when you've got it changed so I can remove my note. :) JKBrooks85 (talk) 11:23, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
I have fixed the alt text, so that's one FA concern gone (not the most important one, admittedly). I suggest giving Ceranthor a bit more time. Eubulides (talk) 17:13, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Is this being worked up in a hard drive? I haven't seen anything for three weeks. YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 07:07, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
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Meteorological history of Tropical Storm Allison

I wrote this article a year ago, and it was quickly promoted to featured status; however, I'm now convinced it is an unnecessary content fork of Tropical Storm Allison. Pending the outcome of this discussion, I will either initiate a discussion to merge, or summarily preform the merge per WP:BOLD. Thoughts? –Juliancolton |  01:55, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd say merge. Eubulides (talk) 03:02, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Your inclusion of {{featured article review|Meteorological history of Tropical Storm Allison/archive1}} at Talk:Meteorological history of Tropical Storm Allison doesn't make adequately clear what you're considering. A simple "new section" at the bottom might be better. Having said that, I can't see that anyone's likely to object. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 16:46, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Review period is not relevant here so people can imagine that they're in the FARC stage already YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 01:42, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I think a merge would be good if the Nom wants it.Jason Rees (talk) 22:13, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Merge. I think the nominator is correct. The article is one of the 100 shortest FAs, and Tropical Storm Allison is just about average. Merging them wouldn't create any size issues and seems appropriate. JKBrooks85 (talk) 08:05, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
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The article was removed by Raul654 03:24, 3 August 2009 .

Aramaic language

Review commentary

WikiProjects notified.

Fails 1c. Very few citations. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 01:19, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Wow. I don't see why this article passed in the first place. Hopefully the sources are in the article and the footnotes just haven't been added. I might look into it later. --Al Ameer son (talk) 02:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
  • The grammar part does enumerate some structural peculiarities of Aramaic, but it does not pin down the existing oppositions and their evolution into each other within grammaticalization. It does not say anything about syntactic patterns, constructions, information structure.
  • The phonological part doesn’t address synchronic phonological processes that might often be observed in individual varieties, but is restricted to the sound inventory.
  • Next to no in-line citations.
Looks like B class. The content seems to be slightly better, not yet sufficient for GA, while the in-line references lean more towards C class. G Purevdorj (talk) 09:27, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
I wrote the original article and got it to featured status a few years ago. The article gained featured status long before Misplaced Pages had any decent form of referencing. Most of the historical part of the article is based on the overview by Klaus Beyer, which is mentioned as a general reference. When the article gained featured status, the main concern was with its length rather than its references. For that reason, some sections, like phonology, were kept short. If I could have a list of specific practical issues with the article, I can improve it pretty quickly. I feel it is far better to look for ways to improve articles rather than bureaucratic reclassification. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 12:20, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, I guess at least every paragraph must have a reference, and more where required, including page numbers (maybe with an exemption for lexicons?!). The number of books given as references should exactly be those that were quoted in the article.

According to Misplaced Pages:Splitting#Article size, the size is maybe a bit large, but it is still considerably smaller than the FAs Mayan languages and Turkish language and the GA Japanese grammar, so I hope length will not be of concern right now.

If the others agree with that, I would suggest giving some more details about the function of voice, word order and its functions and the development of the aspect system. The expression of modality would be worthwhile as well. I don’t get the state thing as well. G Purevdorj (talk) 13:34, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I think the grammar section is severely lacking in information, presentation and sources. It doesnt give any kind of feeling for what is typical of aramaic in comparison with other semitic languages. I would vote delist on this issue alone.·Maunus·ƛ· 17:01, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concern is citations. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 04:03, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Delist, per FA criteria concerns. Cirt (talk) 00:44, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Delist, sourcing issues have not been addressed. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 02:11, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Hold on — I have asked for a little time to update this article and don't appreciate this being pushed through. This takes time to build, but a moment to tear apart. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 11:29, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Articles that meet the FA criteria are kept as featured articles; articles that don't are delisted. It's on the community to make sure articles meet current FA criteria. If you want to bring an article back to FA status, then make your intentions clear. You announced your plans to refine this article two weeks ago, but we never received any further comment from you. FAR will give time to editors who want to salvage an article, but you must give us updates of your progress. I believe everyone here assumed that the article work had been aborted. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 15:43, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Feel free to use my talk page rather than assume things. It does take time to write articles, and it takes time for me to take the books down from my shelves to reference everything. I have written an expanded section on grammar also. Our aim is to make the article as good as it can be. I am capable of doing that, most others aren't. To that end I expect the Misplaced Pages community to be supportive of improvement work rather than pulling meaningless deadlines from the air. I am grateful that a few of the above statements have been useful. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 16:01, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Very well, but you must start referencing the article ASAP or it will undoubtedly be delisted. Even B-class articles need to have footnotes. Anyway, I know it might take time to find the page numbers and the specific book, but you or someone else with sources needs to at least start the footnoting process or editors will not be convinced that it shouldn't be delisted. Cheers and good luck! --Al Ameer son (talk) 16:38, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
While progress is being made to address the referencing issues this FARC will be left open. Be sure to provide updates or I will assume that progress has stalled. Joelito (talk) 16:13, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I have begun adding references to the article. Some re-editing is required as controversial material has been added. Once decent references are in place for all substantive points, I shall add a more extensive guide to Aramaic phonology that I have written. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 14:32, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, I would like to commend Gareth for his contributions to wikipedia. Subject-specialists and professionals prepared to use their real names as they edit here are in short supply and should be welcomed and encouraged. As he is an identifiable expert, I do not feel that his work requires the same intense verification required for contributions written by anonymous or pseudonymous contributors. I have only one particular concern with the reliability of the article, and that comes from Gareth's comment that "controversial material has been added". Can Gareth assure us that the article represents current academic thinking, and presents a balanced view of the subject area?

On the issue of prose and structure, I have a few comments:

  • "Modern Aramaic is spoken today as a first language by many scattered, predominantly small, and largely isolated communities of differing Christian, Jewish and Muslim groups of the Middle East—most numerously by the Assyrians in the form of Assyrian Neo-Aramaic—that have all retained use of the once dominant lingua franca despite subsequent language shifts experienced throughout the Middle East." - this sentence is too long.
  • The use of "(see below)" indicates structural problems, as it should not be necessary to refer to information that follows to understand information that precedes it.
  • The "Geographic distribution" section includes some history, so maybe this section and "History" can be combined to avoid the short, listy introductory history section later on?
  • Please use either ndashes (–) or mdashes (—) but not both, so that the article presents a uniform style to the reader.
  • Make "The dialects mentioned in the last section were..." specific, say "The Post-Achaemenid Aramaic dialects were...".
  • The use of idiomatic phrases like "with a foot in Imperial" can be confusing to readers who do not share your particular cultural background or are reading english as their second or third language. It is better to speak plainly and use simple sentence forms.
  • I suppose there should be a cite for "Modern Aramaic speakers found the language stilted and unfamiliar."
  • There are a number of short sections in the "Middle Aramaic" section. Perhaps reviewers here would be assuaged if this was formatted as a table?
  • The "See also" section contains many links that are already linked earlier in the article. It is generally considered unnecessary to repeat links. DrKiernan (talk) 14:38, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
    • Nothing seems to be happening with this one. Main contributor has not edited since May 5. I will wait a few more days before closing in the hope that Gareth renews editing. Joelito (talk) 01:59, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
      • I apologize for leaving you all waiting: I've been busy with publishing deadlines. I have a draft of three new sections to add to the article, mostly covering points raised above, and I have a list of references to be added to the extant article. Thank you, DrKiernan, for your points, I think most of the changes you suggest can be made without too much difficulty. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 23:52, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Can we get an update? This FAR has lasted well over two months now, and I don't see a potential for progress in the foreseeable future. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 20:48, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
I have expanded the section on nouns and adjectives, including detailed explanation of the state system, as has been requested: more soon. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 00:29, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Delist, I'd say. Put it out of its misery if none of the authors cares. "Old Aramaic covers over thirteen centuries of the language." Hmmm. "Ancient Aramaic refers to the Aramaic of the Aramaeans from its origin until it becomes the official 'lingua franca' of the Fertile Crescent. It was the language of the city-states of Damascus, Hamath and Arpad." Mixed tenses. Where are the citations? Looking no further.Tony (talk) 11:27, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
There's nothing particularly wrong with any of those statements; please explain yourself. I'm expanding those points that have been requested and will be adding the citations soon. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 01:56, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Rejoinder:
    • One language "covers" another? To fix, ask why "of the language" is needed in the first place. Better something like "refers to the language in its form from the X to the Y centuries". Be specific and the logic is right, then.
    • "Aramaic ... Aramaic"—please avoid such close reps. "refers to the language of". Easy. But even in the lead, I'd still want a bit of timing ("Crescent in the blah century BC").
    • The link to "Israel" goes to "Isreal and Judea". Is this an important distinction that should not be concealed in the pipe? Unhappy about having to click on "Second Temple" in the second sentence to orient myself. The lead should be big picture and prepare non-experts for the greater detail in the body of the article. This lead creates too many questions in my mind.
  • Remove "therefore" from the second sentence? "... period and the mother tongue of Jesus ...". The second sentence is a three-item list, and the second item, without a tense, is uncomfortably hanging between the past of the first item and the present of the third.

That's the opening two sentences. I think this demonstrates that the article needs time off the list, where it can be worked up to modern FA standards in a number of respects and resubmitted. A shining article we can all be proud of will probably result. Tony (talk) 16:50, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

  • Delist. I do agree that inserting references into such an article will take a while, but if one is an expert and has the relevant literature at hand, supplying in-line citations could probably be done within one day. Indeed, NONE has been supplied since this review began. But even if work was ongoing, almost two months is too long for a FAR. G Purevdorj (talk) 22:54, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
No, to most of those observations. Some references have been added and the grammar section is being rewritten. It seems no one else has the will or ability to edit this article, so I am doing it all. I have real work to do too. Providing the best references for an article like this isn't that easy: three millennia of detailed analysis isn't found in a couple of books, and I really want to move away from the overdependence on Beyer that the article has. So, this is not a helpful or constructive comment. Of course, if you want to delist the article I'll spend my energy on something more deserving and let you all do this rewrite. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 22:54, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Possibly you are right about the time frame, but the worst problem is not the number (or quality) of cited research work, but rather the lack of linking the available information to its sources in the bibliography via in-line references. During the last 50 or so edits, about one in-line reference has been added. The problem of verifiability should have preference over sheer content matters. I wouldn't have written my last commentary if it was about 10 new in-line references. By the way, TriZ, please care a bit to hit the right tone - commends like my last one are less likely to give me a timeout than yours. G Purevdorj (talk) 19:59, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Delist ·Maunus·ƛ· 12:09, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
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The article was removed by Raul654 03:03, 3 August 2009 .

African American literature

Review commentary

Wikiprojects and author notified

Old FAC from 2005. The article has many uncited passages, especially in the subjective parts about pundit analysis. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:11, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Images: File:Color purple.jpg: fair-use rationale insufficient. As there is literature from before 1923, a free-use cover could be used. File:Frederick Douglass (2).jpg: incomplete information, no author, first publication or date. DrKiernan (talk) 13:40, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

There are few short stories that are discussed, and short stories make up a substantial portion of African American literature. For instance, Uncle Tom's Children is not mentioned in Richard Wright's section (and yet was very important). Thus, there is a weight issue/comprehensive issue. Also, many of the Harlem Ren works (like Wright's) discuss communism, which is not mentioned at all. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:20, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Comments 1a, 1c, 2b, 3
1a) There are some lingering prose issues. I found some sentence fragments as I was reading (see talk page). Also, many of the paragraphs begin with "another" or some other such weak transition. The article needs a good copyeditor. I would be willing to do this if all of the other issues are resolved.
1c) There are large swaths of uncited material. I started adding {{fact}} tags, but I grew tired. The problem is mostly in the "History" section.
2b) I find the structure of the article a problem. It is divided into "Characteristics and themes", "History", and "Critiques". The "Critiques" section, to me, should be structured and named to reflect the diversity of views about what African-American literature is rather than around the idea of criticism (we are supposed to avoid "Criticism" sections). Perhaps this section and "Characteristics and themes" could be merged into a "Definition and characteristics" section.
3) All images need alt text.

I hope this is helpful. Awadewit (talk) 16:24, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, prose, structure, comprehensiveness, image copyright. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 15:11, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
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The article was removed by Raul654 03:03, 3 August 2009 .

Krag-Petersson

Review commentary

Article fails 1c. Apart from two hobby websites, one book is cited, and no details are given wrt page numbers, just the name of the book. Images are dubiously tagged under 100 years after death but the designer died in 1916. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 04:26, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

According to Commons (which the files are duplicates of), the copyright was valid during the owner's life plus 70 years, and as he died in 1916, the copyright has expired.--LWF (talk) 04:43, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
  • There are many problems with this article; consider this to be a "delist" !vote when this moves into FARC mode.
    • There is too much of a reliance on one source.
    • Page numbers are needed.
    • Even when assuming that citations cover more than one sentence (and I'm not confident of that, with seeing multiple 's in one paragraph), I still see much that is unreferenced.
    • I don't think refs 1 and 4 are reliable.
    • THis is without checking the prose... —Ed (Talk • Contribs) 02:09, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Comments:
  • I've given the article a quick copy edit and have added citation needed and weasel word tags where the appropriate items should be added or fixed.
  • Citations 1 and 4 are not reliable.
  • "Mechanism" is used twice in the first sentence of the design section.
  • "Major" components is an imprecise term.
  • The extremely heavy reliance on just one source, particularly since that source isn't in English, makes me unhappy.
  • The photos need alt text and should be checked for fair use criteria.
  • The anthropomorphism exhibited toward countries: "France also tested" ... makes me uncomfortable, but that might be a common use in military articles. This should be checked against MILHIST style and corrected if necessary.
  • USD figures vary in style and presentation in the article. These should follow WP:MOS.
  • Was the weapon used at all during the WWII resistance? Given its age and the fact that it was sold to civilians, it seems possible.
  • Overall, this article could be kept as an FA with just a bit of work on the citations. The prose is acceptable, if not particularly striking, but there are a few weasel words and unclear spots. JKBrooks85 (talk) 11:43, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, images. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:01, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
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The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 02:24, 3 August 2009 .

Names of the Greeks

Review commentary

Main editor User:Deucalionite has been blocked indefinitely. There seem to be no other main editors. I have notified Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Greece,Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Etymology and Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Anthroponymy.

WP:CGR should be notified; they are likely to be the most helpful.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:30, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

This article was promoted in 2005 and since then much text has been added to it. Currently the article has numerous citation needed tags, a POV tag, and an accuracy disputed tag. There do not seem to be editors actively interested in improving the article.

The original nominator of the article Colossus has not edited since Spring of 2008. However, one of his last edits addressed the problems with Names of the Greeks on the article talk page. He agrees that the article's quality has fallen sharply, despite having many references.

I feel that the article fails the following:

  • 1a - there are questions about article quality. The article is hard to follow and varies in quality of prose. Editors appear to add and remove material without discussion on the talk page.
  • lc - it has many {{citation needed}} tags. There are uncited quotations, eg 'Cicero delivered the coup de grace by coining the truly derogatory term, Graeculi, "contemptuous little Greeks".' Some sections are entirely uncited.
  • 1d - questions about its neutrality per the {{disputed}} tag and {{pov}} tag.
  • 1e - questions about its stability as there is adding and removing of tags and material without consensus or discussion.

—Mattisse (Talk) 16:29, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Yeap, the article has great problems. And I am not sure I have the time or the material or even the appetite to work on it at this phase. I can promise I'll have a look at it during the weekend; and it is really unfortunate that both Kekrops and Deucalionite are blocked (both of them unfairly IMO). I don't promise anything, but if I do some cleaning, I suppose I can count on Mattisse's copy-editing skills!--Yannismarou (talk) 19:57, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
No, their absence offers some hope of making the article less like a Greek high-school textbook, of some thirty-five years ago. It is filled with nonsense and nationalist POV, and always has been. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:24, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I will help in any way I can. I suggest that you remove material that is not well sourced. I am hesitant to do that myself as I am unfamiliar with the subject matter and do not know what is important and what can easily be referenced. —Mattisse (Talk) 20:12, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Thank you, Mattisse, in advance!--Yannismarou (talk) 08:30, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Factual errors begin in the intro:

  • virtually all Greeks were Roman citizens and therefore considered by name to have the right to be free and own property
    The two halves of this sentence have nothing to do with each other; one never needed to be a Roman citizen to be free or to own property.

Much more could follow; but it may be simpler to add a new layer of {{cn}}. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:45, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

What I would do, if I were Jimbo, is to remove all the non-linguistic assertions, including the claims about what the Aetolians did in the twelfth century BC (about which we have no reliable information at all), the point-scoring about Philip of Macedon, the assertion (above) that Cicero coined a perfectly normal Latin diminutive, the claims that the Greeks felt superior to other peoples (and who hasn't?); limit the linguistics to what is plainly consensus; and then consider whether what is left would be better on Wiktionary. Whether the result would deserve to be an FA is another question; but it would meet my standard: not being a public embarassment. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:21, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • The article is full of tags, added some more
  • I noticed many WP:PRIMARY non-English sources are used. The author may have mis-interpreted the Greek source, at least citations to English translations needed or secondary sources. e.g.
    • Herodotus, "Histories", book II, 158
    • Saint Paul, "Epistle to the Romans", 1, 14
    • Aristotle, "Republic", I, 5
    • Homer, "Iliad", II, 498
    • Thucydides, "History", II, 68, 9 and II, 80, 5 and I, 47, 3 --Redtigerxyz 06:00, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

File:Hieronymus wolf2.JPG: PD of course, but it's always nice to know the original source and artist. Otherwise, images OK. DrKiernan (talk) 11:04, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Ugh, what a horrible mess. Even the title is misleading. I went there expecting an article about names of individual Greeks, but find instead one about names of the Greek nation. Peter jackson (talk) 10:52, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, POV, accuracy, alt text. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. FAQ? YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:00, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
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The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 02:24, 3 August 2009 .

Rail transport in India

Review commentary

Notified WikiProject India, WikiProject Trains, Nichalp and Dwaipayanc.

This article was an FA promotion from 2005. It was previously at FAR, but closed early on a good faith assumption that improvements would continue to be made on the article. Although some improvements were made, the article still has a number of issues:

  • More than 60% of the references are from Indian Railway Fan Club, which is quite clearly not a reliable source
  • Other RS issues – reliance on Indian Railway sources, aboutpalaceonwheels.com, triptoindia.com, self-reference to Misplaced Pages (!)
  • The article is not representative of the published body of work on Indian rail transport
  • Inconsistent capitalization
  • A number of unsourced paragraphs/sentences
  • This article focuses too heavily on listcruft, rather than prose
  • R&D section: What about private investment? What exactly has it done since 2003?
  • Image issues: File:Budgam Station.jpg is tagged at Commons as missing permission, File:Bholu.png does not have a fair use rationale, and File:IR sample ticket.jpg might be a copyright violation.
  • There are a number of areas where the article lacks info:
    • Freight railways in India
    • Costs? economy compared to road or water freight? pro/con of rail compared to road/water transport
    • Safety? People hanging off the trains without proper seats?
    • Train terrorism
    • Technology? Good or bad?
    • Complete lack of historical development
    • Technical specifications in lots of detail but other things are neglected

To summarize, there are numerous issues with FA criteria 1a, 1b, 1c and 3. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 12:58, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Comment. Images need alt text as per WP:ALT. Eubulides (talk) 08:22, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment. How is IRFCA not a reliable source? Their content is peer-reviewed on their mailing list, and can they not be generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand ? Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 18:08, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment. There is no indication that there are site editors who review contributions by the fan club members to ensure accuracy, verifiability and neutrality. Some of the articles from other publications and reprinted on the site, authored by specific persons, might be all right as references. But the site is clear that it is not an "official site". —Mattisse (Talk) 17:23, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, reliables sources, prose, comprehensiveness, balance, alt text. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. FAQ? YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 01:55, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 02:24, 3 August 2009 .

Anne, Queen of Great Britain

Review commentary

Messages left at Biography, Lord Emsworth, Royalty and UK notice board. john k (talk) 17:24, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

This article, largely written by User:Lord Emsworth, who was, at the time, a very smart high school student, I think (he might have been in college, so don't quote me on that), is not a bad article. But when I was looking at it this morning it contained considerable factual errors. It is probably also not well-enough sourced, and lacks a certain degree of comprehensiveness. In particular, I found these paragraphs problematic. I have already changed them to make them better, but I present them to indicate the sort of problems that occurred in the article:

Anne's first ministry was primarily Tory; at its head was Sidney Godolphin, 1st Baron Godolphin. But the Whigs, who were, unlike the Tories, vigorous supporters of the War of the Spanish Succession, became much more influential after the Duke of Marlborough won a great victory at the Battle of Blenheim in 1704. The Whigs rose to power on the strength of Marlborough's victory and almost all the Tories were removed from the ministry. Lord Godolphin, although a Tory, allied himself with Marlborough to ensure his continuance in office. Although Lord Godolphin was the nominal head of the ministry, actual power was held by the Duke of Marlborough and by the two Secretaries of State (Charles Spencer, 3rd Earl of Sunderland and Robert Harley).

This paragraph seems to imply that Marlborough was a Whig, which was not the case - Marlborough was, in fact, a very close associate of Godolphin, and their political views were virtually identical - the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography describes them, as moderate Tories, and Harley as a Country Whig, who together acted more as mediators between the Queen, the Junto Whigs, and the High Tories than as party politicians. The contention that Godolphin was only the nominal head of the ministry after 1704 is nonsense, and talking about Sunderland and Harley, who were great enemies, as leading the ministry together is also misleading.

Furthermore, it's not true that "almost all Tories were removed from the ministry" after 1704. The High Tories, most notably Nottingham and Buckingham, left in 1704-1705. But Godolphin and Marlborough, who led the ministry, were still seen as Tories. So was Lord Pembroke, the Lord President. While Harley himself was originally a Whig, he was at this time moving closer to the Tories, and several of his associates (notably Henry St John, the Secretary at War) were considered Tories. It was only in 1708 that the ministry became virtually entirely Whig.

The Whigs used the Prince's death to their own advantage, using her weakness to disregard the Queen's wishes and form a predominantly Whig government, led by Lord Godolphin. Their power was, however, limited by Anne's insistence on carrying out the duties of Lord High Admiral herself, and not appointing a member of the government to take Prince George's place. Undeterred, the Whigs demanded the appointment of the Earl of Orford, one of Prince George's leading critics, as First Lord of the Admiralty. Anne flatly refused, and chose her own candidate, Thomas Herbert, 8th Earl of Pembroke on 29 November 1709. Pressure mounted on Pembroke, Godolphin and the Queen from the dissatisfied Junto Whigs, and Pembroke was forced to resign after just a month in office. Another month of arguments followed before the Queen finally consented to put the Admiralty in control of the Earl of Orford in November.

These paragraphs also were problematic. Anne only retained the Lord High Admiralship for a couple of months after her husband's death, then gave it to Pembroke in November 1708. It was after Pembroke's appointment that the pressure for putting Orford in occurred, and Orford came in in early November 1709. I'm not sure where these details came from, but they seem wrong.

As the expensive War of the Spanish Succession grew unpopular so too did the Whig administration. Robert Harley, 1st Earl of Oxford and Mortimer was particularly skillful in using the issue (of the cost of the war) to motivate the electorate. In the general election of 1710, discontented voters returned a large Tory majority. The new ministry was headed by Robert Harley and began to seek peace in the War of the Spanish Succession. The Tories were ready to compromise by giving Spain to the grandson of the French King, but the Whigs could not bear to see a Bourbon on the Spanish Throne.

Firstly, a minor issue, that Harley was not yet earl of Oxford until 1711. But beyond that, the key issue is that this gets events reversed. The queen put Harley and the Tories into power before the 1710 general election, which the Tories won because they already controlled the government patronage. Sunderland was replaced in June 1710, Godolphin fell in August, Somers and Boyle were dismissed in September. The election did not commence until the beginning of October, and the remaining Junto Whigs, Wharton and Orford, were gotten rid of while it was occurring. The Tories got a majority in parliament because they came to power; they did not come to power because they got a majority in parliament.

As I said, I tried to correct these issues and clarify things, but I suspect there are similar issues relating to other parts of the article. I think it would be useful to look it over again - especially by people who actually know something about the subject matter. john k (talk) 17:13, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I had a feeling this might come up. I agree with the above, but I'm up to the gills in Anna Anderson right now, so I probably won't have time to devote to this. DrKiernan (talk) 07:41, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment on 1c: This article is based on a single biography of Anne in addition to books covering a much wider scope (history of Britain sort of things). I checked around and there are several biographies of Anne. An FA version of the article would not present just one biographer's view of Anne, but the views of all of the major biographers. Awadewit (talk) 16:30, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, accuracy, comprehensiveness, breadth of research, alt text. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. FAQ? YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 01:54, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
  1. Heinrichs 1990: xi–xv; Beyer 1986: 53.