Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 05:06, 11 December 2005

Request made to move category to Category:Science of Questionable Validity at Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_deletion

Requested Move

Category is misleading and has fueled a revert war on Aetherometry — Hackwrench 14:53, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Voting

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

Having presented the request, I vote 'For' Hackwrench 14:53, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Support or oppose what? What exactly is the proposal we are asked to vote on?

Also, this "discussion" seems to have been going on for a year and a half now, and nothing seems to be have been done as a result. I see some people have quite cogently argued on this page that the category Pseudoscience is POV, that it is insulting, that its uses cannot be adequately justified since the Misplaced Pages editors do not have enough resources and knowledge to judge the scientific merits of non-mainstream scientific claims, etc. And what? Does this discussion have any procedural significance, or is it just meant as a venue for marginals to blow off steam and think they are accomplishing something? FrankZappo 05:06, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

Category Existence

Look, I admit that a lot of this stuff is way out there, but the very existence of this category is perilously close to skeptic POV; I have softened the description line, hoping that helps a bit. --Gary D 04:09, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I agree. It's not the place of Misplaced Pages to claim that, for example, homeopathy violates the scientific method. I might personally (indeed, I do) think that it's a load of absolute bunkum - but the absolute most that Misplaced Pages should say is that some named person has claimed that homeopathy is bunkum. I'm going to soften the description even more. -- ALargeElk | Talk 14:29, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Checking the history I see that Gary D had softened it and someone had then hardened it again. There is a difference between the article intro and the category. The article intro effectively says "this is what we believe pseudoscience means". The category effectively says "we believe these articles to be examples of pseudoscience", and must therefore, at the very least, contain the word "alleged" or something similar. -- ALargeElk | Talk 14:41, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Obviously, as the guy who softened it the first time, I support ALargeElk's position. --Gary D 18:02, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

In keeping with NPOV#Pseudoscience why not change the description to indicating that this category is for fields currently regarded as pseudoscience by mainstream science ? Then it will not contain both creationism and evolution just because supporters can be found on both sides. Having said that, I feel the category may be too broad. Do we add in everything in the "Alternative Medicine" project? Zuytdorp Survivor 03:50, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think your concern about category breadth may touch on why I don't like this category. Unlike the article Pseudoscience, where claims and counterclaims can be attributed and discussed, with a category of Pseudoscience it's as though WP comes down and puts its imprimatur on all these articles to say, "WP agrees that everything here fails to comport with the scientific method and is pseudoscience." That's why I liked the waffle language about "alleged to be"; that way the category was only setting up the possibility of contested claims, WP wasn't vouching for any of them, and the reader could go to the individual articles to see who was claiming something was pseudoscience. (I actually considered proposing changing the category title to "Alleged pseudoscience," but that seemed a bit much.) If we go to the "currently mainstream science" language in the description, we are inserting a broad, definite attribution across the board, to many places where it may not be justified. For instance, this category currently contains the broad article Supernatural. I don't think we want to be in the position of certifying that all of mainstream science thinks everything connected with the supernatural is pseudoscience. Hence, I would propose leaving the admittedly wafflish "alleged to be" language in the description. (What I'd really like to do is dump the category.) --Gary D 20:54, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I too would completely do away with this category completely. Redirecting the category to "Alleged pseudoscience" would remain a poor second choice. The term "pseudoscience" tends to be used pejoratively about a study or practice, in the same way that the word "dictator" is used to describe certain national leaders. When you call a subject "pseudoscience" you are making a positive claim about that subject. You are proposing a theory about the subject, and unless you are providing falsifiable evidence about your proposal, you are yourself (within our definition of the term) acting pseudoscientifically. For the subject to be pseudoscience there must at least be a semblance or pretense of being scientific, and to the extent that the subject has individual adherents who sincerely attempt to apply (perhaps in futility) scientific methods those individuals do not deserve to be contemptuously called pseudoscientists. The behaviour of the so-called scientists in this matter is reprehensible; as I read many of the related articles I often find them trying to disprove and spotlight claims that the proponents never made. The cited section on the NPOV page is not much better than biased POV sophistry, beginning with the presumption that what "scientists" consider to be pseudoscientific is repugnant. In a later section the author goes so far as to associate the holders of minority beliefs with flat-earthers and holocaust deniers. I don't know if I have the stomach to go there to change that to a truly NPOV presentation. Eclecticology 12:07, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Why hasn't this been deleted yet?

It looks like we have a consensus here. Why hasn't any action been taken? The article is OK, but the Category is POV, not to mention insulting. Why haven't any Wikipedians who support the existence of this category posted their opinion?

Specific proposal: rename the category to something like ]. --Smithfarm 16:27, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Quackery?

Now what about the Quackery category? Does that fit in here at all? Does it have any proponents (i.e. people who say "I'm a quack, and proud of it")? Or is it just an insult? --Smithfarm 16:32, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Keep this category

Smithfarm: please stop removing this categorization like you did for holistic science. There is clearly the need to mark non-scientific topics as non-scientific (or non-mainstream or whatever). Removing this category would be blatant POV. I also don't like the the name "Alternative scientific paradigms". Why not stick to "pseudoscience", a term that is widely in use and where we have an article for. Cacycle 22:53, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Do you at least agree that putting a derogatory label on something is POV? (Same as taking the derogatory label off is, as you state) Can you suggest a non-derogatory label? --Smithfarm 06:42, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• How about "Widely challenged theories"?—Theo (Talk) 30 June 2005 14:59 (UTC)

Alternative approachs

• I don't support deleting this category or giving it too silly a name ("Alternative paradigms" or whatever). The way I see it, you can look at the term "pseudoscience" as having one of two meanings: 1. An essentialist meaning: things are pseudoscience because they do not adhere to the scientific method. 2. A pragmatic meaning: Things are pseudoscience which the mainstream scientific community labels as pseudoscience.
• Clearly the people who use the term to designate certain things as "pseudoscience" or not are implying an essentialist meaning -- that "pseudoscience" is a real category. The problem with this is that there is considerable debate by philosophers, historians, and even scientists at times about whether or not there is any clear demarcation criteria that seperates science from non-science. People throw "falsifiability" around as if it was an easy and straightforward term -- any small amount of prodding will show that it is a bit more complicated than that, though.
• The second approach is one which doesn't assume to understand or validate the accusation of "pseudoscience", but rather is more of a sociological approach to the question. I think it works better for a source like Misplaced Pages. It tells people who generally tend to trust the "mainstream scientific community" that these things are considered problematic. It allows the people who support these practices to say, "well, the mainstream scientific community might be wrong." It clearly points to the power structure imbedded in this form of labeling (labels to not just magically appear out of nothing apply themselves, they are always applied by someone) which I think is important for a NPOV approach (avoiding the assumption of any one group's essentialist criterion).
• How this can apply in practice here is difficult, though. "Considered psuedoscience" might be a bit more NPOV as a title, but the odds of it actually being used are low. The category page itself would of course indicate by whom it was considered. I think words like "allegedly" or "putatively" don't really get at the sociological approach that I think is necessary for NPOV. Perhaps if we just changed the category description to reflect that the label was being actively applied (and not just existing outside of time and space)? I don't know for sure. I'm very wary about deleting the category, though -- I think there should be a category for things which are purpored to be scientific practices but are not accepted by the mainstream scientific community. I think that's a useful thing to think about and a useful categorization scheme. But I'm not sure what the best concise category name is for that. Thoughts on this? --Fastfission 16:20, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think we should see a category not as a label to discredit an opinion but way more pragmatically as a way to find articles by descending into the categorization tree. There are many people interesting in this topic and they will look for this specific category name. Therefore I would keep the current category name. We may extend the category text, but because we already have a detailed article on the topic I would then link to it for further details. Cacycle 20:42, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Whether or not the people applying the label consider it pejorative, the people on the receiving end definitely do. We don't use racial epithets to refer to other people when we're in public places, even if we don't consider the epithets pejorative and use them on a daily basis in the privacy of our homes. Misplaced Pages, too, is a public place, and if a term is known to have pejorative connotations, I don't think it should be used as a category. I'm not the only one who thinks this -- see the the July 2004 debate above.

I'm willing to agree to any non-pejorative category label. This will preserve the "utility value" of this category. For example: "Non-mainstream scientific theories".

But, echoing several contributions in the July 2004 debate above, what I really think is that this category should be done away with completely as an inherently POV, "in-your-face" label. It's like having a category "Nonsense".

Now some have objected that the term "pseudoscience" has a clear definition. Evidently they haven't read Demarcation problem. But even if we say, for the purposes of argument, that pseudoscience is any branch of science that doesn't rigorously apply the scientific method, is that definition clear to all? To me and, I daresay, alot of other people, many of whom may be casual readers of the pages "branded" with this category (people who are interested in the topics in question), it will simply appear that Misplaced Pages itself is against anything that dares to question the dominant paradigm. Why else would it need to label something with a derogatory word? This appearance (referred to in the discussion above as Misplaced Pages giving an imprimatur) belies the fact that the category represents only a certain fraction of Wikipedians who are pushing their own, anti-New-Age agenda.

The term science itself can't be defined as something that rigorously applies the scientific method. Such a definition would relegate a significant portion of mainstream scientific work or research to being "non-scientific" or "pseudoscientific". I quote from Demarcation problem: After more than a century of active dialogue, the question of what marks the boundary of science remains fundamentally unsettled. It follows that it is a matter of opinion whether or not a given theory is pseudoscience. Opinions are fine. But they have no business "masquerading" as Misplaced Pages categories, which are supposed to be straightforward and uncontroversial.

(( Aside: I just noticed that String theory has not been placed in this category. Why not? Are any of you willing to go there and put the pseudoscience label on it? Why isn't there a "Non-science" category? ))

So, to sum up, let's ask ourselves why a label is necessary at all. The only reason I can think of is that mainstream science feels threatened by something. And so it has instituted a system akin to kosher in foods. Something is kosher because the religious authorities say it is. That's the only criterion. Something is scientific because mainstream science says it is. "String theory is OK, but homeopathy -- over my dead body!" --Smithfarm 21:12, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Keep the article. We have greater POV problems than this one, go and crusade against those. WP:SPOV has certain virtues, and can be incorporated within NPOV. Deleting or renaming the category shuld be done thru WP:CFD. Dunc|☺ 22:29, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Again, I vote "keep," but still hold open the question of renaming. It is not too different from having a category like "racists" or "bigots." It is a not a self-assigned label and represents a purposefully derogative assignment of status. Put another way, it is a less extreme version than having a category like "race traitor" that Neo-Nazis would apply to whites in the Civil Rights Movement. Again, I'm not sure of the best way to deal with this aspect of things -- either we take a line which is completely within the POV of the mainstream scientific community (certainly not a standard we do on other articles, and certainly not NPOV), or we end up with something ridiculous (none of the alternatives proposed work for me). Or, perhaps, we just heavily edit the category description to emphasize that we are only using it because it is such a well known term for this. Hmm. I don't know for sure, I'll think about it a bit, though. (I don't think the label of pseudoscience is just a "matter of opinion", though -- I think it is a little more complex than that, and has to do with professionalization of disciplines and the internal content of the science itself, even though I think it is a sociological rather than a philosophical phenomena -- but that's not really the point, here). --Fastfission 00:54, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I want to point out that I don't think the term pseudoscience is necessarily always offensive to proponents of a subject labelled as such: the term does have a specific meaning and a specific relationship with the terms fringe science and protoscience. Still though, in response to the POV complexities and the above-mentioned problem of the Misplaced Pages "imprimatur," perhaps we could put an asterix in the title? I think " Pseudoscience* " as the category title at the bottom of pages, with explanation on the category page would mitigate these problems. (looks like this wouldn't be prevented by technical restrictions)--Nectarflowed 04:54, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What Nectarflowed said, seems to makes sense at first, adding something like an asterisk to the title, let's say "considered Pseudoscience". But then, I foud the category doesn't make sense, I mean see the terorism article. We don't have fuzzy categories here, and to put it in one pot for good science and another for bad science, is not really the idea of an open, free dictionary. We have the articles that should come to the point and say, "most people believe..." or something, see NPOV. I agree that some people might not find it offensive to let their field be called pseudoscience, but then its meaning is "something like science " Let's just put them all in the science bag, after all most people who did "pseudosience" did some kind of research, etc. It's largely political considerations that some fields are called "pseudo-". Of course something like phrenology was not "real" it didn't show anything, but it was a (kind-of) scientific approach. So, let's forget about the category. Ben talk contr 12:26, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

Balance

I'm going to add category:Belief to this category, since I think that some of the articles / subcategories fall into both partial science and belief realms. Hopefully, this will provide a balanced categorisation. Ian Cairns 20:34, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I think that's a wise idea. -Willmcw 21:07, 2 November 2005 (UTC)